So your brother just came on over from--$$No, he just left, he just--but see, the fre- I'm single, I was single at this time. William [HistoryMaker William Whitley] was married [to Kaysonia Whitley] with children. I, I can live, I knew I could live six months and, and the fee was six thousand dollars no way, I mean. I was quite, quite free and able to do and with, with that, he came along. 'Cause the fee was set could do what he had to do.$$Okay, so where did you set up your offices?$$It's, the first offices was at Lee Road and, and Chagrin Boulevard.$$It's in, in Cleveland [Ohio]?$$In Cl- Shaker Heights [Ohio], really but--$$Shaker Heights (simultaneous).$$--(simultaneous) Cleveland, yeah.$$All right, and now, now your sister Joyce [Joyce Whitley] is I guess involved at some point. Does she--$$Now, here's what happened, then there's the (unclear). Now, now we're architects. My sister majored in anthropology. Case Western Reserve [Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio]. She went to Fisk [Fisk University, Nashville, Tennessee] though, she went to Fisk. But, she smoked, so my mother [Beatrice Nivens Whitley] took her out of there. So, she finished at Reserve, anthropology. But, when she finishes school she says--and, and I don't know, happenstance, whatever. Urban, urban planning is a big deal at the University of Chicago [Chicago, Illinois]. Well, she somehow gets hooked up and take- goes to University of Chicago. Takes up planning city planning, all right. Comes out and she's working for a guy named Meltzer [Jack Meltzer] in Chicago [Illinois]. And as all of this comes together, I'm leave- I'm, we're going into architecture. She's getting trained as a city planner. The riots occur, the riots occur. Now when the riots occur all the federal funds go to solve that problem. But, to solve the problem you have to have a plan, you have to have a plan to solve the problem. Meltzer is, is right in position to do it. And he jumps on it immediately. Now, Joyce is in there with, with him and sees how it's done, and it's all over the country. I mean it's all over the, planning is all over the country. Joyce comes out city planner and works- experience with Meltzer every, every major city. Cleveland. So, all of a sudden she's getting work, Cleveland, Buffalo [New York], St. Louis [Missouri], Fort Wayne [Indiana], Cincinnati [Ohio], Chinatown in Washington D.C., New York City [New York, New York], New York City, Roosevelt Island, Roosevelt Island. I mean it was all over the place. But, when you get a planning, what comes after planning? Buildings. Now we're in a position, now we're in a position--we're open [as Whitley and Whitley, Architects and Planners; Whitley/Whitley Architects and Planners LLC], now this opportunity starts. Now, all over the, all these federal buildings I mean and I'm talking about multifamily, multifamily structures are going up in all the--where, where these plans are. So, then we're up and rolling then, I mean then, you know. We were knocking those things out, you know three or four a year, for many years. And the planning studies.$$So, so, so you get started in '63  but your, your sister gets involved in the late '60s [1960s] I guess--$$Yeah, it was the late '60s [1960s], '60s [1960s] (simultaneous).$$(Simultaneous) Around when the riots are happening--$$That's right, that's right, that's right.$$--and post riots.$$And when that start happening--$What were you interested in as a little kid?$$Small, real s- just playing and--oh I'll say one thing the Warren [Ohio] experience I think probably was the most memorable. But we, we lived at--Warren's a small, you know, small basically a rural kind of community. And we lived close to the edge of town. So, the woods and the trees and all of that was accessible to us, and oh we played that to death. We played that to death. I mean it was just, just pure freedom, I mean pure freedom. And we ran out the door, you ran, you ran out to woods. You could do anything you want out there, you know what I'm saying. And that's what we did. And, I, I would say maybe that's when one of the start of the creative side, anyway. During the war [World War II, WWII], we're playing war. And you could play war in the woods. You can dig, you can dig trenches, you can build, build huts. And then we, we were famous 'cause we--tree huts. We'd have 'em swing the tree. And they had a popular tree which was about a inch and half, two inch diameter. Oh you could cut down with one or two hacks, tie 'em together or nail them together. Tied 'em together was basically what we did. And you could make anything you wanted. And we had a, a cement, we found a cement mixer--hands. Boy we made that a boat. We both--and had a creek out there. You could go down the creek and the creek is maybe, say it's eight foot wide. But, but enough to float and you know, play with what you had to do. And you, we knew how to swim, so we weren't afraid of water. But, as I think back on it those experiences were very, very nice, I mean that was a--you were free to do what you wanted to do. And it's kind of of nice, but I felt I was living in the city, I didn't feel like I was living in the country. It was a city life but freedom at the edge. You could play baseball out there, you know build yourself a--it's funny. Yeah we built baseball diamonds, it's not like there was the baseball diamond out there. But, you could put that together and play. And I remember the people that--but that was basically a white community. We were in a, all those people I remember those were, were white kids.$$Okay.$$Yeah, and none those problems in the South. I mean no southern kind of problems at all. That was like, you know I remember Paul Picerelli [ph.] lived behind me. I could come down with those, those guys names, you know. The pretty girl was Shirley Novak [ph.], you know, what I'm saying. But, a good experience, and Warren was a very good experience. Then we came to the big city, Cleveland [Ohio]. Now, that's the big difference. There's a big difference there now.