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Alfred Msezane

Research physicist Alfred Z. Msezane was born on December 31, 1938 in South Africa. His father, Albert, was a businessman and his mother, Esther, a housewife. Msezane enrolled in the University of South Africa in 1960, where he studied the shape and behavior of one of the most fundamental particles – the electron. Msezane graduated from the University of South Africa in 1964 with his B.S. degree in physics. Msezane then travelled to Canada to conduct research and study at the University of Saskatchewan in Ontario, Canada, where he received his M.S. degree in physics in 1968. Msezane returned to South Africa for a year to conduct research at the Nuclear Physics Research Unit of Witwaterstrand University. Msezane received his Ph.D. degree in physics from the University of Western Ontario in 1973.

Msezane started his long career as a college professor at the University of New Brunswick in 1973 and became a physics instructor in 1976. Msezane immigrated to United States from Canada to complete his postdoctoral research at the Georgia State University in 1974. From 1978 to 1980, he served as a visiting professor at Louisiana State University. In 1980, Msezane joined the faculty of Morehouse College as an assistant professor of physics. He left Morehouse College in 1983 to become a professor at Atlanta University and served as chair of the physics department from 1986 to 1989. In 1988, Atlanta University merged with Clark University to become Clark Atlanta University, and Msezane remained on as a professor of physics. Msezane is the director of the Center for Theoretical Studies of Physical Systems (CTSPS) at Clark Atlanta University. His research team investigates mathematical physics theory, solid matter, and image processing. Msezane’s research on electron interaction with matter and electron configuration within the atom has resulted in over 260 research papers published in scholarly journals.

Msezane is also a member of several professional societies, including the American Physical Society (APS) and the National Society of Black Physicists (NSBP). Msezane was awarded an Honorary Doctorate of Science degree from the University of Fort Hare (South Africa) in 1998, and is a recipient of the World University Service Scholarship.

Alfred Msezane works in Atlanta, Georgia.

Alfred Msezane was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on December 11, 2012.

Accession Number

A2012.245

Sex

Male

Interview Date

12/11/2012

Last Name

Msezane

Maker Category
Middle Name

Z.

Occupation
Schools

Western University

University of Saskatchewan

University of South Africa

Search Occupation Category
First Name

Alfred

HM ID

MSE01

Favorite Season

Spring

Favorite Vacation Destination

None

Favorite Quote

I don't have till the second coming.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Georgia

Birth Date

12/31/1938

Speakers Bureau Region City

Atlanta

Country

South Africa

Favorite Food

None

Short Description

Physicist Alfred Msezane (1938 - ) , an internationally renowned theoretical physicist, is the director of the Center for Theoretical Studies of Physical Systems (CTSPS) at Clark Atlanta University.

Employment

Witwatersrand University

University of Western Ontario

Georgia State University

University of New Brunswick

Louisiana State University

Morehouse College

Atlanta University

Clark Atlanta University

Favorite Color

Navy Blue

Timing Pairs
0,0:1674,27:3162,47:4836,70:23715,472:32400,527:35800,567:38520,620:38860,625:39285,631:43669,667:45489,686:46399,699:47673,715:59488,906:77630,1049$0,0:3116,45:6642,143:7052,150:7708,160:8036,166:9102,183:9676,192:10004,197:10414,204:10906,211:11234,216:17850,229:23870,262:24870,274:31600,316:32160,326:38320,427:45152,508:46608,520:47840,532:59306,586:102024,1121:102760,1130:103496,1139:109920,1202:111090,1216:112350,1234:112710,1239:124530,1368
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Alfred Msezane's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Alfred Msezane lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Alfred Msezane describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Alfred Msezane describes life in colonized South Africa

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Alfred Msezane describes the people of Swaziland

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Alfred Msezane talks about the colonial history of South Africa

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Alfred Msezane describes his father's family background

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Alfred Msezane talks about the Zulu tribe

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Alfred Msezane talks about his father, and about how his parents met and married

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Alfred Msezane describes his family's life in the city of Johannesburg, South Africa

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Alfred Msezane describes his parents' personalities and who he takes after

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Alfred Msezane describes his earliest childhood memory

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Alfred Msezane talks about his brother, Richard Msezane, and his first school in Johannesburg

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Alfred Msezane describes the sights, sounds and smells of growing up

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Alfred Msezane talks about the toxic gases released from the gold mines of Johannesburg, South Africa

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Alfred Msezane describes his experience in St. Louis Catholic School and Thlakula School

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Alfred Msezane talks about World War II, and his community's involvement in the African National Congress [ANC]

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Alfred Msezane describes his experience in Thlakula School

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Alfred Msezane describes his decision to attend the University of Fort Hare, South Africa

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Alfred Msezane describes the segregation of South African universities and professional practice under the apartheid government

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Alfred Msezane describes the importance of education, as a South African

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Alfred Msezane describes his experience in InKamana High School and at the University of Fort Hare

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Alfred Msezane describes the differences between the British and American education systems

Tape: 3 Story: 10 - Alfred Msezane describes his decision to pursue a Ph.D. degree in physics at the University of Saskatchewan, Canada

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Alfred Msezane describes his experience at the University of Saskatchewan

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Alfred Msezane describes his master's degree thesis research

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Alfred Msezane describes his experience at the University of the Witwatersrand, and his departure from South Africa

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Alfred Msezane talks about his late wife, Gail Msezane

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Alfred Msezane describes his Ph.D. dissertation research on collision theory

