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Franklin A. Thomas

Foundation executive and lawyer Franklin A. Thomas was born on May 24, 1934 in Brooklyn, New York to James and Viola Thomas. He graduated from Franklin K. Lane High School in 1952, and attended Columbia University, where he played basketball, became the first African American to captain an Ivy League basketball team, and was named the league’s most valuable player in 1955 and 1956. Thomas earned his B.A. degree from Columbia University in 1956 and went on to earn his L.L.B. degree from Columbia Law School in 1963.

After earning his B.A. degree, Thomas joined the U.S. Air Force as a strategic air command navigator, where he served as captain from 1956 to 1960. In 1964, he was admitted to the New York State Bar and began his legal career as an attorney at the Federal Housing and Home Finance Agency’s New York office. During the same year, Thomas served as Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York. From 1965 to 1967, he served as deputy police commissioner in charge of legal matters for the New York City Police Department, where he established the Civilian Complaint Review Board. From 1967 to 1977, Thomas served as president and chief executive officer for the Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation, and was credited with raising approximately $63 million in public and private funds, and serving in the forefront of community redevelopment efforts. In 1977, Thomas resumed his private legal practice, until 1979, when he was selected to serve as the first African American president of the Ford Foundation, where he served until 1996.

Thomas served as the chairman of the Rockefeller Foundation-funded Study Commission on U.S. Policy Toward South Africa from 1979 to 1981, and produced the comprehensive, groundbreaking report on apartheid, Time Running Out. He went on to serve as a member of the U.S. Secretary of State’s Advisory Committee on South Africa from 1985 to 1987.

Thomas served as chairman of the Secretary of State’s Advisory Committee on South Africa, the Study Commission on United States Policy Toward Southern Africa, and the September 11th Fund. He has also served on the board of directors for the Aluminum Company of America, Avaya, CBS Inc., Cummins Engine Co., Inc., Citicorp/Citibank, and Lucent Technologies. In 2005, Thomas founded the TFF Study Group, a nonprofit organization dedicated to development in South Africa in 2005.

Thomas is the recipient of numerous awards, including: The Lyndon Baines Johnson Award for “Contributions to the Betterment of Urban Life,” the John Jay and Alexander Hamilton Awards from Columbia College, and Columbia Law School’s James Kent Medal for distinguished professional achievement. He is also the recipient of Columbia University’s Medal of Excellence. He has been granted honorary degrees from Bank Street College, Columbia University, Fordham University, New School University, Pace University, Pratt University and Yale University. In 2003, Thomas was named one of four “kingmakers” in corporate America by Fortune magazine.

Franklin A. Thomas was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on March 28, 2017.

Accession Number

A2017.088

Sex

Male

Interview Date

04/26/2017 |and| 06/28/2017

Last Name

Thomas

Maker Category
Middle Name

A.

Schools

Franklin K. Lane High School

Columbia University

J.H.S. 33 Mark Hopkins Junior High School

P.S. 44 Marcus Garvey Elementary School

Columbia Law School

First Name

Franklin

Birth City, State, Country

Brooklyn

HM ID

THO26

Favorite Season

Fall, Summer

State

New York

Favorite Vacation Destination

Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts

Favorite Quote

How Are You?

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

New York

Birth Date

5/27/1934

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

New York

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Chicken And Rice

Short Description

Foundation executive and lawyer Franklin A. Thomas (1934 - ) was the first African American president of the Ford Foundation, after serving as the president and CEO of the Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation.

