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Paula McClain

Political science professor and public policy professor Paula D. McClain was born on January 3, 1950 in Louisville, Kentucky to Mabel T. Molock and Robert Landis McClain. After graduating from East Anchorage High School in Anchorage, Alaska in 1968, McClain enrolled at Howard University. In 1970, McClain served as a program coordinator for the National Coordinating Council on Drug Abuse Education and Information. She interned in 1971 with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission’s Office of Compliance where she briefed and researched violations of discrimination in the utility of industry. McClain received her B.A. degree in political science from Howard University in 1972. She went on to pursue graduate education at Howard University, finishing her M.A. degree in political science in 1974.

McClain then worked as a consultant for Adaptive Systems in Annapolis, Maryland and the Social Science Research Center at Howard University. By 1977, she had also completed her Ph.D. degree from Howard University, and began teaching at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee (UWM) in political science studies and African American Studies. McClain published her first book Alienation and Resistance: The Political Behavior of Afro-Canadians while at UWM. McClain received a postdoctoral fellowship and worked as a research associate in the Analysis Center at the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania in the 1980-81 academic year. She then began teaching at Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona in the School of Public Affairs. By 1990, McClain was serving as the acting director for the Doctorate of Public Administration Program. Also in 1990, McClain and Harold M. Rose released Race, Place, and Risk: Black Homicide in Urban America. The book was awarded the National Conference of Black Political Scientists' Best Book Award for a previously published book that has made a substantial and continuing contribution. In 1991, McClain joined the faculty at the University of Virginia as a professor of government and foreign affairs. She served as department chair from 1994-1997. In 1995, McClain released the first edition of Can We All Get Along? Racial and Ethnic Minorities in American Politics, which won the Gustavus Myers Center for the Study of Human Rights in North America Award for Outstanding Scholarship in the Subject of Intolerance.

In 2000 McClain joined the faculty at Duke University as a professor of political science and professor or public policy. In 2001, she began The Durham Pilot Project, examining racial attitudes among blacks, whites and Latinos in the South. While working on this project, she became the third woman and the first African American elected to serve as Chair of Academic Council at Duke University (2007-2009). Since 2004, she has served as co-director of the Center for the Study of Race, Ethnicity and Gender in the Social Sciences. She also is the director the Ralph Bunche Summer Institute, a program of the American Political Science Association that is hosted by Duke and funded by the National Science Foundation. McClain and her husband Paul Jacobson have two daughters, Kristina L. McClain-Jacobson Ragland and Jessica A. McClain-Jacobson.

Paula McClain was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on February 22, 2012.

Accession Number

A2012.069

Sex

Female

Interview Date

2/22/2012

Last Name

McClain

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Schools

East Anchorage High School

Colonel Young Elementary School

Colonel Johnson Middle School

Buena High School

University of Michigan

Howard University

First Name

Paula

Birth City, State, Country

Louisville

HM ID

MCC13

Favorite Season

Fall

State

Kentucky

Favorite Vacation Destination

Paris, France

Favorite Quote

None

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

North Carolina

Interview Description
Birth Date

1/3/1950

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Durham

Country

USA

Favorite Food

None

Short Description

Political science professor and public policy professor Paula McClain (1950 - ) was a professor at Duke University, where she founded the Center for the Study of Race, Ethnicity and Gender in the Social Sciences. Her publications included the popular textbook 'American Government in Black and White.'

Employment

Duke University

Arizona State University

University of Virginia

University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee

Howard Pollock Congressional Office

Birch Bayh Senatorial Office

National Coordinating Council on Drug Abuse

Equal Employment Opportunity Commission

Wharton School Analysis Center

Favorite Color

Purple

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Paula McClain's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Paula McClain lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Paula McClain describes her mother's family background, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Paula McClain describes her mother's family background, pt. 2

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Paula McClain describes her father's family background, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Paula McClain describes her father's family background, pt. 2

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Paula McClain talks about how her parents met

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Paula McClain talks about her paternal family's connection to Houston A. Baker, Jr.