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Alfred Msezane describes his reasons for not returning to South Africa after his Ph.D. degree

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Alfred Msezane describes his post-doctoral experience at Georgia State University

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Alfred Msezane describes his experience at Louisiana State University and at Morehouse College

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Alfred Msezane talks about his funding relationship with the U.S. Department of Energy

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Alfred Msezane talks about his experience at Morehouse College, and the lack of research infrastructure at HBCUs

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Alfred Msezane describes his experience at Clark Atlanta University

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Alfred Msezane describes his relationship with HistoryMaker Carlos Handy, and their contributions towards research at Clark Atlanta University

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Alfred Msezane talks about meeting Nelson Mandela

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Alfred Msezane discusses his visits to South Africa and the country's current status of physics

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Alfred Msezane talks upon the importance of a formal education to inform political commentary

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Alfred Msezane talks about his participation in conferences, his research in nano-science, and his professional memberships

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Alfred Msezane reflects upon his life's choices

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Alfred Msezane describes his preference for research over administration

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Alfred Msezane reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Alfred Msezane describes his hopes and concerns for the African-American community today

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Alfred Msezane talks about his family

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Alfred Msezane talks about how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Alfred Msezane describes his photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$4

DAStory

7$7

DATitle
Alfred Msezane describes the importance of education, as a South African
Alfred Msezane describes his post-doctoral experience at Georgia State University
Transcript
You know, (unclear) I will have to say to you, when I was growing up, education was paramount. Now, I want to tell you, you know, what is interesting, because around 1960 or '62 [1962], 1960, there was a treason fire in South Africa, where many of the people, including Albert Luthuli [South African teacher and politician; president of the African National Congress; Nobel Peace Prize Laureate and first African to win a Nobel Prize, 1960/1961] were rounded and charged with treason but where many of us learned was they had some excellent lawyers, like the Jewish community in South Africa was very strong. To cut a long story short, they defeated the government with its own laws, with its own prosecutors and judges, very impressive. So that was motivation for us to go to school. The intellectual capacity of these lawyers, yeah, it's not--it wasn't easy to defeat the South African government at that time. But they could. These people were freed, yeah, we know a treason trial in South Africa meant you would hang at the end of the day.$Okay, so you took a post-doctoral [position] here in the states, right?$$Right.$$Yeah--$$First at Georgia State [University, Atlanta, Georgia] with a friend of mine, Steve Manson. I must say that when I worked with Steve, Steve Manson, M-A-N-S-O-N, changed the dynamics of research completely because his model was first, we have to publish in a prestigious physics journals. Otherwise, we don't count. And that's what, you know, was imbedded in my head. For the first time, I could see us publishing in some of the prestigious physics journals.$$Okay, so when did you publish your first paper?$$Oh, no, about--my first paper was published in, when I was at Western Ontario [University of Western Ontario, London, Canada] for (unclear)--$$Okay.$$But with him, in this--between '75 [1975] and '79 [1979], we published lots of papers with Steve Manson here, and he exposed me to many of these very high-powered physicists. One of them is Ugo Fano from the University of Chicago [Chicago, Illinois], one of the top physicists at that time, yep. And there's a large--and then he also made me attend the meetings of the American Physical Society and introduced me to many people. I also attended the international conferences. And that bothered me because you had, you don't see blacks, even in America.$$Well, not many.$$Yeah, even today, you still don't see many.

Stephen McGuire

Nuclear physicist and physics professor Stephen C. McGuire was born on September 17, 1948 in New Orleans, Louisiana. McGuire was the first generation of his family to attend high school and college. McGuire’s parents were supportive of his education and inspired him to high achievements. By the time that McGuire graduated as valedictorian of his class at Joseph S. Clark Senior High in New Orleans, Louisiana, he knew that he wanted to pursue a career in physics. McGuire went on to attend Southern University and Agricultural and Mechanical (A&M) College on a four-year academic scholarship. He received his B.S. degree in physics, magna cum laude, in 1970. McGuire then continued his education at the University of Rochester where he studied under Professor Harry W. Fulbright and graduated with his M.S. degree in nuclear physics in 1974. In 1979, McGuire obtained his Ph.D. degree from Cornell University in nuclear science with a focus on low energy neutron physics under the guidance of Professor David D. Clark.

Between 1979 and 1982, McGuire conducted research as a staff scientist at Oak Ridge National Laboratory. In 1982, McGuire joined the faculty at Alabama A&M University in the department of physics and applied physics, and he began research with the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA). McGuire was honored by NASA in 1987 with its Office of Technology Utilization Research Citation Award. While at Alabama A&M, he also served as a consultant to the National Institutes of Health (NIH) and the U.S. Department of Energy, and spent time as a physics researcher at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL). In 1989, he became the first African American faculty member at the endowed College of Engineering at Cornell University. In 1992, he became a charter fellow of the National Society of Black Physicists (NSBP). With research focusing on experimental nuclear physics and nuclear radiation and microelectronics, McGuire was appointed to be a visiting scientist at the Center for Neutron Research at the National Institute of Standards and Technology in 1998.

Since 1999, McGuire has served as professor and chair of the department of physics at Southern University and A&M College in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. McGuire has pursued his interest in optical materials as part of the Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory (LIGO). During his tenure with the university, McGuire has led the establishment of the partnership between LIGO and Southern University and A&M College, and he served as the LIGO Scientific Collaboration Principal Investigator (PI). He considers this his greatest achievement. McGuire is a Fellow of the American Physical Society. He is married to the former Saundra E. Yancy. They have two adult daughters, Carla and Stephanie.

