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Johnnetta Betsch Cole

College president, museum director and civic leader Johnnetta Betsch Cole was born on October 19, 1936 in Jacksonville, Florida to John Thomas and Mary Frances Lewis Betsch. She was admitted to Fisk University at the age of fifteen, and later transferred to Oberlin College where she received her B.A. degree in sociology in 1957. Cole earned her M.A. and Ph.D. degrees in anthropology from Northwestern University in 1959 and 1967.

In 1970, Cole accepted a faculty position at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, where she served as a professor of anthropology and Afro-American studies. In 1982, Cole joined the faculty at Hunter College and served as the director of the Latin American and Caribbean Studies Program at the CUNY Graduate Center. She was named the first black woman president of Spelman College in Atlanta, Georgia in 1987. During her tenure as president, she led a campaign that raised over $113 million dollars, attracted higher student enrollment, and improved Spelman’s overall ranking. In 1992, Cole served on President Bill Clinton’s transition team as cluster coordinator for education, labor, and the arts. After leaving Spelman in 1997, Cole joined Emory University as a Presidential Distinguished Professor of Anthropology, Women Studies and African American studies. From 2002 to 2007, she served as the president of Bennett College. There, she led a $50 million campaign, raised funds for an on-campus art museum, and initiated the women’s studies and global studies programs. In 2009, she was named director of the Smithsonian National Museum of African Art in Washington D.C.

Cole authored and edited numerous books including All American Women: Lines That Divide,Ties That Bind (ed.) in 1986, Anthropology for the Ninties (ed.) in 1988, Conversations: Straight Talk with America’s Sister President in 1994, Gender Talk – the Struggle for Women’s Equality in African American’s Communities in 2003, edited with Beverly Guy-Sheftall,Who Should Be First? Feminist Speak Out On The 2008 Presidential Campaign, edited with Beverly Guy-Sheftall in 2010, and Diversity, Equity, Accessibility, and Inclusion in Museums, edited with Laura L. Lott in 2019.

Cole has served on the boards of Coca Cola Enterprises, Merck & Co., Home Depot, the Rockefeller Foundation, and United Way of America. She also served as chair of the Johnnetta B. Cole Global Diversity and Inclusion Institute at Bennett College, and she served as the President of the Association of Art Museum Directors. She is currently the chair and president of the National Council of Negro Women.

She has received numerous awards, including the 1988 Candace Award from the National Coalition of 100 Black Women, the 2013 Alston-Jones International Civil and Human Rights Award, the Reginald Wilson Diversity Leadership Award from the American Council on Education, and the BET Honors Award for Education in 2015. Cole has been awarded sixty-nine honorary degrees and is a member of the Phi Beta Kappa Society.

Cole is married to James D. Staton, Jr. She has three sons, one step-son and three grandchildren.

Johnnetta Betsch Cole was interviewed by TheHistoryMakers on February 11, 2019.

Accession Number

A2019.016

Sex

Female

Interview Date

2/11/2019

Last Name

Cole

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Middle Name

Betsch

Schools

Fisk University

Oberlin College

Northwestern University

Boylan-Haven School

First Name

Johnnetta

Birth City, State, Country

Jacksonville

HM ID

COL37

Favorite Season

Autumn

State

Florida

Favorite Vacation Destination

American Beach On Amelia Island

Favorite Quote

When Women Lead, Streams Run Uphill

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

District of Columbia

Birth Date

10/19/1936

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Washington

Favorite Food

Seafood, Peanut Butter

Short Description

College president, museum director and civic leader Johnnetta Betsch Cole (1936 - ) became the first African American female president of Spelman College in 1987 before being named director of the Smithsonian National Museum of African Art in 2009.

Employment

University of Massachusetts Amherst

Hunter College

Spelman College

Emory University

Bennett College

National Museum of African Art

Washington State University

Bill Clinton Administration

Favorite Color

Red and Black

Dr. Jeanne Craig Sinkford

Academic administrator and educator Jeanne Craig Sinkford was born on January 30, 1933 in Washington, D.C. to Richard and Geneva Craig. She graduated from Dunbar High School in 1949, and earned her B.S. degree in psychology and chemistry from Howard University in 1953. In 1958, Sinkford graduated at the top of her class with a D.D.S. degree in dental surgery from the Howard University College of Dentistry. She then taught prosthodontics at Howard’s College of Dentistry before graduating from Northwestern University School of Dentistry with her M.S. degree in 1962, and her Ph.D. in physiology in 1963, making her the first female prosthodontist with a Ph.D.

