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Elsie Rumford

Suicidologist Elsie R. Rumford was born in Berkeley, California, on January 15, 1945; her mother, Elsie R. Carrington Rumford, was a teacher in Berkeley, and her father, pharmacist William Byron Rumford, was the first African American elected official in northern California. Attending Longfellow Elementary School, Burbank Junior High School and Berkeley High School, Rumsford earned her B.A. degree in Spanish and sociology from San Francisco State University in 1967, and her M.S.W. degree from the University of California at Los Angeles in 1973.

Rumford’s graduate thesis on the rising black suicide rate challenged popular thinking on the subject. After speaking before the Charles R. Drew Post Graduate Medical School, Martin Luther King Hospital, and the Suicide Prevention Center of Los Angeles in 1974, Rumford presented to the California State Senate Subcommittee on Medical Education and Health Needs in support of SB1814, the Suicide Prevention Act of 1974. Rumford appeared on many television and radio talk shows to discuss black suicides and worked as a script consultant to a suicide-related episode of The Jeffersons in 1976. Rumford worked as a clinical social worker for the Dignity Center, a Los Angeles Suicide Prevention Center program, from 1974 to 1975, and El Nido Services from 1976 to 1981. From 1985 to 1988, Rumford was a school-based counselor for the Carson Child Guidance Partnership Program for the Los Angeles Unified School District (LAUSD), and from 1988 to 1996 she was their outreach coordinator. After1997 Rumford began working as a team leader/DIS Counselor at the Los Angeles Unified School District’s School Mental Health.

A member of the American Association of Suicidology; the National Association of Black Social Workers; and the National Association of Social Workers, Rumsford received the Carson Coordinating Council’s Outstanding Service Award in 1996. Rumford, who had three sons, remained a resident of Los Angeles.

Elsie Rumford was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on April 2, 2005.

Accession Number

A2005.095

Sex

Female

Interview Date

4/2/2005

Last Name

Rumford

Marital Status

Divorced

Schools

Berkeley High School

Burbank Junior High School

Longfellow Middle School

University of California, Berkeley

University of California, Los Angeles

San Francisco State University

Howard University

First Name

Elsie

Birth City, State, Country

Berkeley

HM ID

RUM01

Favorite Season

Summer

State

California

Favorite Vacation Destination

Palm Springs, California; Jamaica

Favorite Quote

Don't Count Your Chickens Before They're Hatched.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

California

Interview Description
Birth Date

1/15/1945

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Los Angeles

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Gumbo

Short Description

Suicidologist and school social work coordinator Elsie Rumford (1945 - ) presented to the California State Senate Subcommittee on Medical Education and Health Needs in support of SB1814, the Suicide Prevention Act of 1974. Rumford worked with several public health and suicide prevention organizations to help raise awareness about the rising prevalence of suicide within the African American community.

Employment

Los Angeles Unified School District

Suicide Prevention Center

El Nido Services

State of California Dept. of Employment

City of Oakland, California

Favorite Color

Light Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Elsie Rumford's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Elsie Rumford lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Elsie Rumford describes her mother's family background, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Elsie Rumford describes her mother's family background, pt. 2

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Elsie Rumford talks about her maternal grandparents and her grandmother's life in Oakland, California

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Elsie Rumford talks about her maternal family's professional and educational achievements

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Elsie Rumford describes her father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Elsie Rumford describes how her parents met and married

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Elsie Rumford talks about her father's role as a civil rights advocate and his election as the first black assemblyman in Northern California

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Elsie Rumford talks about her father's career as a pharmacist and his election to the California State Assembly in 1948

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Elsie Rumford describes her parents' personalities and how she resembles them, pt. 1

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Elsie Rumford describes her parents' personalities and how she resembles them, pt. 2

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Elsie Rumford talks about her father's achievements as one of the first African American pharmacists in the San Francisco Bay Area in California

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Elsie Rumford describes the sights, sounds and smells of growing up in Berkeley, California

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Elsie Rumford talks about her brothers

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Elsie Rumford talks about her family's involvement with First AME Church in Oakland, California

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Elsie Rumford recalls the music, movies and television shows she enjoyed while growing up

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Elsie Rumford talks about her father's civil rights involvement, pt. 1

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Elsie Rumford talks about her father's service civil rights involvement, pt. 2

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Elsie Rumford talks about her father's interest in public health