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Paula McClain recalls her father's service in the U.S. Army

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Paula McClain describes her parents' personalities and who she takes after

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Paula McClain talks about her time in Anchorage, Alaska

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Paula McClain describes the sights, sounds and smells of her childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Paula McClain remembers her schooling

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Paula McClain remembers her early mentors

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Paula McClain describes the African American community in Anchorage, Alaska

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Paula McClain talks about her decision to attend Howard University

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Paula McClain talks about her decision to enroll at Howard University

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Paula McClain remembers the assassination of Revered Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Paula McClain talks about her family's religious affiliations

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Paula McClain recalls her internships on Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C., pt. 1

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Paula McClain remembers her professors at Howard University, pt. 1

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Paula McClain recalls her internships on Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C., pt. 2

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Paula McClain remembers her internship at the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Paula McClain remembers the visiting speakers at Howard University

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Paula McClain describes her experiences at Howard University in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Paula McClain remembers her professors at Howard University, pt. 2

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Paula McClain describes her decision to pursue a Ph.D. degree at Howard University

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Paula McClain describes her master's thesis

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Paula McClain talks about the black community in Canada

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Paula McClain recalls the politics of the early 1970s

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Paula McClain remembers the Watergate scandal

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Paula McClain talks about her graduation from Howard University

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Paula McClain recalls her position at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Paula McClain talks about her studies at the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Paula McClain describes her associate professorship at Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Paula McClain talks about her book, 'Race, Place, and Risk,' pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Paula McClain talks about her book, 'Race, Place, and Risk,' pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Paula McClain talks about the prevention of black on black crime

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Paula McClain describes her reasons for leaving Arizona State University

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Paula McClain talks about her publications at the University of Virginia

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Paula McClain talks about her membership in the American Political Science Association

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Paula McClain describes her experiences at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Paula McClain talks about the Durham Pilot Program

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Paula McClain talks about the Center for the Study of Race, Ethnicity and Gender in the Social Sciences

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Paula McClain talks about her book, 'American Government in Black and White,' pt. 1

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Paula McClain talks about her book, 'American Government in Black and White,' pt. 2

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Paula McClain talks about the history of democracy in Native American cultures

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - Paula McClain talks about her current research projects

Tape: 7 Story: 3 - Paula McClain describes her hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 7 Story: 4 - Paula McClain talks about the economic disparity within the African American community

Tape: 7 Story: 5 - Paula McClain reflects upon the status of black women in academia