Sinkford remained at the Northwestern University School of Dentistry to teach for a year before returning to the Howard University College of Dentistry in 1964 to chair the prosthodontics department, which was the largest department at the college. She was the first woman head of such a department in the nation. Sinkford was made associate dean of the College of Dentistry in 1967. In 1972, she was appointed to a nine-member ad hoc advisory panel examining the ethics of the 1932 Tuskegee Syphilis Study. Sinkford became the first female dean of any dental school in the nation in 1975 upon being appointed dean of Howard University’s College of Dentistry. In 1979, she coauthored Profile of the Negro in American Dentistry with Foster Kidd, D.D.S. Sinkford retired as dean in 1991 after sixteen years. That same year, she became professor and dean emeritus, and was appointed director of the Office of Women and Minority Affairs at the American Dental Education Association (ADEA) in Washington, D.C. In 2015, Sinkford became a senior scholar-in-residence with ADEA, her work focusing on recruitment and promoting growth of minority and women students and faculty. She also founded international women's leadership programming for women's health and oral health of the world population.

Sinkford holds memberships in the American Prosthodontic Society, the International Association of Dental Research, the National Dental Association, the Institute of Medicine, the National Academy of Sciences, Phi Beta Kappa, and Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority. She also serves as an American College of Dentists and International College of Dentists fellow.

Sinkford’s numerous awards include Alumni Achievement Awards from Northwestern University and Howard University in 1970 and 1976, one of the first Candace Awards from the National Coalition of 100 Black Women in 1982, the 1984 Award of Merit from the American Fund for Dental Health, the 2007 Trailblazer Award from the National Dental Association, and the 2010 Fauchard Gold Medal. She also earned honorary doctorate degrees from Georgetown University School of Dentistry in 1978, the University of Medicine and Dentistry in New Jersey in 1992, Meharry Medical College in 2008, the University of Michigan in 2018, and Howard University in 2019.

Sinkford resides in Maryland and has three children with her late husband, Dr. Stanley M. Sinkford, Jr.: Dianne Sylvia, Janet Lynn, and Stanley M. Sinkford, III.

Jeanne Craig Sinkford was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on September 26, 2019.

Accession Number

A2019.105

Sex

Female

Interview Date

9/26/2019

Last Name

Craig Sinkford

Maker Category
Marital Status

Widow

Schools

Howard University

Paul Laurence Dunbar High School

Howard University College of Dentistry

Northwestern University

First Name

Jeanne

Birth City, State, Country

Washington, D.C.

HM ID

SIN03

Favorite Season

Summer

Favorite Vacation Destination

Bethany Beach, DE

Favorite Quote

Don't Sweat The Small Stuff

Speakers Bureau Region State

District of Columbia

Birth Date

1/30/1933

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Washington

Favorite Food

Fried Chicken

Short Description

Academic administrator and educator Jeanne Craig Sinkford (1933 - ) was the country’s first woman prosthodontist with a Ph.D. and first woman to head a major department at a dental school before becoming the country’s first woman dean of a dental school in 1975.

Employment

Howard University College of Dentistry

Northwestern University School of Dentistry

American Association of Dental Schools

Favorite Color

Blue

Charles N. Atkins

Investment banker Charles N. Atkins was born on December 12, 1952 in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma to Dr. Charles Atkins, Sr. and Hannah Diggs Atkins. Atkins’ mother was the first African American woman to be elected to the Oklahoma House of Representatives in 1958, serving until 1980. Atkins graduated from Bishop McGuinness Catholic High School in Oklahoma City in 1971, and went on to receive his B.A. degree in political science, magna cum laude, from Howard University in Washington, D.C. in 1975. Atkins then earned his J.D. degree from Harvard Law School in 1978.

Following his graduation from Harvard Law School, Atkins served as an associate assistant to President Jimmy Carter, and as the second legislative counsel to U.S. Senator David L. Boren of Oklahoma. In 1984, he was named deputy director of the Democratic National Convention platform committee, as well as deputy campaign manager for Walter Mondale’s vice-presidential candidate, Geraldine Ferarro. Atkins worked as a senior vice president at Lehman Brothers from 1988 to 1990 before leaving to join Morgan Stanley. As executive director, Atkins focused on corporate structured finance and utility sector recapitalization, and headed the corporate reorganization of Constellation Energy. He also served on President Bill Clinton’s presidential transition team in 1993, and was appointed by President Clinton to serve on the Advisory Committee of the U.S. Export-Import Bank. Atkins left Morgan Stanley in 2013 to found Atkins Capital Strategies LLC. In 2015, he became the executive chairman of Premier League Basketball in the United Kingdom, and a partner at Maroon Capital Group LLC. In 2017, Atkins became a senior advisor at Guggenheim Securities, LLC in New York City, focusing on corporate structured finance for corporate and financial sponsor clients.

Atkins was a trustee of The Metropolitan Museum of Art and the American Folk Art Museum, in addition to serving on the board of advisors for his elementary school, Casady School in Oklahoma City. Atkins also worked with McKinsey & Company, publishing multiple financial reports such as Global Capital Markets: Entering a New Era, in collaboration with a team of economists. Atkins has been awarded two U.S. patents for innovative financing structures.

Charles N. Atkins was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on December 16, 2016.

Accession Number

A2016.040

Sex

Male

Interview Date

12/16/2016

Last Name

Atkins

Maker Category
Marital Status

Widower

Middle Name

N.