Stephen McGuire was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on August 18, 2012.

Accession Number

A2012.187

Sex

Male

Interview Date

8/18/2012

Last Name

McGuire

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Middle Name

Craig

Occupation
Schools

Joseph S. Clark Preparatory High School

Columbia University

University of California, Los Angeles

Southern University and Agricultural and Mechanical College

University of Rochester

Cornell University

Search Occupation Category
First Name

Stephen

Birth City, State, Country

New Orleans

HM ID

MCG04

Favorite Season

Summer

State

Louisiana

Favorite Vacation Destination

Florida Keys

Favorite Quote

It is better to put your trust in God than to put confidence in men.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Louisiana

Birth Date

9/17/1948

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Baton Rouge

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Tilapia (Grilled), Rice (Brown), Vegetables

Short Description

Nuclear physicist Stephen McGuire (1948 - ) led the establishment of the partnership in materials research and science education between the Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory and Southern University. He is a Fellow of the American Physical Society.

Employment

Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

Stanford Linear Accelerator Center

Oak Ridge National Laboratory

Alabama A&M State University

Cornell University

Southern University Baton Rouge

California Institute of Technology

Favorite Color

Gray

Timing Pairs
0,0:1319,5:3363,128:5188,181:14295,298:15945,328:16695,351:18270,391:18795,399:19695,415:22020,482:27109,501:28022,514:29931,550:33002,597:39003,688:39822,696:40641,707:50362,796:52560,814:53235,824:53610,830:57100,861:57424,868:57640,873:57856,879:58450,894:59152,909:60448,942:63858,986:64466,996:65454,1016:65910,1024:66366,1032:67734,1048:68874,1065:74352,1122:75054,1141:75486,1152:77214,1181:79222,1192:80358,1211:82275,1248:82843,1258:83553,1269:85560,1274:86366,1290:87873,1303:88422,1317:89337,1334:89764,1343:93440,1390:94496,1421:99946,1483:103176,1524:103448,1529:103720,1534:104128,1541:104536,1548:106110,1554:110974,1669:112126,1696:112510,1704:116478,1808:116734,1813:121166,1841:122231,1858:122586,1864:123225,1875:123722,1884:124290,1894:124716,1910:126491,1950:127343,1967:128124,1979:133450,2048$170,0:980,11:5300,164:5930,173:31834,541:32450,550:33506,570:33858,575:34474,584:34826,589:36498,619:39138,658:46515,775:46775,780:50805,852:63398,999:63714,1004:64899,1019:65768,1029:66242,1036:68914,1057:70024,1080:70320,1085:74168,1167:75204,1182:77720,1248:101234,1618:101522,1623:102170,1634:105986,1717:109860,1755
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Stephen McGuire's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Stephen McGuire lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Stephen McGuire describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Stephen McGuire describes how his parents met, and their early life in New Orleans, Louisiana

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Stephen McGuire talks about his mother's life in New Orleans, Louisiana

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Stephen McGuire describes his father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Stephen McGuire talks about his father's hard work, and his parents' emphasis on education

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Stephen McGuire describes his parents' personalities and who he takes after

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Stephen McGuire talks about his siblings and describes his childhood home in New Orleans, Louisiana

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Stephen McGuire describes the sights, sounds and smells of growing up

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Stephen McGuire talks about attending Mt. Zion Baptist Church as a child in New Orleans, Louisiana

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Stephen McGuire talks about his elementary school and the strong African American community in New Orleans

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Stephen McGuire talks about the quality of African American teachers found in the segregated schools in New Orleans, Louisiana

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Stephen McGuire talks about the teachers who influenced him in school in New Orleans, Louisiana

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Stephen McGuire talks about race relations, schools, libraries and how New Orleans differed from other Southern cities in terms of its segregation

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Stephen McGuire talks about the desegregation of high school sports in the New Orleans school system in the 1960s

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Stephen McGuire describes his childhood interests and how his introduction to NASA and space shuttles encouraged his interest in science and physics

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Stephen McGuire talks about his decision to study physics instead of playing college basketball

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Stephen McGuire talks about playing basketball in high school

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Stephen McGuire talks about how he was influenced by his high school teachers

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Stephen McGuire describes why he chose Southern University for college

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Stephen McGuire talks about Felton Clark, the president of Southern University

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Stephen McGuire describes how he met his wife at Southern University

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Stephen McGuire talks about Dr. King's assassination and the moon landing

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Stephen McGuire talks about graduating from from Southern University and the prominent academicians and athletes who graduated from there

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Stephen McGuire describes his experience at the University of Rochester

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Stephen McGuire describes his decision to pursue a Ph.D. degree in nuclear science at Cornell University

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Stephen McGuire describes his master's degree research on f-p shell nuclides

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Stephen McGuire describes his Ph.D. dissertation research on spin-forbidden isomers in Uranium-236

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Stephen McGuire talks about Ithaca, New York, and describes his research at Oak Ridge National Laboratory in Tennessee

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Stephen McGuire describes his experience at Alabama A&M University and at Marshall Space Flight Center

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Stephen McGuire describes his research at Cornell University on neutrons and x-rays, to understand the physics of materials

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Stephen McGuire describes his involvement in science education and minority education at Cornell University

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Stephen McGuire describes his experience as a visiting professor at Wayne State University in Detroit, Michigan

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Stephen McGuire describes his decision to return to Southern University in Baton Rouge, Louisiana to chair the physics department - part one

