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H. Melvin Ming

Corporate media executive H. Melvin Ming was born Hilton Austin Melvin Ming in Hamilton, Bermuda. He is one of three sons of Hester and Calvin Ming. After completing his early education in Bermuda, Ming moved to the United States and graduated with his B.A. degree from Temple University in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in 1967.

Upon graduation, Ming was hired as an Auditor and Certified Public Accountant (CPA) for the accounting firm Coopers Lybrand (PricewaterhouseCoopers) in Philadelphia and Washington, D.C. In 1973, at the age of twenty-nine, Ming became only the seventh African American to achieve professional standing as a CPA in Pennsylvania. After a successful twelve year tenure at Coopers Lybrand, Ming left to become the Assistant Director for East of the River Health Association, a primary care Community Health Center in Southeast Washington, D.C. Ming then served for two years as Vice President, Finance and Administration, for the National Urban Coalition, an urban policy analysis research non-profit corporation. He then led a successful financial turn-around of National Public Radio (NPR) in Washington, D.C. Ming went on to lead three more major financial restructurings at Channel Thirteen/WNET in New York, WQED in Pittsburgh and the Museum of Television and Radio in New York and Los Angeles. In 1999, Ming became the Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer of Sesame Workshop in New York, the creators of the popular children’s television show Sesame Street. In 2002, Ming became Chief Operating Officer at Sesame Workshop. In 2006, Ming became the Director of Westwood, Inc., the largest independent producer and distributor of programming for commercial radio in the nation.

Ming serves on boards including the trustee of Regional Conferences Retirement Board, where he serves as one of three outside directors overseeing the $94 million retirement fund; First Children Finance, a non-profit organization created to meet the growing demand for quality early care and education, especially in low-income communities; and Atlantic Union College, a liberal arts college of 600 students located in South Lancaster, Massachusetts.

Ming was married in 1972 and has two children, Calvin Ming, thirty-five, and Jerilynne Ming, thirty-four. He also has two grandchildren, Carina and Cameron Ming.

Ming was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on February 6, 2008.

Accession Number

A2008.013

Sex

Male

Interview Date

2/6/2008

Last Name

Ming

Maker Category
Middle Name

Melvin

Occupation
Schools

Victor Scott Primary School

Berkeley Institute

Temple University High School

Temple University

Search Occupation Category
First Name

H.

Birth City, State, Country

Pembroke, Bermuda

HM ID

MIN04

Favorite Season

Spring

Favorite Vacation Destination

Caribbean

Favorite Quote

What You Are Speaks So Loudly That I Can't Hear A Word You Say.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

New York

Birth Date

8/22/1944

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

New York

Country

Bermuda

Favorite Food

Pie (Cassava)

Short Description

Media executive H. Melvin Ming (1944 - ) was the director of Westwood, Inc., the nation's largest independent producer and distributor of programming for commercial radio. He was also the president and CEO of the Sesame Workshop.

Employment

PricewaterhouseCoopers, LLP (formerly Coopers and Lybrand)