Tape: 7 Story: 6 - Paula McClain reflects upon her legacy

Tape: 7 Story: 7 - Paula McClain reflects upon her life

Tape: 7 Story: 8 - Paula McClain talks about her family

Tape: 7 Story: 9 - Paula McClain shares her advice to women in academia

Tape: 7 Story: 10 - Paula McClain describes how she would like to be remembered

DASession

1$1

DATape

5$6

DAStory

4$5

DATitle
Paula McClain talks about her book, 'Race, Place, and Risk,' pt. 1
Paula McClain talks about the Center for the Study of Race, Ethnicity and Gender in the Social Sciences
Transcript
All right so, '89 [1989], let's see, okay with, with Harold Rose you released 'Race, Place, and Risk' (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) Yeah, 'And Risk: Black Homicide in Urban America' ['Race, Place, and Risk: Black Homicide in Urban America,' Paula D. McClain and Harold Rose].$$Okay$$It was the first, well what--among the first in depth studies of black on black homicide, and we used five or six different cities; it was Detroit [Michigan], St. Louis [Missouri], Houston [Texas], L.A. [Los Angeles, California], but there were six cities, I'm blanking on, St. Louis, did I say St. Louis? But the causes and the factors that contributed to what we were seeing at that point was an increase on black on black violence and we had a lot of different--Harold as a res- Harold is just a creative researcher. We started with a, with a sample of victims which we got by ordering data from public health departments in the cities, the study ran from 1960 through '85 [1985], I believe, so we had about twenty-five years' worth of data and we ordered death certificates based on the health departments names and numbers of who died, I mean there's a difference, we didn't use the FBI [Federal Bureau of Investigation] statistics because if, if you look at 'em you have, you come up with two different numbers because the FBI has statistics on everybody who died within the city, and we were only interested in residents and county health departments only keep the stats of resident deaths I mean in terms of the ones that they report. So by starting with the city or county health department, then ordering death certificates for all of the people and then identifying the black victims, I mean it was just a real lot of detective work to kind of get to, once we got the victims sample, then we were able to find out whether anyone was ever arrested for the homicide and if they were what the dep- disposition of the case was. And so we had victim data, we got, if we could identify the offender and if they were incarcerated we got interviews, there, I actually did a series of interviews in, it's coming back to me, Jackson, which is the women's prison up in Michigan. Then once we, you know, then got data on the offenders, we got school data on the victims, I mean it was, it was just a massive effort and, an incr- an incredible study that really kind of talked about the various factors of why some cities looked like they were high homicide cities in the aggregate like Atlanta [Georgia]. But basically in Atlanta most of the homicides were domestic, so unless you were in that particular household, your risk of being a homicide victim was a lot lower than in a place like St. Louis where it was mostly unknown and on the street. So we identified all of these differences in the rate of black homicide and the factors that contributed to it.$$Is there a generalization that, that can be extrapolated from that research that could characterize black on black crime in--?$$I don't think, given the fact that we found differences among cities that there's one generalization that one can identify. But, what our work it was it spawned a lot of other work, you know? And there's lots of people now, lots of scholars who have done more work on black homicide and I no longer do that, I think the last piece Harold and I wrote was an update in '95 [1995], I believe on the cities--$$Okay.$$--that we had looked at.$Well tell us about the Center for the Study of Race, Ethnicity and Gender in the Social Sciences (simultaneous)?$$(Simultaneous) Sciences. My colleague, Kerry Haynie [Kerry L. Haynie], and I are the founding directors of the center, it's part of the Social Science Research Institute. And the focus is race and then ethnicity, because Latinos are not considered a race they can be of any race, but the [U.S.] Census Bureau considers them an ethnic group as opposed to a race, but even within the Asian American population, we use that broad term but there are various ethnic groups, various different groupings within the Latino population and even increasingly among the black population in the United States. With immigration it's still primarily like 94 percent slave descendent, but there's this increasing proportion of the black population of the United States that are Caribbean or of various African origins. And so that's the race and ethnicity in terms of the research, the gender is the intersection of race and gender, in literature, sociology is a little bit better, but in political science or whatever, when you talk about women in politics, all the research is on white women, when we talk about race, ethnicity and politics and we're talking about elected officials who are black or Latino, it's mostly male, research on black women in politics in, in organization, Latino women just get dropped out. So the gender in our center is about this interaction for women of color within these groups. So that the, the issues related to white women are not central to our study of gender but it's the gender of women of color, women of color interacting because that's where there's just a paucity of research.$$Okay.$$And we have a number of graduate students that are fellows in the center, we have a post doc [postdoctoral fellowship], we just had our distinguished lecture which was Ed Ayers [Edward L. Ayers], who's a civil, who's a historian, he's president of the University of Richmond [Richmond, Virginia], but he gave us, his lecture was on February 10th because this is, this is like the 150th anniversary of the Civil War and running up to the Emancipation Proclamation, and one of the things that that Ed was saying is that we really shouldn't separate the beginning of the Civil War from this emancipation because from the very beginning blacks were emancipating themselves whenever they knew that federal troops or anything were close that they would, they would take off. So we think about the Emancipation Proclamation as being some beginning point when in reality--$$Um-hm.$$--it was all part of the Civil War, you know. So, and we've got a number of visiting scholars that, that come to spend time. We've had a graduate student from France who spent a year with us, 'cause France doesn't identify issues of race. They've got a lot of racial issues, but they don't collect racial data, they don't wanna talk about it, there's no courses. So she came over here for a year and took some courses and wrote her master's [degree] thesis when she was with us so.$$Okay so, so does the future seem bright for the center?$$I hope so, I mean, you know, you're always--we go through three year budget cycles and so my hope is that in 2013 we'll get another three year budget cycle, you know, but right now things are good.$$Now there is, there has been some talk in academia and some action about rolling back such centers and African American studies departments and women's studies even and that sort of thing, especially with the tightening of budgets and--$$Um-hm.$$--you know, so that's, that's not a problem at, at Duke [Duke University, Durham, North Carolina] I don't think at this time?$$I don't think right now.$$Yeah.$$I think our centers are strong, the Department of African and African American Studies here is quite strong, it's got some very, very important and very solid scholars. So I think that national trend has not affected Duke, you know, but there's always issues, you're always concerned about protecting and making sure that commitment to these things doesn't fall through, you know, the cracks at Duke. And we've got a very active black faculty organization, the Black Faculty Caucus that tries to stay on top of these issues.

