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James Hubbard, Jr.

Mechanical engineer and engineering professor James Edward Hubbard, Jr. was born on December 21, 1951 in Danville, Virginia. Hubbard received his high school diploma with a concentration in engineering in 1969 from the Baltimore Polytechnic Institute. In 1971, he enlisted as an officer in the U.S. Merchant Marine and served during the Vietnam War. He attended the Calhoon MEBA Marine Engineering School and became the youngest serviceman to receive the unlimited horsepower, steam and diesel engine Marine Engineering license from the U.S. Coast Guard. Returning to the United States, Hubbard began his undergraduate studies at Morgan State College, but after receiving encouragement from teachers, family and friends, he enrolled at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT). Hubbard went on to graduate from MIT with his B.S., M.S., and Ph.D. degrees in mechanical engineering in 1977, 1979, and 1982, respectively.

Hubbard has served as a professor and a researcher both inside and outside of academia. After receiving his Ph.D. degree, Hubbard continued his work as an assistant professor of mechanical engineering at MIT until 1985, and as a lecturer until 1994. While there, he mentored both graduate- and doctorate-level students. Following his tenure with MIT, Hubbard was hired at the Boston University Photonics Center, PhotoSense, Inc. and iProvica. In 2004, Hubbard returned to academia and was named the Samuel P. Langley Distinguished Professor Aerospace Engineering at the University of Maryland. Hubbard’s research has included sensors and system concepts, optoelectronics, and photonics. His work in 1985 resulted in the production of what many consider the first example of an “adaptive structure,” or a structure that can respond to changes in its environment. He also received a patent for his work with “Smart Skin” technology, or a large-area blanket-like sensor that could be used in a number of applications. His work with the Morpheus Laboratory, Hubbard’s research group at the University of Maryland and NIA, has focused on aerodynamic engineering and has resulted in such projects as ornithopters and the Sky Walker program.

Hubbard is a member of the Air Force Studies Board, the Naval Research Advisory Committee, and the Committee on Space Defense Technology. He has garnered several awards in recognition of his work in both industrial and academic settings. Hubbard was the 2009 recipient of the Smart Structures Product Innovation Award from the International Society for Optical Engineering. In 2002, Hubbard received the Black Engineer of the Year President’s Award from U.S. Black Engineer & Information Technology magazine.

Hubbard and his wife, Adrienne Hubbard, have three adult sons: James, Drew, and Jordan.

James Edward Hubbard, Jr. was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on May 19, 2013.

Accession Number

A2013.090

Sex

Male

Interview Date

5/19/2013

Last Name

Hubbard

Marital Status

Married

Middle Name

E

Schools

Baltimore Polytechnic Institute

Calhoon M.E.B.A. Engineering School

Morgan State University

Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Search Occupation Category
First Name

James

Birth City, State, Country

Danville

HM ID

HUB01

Favorite Season

Spring

State

Virginia

Favorite Vacation Destination

Anywhere Near Water

Favorite Quote

All that glitters is not gold

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Virginia

Birth Date

12/21/1951

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Hampton

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Flounder (Fried)

Short Description

Mechanical engineer and engineering professor James Hubbard, Jr. (1951 - ) served in the U.S. Merchant Marine during the Vietnam War and became the youngest serviceman to receive the unlimited horsepower, steam and diesel engine Marine Engineering license from the U.S. Coast Guard. Hubbard is the Samuel P. Langley Distinguished Professor Aerospace Engineering at the University of Maryland.

Employment

Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)

Charles Stark Draper Laboratory

Optron Systems, Inc.

Boston University Photonics Center

PhotoSense, Inc.

National Institute of Aerospace

University of Maryland, College Park

improVica

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of James Hubbard's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - James Hubbard lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - James Hubbard describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - James Hubbard describes his father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - James Hubbard talks about his parents' education and their employment

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - James Hubbard talks about his family living under the Jim Crow laws in Virginia

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - James Hubbard talks about how his parents met and were married

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - James Hubbard talks about his father's move to Philadelphia to escape the Jim Crow laws of the southern United States

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - James Hubbard describes his parents' personalities and who he takes after

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - James Hubbard talks about living in Philadelphia with his father for a year, and returning to Danville, Virginia

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - James Hubbard talks about his sister

Tape: 1 Story: 12 - James Hubbard talks about growing up in Danville, Virginia

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - James Hubbard describes his childhood in Danville, Virginia

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - James Hubbard talks about living under Jim Crow laws in Danville, Virginia

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - James Hubbard describes the sights, sounds and smells of growing up in Danville, Virginia

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - James Hubbard talks about the teachers who influenced him in grade school

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - James Hubbard talks about his performance in math in grade school

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - James Hubbard talks about attending Calvary Baptist Church in Danville, Virginia

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - James Hubbard talks about the Civil Rights Movement and Bloody Monday in Danville, Virginia in 1963

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - James Hubbard talks about his mother's involvement in the Civil Rights Movement, and his family's move to Baltimore, Maryland

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - James Hubbard talks about his experience in school in Baltimore, Maryland, and how it impacted him

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - James Hubbard describes his experience at Baltimore Polytechnic Institute

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - James Hubbard describes his experience in the U.S. Navy Sea Cadet Corps

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - James Hubbard talks about how he became a part of the Maryland Naval Militia

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - James Hubbard talks about his experience in the Maryland Naval Militia

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - James Hubbard talks about his experience at Calhoon MEBA, and entering the Vietnam War

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - James Hubbard describes his experience in the Merchant Marines as a ship engineer on an ammunition ship in the Vietnam War

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - James Hubbard reflects upon his experience with racism during the Vietnam War

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - James Hubbard describes his decision to attend Morgan State University and his experience there

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - James Hubbard talks about those who influenced him to attend the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - James Hubbard describes his experience at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) and talks about his mentors there

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - James Hubbard talks about his mentors at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - James Hubbard talks about his involvement and leadership in the Black Mechanical Engineers (BME) organization at MIT

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - James Hubbard talks about HistoryMaker, Shirley Jackson, and the Bell Labs Fellowship for minority students

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - James Hubbard talks about his dissertation research in helicopter rotor acoustics at MIT

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - James Hubbard talks about his financial struggles as a graduate student at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - James Hubbard describes his doctoral research on helicopter rotor acoustics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - James Hubbard talks about his mentor, Wesley Harris

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - James Hubbard talks about joining the faculty of the mechanical engineering department at the Massachusetts Institute of technology (MIT)

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - James Hubbard talks about his contributions to the field of piezoelectricity and smart structures - part one

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - James Hubbard talks about his contributions to the field of piezoelectricity and smart structures - part two

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - James Hubbard describes his decision to leave the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) in 1985 - part one

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - James Hubbard describes his decision to leave the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) in 1985 - part two

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - James Hubbard talks about working at Draper Laboratory, and with HistoryMaker Cardinal Warde at Optron Systems, Inc.

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - James Hubbard talks about his work with photolithography techniques and his decision to become the executive vice president of Optron Systems, Inc.

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - James Hubbard talks about co-founding the Boston University Photonics Center and founding PhotoSense, Inc. and iProvica, Inc.

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - James Hubbard talks about his invention of Smart Skin and his patents

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - James Hubbard describes his decision to accept a position as the Langley Distinguished Professor of Aerospace at the University of Maryland

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - James Hubbard talks about the students he mentored, and the "art of being a wolf"

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - James Hubbard describes his experience and his work at the National Institute of Aerospace (NIA)

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - James Hubbard talks about the Sky Walker Program

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - James Hubbard talks about his work on the Air Wolf Project

Tape: 7 Story: 3 - James Hubbard talks about founding a company with his son

Tape: 7 Story: 4 - James Hubbard talks about his wife

Tape: 7 Story: 5 - James Hubbard talks about his family

Tape: 7 Story: 6 - James Hubbard reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 7 Story: 7 - James Hubbard reflects upon his life

Tape: 8 Story: 1 - James Hubbard talks about his father's training as a pilot and how he owned and flew a Piper Cub plane

Tape: 8 Story: 2 - James Hubbard describes his hopes and concerns for the African American community today