East of the River Health Clinic

National Urban Coalition

National Public Radio

WNET-TV

WQED

Museum of Television and Radio

Sesame Workshop

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
0,0:15260,296:15608,301:16391,313:18131,350:20132,385:20567,391:40022,613:42542,673:45054,706:46494,731:48798,785:53650,838:80707,1162:88760,1175:118996,1685:123880,1744:130075,1837:144010,1963:144535,1971:149130,1991:169736,2290:170146,2296:178244,2448:179700,2472:180337,2480:180792,2486:181884,2503:200718,2778:228954,3163:229998,3203:243684,3307:245432,3336:245800,3341:257182,3563:259530,3608$0,0:2403,57:2937,62:3649,71:4895,93:6497,120:7476,128:7832,136:8455,144:11303,240:12727,256:27595,443:27960,449:35154,566:38568,609:38958,615:41688,664:42702,683:43170,690:47694,775:53161,795:56180,811:60688,878:68574,919:72318,1009:75810,1072:76285,1078:84886,1296:85798,1309:89350,1323:89902,1333:94650,1373:96586,1400:97114,1408:98258,1422:98786,1428:114822,1665:116620,1679:120585,1784:120845,1789:125320,1838:129894,1875:130614,1889:130974,1895:131478,1903:131766,1908:132054,1913:135062,1951:136468,1983:140195,2035:143288,2054:149325,2118:150600,2137:151280,2147:152385,2165:152810,2171:153575,2181:159200,2273:159626,2279:162040,2309:163389,2349:164099,2390:174530,2562:174814,2567:175311,2578:176092,2591:176447,2597:177228,2612:178790,2647:179358,2656:179855,2664:190154,2783:190658,2791:191594,2811:195894,2852:197027,2864:197851,2873:203590,2947:204626,2971:212004,3155:214968,3205:217628,3248:220668,3318:231046,3478:232060,3496:237832,3582:247582,3733:251740,3766:252972,3790:254435,3819:259585,3877:265025,3974:266470,4005:266810,4010:268000,4037:270040,4080:275768,4117:280890,4179:287754,4271:303916,4468:313172,4588:316142,4630:317330,4641:320250,4650:320715,4656:322389,4679:324062,4686:325218,4713:327710,4753
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - H. Melvin Ming shares the history of his surname

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - H. Melvin Ming describes the history of Bermuda

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Slating of H. Melvin Ming's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - H. Melvin Ming lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - H. Melvin Ming describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - H. Melvin Ming talks about his maternal grandparents' occupations

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - H. Melvin Ming recalls his early musical influences

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - H. Melvin Ming talks about his community in Bermuda

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - H. Melvin Ming describes his paternal relatives' occupations

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - H. Melvin Ming talks about his father and maternal grandfather

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - H. Melvin Ming describes his early experiences of religion

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - H. Melvin Ming describes his earliest memories of education

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - H. Melvin Ming describes his education on Bermudian history

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - H. Melvin Ming talks about race relations in Bermuda

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - H. Melvin Ming describes the smells and sounds of his childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - H. Melvin Ming describes the traditional architecture in Bermuda

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - H. Melvin Ming describes his early education

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - H. Melvin Ming talks about his brothers

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - H. Melvin Ming recalls his early exposure to business

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - H. Melvin Ming recalls his mother's work in Bermuda's realty industry

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - H. Melvin Ming remembers visiting the United States

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - H. Melvin Ming talks about his early education in Bermuda

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - H. Melvin Ming remembers moving to the United States

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - H. Melvin Ming recalls his decision to study accounting

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - H. Melvin Ming remembers his search for an accounting position

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - H. Melvin Ming recalls being drafted into the U.S. Army

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - H. Melvin Ming describes lessons from his time in the U.S. Army

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - H. Melvin Ming recalls joining the National Association of Black Accountants

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - H. Melvin Ming describes his experiences as an accountant at Lybrand, Ross Brothers and Montgomery

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - H. Melvin Ming recalls his colleagues and clients at Lybrand, Ross Brothers and Montgomery

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - H. Melvin Ming describes his experiences of discrimination at the firm of Coopers and Lybrand

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - H. Melvin Ming talks about his response to discrimination in the workplace

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - H. Melvin Ming describes the qualities of a good accountant

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - H. Melvin Ming recalls opening an branch of Coopers and Lybrand in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - H. Melvin Ming remembers meeting his wife

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - H. Melvin Ming describes his relationship with his wife

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - H. Melvin Ming remembers his college classmate, Bill Cosby

Tape: 4 Story: 10 - H. Melvin Ming recalls his disinterest in fraternities

Tape: 4 Story: 11 - H. Melvin Ming remembers working at the National Urban Coalition

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - H. Melvin Ming recalls his tenure at the National Urban Coalition

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - H. Melvin Ming describes his challenges at National Public Radio

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - H. Melvin Ming describes his success at National Public Radio

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - H. Melvin Ming recalls working at WNET-TV in New York City

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - H. Melvin Ming remembers working at WQED Multimedia in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - H. Melvin Ming remembers his transition to the Museum of Television and Radio

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - H. Melvin Ming recalls how he came to join the Sesame Workshop

