What is the significance of being certified as a minority owned business?$$I don't think it's any significance, you're supposed to get points in the county and to me, my son got that certification, I had it early in business and I found out that people, as soon as they discovered that you were minority, you got pushed back and harmed and nitpicked. So for years I let mine's expire and I didn't get it. My son has--since he came with the company [Painia Development Corporation, Detroit, Michigan], he's now rejoined then and had put it there. I don't think it's, I don't think it's been significant at all. I think the only thing that I know where we've got points, we got points with the county for being a county based business on one contract. But we don't do a lot of work for other people, you know, most of our stuff is there. But I, I think it's, in many cases it's a disadvantage because it quickly points out you may have a, it's similar to what I said about the mortgage, twice in my life, the Farmers Home [Farmers Home Administration] I told you about, the first house I built, Prudential Insurance Company [Prudential Insurance Company of America; Prudential Financial, Inc.] had agreed to finance it with never seeing me, when me and my wife [Helena DuBose] showed up to close, they wouldn't close the loan. So I, obviously my son is with the company and, and in fact, the table, he's, he's taken charge of a lot of stuff. And he feels that it was some significance but I've never seen any advantage, me and a person that work in the Lansing [Michigan] office who happened to be white, but I think she's a fair person, we both agree that in the cases when I tried to use it very early, it was a negative, not a positive.$$So you've kind of tried to fly under the radar of, of identification?$$I flew, yes, yes. I tried to fly under the radar and when I came out, thought I had the education and the money I got slapped pretty hard three or four times okay, or several times. And it's happened in the last, in this governor's [Jennifer Granholm] administration even though I had three, participated in two fundraisers for her and had one, there was staff who did it this time, 'cause they knew who we was and knew (unclear) there and, and I got very little support. And the rules was written that all you could do, I guess we could have filed a lawsuit but I, you know, you just go on and find a way to get around this. But no, so the, I, we are certified, I think Freddie [Dubose's son, Freddie DuBose] is certified as, and it cost us like fifteen--$1800 or $3,000 a year to go through the process. But I think it's, it's, it's, it's, it's useless. So yeah, you try to fly under the radar. And I shared with somebody who had been a major (unclear) a few weeks ago that I flew under the radar and when I came out, and I don't think it's that you can come out openly now, now obviously some of it you can get (unclear). It's a guy up in Lansing, Joel Ferguson [Joel I. Ferguson], black, he's, just forced a contract but he got a joint venture white partner, this $40 million deal. But he had the influence and the Democratic congress, the state house [Michigan House of Representatives]. And the white partner had friends in, in the Republican side. So the governor wanted to slow this down and she wasn't gonna get her budget until they got their police station, okay. So if you get at that level, you know, you know, where, you know, he was very close to the Clintons [Hillary Rodham Clinton and President William Jefferson "Bill" Clinton], he got two TV license but at our level it, it, it's, it's better to get as far as you can before they know who you are, you know, even if you're gonna confront it, if you don't get down the pipe it, it's still difficult. And then you make a economic decision, do I wanna argue with this or do I wanna go somewhere else. So, yes, I, I have ducked of, of them not knowing who I was.$I just wanted to ask you--$$Yeah (simultaneous).$$--(simultaneous) a quick question like--$$Yeah.$$--what difference has, you, you were describing off, off camera, you know, the, this development [Lester Morgan Cultural Gardens, Detroit Michigan] and how it came into being and how Coleman Young fought for low income housing, and housing for the, the low income residents here and medium income residents in this development that we're sitting at right now which was, you know, projected as a high income, you know, living facility by some of the directors at the DIA--$$Yeah.$$--Detroit Institute for the Arts [sic. Detroit Institute of Arts, Detroit, Michigan], so.