Tape: 8 Story: 3 - James Hubbard shares his perspectives on today's generation

Tape: 8 Story: 4 - James Hubbard talks about how he would like to be remembered

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$6

DAStory

7$1

DATitle
James Hubbard reflects upon his experience with racism during the Vietnam War
James Hubbard talks about his work with photolithography techniques and his decision to become the executive vice president of Optron Systems, Inc.
Transcript
So did your view of the [Vietnam] war change any by being over there?$$Emm hmm (NODDING OF HIS HEAD).$$Okay.$$I grew up in the Maryland Naval Militia, part of a small elite team trained by a recon marine; we were all flavors. I was--you couldn't have found a more dedicated patriot; boy did I love my country, and I was proud of my skills; I had learned a lotta ways to kill a person at seventeen, like the military would, and volunteered. Even though I was sent over there by this guy to be hurt, I loved every minute of it. What happened was when I got there, two things happened; there were--everybody was there; there were all services, which shocked me; even Coast Guard. When we got there, you could look around, there was Coast Guard people, National Guard, there was Korean Elite Forces, I mean just around 'cause don't forget now, ships pull in, you got everybody running over there unloading it. I didn't expect that; there were uniforms and insignias that I did not recognize, and the white troops--if you weren't careful, they would call you Nigger in a minute--the white troops; that stunned me, that made a huge impact on me. And then I found out that a lotta them was getting fragged by the brothers over there--$$Emm hmm.$$--for that.$$And fragging is--$$Throw a hand grenade in the outhouse when they go to the bathroom, stuff like that (laughter).$$Getting rid of the Second Lieutenant or--$$They hated a lotta things man, you be walking down the street and a brother would see you and they had this thing that they would do; it was a sign thing.$$I believe it's called the Dap [ph.].$$No, it ain't no Dap. It was a lang-- (simultaneous)--it was a language; they would do this, and I found out that it meant 'Hi my brother, I would die for you.' It was stuff like that but it wasn't a Dap. You be walking, and on the other side of the street, a brother you ain't never seen, you turn to him and he would do this thing, and then you would learn how to answer him back. So it was more racist in Vietnam than it had been in Danville [Virginia], and I didn't expect that; I didn't expect that at all.$$Okay.$$Lotta killing; some guys on my ship killed some people and they (laughter) weren't even supposed to be doing that. Anyway. Nineteen [years old].$So what I was telling you Larry, was that Don [Donald] Fraser left [Draper Laboratory, Cambridge, Massachusetts] to become Deputy Undersecretary of Defense and I left because he was my mentor, and I left to help Cardinal Warde [also a HistoryMaker] because Cardinal was trying to develop a device that I had a lot of experience developing for Draper--$$Emm.$$--and, because of my background, he also wanted me to run the company.$$Okay now, what is this device?$$Do you wanna know technically what--well (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous)--Yeah, technically yeah.$$Okay. So it was during the Star Wars era, and there were a bunch of challenges for Star Wars; people were developing high-energy laser systems, alright? And what they would like for them to be able to do is sit on the ground and shoot down missiles, trying to hurt the United States. The problem, Larry, is when you shine a beam of light through the atmosphere, the currents in the air and all make the beam move all around. I mean if I aim at you if there's wind blowing, it'll blow--literally blow the--you know; I won't hit you. So one of the things you can do is take the beam of light and let it hit a mirror, and then steer the mirror to hit you; and then have a sensor that looks at all these air currents and as they wiggle the beam, the mirror wiggles in the opposite direction, and so the beam stays right on you and you're dead; that's called adaptive optics.$$Hmm.$$Well it turns out, it's really hard to do (laughter). The government, Lincoln Labs, had received a lotta money to develop the system I just told you about, but it turns out that the mirror has to be really flat and hard so they made it out of titanium. But the biggest mirror they could polish that flat was six inches. Then it turns out to do air currents, you have to have at least a thousand action waves on the back to wiggle the frequencies they want. They can only get 300 because it's only a six-inch mirror, and they used 300 piezo crystals to move it. Well, you gotta run piezos at 600 volts Larry; so they had 300 amplifiers in a room, air conditioned to get the 300 but I mean it was huge, it took up a whole building. When I was at Draper, I developed a two-inch mirror that had a million actuators on it. And, you could put it in your pocket; I have a patent on that--$$Hmm.$$--so Cardinal found out about that; I never published anything--a million. And so he was trying to develop the same kind of mirror to do large projection displays for movie theaters and for military use.$$Right, that's right.$$And so it was a natural--he was a gem; come on man (laughter). SAIC [Science Applications International Corporation]--I was interviewing with them 'cause I had worked with the founder of SAIC through Don Fraser; I had been on a government committee with him; his name was Larry Crowe and he was like--Larry Cole--and he was like "Jim, come and work with us." But then Cardinal--so I went with Cardinal and developed this deformable mirror. All kinds of photolithography techniques; I was there four years.$$Okay, and this was for Optron [Systems, Inc.]?$$Emm hmm (NODDING OF HIS HEAD YES), Optron.$$Optron, okay. Cardinal Warde.

Guion Bluford

NASA astronaut, aerospace engineer, military officer, and senior engineering executive, Guion S. Bluford Jr. was born on November 22, 1942 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He was the eldest of three sons of Guion Bluford, Sr., a mechanical engineer, and Lolita Bluford, a special education teacher. Bluford graduated from Overbrook Senior High School in 1960 and went on to graduate from Pennsylvania State University in 1964 with his B.S. degree in aerospace engineering. He was also a distinguished graduate of the U.S. Air Force ROTC program and received his commission as an Air Force second lieutenant. Bluford graduated from the Air Force Institute of Technology with his M.S. and Ph.D. degrees in aerospace engineering in 1974 and 1978, respectively. In 1987, Bluford received his M.B.A. degree in management from the University of Houston at Clear Lake.

After receiving his Air Force pilot wings, Bluford was assigned to the 557th Tactical Fighter Squadron at Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam. As an F4C fighter pilot, he flew 144 combat missions in Southeast Asia. From 1967 to 1972, he was a T-38 instructor pilot at Sheppard Air Force Base in Texas where he trained future U.S. Air Force and West German fighter pilots. Upon graduating from the Air Force Institute of Technology in 1974, Bluford was assigned to the U.S. Air Force Flight Dynamics Laboratory as Deputy for Advanced Concepts in the Aeromechanics Division and then as Branch Chief of the Aerodynamics and Airframe Branch. In 1978, Bluford was selected for the astronaut program and was officially designated a NASA astronaut one year later. In 1983, he became the first African American to fly in space and the first to receive the U.S. Air Force Command Pilot Astronaut Wings. Bluford was also the first African American to return to space a second, third, and fourth time when he flew on STS-61A in 1985, STS-39 in 1991, and STS-53 in 1992. He has logged more than 688 hours in space.

In 1993, he retired from NASA and the United States Air Force to become the Vice President/General Manager of the Engineering Services Division of NYMA Inc. He led the research support effort in aeropropulsion, satellite systems, microgravity and advanced materials. In 1997, he became the Vice President of the Aerospace Sector of the Federal Data Corporation and led the company’s NASA business. Finally, in 2000, Bluford became the Vice President of Microgravity R&D and Operation for Northrop Grumman Corporation and led the industry team in the development of two experiment facilities currently on the International Space Station. Today, Bluford is the President of the Aerospace Technology Group in Cleveland, Ohio.

Bluford has been awarded the Department of Defense Superior Service and Meritorious Service Medals; the Air Force Legion of Merit and Meritorious Service Medal; the NASA Distinguished Service and Exceptional Service Medals; the Pennsylvania Distinguished Service Medal; the 1991 Black Engineer of the Year Award and fourteen honorary doctorate degrees. He was inducted into the International Space Hall of Fame in 1997 and the U.S. Astronaut Hall of Fame in 2010

Guion Stewart Bluford, Jr. was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on May 9, 2013.

Accession Number

A2013.165

Sex

Male

Interview Date

5/9/2013

Last Name

Bluford

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Middle Name

Stewart

Schools

Air Force Institute of Technology

University of Houston

Pennsylvania State University

Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania

Speakers Bureau

Yes

Speakers Bureau Availability

Any

First Name

Guion

Birth City, State, Country

Philadelphia

HM ID

BLU01

Speakers Bureau Preferred Audience

Any

Speakers Bureau Honorarium

Yes - $4000-$7500

Favorite Season

Summer

Speaker Bureau Notes

For commencement speeches in which an honorary doctorate degree is confirmed, no honorarium is charged,

State

Pennsylvania

Favorite Vacation Destination

None

Favorite Quote

Do what you love and love what you do.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Ohio

Birth Date

11/22/1942

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Cleveland

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Steak, Lobster

Short Description

Astronaut and military officer Guion Bluford (1942 - ) , flew 144 combat missions in Southeast Asia as an F4C fighter pilot and served as a Branch Chief in the Air Force Flight Dynamics Laboratory. He became the first African American astronaut to fly in space on STS-8 (1983, shuttle Challenger), and the first African American to return to space a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th time on STS-61-A (1985, shuttle Challenger), STS-39 (1991, shuttle Discovery) and STS-53 (1992, shuttle Discovery). Bluford retired from NASA and the Air Force in 1993 to become a senior aerospace industry executive.