Employment

Ford Foundation

Faucus and Baron

U.S. Air Force

Housing and Home Finance Agency

U.S. Attorney's Office, Southern District of New York

New York City Police Department

Civilian Complain Review Board

Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Franklin A. Thomas narrates his photographs, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Franklin A. Thomas narrates his photographs, pt. 2

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Slating of Franklin A. Thomas' interview, session 1

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Franklin A. Thomas lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about his parents' migration to New York City

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Franklin A. Thomas lists his siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers the drum and bugle corps at the Concord Baptist Church in Brooklyn, New York

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls his childhood activities

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Franklin A. Thomas describes the sights, sounds and smells of his childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers the gang activity in Brooklyn, New York

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about his interactions with gangs in New York City

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his mother's influence

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls an altercation between his mother and her boarders

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers his maternal uncle

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls lessons from his mother

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his experiences at J.H.S. 33 in Brooklyn, New York

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about his early education

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his high school basketball career

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his summer position at an architectural firm

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his experiences at Columbia University in New York City

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers his coursework at Columbia University

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls his challenges at Columbia University

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Franklin A. Thomas reflects upon his time at Columbia University

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls his NAACP activities at Columbia University

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his experiences on the basketball team at Columbia University

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about his perception of racism

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his service in the U.S. Air Force

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his role in the Strategic Air Command

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about his basketball records at Columbia University

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about his mother's emphasis on self-determination

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers his older sisters

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls his mother's emphasis on education

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about his travels with the U.S. Air Force

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls how he became a navigator in the U.S. Air Force

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his decision to attend Columbia Law School in New York City

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his experiences at Columbia Law School

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls being hired at the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers prosecuting a domestic terrorism case, pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers prosecuting a domestic terrorism case, pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Franklin A. Thomas describes how he became deputy police commissioner of New York City

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers New York City Mayor John Lindsay

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about the Civilian Complaint Review Board of the New York City Police Department, pt. 1

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about the Civilian Complaint Review Board of the New York City Police Department, pt. 2

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls the corruption in the New York City Police Department

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about his relationship with the Harlem Clubhouse

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers Earl G. Graves, Sr.

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Franklin A. Thomas describes the creation of the Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls becoming president of the Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation, pt. 1

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls becoming president of the Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation, pt. 2

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about the leaders of the Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers the Community Home Improvement Program

Tape: 7 Story: 3 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls the problems in the Bedford-Stuyvesant neighborhood of Brooklyn, New York

Tape: 7 Story: 4 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his challenges at the Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation

Tape: 7 Story: 5 - Franklin A. Thomas describes the gentrification of the Bedford-Stuyvesant neighborhood of Brooklyn, New York

Tape: 7 Story: 6 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about his legacy at the Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation

Tape: 7 Story: 7 - Franklin A. Thomas describes the financial success of the Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation

Tape: 7 Story: 8 - Franklin A. Thomas reflects upon his time at the Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation

Tape: 7 Story: 9 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his relationship with Vernon E. Jordan, Jr., pt. 1

Tape: 7 Story: 10 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his relationship with Vernon E. Jordan, Jr., pt. 2

Tape: 8 Story: 1 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers meeting John Hay Whitney

Tape: 8 Story: 2 - Franklin A. Thomas describes the Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation's cable television venture

Tape: 8 Story: 3 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about his wife, Kate Roosevelt Whitney

Tape: 8 Story: 4 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his board memberships

Tape: 8 Story: 5 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls how he became the president of the Ford Foundation

Tape: 8 Story: 6 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about his corporate board memberships

Tape: 8 Story: 7 - Franklin A. Thomas reflects upon his experience as an African American in Corporate America

Tape: 9 Story: 1 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls his tenure on the board of Citibank, N.A.

Tape: 9 Story: 2 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers his invitation to the board of Citibank, N.A.