$$Well, Coleman was, was strong in both low income and minority participation. If you were gonna do something that required a lot of city approval, participation, he wanted you to take in a black partner and, and, and if the black partner didn't know the game, learn him the game. If the architecture firm wasn't big enough to do it, he'd put two black firms together or he put the black firm with a white. That was, that was Coleman's thing is that, you know, our experience. So on this particular job here, Alfred Taubman [A. Alfred Taubman] didn't like what the city had requested for proposal. Alfred Taubman is a large real estate developer and, and has made some news. But anyway he owns shopping centers and so forth, one of the big and, and he had a real interest in the city, in the DIA and Coleman's administration. So when we got the proposal for this development it was to be a senior citizen low income. And he called and said that he wanted to meet with me. So I said fine. At first I thought it was a joke when the secretary told me, and she thought it was a joke that, "Alfred Taubman's on the phone. They wanna meet with you." I had done no business with him and didn't know any reason why he would call me, but at the time he called me. When I met with him, he told me he had talked to two or three other people and they said I was a difficult person and I probably wouldn't meet with him and some of 'em had said that, you know, they could get a meeting with me for a fee or something to that effect. And he called Coleman and Coleman said, "No," I was always a boy to Coleman, a young man, so he said, "No, call the boy, he'll meet with you, he, he ain't got no problem, just, just pick up the phone, you don't need to go through XYZ for him to meet you." So he called and I met with him. And in the first meeting we got a little aggravated at times. He said that him and Max Fisher and some of the people was tired of us building all this low income stuff in the city. And I said, "Well, you know, if your banks, you and Max Fisher are the largest stockholder in Chase Bank [Chase Manhattan Bank; JPMorgan Chase and Co.] and y'all own Manufacturers Bank [Manufacturers Bank, N.A., Detroit, Michigan] here. If y'all lend us some money we'd do it." And then, you know, we got pretty husky and he says, "Well, set- settle down, settle down, we can work, work together." And in the final analysis he said, "Can the city support a market rate development?" I said, "Yeah, but we can't get, borrow, no money from no place but the state housing authority [Michigan State Housing Development Authority], and they don't allow you to spend but fifty-five thousand dollars a unit. And you can't build a market rate unit with that, you can't get a nice unit." He said, "Well, come back in with the numbers and tell me what you need and I'll get you the mortgage." I said, "I don't--no recourse mortgage [nonrecourse mortgage]--." I said, "Do you understand, I'm not signing personally for nothing?" He said (laughter), he laughed and say, said, "Yeah, I know what a no recourse mortgage is," you know, we just got through talking about something, $300 million or something--he had just talked to somebody on the phone about a, a $30 million or something, but anyway, some big numbers. He said, "So that conversation is so--you know who I am. And I own A and W Root Beer [A and W Restaurants, Inc.] but anyway, I know what a no recourse mortgage is." So I said, "Okay, I could be back in here Thursday and give you the numbers." And I came back and told him that we needed, what we needed. And he said, "Fine, I'll have Michigan National Bank [Lansing, Michigan] deliver a, a commitment over to you." And then, and then he asked me about my financial statement. And I said, "Well, now I done told you I ain't gone personally guarantee nothing." He said, "No, I just wanna see the history of your financial statement since I'm going to make the commitment for the loan, the bank's gonna depend on me." I said, "Well, I don't wanna show no cosigner." He says, "We ain't gonna cosign. They gonna just give you one on the fact that I tell them to give you one." And so I showed him my financial statements and he looked at it and said, "You know, this is accurate." I said, "Yeah, it's accurate." He said, "Well, okay. I'm satisfied that you ought to be able to get the loan on your own." And I said, "Well, we didn't get it and I ain't gonna waste no time, wasting money with architects and so forth." So he arranged for Michigan National to bring me a letter with a $5 million commitment. So then when I told Coleman Young what happened, he said, "No, we gonna have some low income people in there." He, "Low income blank, blank, people in there. We ain't gonna let y'all come in here and just do this." So I went back and I told him, you know, what the new numbers was, he said, "Okay. We can, we can work with that."