Employment

Aerospace Technology Group

Northrop Grumman Information Technology

Federal Data Corporation

NYMA Inc.

Johnson Space Center

Air Force Flight Dynamics Laboratory

3630th Flying Training Wing

12th Tactical Fighter Wing

Favorite Color

Beige

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Guion Bluford's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Guion Bluford lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Guion Bluford describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Guion Bluford talks about his mother's education and her career as a teacher

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Guion Bluford talks about growing up in a non-segregated environment in Philadelphia, and talks about his mother's career, personality and interests

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Guion Bluford describes his father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Guion Bluford describes his father's education, and how his parents met at Alcorn A&M College in the 1930s

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Guion Bluford describes his father's employment as an engineer, and his family's early life in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Guion Bluford describes his parents' personalities and who he takes after

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Guion Bluford talks about his brothers, and about growing up in Philadelphia

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Guion Bluford describes the demographics of West Philadelphia during his childhood years and describes his interests as a child

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Guion Bluford talks about his childhood interest in airplanes as well as joining the Boy Scouts

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Guion Bluford describes his experience at the YMCA and what influenced his childhood interest in becoming an aerospace engineer

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Guion Bluford describes his experience in elementary school and junior high school in Philadelphia

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Guion Bluford describes his experience in high school in Philadelphia

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Guion Bluford talks about his role models in engineering and his interest in pursuing a career in aeronautical engineering

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Guion Bluford talks about his teachers in school, his decision to attend Pennsylvania State University and his encounter with a college counselor

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Guion Bluford talks about his father's struggle with epilepsy, his mother career as a school teacher, and his grandfather's influence on his life

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Guion Bluford talks about his interest in solving puzzles and his decision to attend Pennsylvania State University for his undergraduate studies

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Guion Bluford talks about his graduating class at Overbrook High School in Philadelphia

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Guion Bluford describes his experience as an undergraduate student at Pennsylvania State University

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Guion Bluford describes his family's involvement in the Christian Science church

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Guion Bluford describes his fear of heights and hospitals

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Guion Bluford describes his social experience at Pennsylvania State University in the 1960s

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Guion Bluford talks about his decision to enroll in the Air Force Advanced ROTC Course and join the U.S. Air Force as an engineer

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Guion Bluford talks about how he met his wife, Linda Tull

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Guion Bluford talks about his decision to become a pilot in the U.S. Air Force

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Guion Bluford describes his senior year at Penn State University

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Guion Bluford talks about graduating from Penn State University

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Guion Bluford talks about Professor Leslie Greenhill and Professor Barnes McCormick, who were his mentors at Penn State University

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Guion Bluford talks about his early married life and the few months following his graduation from Penn State University

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Guion Bluford talks about his initial experience on Williams Air Force Base

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Guion Bluford describes his pilot training experience on Williams Air Force Base in 1965

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Guion Bluford talks about Air Force pilot Chappie James and his first assignment out of pilot training in 1966

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Guion Bluford talks about the low percentage of black pilots in the U.S. Air Force

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Guion Bluford describes his service as a U.S. Air Force fighter pilot in Vietnam, from 1966 to 1967 - part one

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Guion Bluford describes his service as a U.S. Air Force fighter pilot in Vietnam, from 1966 to 1967 - part two

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Guion Bluford talks about his fighter plane being shot at while he was in Vietnam

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Guion Bluford shares his perspective on the Vietnam War

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Guion Bluford talks about his decision to become an instructor pilot and his experience at Sheppard Air Force Base

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Guion Bluford talks about his decision to pursue graduate school

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Guion Bluford talks about Robert Lawrence

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Guion Bluford describes his experience in the master's degree program at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Guion Bluford describes his decision to pursue a Ph.D. degree in aerospace engineering

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Guion Bluford describes his experience as a doctoral student in aerospace engineering

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Guion Bluford discusses his doctoral dissertation on determining a numerical solution to describe the flow around a delta wing at hypersonic speeds

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Guion Bluford describes his decision to apply for the NASA astronaut program in 1977

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Guion Bluford describes his selection to the NASA astronaut program in 1978

DASession

1$1

DATape

5$2

DAStory

2$5

DATitle
Guion Bluford describes his service as a U.S. Air Force fighter pilot in Vietnam, from 1966 to 1967 - part one
Guion Bluford describes his experience at the YMCA and what influenced his childhood interest in becoming an aerospace engineer
Transcript
So, I got--$$So after--(simultaneous)--$$--I graduated from pilot training [at Williams Air Force Base, Mesa, Arizona], F-4Cs, frontline, Moc II, fighter bomber, Vietnam, Southeast Asia. That was my assignment.$$You were a bomber pilot?$$Fighter pilot. This is fighter pilot--(simultaneous)--$$Fighter pilot, okay.$$This is fighter pilot.$$All right, and you were flying the, what was the plane that you--$$F-4C Phantom.$$F-4C, okay.$$F-4C Phantom, brand new fighter airplane. It used to be a [U.S.] Navy airplane. Then the [U.S.] Air Force liked it and made it an Air Force airplane, "C" version. So after pilot training, I went to, left the wife [Linda Tull] and kids in Phoenix, went to Reno, Nevada to stay there for a space for three weeks of survival school. And then from there, I went down to Davis-Monthan [Air Force Base] in Tucson [Arizona], wife and kids, we all went down to Tucson for two or three months for radar school. And then we went to MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa, Florida, and I flew the machine, learned to fly it, take off, land, refuel, drop bombs, all that sort of stuff, about six months flying, six months. In October of '65 [1965] I sent the wife, and took the wife and kids to Philadelphia [Pennsylvania], got them situated and in October of sixty--not '65 [1965], October of '66' [1966], excuse me, October of '66 [1966], I went to Vietnam. My orders were to go to Ubon Air Base, 433rd Tactical Fighter Squadron. And if I had gotten there, I would have flown for [Daniel] Chappie James [Jr; fighter pilot in the U.S. Air Force, who in 1975 became the first black American to reach the rank of four-star general] and Robin Olds [fighter pilot and general officer in the U.S. Air Force], two fighter pilots who ran the wing up there. And this would have been primarily, I would have flown Air cap over North Vietnam, primarily, you know, shooting down MiGs, defending thuds [fighter bomber], F-105s, that sort of thing.$$You said, "if" you had gotten there?$$Yeah, I didn't get there. I'll tell you why.$$Okay.$$But that's where I was assigned. So, once I got the wife and kids up in Philadelphia, matter of fact, I left and they were still living with my parents [Harriett Lolita Brice Blueford and Guion Bluford, Sr.] 'cause they had--we didn't have enough time to get an apartment for 'em, and then I left. I was gone for nine months. I went from there to, I flew from there to Travis Air Force Base in California. I hopped a transport with, full of military guys going to Vietnam. The airplane flew from California to Hawaii. We got off the airplane in Hawaii just long enough to stretch our legs, and then we flew from there to Clark Air Force Base in the Philippines, great big Air Force base in the Philippines. I got to Clark Air Force Base in the Philippines, got off the airplane and they said, have you gone through jungle survival training? And I said, no. So they slowed me up about a week or so, and I took a jungle survival course at Clark, which was exciting, you know, learn how to eat, how to live in the jungle, took classes, did escape and evasion, how to escape and evade in the jungle, POW [prisoner of war] training, all that sort of stuff. While I was there, they changed my orders. They flipped me from there to 12th Tact Fighter Wing, Cam Ranh Bay [Vietnam]. 12th Tact Fighter Wing had deployed all, the whole wing deployed to Cam Ranh Bay. And the, the members of the wing were all finishing up their assignment, and they were coming back. They needed people to replace 'em. And so instead of going to Ubon, Thailand, I went to Cam Ranh Bay and South Vietnam, Twelfth Tact Fighter Wing, a wing of maybe four squadrons and F-4C Phantoms. So we must have had eighty fighters, great, great big fighter base. It was also a transport base, lots of military transports go in there. We had a hospital there, a major hospital facility there, and the [U.S.] Navy had a port there. So it was a great, big--it was a major base. So I flew nine months in Vietnam, and I flew out of Cam Ranh Bay, 144 missions total, dropped bombs all over Southeast Asia, South Vietnam, North Vietnam, Laos. I had sixty-five missions over North Vietnam. Primarily, they were air cover. When I did fly that way, we would take off out of Cam Ranh Bay and fly North. We would refuel just, just below the DMZ [The Korean Demilitarized Zone] between North and South Vietnam, and go up and fly six hour mission, air cap, come back, refuel coming back and then come home, good six-hour mission, did long missions. So lots of triple A. I still remember being shot at by a 85 millimeter. I still remember my last mission where I got deployed, scrambled off the alert path. We had two or three fighters that sat on the alert pad. And as, and they would assign you to the alert pad, which would mean you live in trailers out near the runway, and they would scramble fighters in, if they had an emergency some place. I still remember being scrambled and dropping bombs on active, triple A site in the DMZ between the North and South Vietnam. I still remember seeing all those tracers and all that sort of stuff, still remember flying, coming home one day and having a wing, a bullet hole in the wing. The best missions flying out of Cam Ranh Bay were ground support and supporting the ground guys. You'd fly in--see the [U.S.] Army guys all ready to take a piece of real estate, and you drop bombs on 'em, you drop 500-pound slicks as well high drag bombs, fired rockets. We had, the airplane didn't have a internal gun. So if we had to stray, we had to carry a gun pod which worked some of the time and which didn't work some of the time. It was nine months of doing that.$I was also very involved with the YMCA [Young Men's Christian Association]. In the summertime, my mother [Harriet Lolita Brice Bluford] would give me some money. I would hop the bus and L [subway] and go to the Central Y [YMCA], downtown Philadelphia [Pennsylvania]. And, and that was a major event, you know, in the summertime. I learned how to swim at the Y. I worked out, and they had calisthenics and gym activity, played basketball. I learned to play checkers and chess and ping pong, and I got good enough at checkers--at ping pong and chess that when I was in high school, I was on the Chess Team and on the Ping Pong Team. So it had that. The YMCA was also a major factor in my life because I learned how to make model airplanes, part of being at the Y. We'd get on, I'd get up and go to the Y every day. It would be a full-day activity. But part of it was, I made model airplanes and ships and so forth and so on. So my model building developed at the Y, and that led to my strong interest in airplanes and my desire to eventually, to be an aerospace engineer. Plus, the fact that I liked math, I really like--I'm a math guy. So a combination of all of that just drove me towards being what I wanted to be, an aerospace engineer. And then you copy--you put on top of that the fact that I had a father [Guion Bluford, Sr.] who was a mechanical engineer. Not only was he a mechanical engineer, but he loved what he did. He loved what he did.$$Yeah, I read that he would come, he would leave the house excited every morning.$$Oh, he was, he, he enjoyed--he never brought the, he never brought his work home, but I knew he loved what he did. And that was, that was a very motivating factor for me because that's why I sort of said, "Do what you love, and love what you do," you know, so. So I grew up in that world.