Marvin Perry

Founder of the Black Board of Directors Project, Marvin Early Perry, was born on November 10, 1944, in Elmore City, Oklahoma. Perry earned his B.A. and M.S. degrees in economics from the University of Central Oklahoma and Oklahoma State University respectively. Shortly thereafter, Perry graduated from the American Bankers Association Commercial Lending School, beginning his professional career in banking.

In response to the vastly underrepresented amount of minorities on corporate boards, Perry founded the Black Board of Directors Project in Phoenix, Arizona in 1984. The project’s purpose is promoting the involvement of minorities in executive positions within corporate, nonprofit, and public policy making institutions at the state and national level. In the organization’s history, which spans over two decades, the Black Board of Directors Project has placed over 1,800 blacks and other minorities on various boards and commissions. By facilitating seminars and conferences centered on corporate board education, Perry hopes to empower members of Arizona’s black community by encouraging them to seek board membership on a corporate level. In doing so, local businesses and agencies will involve more minorities in their policy-making processes.

In 1995, Perry broadened his commitment to community service by becoming a founding board member on the Arizona State University College of Extended Education Dean’s Council. Perry aided the College of Extended Education for years in its mission to broaden access to quality education to all learners in Maricopa County and beyond. His leadership helped the college reach out to Arizona’s traditional and nontraditional learners through innovative locations, methods, curricula, schedules and technologies to meet their lifelong learning needs.

Perry was awarded for his dedicated service to higher education in 2002 when he was given a Distinguished Service Award from Arizona State University, and again in 2007 by receiving an honorary doctorate degree from the University of Advancing Technology. In 2008, Perry selected as the co-recipient of the Arizona State Bar of Arizona's Award of Appreciation.

Perry continues to expand his long history of civic involvement, including board service with the Arizona State Bar Association, the Hispanic Leadership Institute, the Arizona Civil Rights Advisory Board, the Valley of the Sun United Way, the Scottsdale Cultural Center, as well as a list of municipal and county committees and boards. Perry also serves as President of P.E. International, a Phoenix-based marketing and public relations firm.

Accession Number

A2007.209

Sex

Male

Interview Date

7/14/2007

Last Name

Perry

Maker Category
Schools

Averitt School

Katie School

Elmore City-Pernell High School

Oklahoma State University

University of Central Oklahoma

Oklahoma City University

First Name

Marvin

Birth City, State, Country

Elmore City

HM ID

PER03

Favorite Season

Spring

State

Oklahoma

Favorite Vacation Destination

San Diego, Santa Barbara, California

Favorite Quote

When The Going Gets Tough, The Tough Get Going.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Arizona

Interview Description
Birth Date

11/10/1944

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Phoenix

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Italian Food

Short Description

Banker and nonprofit chief executive Marvin Perry (1944 - ) was the founder of the Black Board of Directors Project in Phoenix, Arizona, whose purpose was to promote minority executive leadership in corporate, nonprofit and policy making institutions.