Schools

Bishop Mcguinness Catholic High School

Harvard Law School

Edwards Elementary School

Casady School

Howard University

First Name

Charles

Birth City, State, Country

Oklahoma City

HM ID

ATK01

Favorite Season

Fall

State

Oklahoma

Favorite Vacation Destination

Caribbean Beaches

Favorite Quote

The Struggle Continues.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

New York

Birth Date

12/25/1952

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

New York

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Macaroni And Cheese, Peach Pie

Short Description

Investment banker Charles N. Atkins (1953 - ) served as the executive director of Morgan Stanley from 1990 to 2013, the founder of Atkins Capital Strategies LLC, and a senior advisor at Guggenheim Securities, LLC.

Employment

The United States Government

United States Senate

Democratic National Convention

Geraldine Ferarro's Campaign

Lehman Brothers

Morgan Stanley

Atkins Capital Strategies

Maroon Capital Group LLC

Akin Gump

Butler and Binion

Favorite Color

Bright Orange, Orange-Yellow

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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Charles N. Atkins' interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Charles N. Atkins lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Charles N. Atkins describes his father's family background, pt.1

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Charles N. Atkins describes his father's family background, pt. 2

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Charles N. Atkins describes how his parents met

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Charles N. Atkins talks about his father's medical career

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Charles N. Atkins talks about the African American community in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Charles N. Atkins describes his mother's family background, pt. 1

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Charles N. Atkins describes his mother's family background, pt. 2

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Charles N. Atkins talks about his maternal family's education and professions

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Charles N. Atkins recalls his early civil rights activities in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Charles N. Atkins remembers integrating the Casady School in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Charles N. Atkins describes his earliest childhood memories

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Charles N. Atkins describes his community in rural Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Charles N. Atkins describes his experiences of desegregation in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Charles N. Atkins remembers the desegregation of the Oklahoma City Public Schools

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Charles N. Atkins talks about his mother's activism

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Charles N. Atkins describes his mother's political career

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Charles N. Atkins describes his mother's involvement with the National Black Political Conventions

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Charles N. Atkins describes his experiences at Howard University, pt. 1

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Charles N. Atkins describes is experiences at Howard University in Washington, D.C., pt. 2

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Charles N. Atkins describes his undergraduate honors thesis

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Charles N. Atkins talks about his high school activism

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Charles N. Atkins describes his early experiences of religion

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Charles N. Atkins talks about his decision to attend Harvard Law School

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Charles N. Atkins remembers his professors and classmates at Harvard Law School

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Charles N. Atkins talks about the diverse student body of Harvard Law School

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Charles N. Atkins recalls Harvard University's divestment from South Africa

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Charles N. Atkins talks about his summer law internships

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Charles N. Atkins describes his experiences at Akin Gump Strauss Hauer and Feld LLP

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Charles N. Atkins describes his role in the Office of Public Liaison under President Jimmy Carter

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Charles N. Atkins remembers working as legislative counsel to Senator David Boren

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Charles N. Atkins remembers meeting Clarence Thomas and Anita Hill

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Charles N. Atkins describes his work on the Democratic Party Platform Committee

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Charles N. Atkins narrates his photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$5