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - H. Melvin Ming describes the initiatives at the Sesame Workshop

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - H. Melvin Ming talks about the educational value of 'Sesame Street'

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - H. Melvin Ming talks about the influence of television on children

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - H. Melvin Ming talks about the production of South Africa's 'Takalani Sesame'

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - H. Melvin Ming describes the 'Sesame Street' programs in Islamic countries

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - H. Melvin Ming talks about the challenges facing the Sesame Workshop

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - H. Melvin Ming describes the plans for the future of the Sesame Workshop

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - H. Melvin Ming talks about his career plans

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - H. Melvin Ming reflects upon his life

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - H. Melvin Ming reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - H. Melvin Ming talks about the importance of diversity on 'Sesame Street'

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - H. Melvin Ming describes his hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - H. Melvin Ming reflects upon his success

Tape: 7 Story: 3 - H. Melvin Ming describes how he would like to be remembered

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$6

DAStory

4$2

DATitle
H. Melvin Ming remembers moving to the United States
H. Melvin Ming talks about the production of South Africa's 'Takalani Sesame'
Transcript
I guess the year before the final year [at Berkeley Institute, Pembroke Bermuda], my--that's the day that I came home one Thursday afternoon and the family's there and, there's a family counsel and my mother [Hester Bean Ming] said to me, "You're going to Philadelphia [Pennsylvania]. There you will finish high school and you'll go to college, and you're gonna go to Aunt Ida." Now there were no colleges in Bermuda when I at the time, and the ambition of a young boy like me was usually to get your moped, get your own bicycle. Now here maybe get your car, there was get your moped. And see and if you were sixteen you could get your license and you can get your own transportation, then man you're, you're, you're free as a bird. And that was sort of the, that was the horizon getting a, a bike, and$$So did they send you out be, before you got your moped?$$My mother wisely said that, "You need an education and here's, here's where you gonna go." And I was excited 'cause I'm going to Philadelphia, so I never owned my own moped, my own bike. I went to Philadelphia instead, I was sixteen years old, and I was met at the Phil- Philadelphia airport. Went to live with Aunt Ida, Ida Pitts [ph.] and Uncle Ed, Edwin, Edward Pitts [ph.], and these (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) Now these your father's relatives?$$No these, these--Aunt Ida was a--excuse me, I'm gonna sneeze--a cousin of my [maternal] grandmother [Helen Bean], and when you're in, in the islands, it's who do you know in the states? And, who can watch over you 'cause you're only sixteen years old. So I came to the states and was, it was in January, January '62 [1962], and I had to do one year of high school. 'Cause to get into college here I didn't have any history, so I had to do courses like American history. And I went to Temple University High School [Philadelphia, Pennsylvania] and completed my necessary requirements. And that was a, boy was that an experience, I'm sixteen years old, I'm in a class in Temple Prep they called it at the time, this is Temple High School. With, now I know what it was, then I didn't know, veterans, and these were veterans who were on the G.I. Bill [Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944], who had returned from then Southeast Asia doing whatever it was. And these guys for the most part, they were serious about getting whatever they, they were doing. And I'm this kid in there with all of these--and man that was, that was an eye opener, because these people worked at school. And I was you know you get 50 percent and you're okay, you passed, no you had, a 70 or 75 [percent] and to get an A man you had to get like 96 [percent] (laughter) on a test. I never heard of such a thing, I'm in this environment and didn't have good study habits, didn't know really how to study and struggling to compete. And being reminded, I had a counselor old guy he said, "Why, why don't you try this, American history. Make little note cards of, of important dates that you have to remember and write them on the note card. Last thing before you go to bed, recite them, memorize them, and first thing in the morning, get up and that's the first thing you see." And man, I tried that and it started to work and then he said, "Wherever you write a date, don't just remember the date, remember or know a pertinent fact that will remind you of the date." And that's, how I learned, learned to study, and it took me a little time, but I got, I got to it and then it. Man it, then I start getting good grades, I start feeling good and a nerd glasses and all that good stuff.$$(Laughter).$That's what I was wondering, I don't know, is there, you find cultural challenges around the world trying to do 'Sesame Street' show in another country that may have a different cultural (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) Yes.