Employment

Federal Reserve Bank of Boston

Omaha National Bank

Arizona Bank

P.E. International

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Marvin Perry's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Marvin Perry lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Marvin Perry describes his mother's family background, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Marvin Perry describes his father's family background, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Marvin Perry describes his father's family background, pt. 2

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Marvin Perry describes his mother's family background, pt. 2

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Marvin Perry describes his earliest childhood memory

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Marvin Perry describes the sights, sounds and smells of his childhood

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Marvin Perry remembers the Averitt View School in Elmore City, Oklahoma

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Marvin Perry describes the community of Elmore City, Oklahoma

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Marvin Perry recalls the integration of the Katie School in Katie, Oklahoma

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Marvin Perry talks about the implementation of Brown v. Board of Education in the State of Oklahoma

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Marvin Perry remembers his teachers at Katie School in Katie, Oklahoma

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Marvin Perry talks about his early experiences of religion

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Marvin Perry talks about the integration of Elmore City High School in Elmore City, Oklahoma

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Marvin Perry remembers the teachers at Elmore City High School

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Marvin Perry describes his experiences at Elmore City High School

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Marvin Perry recalls his decision to move to Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Marvin Perry describes his decision to enroll at Oklahoma City University in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Marvin Perry talks about the segregation of Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Marvin Perry describes his decision to attend Central State College in Edmond, Oklahoma

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Marvin Perry remembers the assassinations of Medgar Evers and President John Fitzgerald Kennedy

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Marvin Perry talks about the assassination of Malcolm X

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Marvin Perry describes his experiences at Central State College in Edmonds, Oklahoma

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Marvin Perry recalls the assassination of Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Marvin Perry talks about his decision to attend graduate school at Oklahoma State University

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Marvin Perry remembers his influential professors

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Marvin Perry remembers studying under Richard Leftwich at Oklahoma State University

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Marvin Perry talks about his career at the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston in Boston, Massachusetts

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Marvin Perry describes how he came to work at the Omaha National Bank in Omaha, Nebraska

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Marvin Perry describes his role in the Midwest Executive Development Leadership Conference

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Marvin Perry talks about his presidency of the Mid-City Business and Professional Association, pt. 1

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Marvin Perry talks about his presidency of the Mid-City Business and Professional Association, pt. 2

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Marvin Perry recalls his election as president of the Mid-City Business and Professional Association

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Marvin Perry describes how he came to work for the Arizona Bank in Phoenix, Arizona

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Marvin Perry remembers his first day in Phoenix, Arizona

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Marvin Perry recalls his introduction to the African American community in Phoenix, Arizona

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Marvin Perry describes his experiences of racial discrimination at the Arizona Bank in Phoenix, Arizona

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Marvin Perry recalls filing an EEOC complaint against the Arizona Bank

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Marvin Perry talks about the Arizona Bank's investments in South Africa

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Marvin Perry recalls the outcome of his discrimination case against the Arizona Bank

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Marvin Perry remembers partnering with the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Marvin Perry talks about the Black Board of Directors Project

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Marvin Perry talks about his civic involvement

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Marvin Perry describes his hopes for the future of black business

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Marvin Perry reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Marvin Perry describes how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Marvin Perry shares his advice for aspiring businesspeople

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Marvin Perry narrates his photographs