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Stephen McGuire describes his decision to return to Southern University in Baton Rouge, Louisiana to chair the physics department - part two

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Stephen McGuire describes his decision to leave Cornell University in order to chair the physics department at Southern University

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Stephen McGuire explains the significance of the Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory (LIGO)

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Stephen McGuire describes student involvement with the Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory (LIGO)

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Stephen McGuire describes his involvement with the Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory (LIGO) and other professional organizations

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Stephen McGuire talks about his goals for the future

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Stephen McGuire talks about the graduate program in physics at Southern University

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Stephen McGuire reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Stephen McGuire describes his hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Stephen McGuire reflects upon his choices

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - Stephen McGuire talks about his family

Tape: 6 Story: 10 - Stephen McGuire describes his earliest childhood memory

Tape: 6 Story: 11 - Stephen McGuire talks about how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Stephen McGuire describes his photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$6

DAStory

7$1

DATitle
Stephen McGuire talks about the desegregation of high school sports in the New Orleans school system in the 1960s
Stephen McGuire explains the significance of the Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory (LIGO)
Transcript
High school [Joseph S. Clark Senior High School, New Orleans, Louisiana]. Now, I don't want to get too far away from what your question is. In high school, I'll just give another example, I played basketball (clears throat). Now, you know, basketball is played out in the open on the playground courts in the city. So after while, you know, we go down to St. Aloysius [school] and we're playing basketball with just, you know, the white guys who were there. We're just playing just to have fun. Somebody saw this. We showed up one day and the basketball goal was taken away, cut off at the concrete and concreted over so we couldn't play basketball there anymore. Let me give you another example of just where we were in time. Today you take for granted interscholastic--interscholastic sports, okay, and Louisiana being integrated, no problem, okay. During that time, there were two schools in New Orleans. One was Jesuit and the other one was St. Augusta. St. Augusta was known for being a very strong school, even to this day, okay, academically and also athletically. Well the principals at these schools decided, "Look, we have to do something to break down this barrier of segregation in our schools. Let's do it by just simply playing a basketball game between our two schools, and making that a demonstration of what can happen without incident." St. Augusta at that time was the number one ranked school in the black league. Jesuit was the number one ranked school in the white league. They played that game behind closed doors successfully. St. Augusta won the game, okay. But they played it successfully--successfully. The parents of the players didn't come in and stage a protest. They had to play it behind closed doors because you couldn't just open it up it up--something like that to the public. But it demonstrated the basic principle, that two groups of kids, you know, with these similar interests, could get together, play a competitive basketball game appropriately refereed, and you not have an incident.$What's the significance of the research with LIGO [Laser Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory, in Livingston, Louisiana]? I mean, what are hoping we will find out about the, you know--I mean, there's a lot--lots of things we don't know or need to find out about, but what's the significance?$$But the idea behind LIGO is that, if we can in fact see this, when we see this gravitational radiation, you will see a new type of radiation. It's not electromagnetic, and it doesn't require its source to be hot and luminous. It can be cold and dark. So given the idea that the vast majority of the matter in the universe, 95 percent of it is cold and dark, then you have a chance of opening up a whole new window on this universe that we live in, if you can--when you make these detections. So you're bound to see, I believe, phenomena that we just don't know about right now. The other aspect of it that's extremely important is that, if you see the stochastic remnants of the big bang in your data, then you will have looked back further towards creation, that's never been done before in the history of mankind, and we anticipate that that in itself will yield valuable information in terms of our understanding of the evolution of the universe, as it turns out. So those two ideas that we're opening up a whole new window on the universe, I think--I think make for a strong or either a very compelling argument for this particular experiment. There's direct evidence that gravitational radiation exists and [Albert] Einstein was right. But we want make routine and direct measurements of this so as to just generate a body of data and knowledge that will help us move toward a deeper understanding of this universe that we live in. Right.

David Garrison

Physicist David Garrison was born on October 27, 1975 in Chicago, Illinois to parents Christine and Millard Garrison, Jr. He has two older siblings, Cassandra Guichard and Michael Garrison. He went to grade school in O’Fallon, Missouri, attending Mount Vernon Elementary School, Fort Zumwalt North Middle School, and Fort Zumwalt North High School. While in high school, he was a jazz soloist in the jazz band. Garrison finished secondary school in 1993, after which he began studying at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and played on the varsity football team for three years. He received his B.S. degree in physics from there in 1997. That same year he began a doctoral program in physics at Pennsylvania State University. He received his Ph.D. in physics from Pennsylvania State University in 2002.

During graduate school in 1999, he started Fast Financial Analysis with his future wife Rispba McCray-Garrison. The company provides software programs useful in analyzing money metrics. In 2002, he began working for the University of Houston-Clear Lake (UHCL) as a visiting assistant professor. A year later, he became a regular assistant professor and began reorganizing the physical sciences program into an actual physics department. The department now has a B.A. degree in physics, a M.S. degree in physics, a collaborative Ph.D. degree in physics with the University of Houston, and a P.S.M. degree in physics with a sub-plan in technical management. With these degrees programs, Garrison has been able to attract students better qualified to help with his research in numerical relativity, cosmology, computational physics, and plasma physics. In addition to research at the University of Houston-Clear Lake, he has also worked in collaboration on many projects with NASA’s Johnson Space Center, including a project for the development of a plasma rocket engine. In 2003, Garrison became the faculty chair of the physics program and began the UHCL Physics and Space Science Guest Lecture Series. He has also served terms on university bodies such as the Planning and Budget Committee, the Faculty Senate, University Council, and the Academic Council.