Darryll Pines

Aerospace engineer and mechanical engineer Darryll Pines was born on August 28, 1964 in Oakland, California. received his B.S. degree in mechanical engineering from the University of California, Berkeley. He went on to receive advanced degrees in mechanical engineering from Massachusetts Institute of Technology, his M.S. degree in 1988 and his Ph.D. degree in 1992.

Pines worked for the Chevron Corporation and Space Tethers, Inc. before joining Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL)’s Advance Technology Program. At LLNL, he helped design the sensor technology of Clementine-1 spacecraft. In 1995, Pines joined the faculty of the University of Maryland (UMD) as an assistant professor. He became the director of UMD’s Sloan Scholars Program in 1996 and the director of the GEM Program in 1999. Pines has also served as chair of the Engineering Council, director of the NASA CUIP Program and director of the SAMPEX flight experiment. He took a leave of absence from 2003 to 2006 to serve as the program manager for the Tactical Technology Office and Defense Sciences Office of DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency). In 2006, Pines became chair of UMD’s Department of Aerospace Engineering, where under his leadership, the department was ranked eighth overall among United States universities. Three years later, he was named dean of the A. James Clark School of Engineering and the Nariman Farvardin Professor of Engineering. Pines’ research focuses on structural dynamics, smart sensors, biologically inspired structures as well as the guidance and control of aerospace vehicles.

Pines was named a fellow of the Institute of Physics, the American Society of Mechanical Engineers and the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics. He has received the NACME Alumni Circle Award and a National Science Foundation CAREER Award.

Darryl Pines was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on July 13, 2012.

Accession Number

A2012.155

Sex

Male

Interview Date

7/13/2012

Last Name

Pines

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Schools

University of California, Berkeley

Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Search Occupation Category
First Name

Darryll

Birth City, State, Country

Oakland

HM ID

PIN05

Favorite Season

Fall

State

California

Favorite Vacation Destination

Anywhere Historic

Favorite Quote

Scientists study the world that is. Engineers design the world that will be.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

District of Columbia

Birth Date

8/28/1964

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Washington

Country

United States

Favorite Food

None

Short Description

Aerospace engineer and mechanical engineer Darryll Pines (1964 - ) is the dean of the A. James Clark School of Engineering at the University of Maryland, College Park.

Employment

Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

University of Maryland, College Park

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
0,0:5610,126:13738,233:14074,238:14494,244:14914,250:17182,291:17518,296:18106,304:19114,317:19534,323:20206,333:21886,356:25080,372:25324,377:25995,389:31058,536:31485,544:32766,580:33254,589:37330,625:37634,630:38090,637:38394,642:39078,656:39762,669:44626,762:45386,813:46602,837:52003,948:53849,999:56796,1068:58713,1104:59068,1115:59352,1120:61198,1167:61908,1182:62831,1200:63257,1207:72218,1351:72623,1357:74810,1424:75134,1429:75944,1445:77888,1476:81042,1521:86082,1611:88026,1664:89826,1708:93433,1718:94978,1735:97553,1766:98377,1775:100937,1788:101221,1793:102783,1818:104061,1841:110042,1906:128724,2083:129543,2094:130271,2105:135119,2177:136304,2199:138358,2227:141610,2240:142330,2271:142930,2282:144906,2314:145518,2325:146130,2338:146674,2349:147218,2358:148034,2374:148306,2379:148986,2391:149326,2397:150006,2408:153915,2426:154511,2431:156612,2440:156942,2446:157932,2470:158592,2482:159120,2491:159450,2497:159714,2502:160880,2508:163982,2552:169602,2622:170562,2637:170946,2642:172098,2651:173442,2669:174594,2679:175074,2685:176322,2700:182323,2755:182608,2761:182893,2767:183748,2785:184432,2803:184660,2808:184888,2813:185116,2818:185401,2824:189178,2877:189646,2888:193196,2932:193977,2946:196959,2994:200377,3013:200653,3019:202309,3061:202861,3071:203482,3083:203827,3089:204724,3104:205690,3122:206380,3133:207898,3171:208726,3195:209140,3202:209761,3216:210037,3224:219213,3365:220381,3385:221038,3395:224177,3455:227389,3561:227681,3566:228119,3573:228703,3586:232887,3602:233232,3608:234957,3638:235233,3643:236268,3666:236544,3671:237441,3687:237855,3694:238683,3710:242860,3745$0,0:2683,24:3267,33:3997,43:7866,153:9545,188:10567,213:11443,227:11881,234:13122,256:13779,268:15385,294:16553,313:20933,404:21444,412:23561,452:24364,467:24729,473:25021,478:26189,500:26846,514:27138,519:27868,530:28233,536:34200,544:34608,549:36342,577:40410,586:40750,592:41430,611:41974,620:42518,632:43062,655:45374,706:46054,719:46394,725:47210,740:47686,747:50066,795:50678,805:51154,820:51562,827:52378,842:56060,852:56510,860:58085,886:58685,896:59435,907:63860,986:64235,992:64535,997:64910,1003:65210,1008:68386,1016:70222,1082:70630,1089:70902,1094:77362,1220:77974,1239:78450,1247:80422,1280:80898,1288:81578,1300:83346,1352:84162,1367:88574,1378:89254,1389:89934,1406:90478,1417:94092,1474:96140,1528:96972,1544:97356,1551:99212,1598:99852,1612:100748,1637:101708,1657:102348,1669:105560,1677:106296,1687:107124,1698:108044,1709:110038,1721:110749,1733:111776,1747:112487,1758:113356,1770:113988,1779:115930,1790:116382,1795:116947,1801:117399,1806:119695,1821:119955,1826:120215,1831:120670,1841:121060,1850:121515,1859:121840,1865:122880,1878:124180,1906:124505,1912:124765,1917:126838,1928:128822,1961:129270,1969:130166,1987:130742,2001:133616,2033:135184,2052:136458,2068:137046,2073:137438,2078:138810,2097:139692,2109:144170,2139:145370,2164:149540,2216:150580,2232:151140,2240:151460,2245:154340,2296:156500,2338:157700,2358:158580,2373:158980,2379:167628,2533:168164,2548:176305,2654:179611,2727:179896,2733:180580,2747:182770,2756:183920,2769:184610,2775:186060,2793:186390,2799:186984,2810:187380,2818:189360,2863:189822,2871:190350,2881:191934,2914:192330,2920:192726,2931:196290,2995:196686,3002:197280,3018:197940,3031:198534,3041:198996,3053:199524,3063:200316,3078:200712,3084:201240,3100:201570,3106:202164,3119:207784,3146:208119,3152:209325,3180:209593,3186:213680,3273:214015,3279:217066,3350:218848,3400:219172,3408:219388,3413:220971,3427:221379,3440:222093,3455:222399,3463:222909,3474:223113,3479:223725,3498:223980,3504:226562,3534:226872,3541:227492,3555:227802,3561:228298,3575:228608,3581:229228,3595:229600,3603:229848,3608:230468,3622:231212,3639:231646,3647:233816,3689:234312,3698:239080,3721:239590,3727:254842,3810:257278,3856:257866,3865:258454,3874:258874,3880:263520,3929
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Darryll Pines' interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Darryll Pines lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Darryll Pines describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Darryll Pines describes his mother's childhood in Liverpool, England