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Marvin Perry talks about the Black Board of Directors Project
Marvin Perry talks about the integration of Elmore City High School in Elmore City, Oklahoma
Transcript
You've got a knack of networking you--$$Yeah (simultaneous).$$--(simultaneous) you've, you've learned how to network and how to put, to find out what's going on. So you started, you start something called the Black Board of Directors Project?$$Right, yeah.$$Tell us about that.$$Well, during the same time, I had talked to the bank [Arizona Bank, Phoenix, Arizona] about putting minority on their board, in which they did do, put a Hispanic on their board there named Ronnie Lopez. And, and I started talking about, "Hey, you know, more blacks--," this is something I had done in Omaha [Nebraska], and I started talking to black leaders about, you know, "this is something, we should do this, I was persona non grata so I'm not the person to do it," you know. Started talking about putting blacks on different boards and stuff. And finally a friend of mine who worked for a company called Greyhound [ph.] who was an attorney, he said, "Look, these people are not gonna do anything, if it's gonna happen you gonna have to do it yourself." So the first year we did it, and we brought, had a dinner where we brought in a guy named Charles Duncan [HistoryMaker Charles T. Duncan], which was an excellent choice 'cause Charles Duncan was on the board of Eastman Kodak [Eastman Kodak Company] and TRW [TRW, Inc.] and Procter and Gamble [Procter and Gamble Company] and like that. Gave a great presentation about corporate boards and stuff, so that was '84 [1984]. Then, you know, of course, the other thing which you saw to is there was a need for blacks not just on the corporate boards but also on other boards too where they're gonna make major impact. Plus, a person who normally serve on a corporate board is somebody who had done their tutelage on, on little boards, nonprofits, governmental boards, commissions, who is really known in the community and has risen to the top of their profession or business--$$Now, let me ask you this. Now you've had, you had had experience on boards?$$Yeah.$$Do you think that a lot of, a lot of the black, black professionals were unaware of the, of the power of sitting on a board?$$Very much so, very, very much so. Yeah, very much so. Now, the only thing they could understand now, that on corporate boards you got paid some money. When I, I wish I had never mentioned that early because that's about the only thing they, "Oh, I wanna be on this board because it, it, you know, I can get some money from it," you know. But no they, they were almost totally unaware of that.$$Who were some of the first people that you placed, Arizonians on boards or you helped get on boards?$$Well, you know, they, the first year what we did is went through and identified about thirty, it was kind of done more of a kind of a, a discussion piece about thirty people we profiled. And we sent that to different corporations and other people. One of the first people who served on a corporate government board was a lady called Janice Carson [ph.]. I remember that time, we got her on the board of Logan Developmental Corporation [sic. Logan Development Corporation, Surprise, Arizona], which make loans to a lot of small businesses, including minority businesses. So that was like in '84 [1984] we did that and then some others too. So we saw a need to continue that effort and stuff. And I always say I'm gonna do it for one more year, you know, (laughter) but one thing, you know, led to another. And then another thing too we saw that when we were dealing with a lot of the major nonprofits and government boards, and commission, and some of the people we were reaching out to really didn't have any idea of what a board was, excuse me, and what they're supposed to do so. We started doing a couple of things, one is bringing people in to teach them about what the roles and responsibilities were (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) Education.$$Yeah, education. And also one of the characteristics of a good board member is somebody who knows the community and are known in the community, so we started giving them a lot more visibility and stuff like that in the community and stuff (simultaneous).$$(Simultaneous) So far, so far what has been the placement rate since '84 [1984] when this--$$Eighty-four [1984]--$$'Til now.$$Well, the people we had in '84 [1984] was, a lot of them were already on different boards. Starting in '85 [1985] let's say, everybody who have participated in that, has been given an invitation to serve on a number of boards and most of them have accepted it, you know, to serve on different boards so.$$Would you have a number of approximately how many you may have--$$Placed? Yeah, our calculation would be now about sixteen to seventeen hundred placements. Now, keep in mind that's over this twenty-four year period. During that time, you know, there is gonna be rotation of the boards and stuff like that and there are gonna be some people who unfortunately are not with us anymore or some people left the state and like that so.