In 2002, Garrison married Rispba McCray-Garrison on December 28. In 2012, he became an advisory board member for the Space Center Houston and published What Every Successful Physics Graduate Student Should Know.
David Garrison was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on August 15, 2012.

Accession Number

A2012.199

Sex

Male

Interview Date

8/15/2012

Last Name

Garrison

Marital Status

Married

Schools

Pennsylvania State University

Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Fort Zumwalt North High School

Fort Zumwalt North Middle School

Mount Vernon Elementary

Mount Hope Elementary

First Name

David

Birth City, State, Country

Chicago

HM ID

GAR03

Favorite Season

Summer

State

Illinois

Favorite Vacation Destination

Beaches

Favorite Quote

If We Knew What We Are Doing, We Wouldn't Call It Research, Would We?

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Texas

Birth Date

10/27/1975

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Houston

Country

USA

Favorite Food

None

Short Description

Physicist and physics professor David Garrison (1975 - ) is a physicist who began teaching physics at the University of Houston-Clear Lake in 2002, where he is the physics program founder and faculty chair of the department.

Employment

University of Houston-Clear Lake

Fast Financial Analysis

Pennsylvania State University

Favorite Color

Blue, Red

Timing Pairs
0,0:2490,41:3300,55:5163,92:9537,209:13587,294:14316,311:26267,437:27482,457:27887,463:28211,468:31046,531:31451,537:44518,661:44854,666:47374,726:47794,732:54495,828:55132,833:57043,864:57589,871:65708,948:89994,1250:90282,1255:90570,1260:91002,1267:91434,1274:91938,1282:92226,1287:96100,1346:96850,1357:97900,1402:98875,1461:117030,1710:117830,1721:119110,1757:121190,1805:124690,1825:125810,1874:134655,1919:135180,1937:138540,2018:139065,2024:139590,2030:147155,2101:148175,2116:149620,2138:149960,2143:151575,2169:156070,2219:156758,2228:159166,2263:161746,2306:166820,2397:173305,2450:173730,2456:174835,2473:181840,2562$0,0:7332,105:12126,158:17196,181:18364,198:18948,208:19459,216:20992,240:21503,248:24656,265:25244,274:25580,279:26168,290:26924,300:29640,319:29976,326:30256,334:30760,344:33665,377:33925,382:34445,394:35095,405:35550,415:36785,442:37435,455:37695,460:38865,485:39320,493:39840,503:40360,514:44365,536:44745,541:45790,553:46170,558:48291,580:48615,585:53656,641:55224,661:57968,703:59046,715:59830,725:62840,737:63830,743:64202,748:65039,758:66341,776:66899,783:68201,802:68573,807:71750,818:72206,826:72719,836:72947,841:73517,853:75740,903:78020,954:81418,993:82098,1013:86419,1083:87175,1108:87427,1114:88624,1140:89128,1149:91908,1185:92584,1199:93416,1212:94092,1226:94352,1232:94560,1237:95930,1243:96498,1256:96924,1263:98344,1289:99409,1311:99977,1338:100758,1350:104628,1388:104900,1393:105308,1400:106750,1412:107542,1427:108334,1444:108622,1449:109270,1463:111702,1480:112854,1497:113526,1504:114774,1519:116886,1542:117558,1550:120610,1564:121585,1580:121885,1585:122485,1594:123085,1599:123610,1607:124510,1621:127250,1651:128174,1667:128510,1672:129740,1678:130389,1692:131215,1716:133516,1772:137005,1792:139555,1838:141055,1860:141730,1872:142105,1883:143005,1897:143680,1909:146080,1960:146455,1966:152140,1999:157835,2053:164304,2096:167458,2128:169872,2153:170282,2159:171020,2172:171676,2181:172086,2187:172496,2193:173070,2201:173480,2207:173890,2213:174218,2218:176667,2232:181590,2307:182094,2315:183606,2341:184398,2356:184902,2365:185478,2374:185982,2382:186630,2394:189725,2415:190697,2434:191426,2445:192560,2483:194933,2498:195257,2504:196715,2533:197039,2538:197687,2547:198659,2565:200441,2610:205710,2652
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of David Garrison's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - David Garrison lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - David Garrison describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - David Garrison describes his father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - David Garrison talks about his father's experience in the Army and how his parents met

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - David Garrison talks about his parents' personalities and who he takes after

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - David Garrison describes his earliest childhood memory

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - David Garrison describes his childhood home

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - David Garrison talks about his father's career

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - David Garrison describes the sights, sounds and smells of his childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - David Garrison talks about his elementary school experience

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - David Garrison talks about he and his sibling's transition to Missouri

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - David Garrison talks about his high school extracurricular activities

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - David Garrison talks about his high school experience

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - David Garrison talks about the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - David Garrison talks about graduating from high school and his decision to attend MIT

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - David Garrison talks about his experience at MIT

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - David Garrison talks about his peers, professors and the academic environment at MIT

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - David Garrison talks about computers and emerging technologies during his college years

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - David Garrison talks about his decision to attend Pennsylvania State University

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - David Garrison talks about meeting his wife

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - David Garrison talks about meeting his wife

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - David Garrison talks about his company, Fast Financial Analysis

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - David Garrison talks about his experience at Pennsylvania State University

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - David Garrison talks about his doctoral advisors

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - David Garrison describes his dissertation on binary black hole codes

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - David Garrison talks about his decision to join the University of Houston, Clear Lake