$$--standard or different mores about how to--$$Yeah.$$--approach different things?$$Yes and the way we, we, we deal with them, what we have learned having done almost thirty of these, what we call co-productions. The worst thing we can do is take an American show and then just subtitle it with the local language and say go do it, doesn't work. There are, that, that's only worked where people wanna be American, and there are very few places in the last twenty years with that's what the, (laughter) that's what the deal is. Our approach is, we begin with engaging people that are good advocates or representatives of the education objectives of a community. So we were asked by SABC way back when to sell them 'Sesame Street,' and the organization [Sesame Workshop], I was not here, nothing to do with it. The organization said no, and for eight years these requests were made and we did not sell the 'Sesame Street' shows to South Africa, apartheid and part of the boycott--$$SABC, South African Broadcasting company (simultaneous).$$(Simultaneous) South African Broadcasting Corporation. After the change there, we were approached and we considered doing a 'Sesame Street' production in South Africa. And there is one it's called 'Takalani Sesame,' and the approach we used there is the way we do it in where we're asked. Who are the local voices that can represent what of the needs of children and how media can address those needs? So we have our researchers here, we dispatched them to go and find people that we ought to have a conversation with about how we can make content that works for the local child. A broadcaster who will broadcast it, local funding that will support it, and if not local funding, international funding that will support it. And then we go in country and select a producer, and hire writers and actually try to create the content right there. We become teachers at first and then advisors the local producers that we hire to go in and make the shows. And the consequence is the South African show is South African, they don't just have American characters they have their own characters. But their curriculum is one that they valued, they wanted AIDS [acquired immunodeficiency syndrome] in the curriculum, and we said no. 'Cause we didn't know how to teach AIDS or prevention whatever. They said, "Our children are being stigmatized in school and their learning is being retarded because people try not to associate with them. Because they are victims of, of AIDS," parents died all that. And we ended up working with them created a special Muppet called Kami which on this show models behavior that if children copied they'd be safe. So washing of hands you know and that kind of stuff, but also you can play with Kami just because she's HIV [human immunodeficiency virus] positive, doesn't mean you'll, if you play with her, you will get the disease. And we've got now the research coming back corroborating and validating that this has been important in moving how children see these diseases. Now it took me a visit there to see why this was such a important thing. You walk up to the, in Johannesburg [South Africa], the department of education, on one side of the wall they have painted on their educational objectives. Eradication of poverty, nation building, language commonalty things like that, and on the left hand side of it they've got their AIDS policy. And I asked, "Why is that," and they said, "We have lost, and we are losing more professionals in the nursing and teaching than any other group. And as we are losing teachers, it's impacting children in the classroom, so we can't be silent on this." And my point is they helped us to figure out how to, on a preschooler show, treat the subject how to deal with it. We got criticism here, but over there, it's, it's, it's, it works. So there are local needs and there are more AIDS and there are practices and we aim to let that be curriculum based as we included in the show. As long as it doesn't violate what we believe are universal and good values, and we use our subjective measures here. We didn't tend not to teach religion obviously politics and segment divisions like that we tend not. Because for a child it's important they learn how to work together, how not to work together. And what can we agree on? There's such universal values as honesty, the value of education, sharing, basic skills, ABCs, one, two three. Gender, it's important for girls to learn as well as boys to learn.

James Hill, Jr.

Accountant James Hill, Jr. was born in Baltimore on August 20, 1941, to Joyce and James Hill, Sr. Hill graduated from Central State University with a B.S. in accounting in 1964, and received his M.B.A. in personnel administration and accounting in 1967 from the University of Chicago. He is CPA-licensed in Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, Ohio and Wisconsin.

In 1964, Hill began his career as a cost accountant for Union Carbide in New York, where he stayed for one year. After receiving his M.B.A., he began working as a Chicago staff auditor for Alexander Grant & Company. Between 1968 and 1970, Hill worked as the deputy director of the Chicago Economic Development Corporation. In February 1972, he founded his own accounting firm. In 1975 he took on a partner to become Hill, Taylor, Certified Public Accountants where he presides today as chairman and CEO.