Tape: 9 Story: 3 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his transition to the Ford Foundation, pt. 1

Tape: 9 Story: 4 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his transition to the Ford Foundation, pt. 2

Tape: 9 Story: 5 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers his tenure at the Ford Foundation, pt. 1

Tape: 9 Story: 6 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers his tenure at the Ford Foundation, pt. 2

Tape: 9 Story: 7 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about his successor at the Ford Foundation

Tape: 9 Story: 8 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his changes to the Ford Foundation, pt. 1

Tape: 9 Story: 9 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his changes to the Ford Foundation, pt. 2

Tape: 10 Story: 1 - Franklin A. Thomas lists his charitable board memberships

Tape: 11 Story: 1 - Slating of Franklin A. Thomas' interview, session 2

Tape: 11 Story: 2 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers his basketball teammate, Albert Vann

Tape: 11 Story: 3 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his decision to attend Columbia University

Tape: 11 Story: 4 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about the importance of education

Tape: 11 Story: 5 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers the student protests at Columbia University

Tape: 11 Story: 6 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls the student protests on South Africa

Tape: 11 Story: 7 - Franklin A. Thomas describes the black community at Columbia University

Tape: 11 Story: 8 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his mother's lessons about racial discrimination

Tape: 12 Story: 1 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers Robert M. Morgenthau

Tape: 12 Story: 2 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers the conspiracy to bomb the Statue of Liberty

Tape: 12 Story: 3 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about mandatory minimum sentences

Tape: 12 Story: 4 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his decision to leave the U.S. attorney's office

Tape: 12 Story: 5 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers Police Commissioner Howard R. Leary

Tape: 12 Story: 6 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about Robert F. Kennedy's commitment to the Bedford-Stuyvesant neighborhood of Brooklyn, New York

Tape: 12 Story: 7 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his early involvement with the Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation

Tape: 12 Story: 8 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about the rising property values in the Bedford-Stuyvesant neighborhood of Brooklyn, New York

Tape: 13 Story: 1 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls the early leaders of the Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation

Tape: 13 Story: 2 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about his start at the Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation

Tape: 13 Story: 3 - Franklin A. Thomas describes the Bedford-Stuyvesant Development and Services Corporation

Tape: 13 Story: 4 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers dissolving the Bedford-Stuyvesant Development and Services Corporation

Tape: 13 Story: 5 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers John Doar

Tape: 13 Story: 6 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers the staff of the Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation

Tape: 13 Story: 7 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his role on the Knapp Commission

Tape: 13 Story: 8 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about the Knapp Commission

Tape: 14 Story: 1 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about the history of Bedford-Stuyvesant in Brooklyn, New York

Tape: 14 Story: 2 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls his early interactions with the Ford Foundation

Tape: 14 Story: 3 - Franklin A. Thomas describes the Ford Foundation funding of the Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation

Tape: 14 Story: 4 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls how he met J. Irwin Miller and Henry Schacht

Tape: 14 Story: 5 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation's architectural investments

Tape: 14 Story: 6 - Franklin A. Thomas reflects upon the success of the Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation

Tape: 14 Story: 7 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about his family

Tape: 14 Story: 8 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers the development of Continental Cablevision, Inc.

Tape: 14 Story: 9 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about his relationship with the Whitney family

Tape: 15 Story: 1 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about John Hay Whitney's philanthropy

Tape: 15 Story: 2 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers meeting Kate Roosevelt Whitney

Tape: 15 Story: 3 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers interviewing for the presidency of the Ford Foundation

Tape: 15 Story: 4 - Franklin A. Thomas describes the Ford Foundation's financial problems

Tape: 15 Story: 5 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about his relationship with President James Earl "Jimmy" Carter, Jr.

Tape: 15 Story: 6 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers McGeorge Bundy

Tape: 15 Story: 7 - Franklin A. Thomas describes the leadership of the Ford Foundation, pt. 1

Tape: 15 Story: 8 - Franklin A. Thomas describes the leadership of the Ford Foundations, pt. 2

Tape: 16 Story: 1 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his assessment of the Ford Foundation's operations

Tape: 16 Story: 2 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about his changes to the Ford Foundation

Tape: 16 Story: 3 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers his interview with The New York Times

Tape: 16 Story: 4 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about the Ford Foundation's philanthropic work

Tape: 16 Story: 5 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls his assessment of the Ford Foundation's funding efforts

Tape: 16 Story: 6 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about his development of the Ford Foundation

Tape: 16 Story: 7 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about his relationship with Vernon E. Jordan, Jr.