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - David Garrison talks about his work at the University of Houston, Clear Lake (part 1)

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - David Garrison talks about his work at the University of Houston, Clear Lake (part 2)

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - David Garrison talks about the distinguished lecture series at the University of Houston, Clear Lake

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - David Garrison talks about his publication on cosmology

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - David Garrison talks about his professional activities with UHCL and the Space Center Houston

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - David Garrison talks about his book and journal publications

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - David Garrison talks about his colleagues at the University of Houston, Clear Lake

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - David Garrison talks about his future plans and the challenges he sees in higher education

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - David Garrison talks about his interest in physics

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - David Garrison talks about the challenges with physics education at the university level

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - David Garrison talks about his hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - David Garrison reflects on his legacy

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - David Garrison reflects on his life choices

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - David Garrison talks about his family

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - David Garrison reflects on his career

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - David Garrison talks about how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - David Garrison describes his photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$4

DAStory

5$4

DATitle
David Garrison talks about computers and emerging technologies during his college years
David Garrison talks about his doctoral advisors
Transcript
And it was, it was fascinating, and then also, this is also when the dot.com revolution was going on or at least getting started 'cause when I started at MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology], I'd never really, I learned a little bit of computer programming from my cousin. You know, he taught me how to program on a Commodore Vic 20. And it was basically one of those things where we had the cassette tapes that would store the programs to get, it could take hours for it to load and everything. And I hadn't really, I'd never heard of the Internet. I hadn't been on a modern computer. And then I got to MIT, and we were using, you know, high-level Unix machines. I hadn't even used a PC, and we were already at, using Unix and learning about the Internet, the world-wide web and being able to do stuff on it. And then also, when I was working on my senior thesis, I ended up kind of getting involved in this computational project to simulate the gravitational lens on un-lensed images. And the idea was could I, could--is it possible to train a computer to just look at the sky and figure out where the gravitational lenses are without having a human astronomer have to go through and do it by hand. And so I was given this piece of code that really wasn't working very well. And over time, I improved on it, I optimized it and everything else. And then I made the kind of discovery that, I didn't even have to go into the lab to do this. I could actually be at home on my computer and 24 hours a day, as long as I had access to the Internet, I could go and I could change the code. I could rerun it. I could do whatever I needed to do without going into the lab. So that was part of my motivation from there on out, was the laziness that I could just have this total freedom to do science, but that I would, didn't have to be in a certain place at a certain time to do it.$$Now, do you remember when you got your first computer?$$I bought a computer when I first got to MIT, and they had a, an Apple store downstairs in the student center. And I bought an Apple, and the main reason why was because when I was in high school, I took a computer class, and we learned how to use, you know, basic computer stuff on, on Apples, and they were Macintosh SE's. I actually have one in my office now. And it was, you know, they were incredibly primitive compared to what we have today. But that's what kind of started. And then I never really liked the PC's much. But I, I learned how to use the Apples and I just stick with them since then.$Okay, now, who was your advisor at Kent State?$$I had two advisors--$$Penn State.$$--Jorge Pullen was my primary advisor, and my secondary advisor was Pueblo Laguna. And Jorge was interested in, I think his primary interest was in quantum gravity more so. But he also did some stuff with numerical relativity. I was pretty much in numerical relativity. And like I said, at some point in my scientific career, I think the older scientists just decided that they wanted to stick the younger people in front of a computer. And I felt more comfortable with that. And Pueblo was more focused on the numerical relativity aspect. So we'd, I learned how to, you know, run code on Super Computers and the interesting thing was that at the time, most computers were single-core, single processor. And we were running on dozens, sometimes even hundreds of processors at once. And so we had a, a skill for running multi-processor or writing multi-processor programs before anybody even knew that that was gonna be a major need.$$So you'd have them networked and--$$Yeah, oh, yeah, they were networked, and, you know, they were--we'd use Super Computer architectures. And then we started experimenting with Beowulf architectures where they were, they weren't shared memory. And then so each processor had its own memory, and they'd have to communicate with each other. And so we got to do some really interesting research. And also Penn State, even though it was isolated, at the time, it was the United States premier center for gravitation physics research. So anybody who had done anything with general relativity or cosmology passed through Penn State. And the only other center in the world that was anywhere close to as big as what we were doing was in Pottstown, Germany. And so we talked to them. But we had, pretty much any, anybody who was a big name in the field or a potential big name in the field, passed through there, like Shawn Carroll or Scott Hughes, or, let's see, one of my mentors there was Lee Smolin who's now one of the big people at the Perimeter Institute. And we also had, we didn't meet Steven Hawking, but we did meet Roger Penrose. He actually would spend several weeks every year there at Penn State and was one of, and had a joint faculty appointment. And so we were getting seminars from world-class people, and we knew the absolute cutting edge of the research. And so we were in this just, within our department, we were in this kind of a bubble of, you know, absolutely, top-of-the-line, best research going on. And we knew anything going on in the field, just by walking up the hall and talking to people.

Julius Taylor

Physicist and physics professor Julius Henry Taylor was born on February 15, 1914, in Cape May, New Jersey, to Julia and Coleman Taylor. Taylor was one of six children including Morris, Margaret, Coleman, Elizabeth, and Mildred. He attended Middle Township High School in New Jersey, where he played trumpet in the band and was an avid basketball player and track star. He graduated in 1932, and did not plan to attend college until he met his wife, Patricia Spaulding, who encouraged him to do so and the two married in 1937. The following year, Taylor earned his A.B. degree in physics from Lincoln University. He went on to receive his M.S. and Ph.D. degrees in solid state physics from the University of Pennsylvania.