Hill has received numerous awards and honors for both his professional and community work. His professional affiliations include the American Institute of CPAs, the Illinois CPA Society, the National Black Association of Accountants and the National Black MBA Association. He is a board member of various community and nonprofit organizations, including the Illinois Institute of Technology, the Chicagoland Chamber of Commerce, the Better Government Association, Citizen Information Service, the Chicago Commons Association, the Economic Club of Chicago, the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition, and the Chicago Economic Advisory Committee. He is also a council member to the graduate business schools at both the University of Chicago and the University of Illinois.

Hill married Sheree in 1995. He is father to two adult sons, James III and Brian.

Accession Number

A2003.007

Sex

Male

Interview Date

1/15/2003

Last Name

Hill

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Schools

Dunbar High School

Central State University

University of Chicago

First Name

James

Birth City, State, Country

Baltimore

HM ID

HIL03

Favorite Season

Summer

State

Maryland

Favorite Vacation Destination

Bermuda

Favorite Quote

Begin Today To Mold The You of Tomorrow.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Illinois

Birth Date

8/20/1941

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Chicago

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Fish, Vegetables

Short Description

Business chief executive James Hill, Jr. (1941 - ) owned the accounting firm, Hill, Taylor, Certified Public Accountants.

Employment

Union Carbide Corporation

Alexander Grant & Company

Chicago Economic Development Corporation

Hill, Taylor Certified Public Accountants

Favorite Color

Green

Timing Pairs
0,0:5320,63:20051,292:26751,424:27488,442:35300,509:63586,840:76136,1001:77504,1025:78584,1050:79664,1065:86720,1202:100122,1451:102168,1576:125026,1930:125458,1937:143802,2340:155460,2499$0,0:15066,312:16686,344:17577,357:21870,440:43750,752:46975,834:52480,865:53000,881:53260,886:60475,1015:61320,1030:64245,1097:64570,1103:86818,1521:90316,1595:102015,1760:112675,1972:123332,2106:124160,2120:136840,2353
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of James Hill's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - James Hill lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - James Hill describes his family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - James Hill talks about his father, James Hill, Sr.

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - James Hill describes his mother, Joyce Lee Hill

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - James Hill talks about how his parents met and his siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - James Hill describes the sights, sounds, and smells of Baltimore, Maryland

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - James Hill describes his interest in sports as a boy

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - James Hill talks about his elementary school experiences

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - James Hill remembers attending Dunbar High School in Baltimore, Maryland

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - James Hill recalls his high school activities

Tape: 1 Story: 12 - James Hill talks about his post-high school plans

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - James Hill talks about deciding to attend Central State University

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - James Hill describes attending Central State University in Wilberforce, Ohio

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - James Hill describes his professors and the president of Central State University

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - James Hill talks about pledging the Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity at Central State University

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - James Hill talks about majoring in accounting at Central State University

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - James Hill describes the Civil Rights Movement

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - James Hill remembers his first accounting job at Union Carbide in Niagara Falls, New York

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - James Hill describes Niagara Falls, New York in 1964

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - James Hill talks about getting his MBA from the University of Chicago

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - James Hill talks about his reasons for taking a job at a CPA firm in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - James Hill talks about his divorce and children

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - James Hill remembers working for Graham Thornton and the Chicago Economic Development Corporation

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - James Hill recalls briefly entering the car wash business in 1970

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - James Hill describes starting his own accounting firm in 1972

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - James Hill describes his accounting firm's specialty areas

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - James Hill describes the highlights of his accounting career

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - James Hill talks about his accounting work with nonprofits

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - James Hill gives advice to young people who are interested in accounting

Tape: 3 Story: 10 - James Hill shares his view on the Arthur Andersen scandal

Tape: 3 Story: 11 - James Hill describes his hopes and concerns for the black community

Tape: 3 Story: 12 - James Hill talks about his volunteer activities

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - James Hill describes the technological changes in accounting since the 1960s

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - James Hill talks about ethics in accounting

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - James Hill reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - James Hill talks about his father's pride in his success

