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Keith Jackson

Physicist Keith Hunter Jackson was born on September 24, 1953 in Columbus, Ohio to Gloria and Russell Jackson. He earned two B.S. degrees, one in physics from Morehouse College and one in electrical engineering from the Georgia Institute of Technology. Jackson then moved to California where he obtained his M.S. and Ph.D. degrees from Stanford University in 1979 and 1982, respectively.

After obtaining his graduate degrees, Jackson began working for Hewlett Packard Laboratories. He became a member of the Gate Dielectric group and developed techniques to create thin nitride films on silicon layers. In 1983, he served as a professor at Howard University, working in the Solid State Electronics group. Beginning in 1988, Jackson worked for Rockwell International (now Boeing) in the Rocketdyne division where under the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI) program he performed research on diamond thin films, high powered chemical and Free Electron Lasers (FEL) and water-cooled optics. In 1992, Jackson began working for the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory as associate director of the Center for X-Ray Optics (CXRO). His research interests were in the Extreme Ultra-Violet (EVU) lithography, x-ray lithography, electroplating and injection molding. EUV lithography is the technology, which is used to build billions of nano-sized devices for use in computers and cell phones. X-ray lithography and molding is used to build micro-sized mechanical devices like micropumps, and tiny mirrors for large screen projection TV’s. In 2005, Jackson became Vice President of Research and Professor of Physics at Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University (FAMU). On January 4th 2010, Jackson moved to Baltimore, Maryland and joined the faculty of Morgan State University as Chair of the Department of Physics.

Jackson served as president of the National Society of Black Physicists (NSBP) from 2001 to 2006. He is also a fellow of the National Society of Black Physicists and the African Scientific Institute. In 2004, Jackson was selected as one of the 50 Most Important African Americans in Technology by U.S. Black Engineer and Information Technology. In addition to his published papers, Jackson has written pieces on minority physicists including “Utilization of African American Physicists in the Science & Engineering Workforce” and “The Status of the African American Physicist in the Department of Energy National Laboratories.”

Accession Number

A2012.140

Sex

Male

Interview Date

7/16/2012

9/10/2012

Last Name

Jackson

Middle Name

H.

Schools

Morehouse College

Georgia Institute of Technology

Stanford University

First Name

Keith

Birth City, State, Country

Columbus

HM ID

JAC29

Favorite Season

April

State

Ohio

Favorite Vacation Destination

Paris, France

Favorite Quote

In Physics, We Don't Teach You What To Think. We Teach You How To Think.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Maryland

Interview Description
Birth Date

9/24/1953

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Baltimore

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Oranges

Short Description

Physicist and physics professor Keith Jackson (1953 - ) served as president of the National Society of Black Physicists, vice president of research at Florida A&M University and chair of the Department of Physics at Morgan State University.

Employment

Morgan State University

Florida A&M University

Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory

National Association for Equal Opportunity in Higher Education (NAFEO)