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Elsie Rumford recalls her experience at Longfellow Elementary School in Berkeley, California and the ethnic make-up of her childhood neighborhood

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Elsie Rumford explains why her mother and her maternal aunts are her role models

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Elsie Rumford talks about attending Burbank Junior High School in Berkeley, California

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Elsie Rumford remembers attending Berkeley High School in Berkeley, California

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Elsie Rumford discusses her interest in sociology and Spanish

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Elsie Rumford talks about the rise of the black power movement in Berkeley, California in the 1960s

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Elsie Rumford remembers the rise of the Black Panther Party in Northern California in the 1960s

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Elsie Rumford talks about her coursework in sociology at San Francisco State College in San Francisco, California

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Elsie Rumford recalls various cultural movements in the San Francisco Bay Area of California in the 1960s

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Elsie Rumford recalls her experience reporting discrimination while working for the State of California, department of employment

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Elsie Rumford talks about her brief employment with the City of Oakland, California

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Elsie Rumford remembers her graduate school experiences

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Elsie Rumford talks about her master's thesis on black suicide, pt. 1

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Elsie Rumford talks about her master's thesis on black suicide, pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Elsie Rumford talks about the findings of her master's degree thesis on suicide in the black community

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Elsie Rumford talks about the recognition that she received for her master's thesis on suicide in the black community

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Elsie Rumford talks about her social work career in Los Angeles, California

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Elsie Rumford reflects upon the challenges of parenting

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Elsie Rumford talks about helping parents whose children are diagnosed with attention deficit disorder

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Elsie Rumford reflects upon her role as a psychiatric social worker in the Los Angeles Unified School District

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Elsie Rumford describes her concerns for the African American community

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Elsie Rumford reflects upon her life and career

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Elsie Rumford reflects upon her legacy

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - Elsie Rumford talks about her sons' and her parents' responses to her career as a social worker

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Elsie Rumford reflects upon her parents' personal and professional success and the values they instilled in her

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Elsie Rumford describes how she would like to be remembered

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Elsie Rumford narrates her photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$4