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Darryll Pines describes his father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Darryll Pines describes his father's decision to join the U.S. Air Force and his parents meeting in Liverpool, England

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Darryll Pines talks about American servicemen who married British women while stationed in England

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Darryll Pines describes his parents' personalities and who he takes after

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Darryll Pines describes his earliest childhood memory

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Darryll Pines talks about his siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Darryll Pines describes his parents' careers

Tape: 1 Story: 12 - Darryll Pines describes the sights and sounds and smells of growing up

Tape: 1 Story: 13 - Darryll Pines talks about the Black Panther Party, the loss of jobs, and the gradual deterioration of the East Oakland neighborhood where he grew up

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Darryll Pines talks about the prominent entertainers and athletes who came from Oakland, California

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Darryll Pines talks about political activism in the San Francisco Bay Area

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Darryll Pines describes his exposure to technology

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Darryll Pines describes the neighborhood where he grew up in East Oakland

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Darryll Pines describes his mother's role in getting into Berkeley High School

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Darryll Pines describes his experience in grade school at Markham Elementary School and St. Benedict's Catholic School

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Darryll Pines describes watching the moon landing and meeting Neil Armstrong

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Darryll Pines talks about the major events of 1994

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Darryll Pines describes his relationship with his twin brother

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Darryll Pines talks about playing basketball

Tape: 2 Story: 11 - Darryll Pines describes his decision to become an engineer

Tape: 2 Story: 12 - Darryll Pines describes his decision to attend the University of California, Berkeley

Tape: 2 Story: 13 - Darryll Pines talks about his mentor and advisor, Daniel Mote

Tape: 2 Story: 14 - Darryll Pines talks about his interest in science fiction

Tape: 2 Story: 15 - Darryll Pines talks about political activism in Berkeley in the 1980s

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Darryll Pines talks about his decision to study mechanical engineering at the University of California, Berkeley

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Darryll Pines talks about the relationships he formed at the University of California, Berkeley

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Darryll Pines talks about decision to attend MIT and his dissertation on the control of structures in space

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Darryll Pines describes human powered aircraft

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Darryll Pines describes his Ph.D. dissertation research

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Darryll Pines talks about his doctoral advisor, Andy von Flowtow

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Darryll Pines talks about meeting his wife

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Darryll Pines describes his space research at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Darryll Pines describes his decision to work at the University of Maryland, College Park

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Darryll Pines describes his students' research in deep space navigation and uninhabited air vehicle systems

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Darryll Pines describes his professional relationship with Freeman Hrabowski

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Darryll Pines describes programs designed to increase minority student enrollment in STEM

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Darryll Pines describes the NASA CUIP program for the next generation of space vehicles

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Darryll Pines describes the SAMPEX program at NASA Goddard

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Darryll Pines describes his research with DARPA

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Darryll Pines talks about DARPA's technological contributions to modern-day society

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Darryll Pines describes his experience as chair of the aerospace engineering department at the University of Maryland

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Darryll Pines talks about the current generation of students in engineering and science

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Darryll Pines describes his students' efforts to use their engineering skills to have a positive impact on society

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Darryll Pines talks about the balance between his research and administrative roles

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Darryll Pines talks about recruiting minority students to the University of Maryland's College of Engineering

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Darryll Pines describes cutting edge research in science and engineering

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Darryll Pines talks about his hopes and concerns for the African-American community today

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Darryll Pines talks about what he would have done differently to prepare for his career

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Darryll Pines reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Darryll Pines talks about his family

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Darryll Pines describes how he would like to be remembered

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$3

DAStory

3$8

DATitle
Darryll Pines talks about decision to attend MIT and his dissertation on the control of structures in space
Darryll Pines describes his space research at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
Transcript
Okay, alright. Alright, now, okay, so MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Massachusetts] now, how did you choose MIT? Was it easy--well, if you can get in, you should choose it (laughter).$$Well, okay, you know, four years later after coming out of high school, I was a much smarter person, much wiser about the world. And I realized that, and I'm a very competitive person, so once I realized--I went to U. C. Berkeley [University of California, Berkeley] and I was able to do well. I realized that I wanted the biggest challenge. I wanted to take on the toughest challenge and I wanted to be at the best school this nation had to offer, and I felt that was MIT. And I wanted to also experience the East Coast, and so I applied to MIT, Stanford [University, Palo Alto, California], U.C. Berkeley, University of Washington [Seattle, Washington] and Cal Tech [California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, California]. The only school I didn't get into, and I won't hold it against them, was Cal Tech, and it really made me mad at the time, I mean, to be honest with you. And I still hold that letter today, right. And it's used, I've used that letter as ammunition for my entire life, to be honest with you. Even though this is on this tape, I'm just telling it like it is (laughter). You know, because I said I got into every school and I didn't get into Cal Tech, you gotta be kidding me, at that time, you know, twenty, twenty-one, twenty-one years old. So, I went to MIT, and being the competitive person that I am, I wanted to go to the best college, and I felt MIT was that school. And it actually turned out to be one of the best decisions I ever made in my life. And because I went to MIT, got admitted, obviously started my graduate program, met some fantastic people--I mean people who just are my colleagues and best friends today--I met a fantastic advisor who took me underneath his wing. His name was Andy von Flotow. He was--$$Can you spell that?$$Yeah. Andy, A-N-D-Y, von Flotow, V-O-W [space] F-L-O-T-O-W. And he was, Andy was a person who grew up in Canada and got his Ph.D. from Stanford [University] and ended up on the faculty at MIT in the aeronautics and astronomics department. Even though I was a student in mechanical engineering, Dr. von Flotow was willing to take me as a student, a graduate student, and do some research on space structures control. And at that time, in space research there was this interest in building these very large telescopes. I mean, telescopes, if you can imagine, ten kilometers in length, I mean ten kilometers in length in space, to look deep into the vacuum and see if there are other solar systems, civilizations, so forth. And one of the problems that these large structures had is that they were so long that they would vibrate, and therefore when they vibrated they would affect the focus of the instrument. So, the problem I worked on was could I develop a method that can control these structures to, you know, fractions of an arc, what we call the arc second of angle, very small fraction of an angle, to get the resolution that these instruments needed? And I ended up developing the sensor that could be used to control these vehicles of large spatial extent, and that's what I worked on for my Ph.D. But I worked on it for Andy von Flotow. And in so doing I met so many fantastic people at MIT, and really understood why I was in MIT, just like I had thought. I didn't know what it would be, what the experience would be, but the experience was even better than I could imagine. So, I truly enjoyed it, and to this day I feel like it was one of the best decisions of my entire life, was to go there and be educated at MIT, so--.$Okay, okay. Now, 1992, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory [in Livermore, California]. So, what was going on there?$$So, I chose Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory because at the time, even though it's a Department of Energy facility and tends to work on big physics projects--because Livermore's lab is dominated, again, by scientists as we had an earlier discussion about (laughter). So, big physics happens at Lawrence Livermore Lab. But what they were doing just before I got there is that they had this incredible space project that involved-- you may remember this, as under President [Ronald] Reagan's time, 'Star Wars', do you remember that? And during this time period he put a lot of money into a space shield for the United States that literally, for any intercontinental ballistic missile [ICBM] coming from Russia or anywhere, that we could put up and deploy a family of spacecraft that would not only look out for the intercontinental ballistic--ICBMs, but it would also shoot them down in their ascent trajectory. So, I joined that program. Honestly, I joined that program because it was spacecraft and I was excited about being a part of that, to be honest with you. And they had a lot of money. They had a billion dollars of money. Livermore had several hundreds of millions of dollars for this program, and they were looking at the time for a spacecraft engineer to help solve that problem. So, I was in heaven. I was like wow, I get to work on all this stuff, this is great. So, I went to Livermore and I became part of the main team that was working on this problem. And while we were working on that problem we got another big project which was called the Clementine Spacecraft, which was a demonstration program to demonstrate advanced technology that would help legitimize the Star Wars problem. That is, that you could detect ICBMs coming at you and you could shoot them down. So, Clementine was the demonstration project that demonstrated this could be done. So, my job was to do the navigation for the spacecraft, but also help design and analyze some of the instruments, the sensors, the optics that were used to track the ICBMs. So, this turned out to be a great project for me, because what happened was there was a major science part of the project. So, we were going to deploy the spacecraft. It was going to do an orbit around the moon and then after it did an orbit around the moon it was going to fly by an asteroid, the spacecraft. So, I, with a couple of colleagues at National Naval Research Lab was developing the navigation algorithms and the control algorithms for the vehicle. And it turned out that this particular spacecraft with the sensor sweep was the first spacecraft to discover water at the South Pole of the moon, which allows for life to exist on the moon. But no one had confirmed whether there was water on the moon and not at the South Pole. So, this did it at the South Pole. Using the hyper-spectra imagery system that we had, we were able to ascertain that indeed water was present at the South Pole. It was a major discovery in science, and it was such a major discovery in science at the time, that to this day a replica of the Clementine Spacecraft sits in the [National] Air and Space Museum [Smithsonian Institute, Washington, District of Columbia]. So, that was a proud moment for me personally to be a part of that program and a part of that accomplishment with my colleagues from Livermore and from Naval Research Lab. So, I was just lucky, again, in the right place and the right time there to work on that program. And then I worked on several other programs related to uninhabited air vehicles also, for Livermore up until about 1994.$$Okay, okay. That's big stuff. So '94 [1994], is that your last year with Lawrence Livermore?$$That's right. So I ended up having a great time. I worked there from 1992 actually to 1995.