In the 1940s, Taylor published scholarly papers while under contract with the U.S. Navy. In 1945, he became chairman of the Department of Physics at West Virginia State College. Four years later, he joined the faculty at Morgan State University at the insistence of then-president Dr. Martin David Jenkins. Taylor began building the physics department and became its first chairperson in 1954, after earning tenure as a professor. Taylor also started the first golf team at Morgan State University that went on to win the CIAA championship. A well-known golfer, Taylor continued to play 18 holes through 2009. During his years as a professor, Taylor mentored several students at Morgan State University who went on to get their Ph.Ds in physics including Dr. Frederick Oliver who would later be hired as chair of the Physics Department. In 1955, Taylor served as an editor for The Negro In Science, a book addressing prominent African American scientists and their research. During his time at Morgan State University, Taylor served as a liaison to the Goddard Space Flight Center and the National Science Foundation, along with several other scientific societies and committees. He also lectured at American University before his retirement in 1986 when he became professor emeritus at Morgan State. After his retirement, Taylor continued to mentor students in junior and senior high schools in the Baltimore Public School System. In 1998, Taylor served as a contractor to NASA.

Taylor is the recipient of two Honorary Doctorate degrees in Science from Grambling State University and Lincoln University. In 1963, he was named Alumnus of the Year by Lincoln University and in 1976, he received a Distinguished Service Citation from the American Association of Physics Teachers. He has been a member and president of the executive committee of the Chesapeake Section of the American Association of Physics Teachers as well as a section representative.

Taylor has two children, Trena Taylor Brown and Dwight Spaulding Taylor.

Julius Henry Taylor was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on July 13, 2010.

Julius Taylor passed away on August 27, 2011.

Accession Number

A2010.066

Sex

Male

Interview Date

7/13/2010 |and| 7/14/2010

Last Name

Taylor

Marital Status

Widower

Middle Name

Henry

Schools

Middle Township High School

Lincoln University

University of Pennsylvania

Middle Township Elementary School

Search Occupation Category
First Name

Julius

Birth City, State, Country

Cape May

HM ID

TAY09

Favorite Season

Fall

Sponsor

National Science Foundation

State

New Jersey

Favorite Vacation Destination

Florida

Favorite Quote

How are you getting along?

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Maryland

Birth Date

2/15/1914

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Baltimore

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Fish

Death Date

8/27/2011

Short Description

Physics professor and physicist Julius Taylor (1914 - 2011 ) established the physics department at Morgan State University, and has been lauded for his mentoring and teaching. His research focuses on solid state physics and high-pressure systems.

Employment

National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA)

Morgan State University

West Virginia State College

Main Sponsor
Main Sponsor URL
Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
0,0:5646,24:5958,62:13160,98:15041,116:24982,245:30055,335:30945,351:40100,411:43780,499:45380,594:47060,630:47380,635:50894,656:51398,664:51986,672:52322,677:52742,683:53498,694:55094,723:55514,729:57026,748:59714,813:63662,896:64082,902:70890,1018:82326,1153:86030,1205$0,0:3140,36:9890,123:21886,239:26597,349:38733,489:57593,694:61345,730:62710,751:63550,760:80980,1102:81716,1119:84292,1218:88248,1264:105700,1556:112680,1624:121896,1699:128360,1760:134281,1892:135667,1914:138285,1974:155700,2145:159497,2182:159821,2187:164940,2236:172431,2373:189946,2758:208390,2913:214438,3065:230314,3282:232074,3334:243190,3460
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Julius Taylor's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Julius Taylor shares his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Julius Taylor describes his paternal grandparents

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Julius Taylor describes his father

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Julius Taylor describes the person who encouraged him to attend college

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Julius Taylor describes his family background

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Julius Taylor describes his college decision and the thoughts of his future wife

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Julius Taylor describes his elementary and high school experiences

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Julius Taylor remembers his childhood home and community

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Julius Taylor describes his childhood influences

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Julius Taylor remembers feeling the effects of segregation on a school trip

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Julius Taylor recalls his desire to play the trumpet

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Julius Taylor describes his first encounter with science

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Julius Taylor discusses his interest in track and field

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Julius Taylor describes the effect of his wife and her family on his career

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Julius Taylor describes his father and his religious faith

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Julius Taylor shares his memories of Lincoln University

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Julius Taylor talks about his wife and children

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Julius Taylor recalls memories of his graduate career at the University of Pennsylvania

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Julius Taylor describes his research in solid state physics

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Julius Taylor talks about pioneers in solid state physics

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Julius Taylor describes his building the Morgan State University physics program

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Julius Taylor talks about the growth of the Morgan State University physics department in the 1950s

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Julius Taylor explains his teaching philosophy

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Julius Taylor describes the physics professor at Howard University

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Julius Taylor describes his employment at the West Virginia State University

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Julius Taylor recalls starting the golf team at Morgan State University, part 1

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Julius Taylor talks about the benefits of golf

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Julius Taylor recounts his experiences as a graduate student at the University of Pennsylvania

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Julius Taylor describes his graduate thesis

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Julius Taylor describes federal funding for research and teaching

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Julius Taylor recalls his professional affiliations

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Julius Taylor describes his fondness for golf

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Julius Taylor discusses receiving his doctorate and not being given a faculty position at the University of Pennsylvania