$$Now, you--$$--we did that (unclear) (simultaneous)--$$--(simultaneous) you were very, you were very busy in placing these boards, in placing people on these boards--$$Uh-huh.$$--and identifying new Arizonians coming into the town you, you seem to have a knack, not just for placing but knowing who got to town?$$(Laughter).$$Can you explain that briefly?$$Yeah, well, I, I, you know, one of the things is that we get referrals from different employers and from previous members and just from people in general. And then, you know, as I circulate around to, I meet some people on our own and stuff like that so that has fed into it to, you know.$$So would, so would you just say it's, it's a matter of being out there?$$Part of it is being out there and if we see somebody that we think that is going to be beneficial, you know, can, can benefit from the organization, we're gonna go after them too, you know, we might see somebody in the Business Journal [Phoenix Business Journal] that they just been promoted to sit in this place that we don't know about or something that we look for. And one of the things we look for people, you know, who first of all they gotta have, you know, good character we're looking for, and not somebody we can do a FBI [Federal Bureau of Investigation] check on those, but people who have those (unclear) check too, but we have people who are gonna be able to handle confidential information and conduct themselves in a professional manner in meetings and stuff like that to add to the organization. But we scan the waterfront for, for good people.$So, now you, you get to Elmore high [Elmore City High School; Elmore City-Pernell High School, Elmore City, Oklahoma]--$$Uh-huh.$$--and there's more kids now I would imagine (simultaneous)?$$(Simultaneous) Yes, there was.$$And were there, was it still the same integrated feeling there at that school?$$I found it to be--to be honest, the way I could put it was a living hell.$$Okay. Let's talk about that (simultaneous).$$(Simultaneous) A living nightmare.$$Let's talk about it.$$Well--$$And, and before you do that, do you think the kids are getting older and, and their opinions are becoming more, more (unclear) just tell us why.$$No, I think it had more to do with the school, with the city itself because it had been I understand--a black family some years ago had tried to move in there and they chased 'em out, you know. And this was a, you know, blacks were not allowed to live in this town, yeah, at all. And at one time they said if you're black they wanted you gone before, you know, before the sun went down, you know, that was the kind of the philosophy there. So it was, I had, it was integrated in 1958, I think, nineteen fifty--yeah, no, it would have been integrated in 19--my brother graduated in '50 [1950], in '60 [1960], so and he, it was totally integrated in 1956, it was by three blacks, my brother, you know, Cleaven [Cleaven Perry], a sister, Nova [Nova Perry], and another guy we called Teny Kendrick, we called him, referred to him as Teny, Jr., Teny Kendrick. Those were the three that integrated the school. My brother immediately began to face, you know, the hostilities and stuff.$$What were some of those hostilities?$$Well, like when you walk to the store, you know whatever, they'd call you, nigger, coon, jigaboos, and names I could never think of, you know, (laughter) very creative names, black bastard, the way you think of. And like he was talking about he was walking to the store one day and this Coke [Coca-Cola] bottle came right by his face like that you know--no, it was a brick that came right by his face, you know. And he was a very respected and mild mannered person. Now, my sister, she didn't have many problems except for one guy that would really, you know, harass her. And the guy, Teny, Jr., he, you know, the, he was a rather big guy there too, you know, so they didn't take too much there. And he was older, so was my brother too, older than the people he was with, so it was difficult on them, but not as difficult, but it was very much a hostile environment they would call you--and then even if you had the white kids who wanted to associate with you, you know, the other ones would discourage them and like that.$$So you got there and it was still hostile?$$I came there two years later.$$And it was the same way?$$Very much so, very, and I had the added burden because of the fact that, whereas my brother was probably, Cleaven, he was like, when he came there he probably was fifteen, so he would have been older and bigger than a lot of people in the freshmen class. When I came there I was, I think the second youngest in the class and also very small. I was in, thirteen years old, I was weighing eighty-two pounds soaking wet (laughter) with my clothes on (laughter). So I was a real good target with so- one exception though, I did have a older brother, John [John Perry] was there, and John was two years older than I was and he, you know, he had grown up there too so, again this situation he was almost as big, if not as--larger than most of the people in the class there; and, you know, he got into some scuffles there with some folks and stuff I guess. So, as long as I was with those two, I, I felt pretty well protected, you know, there.