DAStory

1$4

DATitle
Elsie Rumford talks about her father's career as a pharmacist and his election to the California State Assembly in 1948
Elsie Rumford recalls her experience reporting discrimination while working for the State of California, department of employment
Transcript
(Simultaneous) Tell us about the Appomattox Club [Oakland, California]. Let's see, D.G. Gibson was one of the men that worked with your father [William Byron Rumford] (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) Oh yes, D.G. Gibson, Frances Albrier. There were so many people that, let's see, Evelio Grillo is still around.$$Evelio Grillo?$$Yeah.$$How do you spell that (laughter)?$$E-V-E-L-I-O.$$Evelio, okay.$$Evelio Grillo, G-R-I-L-L-O. As a matter of fact, I think he wrote the foreword, didn't he write the foreword for this book ['William Byron Rumford, The Life and Public Services of a California Legislator: A Biography,' Lawrence P. Crouchett]? But he--.$$Now, is he an African American?$$Well, you know, I think that, you know I can't remember if it was Puerto Rican or Cuban descent, but he certainly identified and I don't know, you know, he was a light brown person and-- (laughter).$$He probably, I don't know, I'm thinking a lot of times, you know, anybody brown was discriminated against, you know, in terms of if you weren't white, you know, so--they tried to break down these covenants that restricted blacks from (unclear)--.$$Right, right, and one of the main things they were trying to do is to get somebody to run for office, and Tom [L.] Berkley, who died, let's see, he died in 2001, but he was major, major in the [San Francisco] Bay Area [California] as well. He's an attorney and he was part of that group. There was, they used to meet and get together to try to see how they could break down the barriers, and they were considering Tom Berkley because, you know, he had been very active but then he declined to run for office, this assembly seat that was vacant, and so my aunt, my mother's [Elsie Carrington Rumford] sister, who was, actually she ended up being a teacher in Berkeley [California], she wasn't a teacher at the time, but she nominated my father and he ran for the seat and he won the seat.$$What year is this when he wins the seat?$$He--1948. He was elected into the [California State] Assembly.$$Okay.$$He was a pharmacist, I should mention too. He was a pharmacist and had a drug store in Berkeley and I think that's real important because while he was an assemblyman, he never gave up his career as a pharmacist. When he was in Sacramento [California], he was working the drug store (laughter).$$What was the name of his drug store?$$Rumford Pharmacy. (Laughter) And it's still there, but they changed it to a health center and they named it after him. The building is still there. But actually, when he first opened, what happened he worked as a pharmacist for someone else in the early years, and then they retired and he bought the drug store from them, and then several years later, I guess 1950, he, it was a small store so he moved across the street and had a much bigger drug store, and that was where he could be found. (Laughter) That's where you found your assemblyman, in the drug store. And people would come down, you know, you want to talk to your assemblyperson, you just go to the drug store.$$Okay. And so you were three years old when he was elected?$$See, that's it. I was three years old when he was elected, so all of my life that, all my memory from the time I was three to the time I was a young adult in '66 [1966], he was in the assembly, and my whole recollection of him was as an assemblyman.$When you graduated from San Francisco State [College; San Francisco State University, San Francisco, California], in (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) San Francisco State. January '67 [1967].$$--in January '67 [1967], okay, and you went to Howard [University, Washington, D.C.] for grad school?$$Well, no, actually I worked--.$$You worked for the City--.$$I worked for the City of Oakland--I worked for the California state--State of California for a while, and the department of employment, where I ran across discrimination, and was naive enough to be surprised that employers were requesting white only, and I reported it to my--I was a minority rep [representative] and reported it to my minority rep boss who was based out of San Francisco [California], and they had a big investigation of the City of Oakland [California] department of employment and confiscated files and it was a real big thing, a real big thing. And, but, I think, I always look back on that now and I think, oh, my gosh, that was because I grew up in that whole civil rights thing where, you know, this is wrong, you can't do--and I didn't even try to smoothly talk to my supervisor and say well, you know, can we do something about--I was like indignant and youthful, you know, right out of college.$$That is something to be indignant about, if you look back at it. They've been doing that since they started it.$$But my boss later told me, my local boss in Oakland said, "[HistoryMaker] Elsie [Rumford], why didn't you come to me and say something to me?" I went to the minority employment rep in San Francisco, who was also my boss in a way, but I guess they wanted to handle it in house, and my minority employment rep boss in San Francisco reported to Sacramento [California]. I mean, it was just a problem to file. It was a big deal and my, the chief of the department of employment in Oakland ended up resigning early and I was so naive I went to his retirement dinner, you know, 'cuz I was like, I don't know, stuff just kinda, I didn't really see how I think it affected so much in my tunnel vision of like wrong, that's it, they shouldn't do this, and you know--.$$Well, you know that's by the same token they should have known it was wrong.$$Well, they did.$$It's a policy that was wrong from the time of its inception until we showed up and when we showed up it should have been a signal, hey, maybe we should change some of this before somebody blows a whistle (laughter).$$Like me. And then I was kind of, at that point, I was pretty much untouchable because of my dad [William Byron Rumford], you know, although I wasn't doing it for--it was wrong. People stopped speaking to me. Oh, my gosh. There was a lot of pressure. It was a really difficult time. Even my mother [Elsie Carrington Rumford] said something to me. She said, you know--these are peoples' livelihoods. They're gonna have to--you know, she was worried people were gonna get fired and what they might do to me. You be careful, is what she said.$$But is there really an unrisky way to create a social change of that kind?$$Well, I don't know. In hind sight, you know, maybe I could have gone to the local Oakland people and tried to work it out, but--$$You know, the usual mantra is be patient.$$No, but I wasn't--and the only thing, the young people, there were about three or four young people who worked in the office, it was a big office, and they kinda stuck with me through it, but it was, it was difficult. It was some real, real difficult times. I ended up moving to a different office, but I wasn't gonna move out till I was ready. They didn't move me out. I just waited, but there was a lot of pressure, lots and lots of pressure.

Hubie Jones

Hubert Eugene Jones, better known as “Hubie,” shaped and defined the civic and social landscape of Boston for more than forty-five years. He played a leadership role in the formation, building and rebuilding of at least thirty community organizations within Boston’s Black community and across all neighborhoods in the city.