Woodrow Whitlow, Jr.

Aerospace engineer and federal government administrator Woodrow Whitlow, Jr. was born on December 13, 1952 in Inkster, Michigan. A quick-learner, he excelled at math and science. Whitlow aspired to be a chemist until space missions in the 1960s captured his imagination, changing his career goal to astronaut. Whitlow received his B.S., M.S. and Ph.D. degrees in Aeronautics and Astronautics from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in 1974, 1975 and 1979, respectively.

Whitlow's long career with the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) began in 1979, when he was hired as a research scientist at the NASA Langley Research Center in Hampton, Virginia. At Langley, he specialized in fluid dynamics, aerodynamics, and aeroelasticity. He rose quickly to become a senior research scientist and headed various specialty branches in astrophysics and aeronautics. In 1994, Whitlow became the Director of the Critical Technologies Division in the Office of Aeronautics at NASA Headquarters in Washington, D.C. He then moved to the NASA John H. Glenn Research Center at Lewis Field in Cleveland, Ohio in 1998, where he served as the Director of Research and Technology, among other positions. Whitlow was made Deputy Director of the NASA John F. Kennedy Space Center in 2003 and oversaw launch-related services and activities until 2005 when he was appointed to Director of the NASA Glenn Research Center. In 2010, NASA Administrator Charles Bolden named Whitlow the Associate Administrator for the Mission Support Directorate at NASA Headquarters. He retired in August of 2013 and later became Executive in Residence at the Cleveland State University Washkewicz College of Engineering.

Throughout his career, Whitlow has written over forty technical papers, most in the areas of unsteady transonic flow, aeroelasticity and propulsion. His awards include NASA’s Distinguished Service Honor Medal—the Agency’s highest honor; the Presidential Rank of Distinguished Executive—the highest award for federal executives; Presidential Rank of Meritorious Executive; U.S. Black Engineer of the Year in Government; the NASA Exceptional Service Honor Medal; the NASA Equal Opportunity Honor Medal; the (British) Institution of Mechanical Engineers William Sweet Smith Prize; the Minorities in Research Science Scientist-of-the-Year Award; and the National Society of Black Engineers Distinguished Engineer of the Year Award. The American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics elected him as a Fellow in 2010. He also holds an honorary doctor of engineering degree from Cranfield University.

Woodrow Whitlow, Jr. was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on May 3, 2012.

Accession Number

A2012.070

Sex

Male

Interview Date

5/3/2012

Last Name

Whitlow

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Schools

Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Carver Elementary School

Fellrath Junior High School

Inkster High School

Search Occupation Category
Speakers Bureau

Yes

Speakers Bureau Availability

Any, with sufficient notice

First Name

Woodrow

Birth City, State, Country

Inkster

HM ID

WHI17

Speakers Bureau Preferred Audience

College students, adults, STEM faculty and students, technical companies and organizations

Speakers Bureau Honorarium

Yes - $3,000 - $5,000

Favorite Season

Fall, Spring

State

Michigan

Favorite Vacation Destination

Islands

Favorite Quote

Highlight a player when you see him in the street.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Ohio

Birth Date

12/13/1952

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Cleveland

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Lobster

Short Description

Aerospace engineer and federal government administrator Woodrow Whitlow, Jr. (1952 - ) has worked for National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) for over thirty years serving as Associate Administrator for Mission Support at NASA Headquarters and director of the NASA Glenn Research Center.

Employment

National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) Langley Research Center

National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA)

National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) John H. Glenn Research Center

National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) Jet Propulsion Laboratory John F. Kennedy Space Center

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
0,0:11440,223:12960,248:13360,254:13920,263:24904,395:26416,418:28936,453:29356,459:33220,528:38092,616:48610,690:51256,757:56254,813:57332,822:57920,829:66638,911:67310,921:69662,957:75762,1048:91468,1231:91880,1236:100108,1388:108398,1507:114036,1619:125322,1701:144300,1852:144895,1860:156237,2016:176614,2214:179370,2245:209080,2490:225996,2660:228445,2708:229788,2731:239854,2863:244508,2930:245218,2941:283976,3389:298035,3534:333124,3914:341010,3967:343850,3997:344312,4004:344851,4013:345467,4026:349968,4067:357066,4224:357430,4229:361522,4242:368816,4352:385824,4560:386209,4570:386517,4575:386825,4580:387364,4588:387749,4594:388211,4653:398070,4732:401558,4832:405236,4867:410780,4946:419380,5042$0,0:3960,56:8190,106:11520,139:14130,169:14850,179:26390,275:28090,297:30555,327:30980,333:31575,341:32510,354:40118,377:40558,383:41262,392:43814,432:83452,962:84124,973:84460,978:84880,984:86056,995:86980,1004:89920,1049:90256,1054:90676,1060:100188,1118:100892,1127:103004,1151:109956,1258:110660,1267:115017,1281:128470,1418:128870,1423:134329,1491:135590,1507
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Woodrow Whitlow's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Woodrow Whitlow lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Woodrow Whitlow describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about his mother, Willie Mae Whitlow

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Woodrow Whitlow describes his father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Woodrow Whitlow describes how his parents met

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Woodrow Whitlow describes his parents' personalities

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about his siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Woodrow Whitlow describes his childhood neighborhood

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Woodrow Whitlow describes the history of Inkster, Michigan

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Woodrow Whitlow describes the sights, sounds and smells of his childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Woodrow Whitlow describes his early education

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Woodrow Whitlow describes how the space race inspired him

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about his childhood interest in sports

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about his interest in science and in space

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Woodrow Whitlow describes his experience at Inkster High School

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about the 1967 Detroit riots

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about his exposure to Detroit-area museums