Tape: 4 Story: 10 - Julius Taylor describes his role as a mentor

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Julius Taylor reflects on his role as a mentor and his awards

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Julius Taylor talks about his community involvement

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Julius Taylor discusses physics and the changing student body

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Julius Taylor talks about his strategies as a teacher

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Julius Taylor describes his role at Morgan State University

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Julius Taylor describes Morgan State University's relationship with Goddard Space Flight Center and the Afro-American Institute of Science

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Julius Taylor notes that his relationship with Morgan State University's administration

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Julius Taylor discusses his book, "The Negro in Science"

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Julius Taylor comments on integration and its effect on education

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Julius Taylor discusses his professional associations

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Julius Taylor discusses the influence of politics in science

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Julius Taylor discusses his role in the design of Calloway Hall at Morgan State University

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Julius Taylor talks about his love of fishing

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Julius Taylor discusses his retirement

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Julius Taylor comments on university presidents

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Julius Taylor describes his honorary doctorate from Grambling University

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Julius Taylor opines on building a strong university

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - Julius Taylor responds to questions regarding advice to today's students

Tape: 6 Story: 10 - Julius Taylor talks about the future of physics in solving world problems

Tape: 6 Story: 11 - Julius Taylor reflects on how the field of physics has changed

Tape: 6 Story: 12 - Julius Taylor comments on his worry about Morgan State University's physics department

Tape: 6 Story: 13 - Julius Taylor comments on how he wants to be remembered

Tape: 6 Story: 14 - Julius Taylor describes his work at Aberdeen Proving Ground

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Julius Taylor describes his photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

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DAStory

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DATitle
Julius Taylor describes the person who encouraged him to attend college
Julius Taylor describes his research in solid state physics
Transcript
We're now gonna turn to your mother [Julia Price Taylor].$$My mother was a maid and she worked in downtown Cape May Courthouse. In fact, she worked at a drugstore, and it's an interesting thing that the druggist liked me. And he gave me those jobs to do around the drugstore. And later on in life, he told me, he says, you know, he says, you don't have to do that hard work your father's [Coleman H. Taylor] doing. He says, you can go to college, and you can enjoy the American Dream. Well, at that time, I didn't know what the American Dream was, but (laughter) I found out later, he was right. But, yeah, I think he had a very important impact. I went to college with fifty dollars, a trumpet and a suitcase. The fifty dollars I got from that druggist to help me go to college. In fact, when I put the money up with bursar at the college, he looked at it and he smiled. Now, this was right after the '29 [1929] crash. He said, Mr. Taylor, he said, this doesn't meet your initial payment. I said, "I know that, sir." He said, "But you'll be hearing from home, won't you?" So I said, "If I hear from home, I said, they'll be asking me for money." So, and it was the truth (laughter).$$Okay.$Now, what was your research?$$Solid state physics.$$Solid state physics.$$In fact, there's two, there were two articles in that thing that I gave you.$$Yes.$$Did you see them?$$Yes, I saw them, but--But tell me about that research?$$Well, that research was, if you take a solid state crystal and compress it, all the, everything changes, everything changes. Well, my advisor said, "Jules, I got an idea about what we can do." And I asked him, "What can we do?" And he says, "We can put pressure on these silicon, germanium that are, and we can study the mobility of the ions and Hall effect and some other things, resistance and says that'll be a good thesis problem for you." So we took a hydraulic jack. With the hydraulic jack I could get two thousand atmospheres [pressure measurement]. And so I studied the germ--germanium and a couple of other things. And then I wrote an article for the "Physical Review". And then Harvard [University, Cambridge, Massachusetts] grabbed it, Harvard grabbed it--no, MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Massachusetts]. MIT grabbed it. They could go to many times the pressure I was going to, but you know what would happen? They got the same results that I got, same results, but at two thousand atmospheres.$$Now, initially you started out wanting to be a teacher--$$Yeah.$$--and you wanted to be a teacher at the high-school level versus until you realized you had to have physics. And then you realized you wanted to be a college professor.$$Yeah.$$Where did you passion for research come from?$$Well, I was always curious about things, always curious about things. Why does this happen, you know? I wanted to know why.$$But when I look back at the, many of the people who were of your generation who were teaching--$$They weren't thinking about physics.$$They weren't thinking, but even those who were thinking about physics, they weren't thinking about doing research. They weren't thinking about publishing. You did.$$Yeah, well, I just loved, I loved to be in that lab, and I loved to dope those crystals with arsenic and other things to change their qualities and properties. And, in fact, we didn't know anything at all about a clean room. So I was in charge of doing the doping at the University of Pennsylvania [Philadelphia, Pennsylvania] in physics. So my advisor would say to me, he says, "Dope up such and such and such." So, I'd start doping and I'd melt the whole thing and defuse it with the dope. It'd come out perfect, perfectly.$$And for a layman who is watching this, what do you mean by doping?$$Doping is, you see, you take something out, take something out of a crystal, you got some calcium. You take some calcium out and put something in that place for that calcium. See, that's doping it, that's doping it. So, but let me tell you know what happened. Then the professor would say to me, he says, "Jules, that last batch you made wasn't like the first batch." I said, "I made it the same way." He said, "Well, something's going on around here." You know what it was? We didn't know anything about a clean room. And the woman would come in and sweep and the dust would fly all around the room. You can't have any dust, you know. It took a long while to find out about that. But we found out about, um-hum, we found out about it. And from then on we didn't have her, she wasn't allowed in the room at all. She wasn't allowed in the room at all.