Born in the Bronx neighborhood of New York City on December 13, 1933, Jones came to Boston in 1955 after graduating from the City College of New York. Growing up in the South Bronx, he was inspired by his mother Dorcas, who earned her high school diploma, a B.A. degree and a master’s degree after raising him and his siblings. His father, Hilma, a Pullman Porter, was also an inspiration as he worked along side A. Philip Randolph in organizing the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters. Randolph even gave the eulogy at his father’s funeral. At CCNY, Jones was inspired by the famed psychologist Dr. Kenneth Clark, whose psychological studies with Black and White children helped bring about the 1954 Supreme Court decision, Brown v. Board of Education.

After receiving a master’s in social work from Boston University, Jones moved through a series of positions in Boston social work agencies. Starting at Boston Children’s Services in 1957, he left for Judge Baker Guidance Center in 1961, and in 1965, he became the director of the Roxbury Multiservice Center, where he remained until 1971. Under Jones, RMC became a national model for neighborhood-based social services for low-income city residents.

While serving as RMC’s director in 1967, Jones noticed a pattern of children who were not going to school in Boston. He led a formal investigation and published a scathing indictment of the Boston Public Schools for systematically excluding 10,000 children because they were physically or mentally disabled, had behavioral problems, did not speak English or were pregnant. The task force report, The Way We Go to School: The Exclusion of Children in Boston, led to the groundbreaking enactments of two landmark laws in Massachusetts, the Special Education Law and the Bilingual Education Law, to protect the rights of and give appropriate education services and instruction to special needs children. The task force, chaired by Jones, became known as the Massachusetts Advocacy Center, now the Massachusetts Advocates for Children.

Jones spent the 1971-1972 year as the Whitney M. Young, Jr. Community Fellow at MIT, and from 1972 until 1977 he was an associate professor in the department of urban studies and planning at MIT. He then became the first African American appointed to a deanship at Boston University, serving as the dean of the School of Social Work from 1977 to 1993.
Between 1995 and 2002, Jones served as special assistant to the chancellor for urban affairs at the University of Massachusetts, Boston. In 2002, he founded the Boston Children’s Chorus, consisting of eighty young people from diverse ethnic and socio-economical backgrounds.

Jones has been honored numerous times for his dedication to children’s advocacy, and friends and colleagues have established The Hubie Fund, to benefit ongoing social concerns in Boston.

Accession Number

A2004.203

Sex

Male

Interview Date

10/14/2004

Last Name

Jones

Maker Category
Schools

City College of New York

Boston University

P.S. 51 Bronx New School

P.S. 23 The New Children's School

Morris High School

First Name

Hubie

Birth City, State, Country

New York

HM ID

JON11

Favorite Season

Fall

State

New York

Favorite Vacation Destination

Hilton Head, South Carolina

Favorite Quote

Life Is Not A 60-Yard Dash. It's A Marathon And Staying The Course Is The Secret To It All.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Massachusetts

Interview Description
Birth Date

12/13/1933

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Boston

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Grits (Hominy)

Short Description

Social worker and academic administrator Hubie Jones (1933 - ) was the first African American dean at Boston University. Jones also served as Special Assistant to the Chancellor for Urban Affairs at the University of Massachusetts, Boston and founded the Boston Children’s Chorus.

Employment

Boston Children’s Services

Judge Baker Guidance Center

Roxbury Multi-Service Center

Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)

Boston University

University of Massachusetts, Boston

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Hubie Jones' interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Hubie Jones lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Hubie Jones describes his mother's background in Abbeville, South Carolina

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Hubie Jones explains his mother's hospitality toward family

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Hubie Jones tells stories of his mother's humor and tenacity

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Hubie Jones speaks about his mother's aspirations and determination

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Hubie Jones describes his maternal grandmother's depression

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Hubie Jones talks about his father's accomplishments as a Pullman porter, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Hubie Jones talks about his father's accomplishments as a Pullman porter, pt. 2

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Hubie Jones explains his father's position within the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Hubie Jones describes his paternal grandmother's quiet strength

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Hubie Jones talks about growing up in the South Bronx neighborhood of New York, New York in the 1930s and 1940s

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Hubie Jones remembers his elementary, middle and high schools in the Bronx, New York, New York

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Hubie Jones recalls his initial interest in social work

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Hubie Jones talks about his mentor, Dr. Kenneth Bancroft Clark

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Hubie Jones remembers his training at the School of Social Work at Boston University in Boston, Massachusetts

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Hubie Jones recalls being transformed by Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King's Ford Hall Forum oration on October 28, 1956 in Boston, Massachusetts