DAStory

3$5

DATitle
Charles N. Atkins recalls his early civil rights activities in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Charles N. Atkins describes his work on the Democratic Party Platform Committee
Transcript
And so we have here, here is, (displays photograph) here is my--this is in Oklahoma City [Oklahoma], in, on November 7th in 1955. This is a particular photograph that was done by an Associated Press for--person. This was upon the, the, upon the particular ruling by the Interstate Commerce Commission that basically train travel in, would, would basically no longer be, be segregated. And so this was in the Santa Fe train station, Oklahoma City [Santa Fe Depot, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma], in 1955, and so I'm that young, almost three year old, in my dad's [Charles N. Atkins, Sr.] arms and we were a nice looking Negro family, and we were looking up at a sign that said Negro waiting room. And so this is the whole story about how I was born into Jim Crow. As a, as a young child at the ages of four and five I remember participating in sit-in demonstrations in Oklahoma City, which were 1957, 1958. We had the longest continuous sit-in of demonstration in American history, which was, which was basically prior to Greensboro [North Carolina] in 1960. In Oklahoma City, the NAACP Youth Council led by Miss, Miss Clara Luper, all of us marched, and so as a child I marched. And I have vivid memories of white and colored signs. And, and, and so I also attended an outstanding segregated elementary school, Edwards Elementary School [Oklahoma City, Oklahoma], where I, I got a, a great start and then in 1965, we--our particular family is third or fourth generation Episcopalian, active in the Episcopal church in Oklahoma City. My older brother Edmund [Edmund E. Atkins] who was in that particular photo, was not allowed to attend the Episcopal prep school in Oklahoma City, which is Casady School, which is still absolutely the best school in Oklahoma, Casady School. He was not allowed to attend even though it is an Episcopal school.$$Because he was black?$$Yes. And it was all-white.$$And what year was this?$$This was up until '65 [1965]. In '65 [1965] I was part of four students who integrated Casady School as sixth graders, and it was all students from our church, and which was a black Episcopalian church in Oklahoma City, the wonderful, the wonderful Church of the Redeemer [Episcopal Church of the Redeemer] and so I integrated Casady School, a tremendous education. I studied classical Greek. I studied Latin. I studied French. It was, it was a top notch, you know, more of a New England style prep school with, with chapel every day, uniforms, jackets and ties at chapel and at lunch and I have lifelong friends. It was a tremendously positive experience integrating that.$David Boren was a good man. He was a seatmate of Hannah's [Atkins' mother, Hannah Diggs Atkins] in the Oklahoma Legislature. He was in the, the House of Representatives [Oklahoma House of Representatives], he was one of the youngest governors and he was the close, close friend. I worked for him. He was a good friend of my dad's [Charles N. Atkins, Sr.]. He, he gave a wonderful eulogy at Hannah's funeral, along with the governor and, but we will get to that in our next round.$$Okay.$$But from the, from the Boren office, my dear, my dear late wife Gayle [Gayle Perkins Atkins], she was editorial director at, at Channel 4 [WRC-TV] in D.C. [Washington, D.C.]. She had, she had, she had a particular session with Ann Lewis who is basically Barney Frank's sister, and Lewis was a major, major Democratic Party activist. And she mentioned to Gayle that there was this woman in [U.S.] Congress from Queens [New York] named, named Geraldine Ferraro who was gonna be chair of the Democratic Party Platform Committee, and so Ann Lewis mentioned to Gayle, "You know what, we're doing staff for the, for the Democratic Party Platform Committee," and she asked Gayle, "Do you know anybody who, who, might be good on that staff?" And Gayle said, "Yeah, my husband" (laughter). And so I became right after I worked, I helped David Boren do the response to the State of the Union, I helped him write that, I moved over to the, to the DNC [Democratic National Committee]. This was '83 [1983]. This was basically February of '83 [1983], and I, it was Susan Estrich who was also, who was a year or two, year or two of me--year or two ahead of me at Harvard Law School [Cambridge, Massachusetts], was the first, the first woman to be president of the Harvard Law Review. She was active in, in, in, in Democratic Party politics. And so it was, it was me and Susan Estrich who headed up the, that, that, that staff for the Democratic Party platform. All throughout '83 [1983] and '84 [1984], so it was Jesse Jackson [HistoryMaker Reverend Jesse L. Jackson] campaign, Gary Hart campaign and Walter Mondale campaign and we held maybe ten or fifteen hearings. [HistoryMaker] Richard Arrington who was the, the, the first black mayor of, of Birmingham [Alabama], was the chair of the, was the basically deputy chair and then Geraldine was the chair, so after doing that whole, that whole complex Democratic Party platform with three active Democratic Party--three active presidential campaigns, I'm there in San Francisco [California] at the Democratic, at the, at the San Francisco convention [1984 Democratic National Convention, San Francisco, California], and I'm there in the hotel suite with, with Geraldine. I was there when Walter Mondale called her to join the 1984 ticket, and so I was her first hug. I gave her her first hug and she said, "Charles [HistoryMaker Charles N. Atkins] I want you on the campaign plane with me, I want you there with me." And so I became deputy campaign manager, 1984 presidential campaign and it was a great, eighty-four campaign stops in twenty-five states and a great historical experience, even though we lost, lost forty-nine states, it was a great experience.

The Honorable James R. Spencer

Judge James R. Spencer was born on March 25, 1949 in Florence, South Carolina. He was among the first in his family to attend college, enrolling at Clark College in Atlanta, Georgia in 1967. He graduated magna cum laude in 1971, and went on to study at Harvard Law School, where he obtained his J.D. degree in 1974. The following year, Spencer graduated in the top five percent of his class at the Judge Advocate General’s School at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville, Virginia. Spencer later studied at the Howard University School of Divinity, graduating in 1985.

Spencer’s interest in law began in 1967, while working under civil rights activist Marian Wright Edelman at her public interest law firm, the Washington Research Project. Upon graduating from Harvard Law School, he worked as a staff attorney with the Atlanta Legal Aid Society. He went on to serve as a prosecutor, and then as chief of justice, with the U.S. Army Judge Advocate General’s Corps from 1975 to 1978. From there, Spencer became an assistant attorney general, serving the U.S. Attorney’s Office of District of Columbia. He was the first African American attorney assigned to the office’s Major Crimes Division. In 1983, he moved to the U.S. Attorney’s Office of the Eastern District of Virginia, where he remained until 1986 when he was appointed by President Ronald Reagan as the first African American district court judge of the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia. From 1987 to 1996, Spencer also served as an adjunct professor of law at the University of Virginia. In 2004, Spencer was appointed as chief justice of the district, serving until 2011. In 2014, Spencer assumed the rank of senior judge. He presided over a number of high-profile cases over the course of his career, including the 2006 patent infringement suit between Research In Motion, the maker of BlackBerry devices, and the patent holding company NTP, Inc.; and the 2014 corruption trial of Virginia Governor Bob McDonnell.