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Woodrow Whitlow describes his family's educational pursuits

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about the 1969 moon landing

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Woodrow Whitlow describes his and others' reactions to Dr. King's assassination

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about Star Trek

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Woodrow Whitlow describes his first impression of Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Woodrow Whitlow describes his experience at Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about his wife

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about the role of church in his life

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Woodrow Whitlow describes his doctoral research on unstable transonic flow

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Woodrow Whitlow describes his hiring at NASA's Langley Research Center

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about the influence of Katherine G. Johnson

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about Harriett Jenkins

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Woodrow Whitlow describes his work at NASA's Langley Research Center

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about the importance of space exploration in 1979

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about transonic flow and aircraft safety

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about Guion Bluford's space flight

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about wanting to become an astronaut

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Woodrow Whitlow describes his work on computer models and his desire to become an astronaut

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about NASA's Challenger disaster

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about the politics of space exploration

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Woodrow Whitlow describes his efforts to attract minority students to science

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about becoming the U.S. Black Engineer of the Year

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about Charles Bolden and Mae Jemison

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about greater acceptance of minorities at NASA

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Woodrow Whitlow describes his work as the Director of the Critical Technologies Division

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Woodrow Whitlow describes his work at the John Glenn Research Center

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about the future of aircraft engineering

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about his work at the Glenn Research Center

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about honors that he has received

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Woodrow Whitlow describes a typical day at work

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Woodrow Whitlow describes his contributions as a fellow of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about his legacy

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about the end of NASA's shuttle program

Tape: 6 Story: 10 - Woodrow Whitlow shares his hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 6 Story: 11 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about his family

Tape: 6 Story: 12 - Woodrow Whitlow talks about how he would like to be remembered

DASession

1$1

DATape

4$6

DAStory

1$4

DATitle
Woodrow Whitlow describes his experience at Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)
Woodrow Whitlow talks about his work at the Glenn Research Center
Transcript
Tell us your study schedule. You just told it to me off camera but--$$Oh, I would--of course I'm not an early morning person so I would try not--and the institute would open at nine o'clock so I'd try not to get 9 o'clock classes. But you know I would take the classes during the day and if there were breaks I would study. But then when I get back to my dorm room at night I would typically study to you know two, three, four o'clock in the morning every night. So it was--worked hard. But then on Thursday nights I would just study all night, wouldn't go to bed and because I knew if just make it through the classes on Friday then I had you know the weekend without having to go to classes to, you know to recover. So make it through Friday, study some. Friday evening then you know just kind of take a break on Friday nights and you know maybe go to a movie, go somewhere. You know we had the movie series on campus, go to a movie just rest and relax and then sleep late Saturday. And we'd go to the soul food, normally we'd go to the soul food restaurant on Saturday in Boston, Bob the chef. So we'd go down there. That was the big thing, we'd go to Bob the chef on Saturday, get you a good soul food meal and then come back and maybe, and start picking up the routine. If not Saturday night then first thing Sunday morning because--depending on you know what you had to turn in on Monday, you know maybe pick it up Saturday night. If not, maybe rest a little bit Saturday and then get up Sunday and start running again.$$Okay. Now who are some of your instructors there and yeah who are some of the instructors that you remember and what were they teaching you?$$I can remember of course Wes Harris was--he you now he taught fluid dynamics in the aeronautics department. But when he came I was--he came in my junior year and so we started working together. And so he ended up being my Masters Thesis supervisor and my Doctoral Thesis chairman. And so he's someone who really--he's the one who really taught me about academic excellence and so I remember him. And then people like Eugene Covert who taught aerodynamics, Judd Baron taught gas dynamics, Jack Kerabrock (ph.) taught propulsion systems, Jim Marr (ph.) taught structures. So these are all the professors in the aero department. And then there was Professor Orzag in the math department taught the advanced calculus courses and then the other--there was one guy, I did a concentration, under--humanities concentration in psychology. And there was one, Professor Hans Torber (ph.) I can remember. And I did it, I picked, I had to pick some humanities concentration and the reason I picked psychology is I had heard about this Hans Torber, this psychology professor. And I said well maybe he can make humanities interesting. So I--and he did. So I took--and he taught brain science. Then I took learning theory and then another, some other psychology courses. But those are some of the ones, you know--and then all the guys in the aero department, Professor Widnall and--Sheila Widnall [Sheila Marie Evans Widnall]--she actually became secretary of the air force for a while before she went back to MIT. And I talked about Professor Marr and instructors and just a great group of guys in the aero department who were Course 16 as we affectionately refer to it as. We don't do names at MIT, we do numbers.$$Really? You--$$Yeah, a course--$$People have numbers?$$Yeah, I can tell you the courses I took like my math course, I took 8--physics course is 801, 802, 803. My--because physics is Course 8. My math courses I took 1801, 1802 and 1803. And then I took advanced calculus, 18075, 18076. And then I took in Double E, a course 6.14 and the office is in Building 37 and the other aero is Building 35 and some was in Building 9. And so I don't know the names of a lot of stuff at MIT but I can tell you the numbers associated with it.$$Okay. Now what was--now was it exciting being around so many people with the same kind of focus of you know--?$$It was motivating, exciting and you know and you know it--and it, it really was. I'm at MIT, you know, you heard--I didn't know what MIT was but you know when you hear people talk about bright people, say oh yeah, he's going to go to MIT. Or you watch, you see it on TV, even now you say oh yeah, well this person's from MIT. And so yeah to be there in that environment--and at first it was a little intimidating. And you know the one thing, my freshman year you know these, hear these students at the other table and they were talking about some math thing and then they pulled out, a napkin out and they start writing on this napkin and then they left. And we were all sitting around and I picked the napkin up and I looked at it and I said this not even writing. Even I know that this is not correct what's on this napkin. So I said well, yeah well I can make it through here. So I went from, I'm going to go to MIT for one year and transfer to ended up staying there for nine years.$Okay. What were some of the highlights of your term as director of the NASA Glenn Research Center?$$Well when I became center director we really, the agency made a big change in direction and to be a viable center, we had to make a big change in direction. So leading that change to make us, to increase our emphasis on more space systems research and development to--we won major roles in what was then the Project Constellation which was the program to--Program Constellation to put people permanently on the moon and to go to Mars and so our work in developing a service module which would be the power, propulsion and communications for the capsule that the astronauts would ride in. Our role, went in a role there, went in a role and developed and upper state simulator for a test vehicle and that vehicle actually flew. So to be at the Kennedy Space Center when that thing lifted off with that upper stage that had been built by Glenn employees on it, that was a very proud moment and securing roles in things like electric propulsion for deep space missions and while continuing to excel in our traditional areas in aeronautics. And those were really high points is to see the center make this big turn and do it successfully and to increase the business base you know from less than 400 million to near 800 million dollars a year, that's--those are highlights.$$Okay. Now you were there until, for about five years, right?$$Yeah, I was there nearly years again and that was as center director.

Renaldo M. Jensen

Aerospace engineer and military officer Renaldo Mario Jensen was born on June 29, 1940, in New York, New York. His parents, Octave and Doris Davis Jensen, had roots in St. Croix and Antigua, respectively. Jensen attended St. Charles Borromeo School and graduated from Harlem’s Bishop Dubois High School in 1952. He served in the Reserve Officer Training Corps at North Carolina A&T State University, then transferred to Howard University where he graduated in 1958 with his B.S. degree in mechanical engineering. After enlisting in the United States Air Force, Jensen and Horace Russell became the first two African Americans to earn their M.S. degrees in aerospace engineering from the United States Air Force School of Technology at Dayton’s Wright Patterson Air Force Base in 1966. In 1970, Jensen received his Ph.D. degree in aerospace engineering, specializing in supersonic combustion, from Purdue University.

While serving for twenty years as an officer in the United States Air Force, Jensen was stationed in Florida, Colorado, and Germany; he also worked on the Minuteman missile crew at Malmstrom Air Force Base in Montana. Jensen, a combat crew commander, participated in the first successful launch of a dual mode intercontinental ballistic missile from Vandenberg Air Force Base. He joined the faculty of the Air Force School of Technology at Wright Patterson Air Force Base in 1967 and taught at the school until 1974. In 1978, Jensen resigned from the Air Force as a lieutenant colonel having received the Missile Combat Crew Award and the Air Force Commendation Medal. Jensen taught at Howard University and worked at the Pentagon before joining Ford Motor Company as an aerodynamics engineer. He became the director of minority supplier development in 1987, and in 2004, he awarded $3.7 billion of the $90 billion in Ford supply contracts to 309 minority suppliers.