Tape: 16 Story: 8 - Franklin A. Thomas reflects upon the experiences that led him to the Ford Foundation

Tape: 16 Story: 9 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers Mary Griggs Jordan

Tape: 17 Story: 1 - Franklin A. Thomas describes the 'Time Running Out' report, pt. 1

Tape: 17 Story: 2 - Franklin A. Thomas describes the 'Time Running Out' report, pt. 2

Tape: 17 Story: 3 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers meeting Nelson Mandela

Tape: 17 Story: 4 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls Nelson Mandela and F.W. de Klerk's visit to the United States, pt. 1

Tape: 17 Story: 5 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls Nelson Mandela and F.W. de Klerk's visit to the United States, pt. 2

Tape: 17 Story: 6 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls meeting with F. W. de Klerk upon Nelson Mandela's release

Tape: 17 Story: 7 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers Nelson Mandela's release from prison

Tape: 17 Story: 8 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his involvement with South Africa's government, pt. 1

Tape: 17 Story: 9 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his involvement with South Africa's government, pt. 2

Tape: 17 Story: 10 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his mentorship of South African lawyers

Tape: 17 Story: 11 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about his relationship with Nelson Mandela

Tape: 17 Story: 12 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about the Constitutional Court of South Africa

Tape: 17 Story: 13 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers Albie Sachs and Arthur Chaskalson

Tape: 17 Story: 14 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about Nelson Mandela's wives

Tape: 17 Story: 15 - Franklin A. Thomas remembers his advice to Nelson Mandela

Tape: 17 Story: 16 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about the life of Nelson Mandela

Tape: 17 Story: 17 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about the African National Congress

Tape: 17 Story: 18 - Franklin A. Thomas reflects upon the international reputation of the United States

Tape: 17 Story: 19 - Franklin A. Thomas recalls his chairmanship of the September 11th Fund

Tape: 17 Story: 20 - Franklin A. Thomas talks about his marriage to Kate Roosevelt Whitney

Tape: 17 Story: 21 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his wife, Kate Roosevelt Whitney

Tape: 17 Story: 22 - Franklin A. Thomas reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 17 Story: 23 - Franklin A. Thomas describes his concerns for the African American community

Tape: 17 Story: 24 - Franklin A. Thomas describes how he would like to be remembered