Spencer was a member of numerous professional, civic and fraternal organizations, including the State Bar of Georgia, the District of Columbia Bar, the Virginia State Bar, the National Bar Association, the Old Dominion Bar Association, and the Federal Bar Association, Big Brothers of America, the NAACP, Omega Psi Phi Fraternity, Alpha Kappa Mu, Sigma Pi Phi, and Phi Beta Kappa. Spencer also earned a black belt and was a member of the U.S. Karate Association. He served as associate pastor of the 3rd Union Baptist Church in King William, Virginia.

Judge James R. Spencer was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on December 8, 2016.

Accession Number

A2016.132

Sex

Male

Interview Date

12/8/2016

Last Name

Spencer

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Middle Name

R.

Schools

Clark Atlanta University

Harvard Law School

Howard University School of Divinity

Carver Elementary Magnet School

Wilson High School

Wilson Junior High School

First Name

James

Birth City, State, Country

Florence

HM ID

SPE64

Favorite Season

Fall

State

South Carolina

Favorite Vacation Destination

Nassau

Favorite Quote

I Was Young But Now I'm Old But I Have Never Seen The Righteous Forsaken.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Virginia

Birth Date

3/25/1949

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Richmond

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Rib Eye With Grits

Short Description

Judge James R. Spencer (1949 - ) worked for civil rights activist Marian Wright Edelman at the Washington Research Project, and was the first African American federal district court judge in the Eastern District of Virginia.

Employment

Washington Research Project

Atlanta Legal Aid Society

U.S. Army Judge Advocate General's Corps

District of Columbia

Eastern District of Virginia

University of Virginia

Favorite Color

Blue

DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of The Honorable James R. Spencer's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - The Honorable James R. Spencer lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - The Honorable James R. Spencer describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - The Honorable James R. Spencer describes his father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - The Honorable James R. Spencer talks about his father's military service

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - The Honorable James R. Spencer describes how his parents met

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - The Honorable James R. Spencer lists his siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - The Honorable James R. Spencer describes his earliest childhood memory

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - The Honorable James R. Spencer remembers his early neighborhood in Florence, South Carolina

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - The Honorable James R. Spencer describes the sights, sounds and smells of his childhood

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - The Honorable James R. Spencer remembers segregation in Florence, South Carolina

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - The Honorable James R. Spencer remembers an early case in his judicial career

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - The Honorable James R. Spencer recalls working as a caddy at Florence Country Club in Florence, South Carolina

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - The Honorable James R. Spencer remembers a racist encounter at a movie theater

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - The Honorable James R. Spencer talks about his education at Carver Elementary School in Florence, South Carolina

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - The Honorable James R. Spencer remembers a discouraging teacher

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - The Honorable James R. Spencer recalls reading Jet Magazine as a child

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - The Honorable James R. Spencer remembers an early glimpse into the legal profession

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - The Honorable James R. Spencer talks about the Civil Rights Movement

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - The Honorable James R. Spencer remembers attending Center Baptist Church in Florence, South Carolina

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - The Honorable James R. Spencer recalls the school system in Florence, South Carolina

Tape: 2 Story: 11 - The Honorable James R. Spencer talks about his activities at Wilson High School in Florence, South Carolina

Tape: 2 Story: 12 - The Honorable James R. Spencer remembers playing music with his brother and cousin

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - The Honorable James R. Spencer remembers the social gatherings of his youth

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - The Honorable James R. Spencer recalls his decision to attend Clark College in Atlanta, Georgia

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - The Honorable James R. Spencer talks about classism in the South

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - The Honorable James R. Spencer recalls the congregation's support of his educational endeavors

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - The Honorable James R. Spencer remembers his father's death

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - The Honorable James R. Spencer recalls his summer jobs

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - The Honorable James R. Spencer remembers his early influences at Clark College in Atlanta, Georgia

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - The Honorable James R. Spencer recalls learning about African American history at Wilson High School

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - The Honorable James R. Spencer remembers meeting Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Tape: 3 Story: 10 - The Honorable James R. Spencer talks about his summer internship with the Washington Research Project in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 3 Story: 11 - The Honorable James R. Spencer remembers his professors at Clark College

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - The Honorable James R. Spencer remembers his mentors at Clark College in Atlanta, Georgia

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - The Honorable James R. Spencer recalls his decision to attend Harvard Law School

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - The Honorable James R. Spencer describes his first year at Harvard Law School

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - The Honorable James R. Spencer remembers his classmates and professors at Harvard Law School

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - The Honorable James R. Spencer recalls his work experiences at Harvard Law School

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - The Honorable James R. Spencer talks about passing the bar exam