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - James Hill describes how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - James Hill talks about the future of his accounting firm

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - James Hill talks about the key to business success

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - James Hill reflects upon his skills

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - James Hill describes how small nonprofits do not understand accounting

Tape: 4 Story: 10 - James Hill talks about his business partner, Kenneth Yu

Tape: 4 Story: 11 - James Hill describes ABLE, Alliance of Business Leaders and Entrepreneurs

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - James Hill narrates his photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$3

DAStory

3$7

DATitle
James Hill remembers working for Graham Thornton and the Chicago Economic Development Corporation
James Hill describes the highlights of his accounting career
Transcript
So who did you get hired by after you got your certification?$$After I got--I wasn't certified. What happened after I got my MBA, I got accepted to Graham Thornton. I had done an internship with them, they were called Alexander Graham at the time and they hired me as an intern. I was the first black to work for them also in the history of their company. And so I worked for them and then after I got--after I finished school, I went to work for them full time. So that's how I gained my experience. I still have an excellent relationship with them even today as we speak.$$Now this takes us--where are we now in terms of time?$$We're in 1967, that's when I graduated and that's when I started to work for them. So I worked for them for a couple of years and then I got an opportunity I couldn't refuse. I went to work for Chicago Economic Development Corporation and they made me a job offer I couldn't refuse because at the time they were going to make me the number two person, I was very young then. I was like twenty five/twenty six. They had about twenty five people that I was going to be in charge of and they were a nonprofit organization so they were totally out of accounting. I still had not gotten my CPA [Certified Public Accountant] at that point in time but I had the experience now. I could take the exam but you still had to have the experience in those days. So I had the experience but once you had a Master's degree that gave you years of experience automatically. In the state of Illinois, I think you only needed one year's experience or that Master equivalent so I had that. So I was able to take it or it might have been two years because I had the extra year. But anyway I went to work for Union Carbide-I mean, I'm sorry, I went to work for Chicago Economic Development Corporation. I was there number two man there and so I stayed there until 1970. The reason why I left because the person that was my boss whose name was Garland Guice who is deceased now. He was a young man, he was only about five/six years older than me so I had nowhere to go. I mean being the number two man is fine if you are older, if that happened today and I was the number two man, I probably would stay on longer. But when you're twenty five/twenty six years old and you're the number two man, you don't have no place to go so if you've got ambition then you want to do something else. But by then I wasn't sure whether or not I wanted to go back into a corporation, so.$What are the--looking back on this, what are--I don't know much about accounting but what are the highlights of a career as an accountant? Are there some memorable--(simultaneous) (unclear)?$$I think some of the highlights of being able to be a trailblazer. We've been a trailblazer for the state, we were the first minority firm to do state auditing and that has open the door for other minority firms to do state auditing. We were the first minority firm to do any work for corporations here in this state, that's opened the door for other minority firms to do it. I was the first black to work for Union Carbide as a cost accountant or as an accountant, I'm sure they've got other blacks now in their accounting departments worldwide. I was the first to work for Graham Thornton, again that's open the door for other blacks to work there as accountants. So these have been some highlights in my career that I think, that's been good. I'm also very--I've been very involved in the profession. I was on the state board of directors of the Illinois CPA Society. I served on that board for three years. I was also on the state board of accountancy, I was appointed by Governor [James R.] Thompson on the state board of accountancy. I served five years on that, I believe. I've been on committees with the American Institute of CPAs, so I've been on two or three committees with them. So I've been very involved there. I headed the task force for the State of Illinois to deal with whether or not we should do quality review and quality review means that we get audited. So we did a study on that to determine whether or not the State of Illinois wanted to have quality review which they did do--a peer review we call it. So those are some of the highlights that we've had and also the fact that we've maintained a very good reputation over the years. People know us, people know our firm, they know what we do. If you talk to anybody about accounting, not just being a minority CPA, we're noted now as being a good CPA firm. You know, years ago you try to sell it based on minority but we don't try and sell it on that now. We try to sell it on our experience and what we do and what we do best and that's how we do. We can compete favorably with anybody our size and our size standards on what we do. So that's how, what we look at.