Rockwell International

Howard University

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626363">Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Keith Jackson's interview</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626364">Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Keith Jackson lists his favorites</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626365">Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Keith Jackson describes his mother's family background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626366">Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Keith Jackson describes his mother's experience growing up in Columbus, Ohio</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626367">Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Keith Jackson talks about his mother attending Ohio State University</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626368">Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Keith Jackson describes his father's family background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626369">Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Keith Jackson describes his father's service in the U.S. Air Force and his experience at Harvard Law School in the 1950s</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626370">Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Keith Jackson describes his father's death in 1957</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626371">Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Keith Jackson describes how his parents met and got married</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626372">Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Keith Jackson describes his parents' personalities and who he takes after</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626373">Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Keith Jackson recalls his memories of his father</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626374">Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Keith Jackson talks about his brother, and describes his earliest childhood memory</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626375">Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Keith Jackson describes the sights, smells and sounds of growing up in Columbus, Ohio</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626376">Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Keith Jackson describes segregation in Columbus, Ohio, in the 1950s and 1960s</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626377">Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Keith Jackson describes his experience in school</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626378">Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Keith Jackson describes his interest in comic books and Estes model rockets</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626379">Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Keith Jackson describes his childhood perception of the space race</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626380">Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Keith Jackson talks about his secular upbringing</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626381">Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Keith Jackson talks about his brother, David Jackson, and his childhood interest in slot cars</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626382">Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Keith Jackson describes how slot cars work</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626383">Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Keith Jackson talks about his technical problem-solving skills as a teenager - part one</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626384">Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Keith Jackson talks about his technical problem-solving skills as a teenager - part two</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626385">Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Keith Jackson describes his experience attending Champion Junior High School and Bishop Hartley Catholic School</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626386">Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Keith Jackson describes his mother's reasons for sending him to Bishop Hartley Catholic School</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626387">Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Keith Jackson describes his experience at Bishop Hartley Catholic School in Columbus, Ohio</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626388">Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Keith Jackson describes his experience at Eastmoor High School in Columbus, Ohio - part one</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626389">Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Keith Jackson describes his experience at Eastmoor High School in Columbus, Ohio - part two</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626390">Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Keith Jackson talks about the activism of Dr. Charles O. Ross at Ohio State University</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626391">Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Keith Jackson talks about applying to colleges in the 1970s</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626392">Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Keith Jackson describes his decision to attend Morehouse College to major in physics</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626393">Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Keith Jackson describes his experience at Morehouse College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626394">Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Keith Jackson talks about Carl Spight's role in improving the physics department at Morehouse College - part one</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626395">Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Keith Jackson talks about Carl Spight's role in improving the physics department at Morehouse College - part two</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626396">Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Keith Jackson describes his experience at Morehouse College - part one</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626397">Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Keith Jackson describes his experience at Morehouse College - part two</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626398">Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Keith Jackson talks about the physics department at Morehouse College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626399">Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Keith Jackson talks about his foundational education in physics at Morehouse College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626400">Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Keith Jackson talks about black professional societies in the 1970s, and the trends regarding black scientists at the time</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626401">Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Keith Jackson discusses science education at historically black colleges and universities - part one</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626402">Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Keith Jackson discusses science education at historically black colleges and universities - part two</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626403">Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Keith Jackson discusses the importance of a foundational education for physics and engineering students</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626404">Tape: 7 Story: 2 - Keith Jackson discusses recent discoveries and trends in the physical sciences and technology</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626405">Tape: 7 Story: 3 - Keith Jackson describes the Higgs boson and the implications of its discovery - part one</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626406">Tape: 7 Story: 4 - Keith Jackson describes the Higgs boson and the implications of its discovery - part two</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626407">Tape: 7 Story: 5 - Keith Jackson describes his experience as a graduate student at Stanford University - part one</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626408">Tape: 7 Story: 6 - Keith Jackson describes his experience as a graduate student at Stanford University - part two</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626409">Tape: 8 Story: 1 - Keith Jackson describes his decision to work at Stanford University's Synchrotron Radiation Laboratory</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626410">Tape: 8 Story: 2 - Keith Jackson describes his doctoral research at Stanford University's Synchrotron Radiation Laboratory - part one</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626411">Tape: 8 Story: 3 - Keith Jackson describes his doctoral research at Stanford University's Synchrotron Radiation Laboratory - part two</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626412">Tape: 8 Story: 4 - Keith Jackson describes his doctoral research at Stanford University's Synchrotron Radiation Laboratory - part three</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626413">Tape: 8 Story: 5 - Keith Jackson talks about the dangers of working with lasers</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626414">Tape: 9 Story: 1 - Keith Jackson describes his decision to join the department of electrical engineering at Howard University</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626415">Tape: 9 Story: 2 - Keith Jackson describes his decision to leave Howard University and accept a position at Rocketdyne</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626416">Tape: 9 Story: 3 - Keith Jackson describes his work on the free electron laser at Rocketdyne</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626417">Tape: 9 Story: 4 - Keith Jackson describes his work on diamond thin films at Rocketdyne - part one</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626418">Tape: 9 Story: 5 - Keith Jackson describes his work on diamond thin films at Rocketdyne - part two</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626419">Tape: 9 Story: 6 - Keith Jackson describes his work on the application of Rocketdyne's water-cooler mirrors in the synchrotron radiation community</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626420">Tape: 10 Story: 1 - Keith Jackson describes the importance of finding the correct match in employment</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626421">Tape: 10 Story: 2 - Keith Jackson describes his decision to join Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in 1992 - part one</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626422">Tape: 10 Story: 3 - Keith Jackson describes his decision to join Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in 1992 - part two</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626423">Tape: 10 Story: 4 - Keith Jackson describes the concept of Extreme Ultraviolet Lithography</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626424">Tape: 10 Story: 5 - Keith Jackson describes his work on Extreme Ultraviolet Lithography at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626425">Tape: 11 Story: 1 - Keith Jackson discusses the futuristic projects at Rockwell International's Advance Programs division</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626426">Tape: 11 Story: 2 - Keith Jackson describes his involvement with the National Society of Black Physicists (NSBP) - part one</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626427">Tape: 11 Story: 3 - Keith Jackson describes his involvement with the National Society of Black Physicists (NSBP) - part two</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626428">Tape: 11 Story: 4 - Keith Jackson discusses the lack of African American professional physicists at laboratories funded by the Department of Energy - part one</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626429">Tape: 11 Story: 5 - Keith Jackson discusses the lack of African American professional physicists at laboratories funded by the Department of Energy - part two</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626430">Tape: 11 Story: 6 - Keith Jackson talks about what it takes to become a successful physicist</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626431">Tape: 12 Story: 1 - Keith Jackson talks about the shortage of African American scientists in management and research roles</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626432">Tape: 12 Story: 2 - Keith Jackson talks about the African American scientists employed at Thomas Jefferson National Laboratory</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626433">Tape: 12 Story: 3 - Keith Jackson describes his involvement with the National Association for Equal Opportunity in Higher Education (NAEOHE) - part one</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626434">Tape: 12 Story: 4 - Keith Jackson describes his involvement with the National Association for Equal Opportunity in Higher Education (NAEOHE) - part two</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626435">Tape: 12 Story: 5 - Keith Jackson describes his decision to become a professor of physics at Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626436">Tape: 12 Story: 6 - Keith Jackson describes his experience working at Florida A&M University, and the nature of the U.S. federal granting process</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626437">Tape: 13 Story: 1 - Keith Jackson describes the mismanagement of research funds at Florida A&M University in the early 2000s - part one</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626438">Tape: 13 Story: 2 - Keith Jackson describes the mismanagement of research funds at Florida A&M University in the early 2000s - part two</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626439">Tape: 13 Story: 3 - Keith Jackson describes the state of research funding at Florida A&M University</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626440">Tape: 13 Story: 4 - Keith Jackson describes his involvement in securing research funding for Florida A&M University - part one</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626441">Tape: 13 Story: 5 - Keith Jackson describes his involvement in securing research funding for Florida A&M University - part two</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626442">Tape: 13 Story: 6 - Keith Jackson describes his involvement in securing research funding for Florida A&M University - part three</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626443">Tape: 14 Story: 1 - Keith Jackson describes his experience at Florida A&M University</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626444">Tape: 14 Story: 2 - Keith Jackson describes his decision to leave Florida A&M University</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626445">Tape: 14 Story: 3 - Keith Jackson describes the challenges to science education at HBCUs - part one</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626446">Tape: 14 Story: 4 - Keith Jackson describes the challenges to science education at HBCUs - part two</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626447">Tape: 14 Story: 5 - Keith Jackson describes his hopes and concerns for the African American community today</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626448">Tape: 14 Story: 6 - Keith Jackson reflects upon his legacy</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626449">Tape: 15 Story: 1 - Keith Jackson reflects upon his career choices</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626450">Tape: 15 Story: 2 - Keith Jackson talks about his family</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/626451">Tape: 15 Story: 3 - Keith Jackson talks about how he would like to be remembered</a>