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Hubie Jones describes "being up south" in 1950s Boston, Massachusetts

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Hubie Jones recalls organizing the 1963 Stop Day work strike in Boston, Massachusetts, pt. 1

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Hubie Jones recalls organizing the 1963 Stop Day work strike in Boston, Massachusetts, pt. 2

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Hubie Jones remembers his experience working with delinquent children at the Judge Baker Guidance Clinic in Newton, Massachusetts

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Hubie Jones talks about his eight children

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Hubie Jones remembers being hired as assistant director for Action for Boston Community Development

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Hubie Jones talks about his achievements as executive director of the Roxbury Multi-Service Center in Boston, Massachusetts

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Hubie Jones explains the significance of Massachusetts Chapter 766 and the Transitional Bilingual Education Act

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Hubie Jones remembers joining the Mel King Community Fellows program at Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge, Massachusetts

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Hubie Jones recalls teaching urban studies at Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge, Massachusetts

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Hubie Jones remembers becoming dean of the School of Social Work at Boston University in Boston, Massachusetts

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Hubie Jones recalls his faculty recruitment at School of Social Work at Boston University in Boston, Massachusetts

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Hubie Jones remembers serving as acting president of Roxbury Community College in Roxbury Crossing, Massachusetts

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Hubie Jones remembers the 1992 re-accreditation for Roxbury Community College in Roxbury Crossing, Massachusetts

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Hubie Jones recalls negotiating the location of the school board track at Roxbury Community College in Roxbury Crossing, Massachusetts

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Hubie Jones recalls becoming special assistant to the chancellor of University of Massachusetts Boston in Boston, Massachusetts

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Hubie Jones describes civic programs he created at the University of Massachusetts Boston in Boston, Massachusetts, pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Hubie Jones describes civic programs he created at the University of Massachusetts Boston in Boston, Massachusetts, pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Hubie Jones talks about his involvement with Massachusetts Advocates for Children

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Hubie Jones describes some of the civic organizations he helped establish in Boston, Massachusetts

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Hubie Jones talks about the Boston Children's Chorus

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Hubie Jones talks about appearing as a regular panelist on 'Five on Five'

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Hubie Jones describes the production of 'Five on Five' for WCVB-TV

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Hubie Jones reflects upon his life, pt. 1

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Hubie Jones reflects upon his life, pt. 2

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Hubie Jones shares lessons he has learned about organizing community programs and initiatives

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Hubie Jones describes how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Hubie Jones reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Hubie Jones talks about his honorary doctorate of public service from the University of Maryland in Baltimore, Maryland

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - Hubie Jones reflects upon his father inspiring his achievements

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Hubie Jones narrates his photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$4