DASession

2$2

DATape

12$16

DAStory

7$2

DATitle
Franklin A. Thomas describes his early involvement with the Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation
Franklin A. Thomas talks about his changes to the Ford Foundation
Transcript
And it's during that period that I get a call from the senator's office, and Earl Graves [HistoryMaker Earl G. Graves, Sr.], who's then working for the senator, must have mentioned my name to him; he had no other--I don't know what other sources there were, but certainly I suspect Earl was among them. And I get a call and they--I go and meet with the, the senator, and he explains what his vision is and what he's assembled up to that point, and that he's trying to work with these different groups in Bedford-Stuyvesant [Brooklyn, New York] and they need someone who can handle all of that and be, at the same time, accessible to the business group. And, for some reason, it kind of strikes me as something that--unplanned on my part, but maybe I ought to try and be helpful. So, I--I think I told you this story--I go to the meeting with the local people, and Elsie Richardson among them, and others who later become great friends, but at that point--I mean the beginning is, "What makes you think you're qualified to do what needs to be done here?" I mean that's the opening wedge for this meeting (laughter). And so we have a lengthy conversation, and I go back to Kennedy [Robert F. Kennedy] and his assembled group and say, "You know, I think it's an interesting idea. I don't think I'm the person that the community would seek to oversee this. And I say that be- not as any knock on me, but because, in my opinion, they have someone in mind who they would like to be in that position--someone they know and have worked with in the past, and who has some credentials," et cetera. So that's my impression from my meeting that I relate to the senator, and he says, "You know I, I know but that--we, we know of that person, and we've done a check there, and it's a well intentioned idea, but he's not the person that can lead this, so would you please not withdraw yourself from this while we search to see if we can find a person of--that's acceptable to both parties?" So, I say, "Okay." I'm as interested in seeing something done well as anyone. So I agree to spend some time with the local folk as they go through looking at what had been done in a, a couple of other cities--where Ed Logue [Edward J. Logue] had worked, and people whom Kennedy had brought into Bedford-Stuyvesant [Bedford-Stuyvesant Restoration Corporation, New York, New York], and I.M. Pei had brought in, and others had been brought in.$$I.M. Pei, who is the architect, right?$$He's the architect, yeah.$$Um-hm.$$And so--anyway, a few months go by; I--I've got my own job I'm working on, but I spend time with them, and they finally double back and say, "Well, you're not our first choice but unless you're willing to do this, it's probably not gonna happen." And the Kennedy people are saying basically the same thing, and that the person the local group seemed more interested in is not someone that the business group thinks can do the job, so I said, "Okay," I would do it for two years to get it started, and so I did. And I spent the next ten years there, and I'm happy to say it's having its fiftieth anniversary upcoming, and some of the same people are happily still there. Most have passed on, but there's another generation there, and yeah, we're all pretty proud of what's happened--yeah. And Al Vann [Albert Vann] still lives there, Gil Scott [Gilbert L. Scott] still lives there; a number of the people that, you know, I grew up with are there and involved with what's going on.$So I held meetings with the staff [of the Ford Foundation, New York, New York] in all the different areas and laid out where we were, where we had been, what had happened in the ensuing ten or twelve years, what trajectory we were on, and what that could mean going forward. So either we're going to fix things while we still have the ability to do that, with the hope that we can reposition it so it can be around in perpetuity. And that means that some who think they have a lifetime arrangement are gonna be disappointed because we're going to trim the staff and, (makes noise). So, anyway, we did all that.$$You did a lot of trimming of staff.$$Yeah.$$This was--it was, I think, what--a quarter of the staff?$$Yeah (simultaneous).$$(Simultaneous) Like over a hundred--it was over a hundred and something positions.$$Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was a lot, it was a lot. And everybody got--I mean they're all disappointed obviously, but everybody got treated as well as you could expect to be treated; you're given three or four years of coverage, but it's the end. So I go to The New York Times, at their invitation--$$After some of this has happened.$$After some of this has happened.$$And this is--this is the--but it took--so it--you're saying within the year of stu- after that year of study this is when you make the decision now?$$Yeah.$$How long does it take to get board alignment? That's a--$$I'd say about three years--to get it all sorted, and then I, I double back to The New York Times, at their invitation, and they, they start by saying to me--I've--never forget (laughter) the conversation. "You know it's, it's been a while since we last spoke." He said, "Oh, I would like to know what's, what's happened, you know, since then," and all that. And so we're--I give them a, a, a rundown, a generalized rundown of what we've done and where we then were financially, and how I saw the future and, you know, their, their response was, "You know, well, you know, it's obvious that place needed to be restructured, (mumbling)." And so I say back to them, "You mean now that I've survived you, what I did was obvious, is that it?" "No, I didn't mean that." "Oh, you guys are just so full of shit, you know--stop it!" You know. But I, I knew the, the then head of the newspaper from my Columbia [Columbia University, New York, New York] days; we'd both been trustees at Columbia, and so I was pretty relaxed with, with--I wasn't angry at all; I'm just saying (laughter), you know, "Now that I've survived you, you tell me what I did was obvious."$$Well, because they had--I remember reading the one article where they were, you know, talking about you being sequestered behind--$$Yeah, yeah.$$--and then--well, I--you let go like some key people at the beginning, but you had to get your team in place, too (simultaneous).$$(Simultaneous) That's right, that's right. Well, they were--$$And Harold Howe [Harold Howe II] was one of--but--$$They were all angry when they left.