Jensen is a member of the Greater Detroit Chamber of Commerce, the American Society for Mechanical Engineers, the American Institute for Aeronautics and Astronautics, the National Minority Business Development Council, the Combustion Institute, the Military Operations Research Society, and the Tau Beta Pi Engineering Honor Society. Also a member of the Minority Suppliers Hall of Fame, Jensen lives in Farmington Hills, Michigan with his wife Alicia, with whom he raised two children.

Accession Number

A2005.101

Sex

Male

Interview Date

4/8/2005

Last Name

Jensen

Maker Category
Middle Name

M.

Schools

Bishop Dubois High School

St. Charles Catholic School

St. Charles Borromeo School

First Name

Renaldo

Birth City, State, Country

New York

HM ID

JEN05

Favorite Season

Spring

Sponsor

National Science Foundation

State

New York

Favorite Vacation Destination

None

Favorite Quote

Don't spend maximum time with minimum people.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Michigan

Birth Date

6/29/1940

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Detroit

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Pork, Potatoes, Grapes

Short Description

Military officer and aerospace engineer Renaldo M. Jensen (1940 - ) was one of the first two African Americans to earn their M.S. degrees in aerospace engineering from the United States Air Force School of Technology at Dayton’s Wright Patterson Air Force Base. During the course of his career, Jensen worked with the United States Air Force, Howard University, the Pentagon, and Ford Motor Company.

Employment

United States Air Force

Ford Motor Company

Main Sponsor
Main Sponsor URL
Favorite Color

Black

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Renaldo Jensen's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Renaldo Jensen lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Renaldo Jensen talks about his mother's side of the family

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Renaldo Jensen talks about his father's side of the family

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Renaldo Jensen talks about his mother and childhood

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Renaldo Jensen describes his earliest childhood memory

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Renaldo Jensen describes the sights, sounds and smells of growing up

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Renaldo Jensen talks about his mother and growing up without his father

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Renaldo Jensen talks about his relationship with his extended family

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Renaldo Jensen talks about his Catholic school experience and childhood interests

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Renaldo Jensen talks about his decision to attend college

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Renaldo Jensen talks about his experience at Howard University

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Renaldo Jensen discusses his experience in the United States Air Force

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Renaldo Jensen talks about the challenges and responsibilities of being in the United States Air Force

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Renaldo Jensen talks about working at the Pentagon

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Renaldo Jensen talks about the Defense Readiness Condition system and the Cuban Missile Crisis

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Renaldo Jensen talks about U.S. Military testing and experimentation, part 1

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Renaldo Jensen talks about U.S. Military testing and experimentation, part 2

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Renaldo Jensen discusses going to work at Ford Motor Company

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Renaldo Jensen talks about his work with the Ford Motor Company Design Center

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Renaldo Jensen talks about becoming Ford Motor Company's Director of Supplier Diversity

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Renaldo Jensen talks about Ford Motor Company's Supplier Diversity Program

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Renaldo Jensen reflects on his opportunities and accomplishments

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Renaldo Jensen discusses the successes of Ford Motor Company's Supplier Diversity Program

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Renaldo Jensen talks about the challenges and responsibilities of working with suppliers

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Renaldo Jensen reflects on his work with Ford Motor Company

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Renaldo Jensen talks about his concerns for the African American Community

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Renaldo Jensen reflects on his legacy and how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Renaldo Jensen talks about his family

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Renaldo Jensen talks about his love of motorcycles

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Renaldo Jensen reflects on what he has learned and how he wants to be remembered

DASession

1$1

DATape

1$4

DAStory

11$3

DATitle
Renaldo Jensen talks about his decision to attend college
Renaldo Jensen talks about the challenges and responsibilities of working with suppliers
Transcript
So, from what it sounds like, you pretty much knew you were going to college, I guess?$$Oh, yes, there wasn't a question. When I, came time to go to college, my mother [Doris Davis] had saved money. And it wasn't a question of are you going to college? She said, which one are you going to?$$Was it the same for your sister?$$Yes, yes. I tell you. She was an amazing woman who really believed that education was the key to the future. And that's the West Indian upbringing. You know, you work hard, but you will be educated. You "will" be educated. There was never a question of us not going to college.$$Okay, so how did you decide on which college you were going to when you were a senior?$$A couple of ways. I wanted to go to Cornell [Cornell University], Ithaca, New York, at the time. But they wouldn't, they were kind of reluctant to accept African Americans at the time, okay. So my sister college before me. She went to North Carolina College in Durham [North Carolina]. And--$$Was that a black college?$$Yes, a historically black university. And I wanted to, I guess being her sibling, I wanted to be closer so I went to, I wanted to go into the Air Force. I wanted to go into ROTC [Reserve Officers' Training Corps]. And Howard [Howard University, Washington, District of Columbia]--and A and T College in Greensville, North Carolina [North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University] had an Air Force ROTC program, one of the few black colleges that was available to us at the time, had an Air Force ROTC, Reserve Officers' Training Corp, a program. And I went to A and T. And interesting enough, at A and T, I got into the Air Force ROTC, and I majored in science. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I just wanted to be in the Air Force, I guess. So I just picked something that I could use if I had to fall back on it in the Air Force. And I picked science, and at that time, general, really, first year especially, take the basic math, English, whatever. And interesting enough, the classes were so easy, and I took this as a function of my Catholic school upbringing and teaching and learning. But I never bought books (laughter), never. The money I'd use to buy books, I used it for something else and excelled in all the classes. I never really had to study because they were three years behind in what I had already learned from coming out of the Catholic school. So I excelled and I said, this is not for me. This is not--so I transferred to Howard University.$You've had calls where people call to ask like, what can I make to--$$Yeah, exactly right. And you know, you can laugh at them [suppliers] and say, oh, this is ridiculous, but I believe they're sincere, that they really want to have a business. They really want to provide something and here's an opportunity they think that maybe they could take advantage of, and here Ford [Ford Motor Company] is reaching out to this diverse community for whatever reason. They may not know, but they say, here's an opportunity, and why don't I just ask. So they call me and say, you run the program for? Yes, I do. He says, well, I'm an entrepreneur. I wanna start a business. I wanna supply Ford because you guys are doing such a fantastic job in developing suppliers, and you won the award. So what can I do and what is it that you need that I can help you by providing? Okay, and, of course, we say, you've got to be in business to do business with us. We are not in the business of putting you in business. We're in the business of doing business with you. So you have to have a business. You have to have a skill. You have to have a product that is of value to us now and in the long run. So once I explain it to them, they understand. And then you get some really irate guys who says, well, you're a prime contractor to the federal government. Yes, we are. Oh, you're, being a prime contractor to the federal government, you have a contract with the federal government. I said, yes, we do. Well, the SBA [Small Business Administration] says that you must be doing, you must, as a prime contractor, do business with diverse groups. I say, yes, they do. Well, I'm a diverse group. I said, okay, what do you provide? He says, I provide furniture, and I know you're sitting in a chair in your office, and you have a desk there that you're writing on. I said, yes, we do. He said, well, I'm a small business. You're a prime contractor. I sell office furniture, so you must do business with me. I said, really? He says, yes, because you serve as prime to the federal government, and you must do business with small businesses by law. I said, okay. How many types of furniture do you have? How many models? How many models and brands do you stock? He said, well, I stock four. I said, okay, who are they? Steelcase and a couple of others, three others. I said, okay. How many are out there? He said, what do you mean? I said, how many are out there besides the four that you stock, how many other models or brands of furniture are out there that you elected not to stock, except for the four that you do stock? He said, well, there're about seven others. I said, so you're making a decision on who you do business with, right? He said, yeah. I said, well, bingo, same thing we do too. You're a small business. We must do business with small businesses, but we make a distinction of who we do business with, and your approach is, I don't believe, is in the best interest of Ford Motor Company or Ford Motor Company doing business with you. Bam. Then that's it, conversation over. But that's the type of calls you can, you get. And, you know, and it can get kind of sarcastic, but because they're trying bogard (ph.) your way in to say, hey, if you don't do business with me, you're a racist. Or if you don't do business with me, you're not obeying the law so therefore, I'm a small, and you've been discriminating against small businesses all your professional life, and I'm a small business. You're gonna discriminate, be discriminating against me, I'm a take you to task. (Unclear) deal with it. But again, in the long run, we do business with those who we feel add value to our long-term process of satisfying our customers, the people like you and the public.