DASession

2$1

DATape

9$8

DAStory

6$4

DATitle
Keith Jackson describes his work on the application of Rocketdyne's water-cooler mirrors in the synchrotron radiation community
Keith Jackson describes his doctoral research at Stanford University's Synchrotron Radiation Laboratory - part three
Transcript
About this time, there was, I made a reintroduction to the synchrotron light source community because we had, the company [Rocketdyne; rocket engine design and production company] had a contract or thought that they were competing for a contract to build a large free-electron laser. And this was a half billion dollar contract. A lot of effort went into it, and eventually, the [U.S.] Air Force decided that they weren't gonna go for it. They weren't gonna build this huge free electron laser to take out satellites because they didn't believe--I mean take out missiles because they didn't believe it would work, which left us with a number of technologies. One was the, one was, had to do with particle accelerators and magnetic structures called undulators that go around them. And it also left us with a division that built cooled mirrors, water-cooled mirrors, okay.$$What--okay.$$So you'd have a water-cooled mirror for the laser. That way you'd be able to keep the temperature rise at the surface, and the optics wouldn't distort and the laser would keep running. Now, the trouble is, when you looked at this, well, who else needed these kinds of technologies, you know? Who, who could, who had the pocketbook to pay for this and the technical need. And I argued within the company that the synchrotron radiations community needed these kinds of optics because the advance photon source at the Argonne National Lab [Illinois] was coming on line, and also the advance light source at Berkeley [Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, Berkeley, California] was coming on line. And when you looked--these were sources that were built for these small-cap, magnetic insertion devices called undulators. And when you put these undulators into being, they pulled out a tremendous amount of light at x-ray wavelength, at EUV [extreme ultra violet], and x-ray wavelengths. And they would, and when you had optics on there, they would build a tremendous amount, there would be a tremendous amount of thermo loading on the mirrors. And they had various schemes, technologies that they had developed that were, that relied on very exotic cooling techniques. One was a liquid gallium cooled mirrors. So gallium like mercury is a liquid, not quite at room temperature, but add a little bit above. And you have the, you can pump it as you would any liquid, and it has a tremendous thermo-conductivity. And so there was one scheme where you would use this to cool a mirror. Now, I never, the reason I smile is, I never believed that that would work. And the people at the Advanced Photon Source at the time said that something like 90 percent of their mirrors would be these gallium-based things. And this is, and plus, they did not have the technology--they would have to build the mirrors. That's how they, because that's why it was gonna be 90 percent of it so they would have a job for life. But, you know, we had a company, a little company that actually built these mirrors, these water-cooled mirrors. We had prototypes, we had some of the--Rocketdyne solved these technical problems like how you bond these mirrors together, how you actually, you had, we had different types of 'em, some of 'em which had, we called 'em pinFET. That means you stuck little pins in, and then you put it on top, and then you blow water through it. And you can change the size of this pin. You could change the concentration of the pins. So we needed something, one area cooler than the other. There were even schemes for being able to use the thermo differences to bend and focus mirrors, which was unheard of at these wavelengths.$But, so anyway, so we engineered an apparatus after we looked at the requirements, okay. So we have to have a window, something that shows us from the storage ring. And so we have to use a thin film metal window. Then the issue was, well, if you vent your chamber, you let it up to air, if there's atmospheric pressure there, it's gonna break through this window. I said, well, we're not, I'm naive and I say, well, we're not gonna let it vent. And they say, well, what we're gonna have is we're gonna have a fine. Anybody who vents their chambers, $10,000. And I said, well, maybe we'll get a thicker window. So I started to look into getting windows thick enough to take atmospheric pressure--and by the way, these foils are about a hundred times thinner than a sheet of aluminum foil. A sheet of aluminum foil is a hundred microns thick. These films, these foils were ten microns thick. Your hair is 125 microns thick. And it soon became clear, well, there's no foil on earth that's gonna be thin enough that I could put in there. So I, then I looked at supported films. And so there's a mesh there, and somehow, this guy miraculously gets aluminum foil on there that's three microns thick. And I say, well, that's still not gonna support this thing if I vent. And so the senior graduate student said--he wants to graduate. And so he's saying, well, we're gonna go back to the first suggestion of not venting the chamber and use the reputation of Dr. [Richard] Zare [Jackson's doctoral thesis advisor] and the desire that they had to get other people using this thing. And so we tried that, once. And this graduate student I was working for was from India. His name is Javed Hus--well, his ancestry is Indian. I don't think he was, I think he was born in the United States. And so we're running an experiment, and he's putting these things in, noxious gases. And I'm saying, well, Javed, you know, we don't really have the equipment to be handling this. And so we're doing that. We're getting some data, and the people come up there and inspect our apparatus. And we complete the experiment, and as I'm taking the thing down 'cause I was the only one authorized to use the crane, all right, the director of operations comes over to me. And I'll never forget, he says, well, Jackson, you're okay, but we don't want this Indian guy here anymore. And you need to go tell Zare. And in the meantime, 'cause I'm thinking, boy, you know, here I gotta go play, I gotta play rat. And in the meantime, he's getting impatient 'cause he wants to graduate. He's been there seven years, and he's not such a great experimentalist, all right. So he's starting an experiment in the lab using a laser and it's a gas laser, and he's got the gas plumb to it. And he got impatient and he didn't hook up the gas properly. So he took a big cylinder--and normally, you have a regulator that drops the pressure, he built an adapter where he was taking the straight pressure from the cylinder, with just some plastic tubing. And it's a low-pressure cylinder, but, no way. And the gas reacted with the plastic, burned away and the gas pours out into the room. The gas is poisonous. The other fifteen members of the group exit, you know, the lab, and they're out on the lawn. I came into the building from the back. I didn't see 'em. I come into the elevator. I go down into the lab. We're in the basement. And I opened the door and it was like a fist struck me from the gas that was in there. Happily, there was a graduate student, no, a post-doc that was there that was there with a gas mask or he made a gas mask. And he helped me back in the elevator, and we got up to the lawn where I was sitting up there coughing away. And after I regained my composure, I conveyed to Dr. Zare what the operations director said, and agreed with him (laughter). He's gotta go, you know. And then he got tremendous flack from the chemistry department and the university for the accident down there. And therefore, I, you know, that's where he worked out another experiment for the student to do, and I got to take over the experiment and, eventually got another assistant; engineered a system, a safety system that would shut two valves to protect the accelerator, sensor mat to go with it, utilized a new species of pump, turbo-molecular pump, to evacuate the chamber, all first for there, initiated collaborations with another scientist, David Shirley, director of Lawrence Berkeley [National] Laboratory [Berkeley, California], to get some experiments going, why this stuff was being built. And then got it, and did the experiment, did it on two gases, well, I did it on three gases, published the thesis on two, CO [carbon monoxide] and N2 [nitrogen] and was, you know, able to demonstrate for one of the first measurements, first that the alignment actually exist, what its value was, how to--the theory for coupling together the angular momentum so that it agrees with the experimental results and published that. That was my thesis. And then took a job in, at Hewett Packard [HP] in the semi-conductor device laboratory.