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - The Honorable James R. Spencer describes his experiences in Judge Advocate General's Corps

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - The Honorable James R. Spencer talks about his family

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - The Honorable James R. Spencer recalls being hired as an assistant United States attorney

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - The Honorable James R. Spencer describes his experiences as assistant district attorney

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - The Honorable James R. Spencer recalls attending Howard University School of Divinity

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - The Honorable James R. Spencer remembers his appointment as a federal judge

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - The Honorable James R. Spencer describes the work of a federal judge

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - The Honorable James R. Spencer recalls meeting Oliver W. Hill

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - The Honorable James R. Spencer reflects upon his role as a federal judge

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - The Honorable James R. Spencer remembers the patent case, NTP, Inc. v. Research in Motion, Ltd., pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - The Honorable James R. Spencer remembers the patent case, NTP, Inc. v. Research in Motion, Ltd., pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - The Honorable James R. Spencer recalls his efforts to improve diversity in government positions in Richmond, Virginia

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - The Honorable James R. Spencer recalls becoming chief judge

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - The Honorable James R. Spencer remembers the Kemba Smith case

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - The Honorable James R. Spencer talks about discriminatory drug laws

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - The Honorable James R. Spencer talks about his involvement with police brutality cases

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - The Honorable James R. Spencer describes his role as senior judge

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - The Honorable James R. Spencer shares his judicial philosophy

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - The Honorable James R. Spencer reflects upon his life

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - The Honorable James R. Spencer talks about his children's accomplishments

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - The Honorable James R. Spencer describes his hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - The Honorable James R. Spencer describes how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - The Honorable James R. Spencer narrates his photographs

Charles Russell Branham

Historian Charles Russell Branham was born on May 25, 1945 in Chicago, Illinois to Charles Etta Halthon and Joseph H. Branham. Branham graduated from Manassas High School in Memphis, Tennessee in 1963. He graduated Phi Beta Kappa from Rockford College in 1967 and earned his Ph.D. in history in 1980 from The University of Chicago where he was a Ford Foundation Fellow.

Branham has been a professor of history at various colleges in Chicago, including Chicago State University and Roosevelt University. From 1974 through 1985, he taught at The University of Illinois at Chicago where he was awarded the Silver Circle Excellence in Teaching Award. From 1985 through 1991, Branham was an Associate Professor at Northwestern University, and from 1991 through 1997, an Associate Professor at Indiana University Northwest. In 1984, Branham began working as an historian at the DuSable Museum of Afro-American History where he served as Director of Education and is now Senior Historian. Branham is the author of many publications on African American history and politics, including The Transformation of Black Political Leadership in Chicago, 1865 – 1943.

Branham is a member of the Organization of American Historians and the Association for the Study of Afro-American Life and History. He served on the Board of Directors for The Chicago Metro History Fair, DuSable Museum of African American History, the Illinois Humanities Council and on the Executive Committee for the Chicago Archives of the Blues Tradition. From 1989-1990, he was the Chairman of the United Way of Chicago’s Committee on Race, Ethnic and Religious Discrimination. In addition, Branham has served as a consultant to the Chicago Board of Education for their curriculum development for a Black History study unit. Branham also sat on the Board of Trustees for Rockford College from 1990 to 1992. He won an Emmy Award as the writer, co-producer and host of "The Black Experience," the first nationally televised series on African American History. In 1983, Branham was an expert witness in the PACI case which forced the City of Chicago to give greater political representation to African Americans, and in 1990, his testimony before the Chicago City Council laid the foundation for the city's minority business affirmative action program.

Branham was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on November 3, 2008.

Accession Number

A2008.119

Sex

Male

Interview Date

11/3/2008

Last Name

Branham

Maker Category
Middle Name

Russell

Occupation
Schools

Manassas High School

Lincoln Elementary School

Douglas Elementary School

Rockford University

University of Chicago

First Name

Charles

Birth City, State, Country

Chicago

HM ID

BRA11

Favorite Season

Fall

State

Illinois

Favorite Vacation Destination

Tuscany, Italy

Favorite Quote

None

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Illinois

Birth Date

5/25/1945

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Chicago

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Ice Cream

Short Description

History professor Charles Russell Branham (1945 - ) was the senior historian at the DuSable Museum of Afro-American History and a professor of history at various universities, including Chicago State University, Roosevelt University, the University of Illinois at Chicago, Northwestern University, and Indiana University Northwest.