DAStory

6$4

DATitle
Hubie Jones talks about his mentor, Dr. Kenneth Bancroft Clark
Hubie Jones remembers becoming dean of the School of Social Work at Boston University in Boston, Massachusetts
Transcript
--I would guess the other powerful thing that happened to me at [The] City College [of New York, New York, New York], which also pushed me towards this social service, social policy stuff, I had Dr. Kenneth [B.] Clark, the noted African American psychologist, as my teacher in my introduction psychology course, and at that time, Dr. Clark was--he had put together the social science team for Brown v. the Board of Education [Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, 1954], and he talked with us about it class. In fact, he came in with the brief one day. He said, "This is our brief," you know, "that we're taking to the [U.S.] Supreme Court. The Supreme Court of the United States has never accepted a social science brief, and in fact the lawyers at the NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People] some of them don't think it's a good idea, but finally Thurgood Marshall says, 'Yeah, let's go with it.' So, here's the brief, you know, and this brief basically is to document that separation of children by race is damaging to black kids. What do you think? Is the evidence there?" You know, was evidence there? This is a kind of headache you know, whoa, you know, and then he, then Dr. Clark went to the court, you know, went to the Supreme Court to argue, and he'd come back and tell us about it, okay. So, I saw a black academic who's a terrific scholar, but who was prepared to use his knowledge to push for social change, serious social change for black folks. And it was a model that I found to be very, very powerful, and so when I got into academia by a fluke, and you'll learn about that later. When I got into academia by a fluke, my model was Kenneth Clark okay, and I used with my classes something that he said to my class at the end of the semester. With every class I ever had when I was at School of Social Work at BU [Boston University, Boston, Massachusetts] I would say exactly what Clark said to me, said to our class, and that was--last day, this is what he said, "Look, the college requires me to give you a grade; I really don't want to do it, 'cause I think it's irrelevant, but I'm gonna do it; I'm compelled to do it. But, the grade I really want to give you is when I come meet you five years from now or ten years from now, and I say, like, 'What have you done? Have you used your knowledge and what you've learned in college to make a difference?' That's the grade I want to give you. That's the grade I want to give you. That's the real grade." And every once in a while, when I met Ken Clark over the course of my life, he'd say, "Is it time for me to grade you?" and I say, "Oh, Ken Clark, not now, not right--not yet.'"$$I wanna just digress a little bit--$$Yeah.$$--and it's kind of off the track, but when was the last time you saw Dr. Clark? Have you seen him recently?$$No, I haven't seen him. I haven't seen him recently. I saw him at an event in New York. His daughter [Kate Miriam Clark Harris] ended up working for me when I ran the Roxbury Multi-Service Center [Boston, Massachusetts] for a while, and we became friends. So, I hear a lot about Dr. Clark. He's not in very good shape, but it's amazing that's he's living. He's almost, he just had a ninetieth birthday, and the reason I say it's amazing he's living is he was a chain smoker, and so he'd be in class, one cigarette after the next, okay, and that went on for life, but here he is ninety years of age and so forth. But no, he's very fragile and all the rest, but he was a powerful model--$All of a sudden I get a call from Boston University [Boston, Massachusetts], a guy named Saul Levine, who's head of the search committee at Boston University, saying, "The dean at the School of Social Work [Boston University, Boston, Massachusetts], your alma mater, is retiring, and I'm head of the search committee and your name has come up, would you be willing to be considered? Would you apply?" I said, "I don't think so. I don't think that's what I want to do. I want to do something else. I'm not--." And the word got out. I told some of my colleagues about it, and a couple of them thought I was making a mistake. [HistoryMaker] Frank Jones was one. He said, "I want to take you to lunch and talk with you about this. I understand that this is an option for you, maybe, you know, like why don't you want to do this?" "I don't want to be cloistered in the academia, you know, I want to, you know, the place has to be transformed over there, you know they got a whole bunch of--." I mean, the things, you know, it's, and so he said, "Well, I think you ought to think about this differently. You have a mistaken notion that to work in the academy means that you're locked in and disengaged and cut off from community and significant work in community or in the world. Why don't you just look at what the, you know, what your colleagues here at MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Massachusetts] do. When they want to do something in the community, take a year off, and they do it. They're doing it without taking a year off, you know, and even when they take a year or two off, you know, they come back to MIT; they don't let this up. They don't, they don't give this up, and this is why they don't give it up. So you ought to really rethink this, okay. You know being dean of a school of social work, you know, and having that position and command of some resources may give you a greater opportunity to do some of the thing you want to do in terms of the city. It may even give you more prestige. So, I think you ought to think about this." And somebody else, another friend of mine, Tom Glynn [Thomas P. Glynn] who happens now to be the COO of (unclear) health care system [sic. Partners Health Care] who had been a friend of mine, worked in my campaign for [U.S.] Congress, called me up and said the same thing. "Why aren't you thinking about this? Let me take you to lunch and talk with you about it," okay. And out of those conversations, I began to think differently about it. So, I called up the search committee and said, "I think I will throw my hat in the ring." Once I did that, I then had to begin thinking about what would I say when I got to the search committee? What would my program be? What did I have to give? What did I have to bring? What, you know what, what, you know--? So, I really had to think deeply about what would I do if I was the dean of a school of social work, and I had to get my act together for them (simultaneous).$$(Simultaneous) What did you tell them? Do you remember?$$Yeah, I told them that I was interested in seeing how a school of social work could be more related to the developments in the city, how students could have experiences, in terms of training, in, you know, very interesting important service institutions in the city, and that I thought the School of Social Work could have an enormous impact on city life and city development, which was not the case with the Boston University School of Social Work at that time, and that this is one of the things that I would do. I was a social group worker, so they knew that I had a commitment to social group work. Boston University School of Social Work was one of the best group work programs in the country, and I wanted to keep that strong and whole, but I made a case for the kind of leadership I could provide that was broader than the narrow social work leadership that you usually get from a dean of a school of social work.