Employment

Roosevelt University

Chicago State University

University of Illinois at Chicago

Northwestern University

DuSable Museum of African American History

Indiana University

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Charles Russell Branham's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Charles Russell Branham lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Charles Russell Branham describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Charles Russell Branham describes his mother's life in Memphis, Tennessee

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Charles Russell Branham describes his father's family background, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Charles Russell Branham describes his father's family background, pt. 2

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Charles Russell Branham talks about Olivet Baptist Church in Chicago, Illinois, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Charles Russell Branham talks about Olivet Baptist Church in Chicago, Illinois, pt. 2

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Charles Russell Branham describes his father

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Charles Russell Branham describes his family

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Charles Russell Branham describes his parents' personalities and who he takes after

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Charles Russell Branham describes his earliest childhood memories

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Charles Russell Branham describes the sights of his childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Charles Russell Branham recalls his parents' divorce

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Charles Russell Branham describes his home in Memphis, Tennessee

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Charles Russell Branham remembers his early education

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Charles Russell Branham recalls his influences during high school

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Charles Russell Branham remembers Manassas High School in Memphis, Tennessee

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Charles Russell Branham recalls his speech at the American Legion Boys State

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Charles Russell Branham recalls his activities at Manassas High School in Memphis, Tennessee

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Charles Russell Branham recalls working for the Memphis World newspaper

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Charles Russell Branham remembers his teachers at Manassas High School

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Charles Russell Branham describes segregation in Memphis, Tennessee

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Charles Russell Branham recalls civil rights efforts in Memphis, Tennessee

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Charles Russell Branham recalls applying to Rockford College in Rockford, Illinois

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Charles Russell Branham remembers his freshman year at Rockford College

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Charles Russell Branham recalls his experiences of racial discrimination at Rockford College

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Charles Russell Branham recalls developing his confidence at Rockford College

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Charles Russell Branham recalls meeting gubernatorial candidate Ronald Reagan

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Charles Russell Branham recalls studying history at Rockford College

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Charles Russell Branham recalls winning a Ford Foundation fellowship

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Charles Russell Branham recalls working in factories in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Charles Russell Branham recalls his experiences at the University of Chicago

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Charles Russell Branham describes his studies at the University of Chicago

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Charles Russell Branham recalls teaching African American history

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Charles Russell Branham describes his activism in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Charles Russell Branham remembers the Communiversity

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Charles Russell Branham remembers 'The Black Experience,' pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Charles Russell Branham remembers 'The Black Experience,' pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Charles Russell Branham remembers 'The Black Experience,' pt. 3

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Charles Russell Branham recalls completing his dissertation

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Charles Russell Branham remembers being hired at University of Illinois at Chicago

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Charles Russell Branham recalls working on Harold Washington's first mayoral campaign

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Charles Russell Branham recalls testifying about disenfranchisement in Chicago

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Charles Russell Branham reflects upon his interest in black history

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Charles Russell Branham remembers working for the 1984 Democratic National Convention

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Charles Russell Branham recalls designing an exhibit about Harold Washington

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Charles Russell Branham recalls joining the DuSable Museum of African American History in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Charles Russell Branham describes the DuSable Museum of African American History

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - Charles Russell Branham describes his publications

Tape: 6 Story: 10 - Charles Russell Branham reflects upon his life

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Charles Russell Branham recalls his exhibit on Provident Hospital, pt. 1

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - Charles Russell Branham recalls his exhibit on Provident Hospital, pt. 2

Tape: 7 Story: 3 - Charles Russell Branham describes his work on 'The Killing Floor'

Tape: 7 Story: 4 - Charles Russell Branham recalls testifying about the City of Chicago's affirmative action policy

Tape: 7 Story: 5 - Charles Russell Branham describes his concerns for the African American community

Tape: 7 Story: 6 - Charles Russell Branham reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 7 Story: 7 - Charles Russell Branham reflects upon his family and friends

Tape: 7 Story: 8 - Charles Russell Branham describes his experiences of police harassment

Tape: 7 Story: 9 - Charles Russell Branham recalls being threatened with a gun by a police officer

Tape: 8 Story: 1 - Charles Russell Branham describes how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 8 Story: 2 - Charles Russell Branham narrates his photographs, pt. 1

Tape: 8 Story: 3 - Charles Russell Branham narrates his photographs, pt. 2

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$7

DAStory

5$9

DATitle
Charles Russell Branham describes segregation in Memphis, Tennessee
Charles Russell Branham recalls being threatened with a gun by a police officer
Transcript
Now I didn't ask you about high school, but did--was there any black history taught in high school in Memphis [Tennessee] (simultaneous)?$$(Simultaneous) No. I'm glad you asked that because, Johnny Johnson [John Johnson, Jr.] was the coach, a wonderful guy, showed a lot of newsreels, because we had to reel--the reel thing. We had one day when they mentioned black history and it was virtually all about Booker T. Washington, and he didn't know anything about Booker T. Washington. He just mentioned him. So there really wasn't any teaching of black history. Black history was displayed in ironic ways. For example, of course, when I grew up you had the black and white signs. There was the Malco Theatre [Memphis, Tennessee], which was the most prominent theater downtown, and African Americans and whites, of course, sat separately and you did not know from the sign where the colored entrance was. What you did was you went to the side, and when you went in, there was a picture of Booker T. Washington and you knew from that picture this is where black people were supposed to go, so we would go up to the balcony. I remember watching 'The Ten Commandments' at the Malco Theatre in the balcony, which probably was better seats than on the main level, but that was your way of knowing African American history. I mean, there were stores in Memphis when I was growing up where African Americans could buy clothing, but they couldn't try it on, and so you learned your African American history through reality. I remember coming back from college [Rockford College; Rockford University, Rockford, Illinois] my freshman year and I had a button, "Goldwater [Barry Goldwater] in 1864," and I remember my mother [Charles Hurd Branham Halthon] ripping that button off of me and screaming at me. I thought I was a wise guy, Barry Goldwater, 1864. I was obviously making fun of what I considered his retrograde ideas. My mother saw it quite differently. You see, my mother remembers when African Americans were run out of Memphis for practicing with whites, like Jimmie Lunceford, who was run out of Memphis. My mother knew that I was only a few years older than Emmett Till, and she remembered Emmett Till and so she was not gonna, she said that she screamed at me. She said, "Those white people will kill you. Take that thing off your--those white people will kill you." And, my mother was being cautious. She was being protective. She was afraid that I would say something or do something or wear a button in front of the wrong white person and that I could be killed and, of course, she had enough practical history to support that. I mean, I remember my first civil rights demonstration in Memphis and not telling my mother. My mother had been very--had made it very clear. "I am a school teacher. If you're arrested in a civil rights demonstration and your name gets in the paper, they can fire me for being your mother." Whether or not they could, I'm sure they had in the past, and so I actually was arrested but never printed or fingerprinted or anything. They just brought us all in and let us all go. Probably because there were too many of us and also probably because we weren't doing anything really but just walking up and down the street.$$What was the issue?$$Well, Memphis was a completely segregated city in 19--in the late 1960s. As I said before, the first whites I met I met in the summer after I graduated from high school [Manassas High School, Memphis, Tennessee]. There was a white lady who actually put together a little group of blacks and whites. We would meet at her home and we read 'Lord of the Flies' [William Golding] and we read a number of other books and we would discuss it and there were four African Americans, all of us going to white schools; one was going to Yale [Yale University, New Haven, Connecticut], he flunked out. He had an eight hundred out of eight hundred--no a sixteen hundred out of sixteen hundred on the SATs and he was very, very smart. He bought a smoking jacket and just got too popular and just didn't do any work, but I don't remember any of us, after having been introduced to the whites at this group, ever speaking to them and I don't remember any of us ever saying anything when the book discussion was going on. We just listened to the white kids talk and it was her attempt to provide some integration, and it didn't work. The white kids were very nice, and we all sat in the same room which was startling. It was in her home, but we didn't interact. We were scared.$And my worst experience actually was when I was doing my TV show ['The Black Experience']. I had been introduced to a young lady by John Tweedle, and I had just been interviewing Lorenzo Dow Turner and Lorenzo Dow Turner was the author of 'Africanisms in the Gullah Dialect,' and he taught at Roosevelt University [Chicago, Illinois], although he'd retired by the time I started teaching at Roosevelt, and he was just the most gracious of people. He lived in Hyde Park [Chicago, Illinois] and so I went to his home and he pulled out this old phonograph with a pine needle, which he stuck in the arm and then he brought out these big metallic records and put them on the turn table, and put the pine needle on the turntable, cranked it and I could hear the actual voices of the people he'd interviewed when he wrote his famous book and so I was on cloud nine, because this was something we could use on the show. We could photograph this and we could show him as a pioneer scholar and I was one to promote African American scholarship, and at the same time we're learning something about Africanisms. We're talking about perhaps the most African people in America and it's a culture as you know that has virtually disappeared and so I was driving down Lake Shore Drive and I ended up at 71st [Street] and I just happened to drop by this girl's apartment building and I knocked on the door and they, I mean I was buzzed in and so I get on the elevator and go up and as I get ready to knock on the door, the door opens, a guy comes out, pushes me against the wall, puts a gun to my head, and says he's going to kill me. Apparently, she had a boyfriend. Apparently she was breaking up with the boyfriend. Apparently he thought I was the cause. He held me there for what seemed like two hours. It was probably more like twenty minutes. He was a police officer. He explained to me that he was going to say that I was breaking in, and that he was going to say he had to shoot me as a robber. I, of course, basically said nothing, except I looked him in the eye, maintained eye contact, which of course, is the worst thing you can do, basically. You're not supposed to maintain eye contact if people actually have a gun to your head, and basically said, "You know, you don't want to do this. You'll never get away with it." And I apparently learned later that you're not supposed to say that. He kept telling me he was going to kill me. After twenty minutes, he decided he wasn't going to kill me. He puts the gun away, gets on an elevator and leaves. Later he tells her mother, he calls her mother and says, "I almost killed a guy." I called several friends of mine because I have a lot of ex-students who are police officers and I talk to them about it, and to a man they said--now remember this is the 1970s--they said, "Leave it alone." I mean, Wilbourne Woods, who was Mayor Washington's [Harold Washington] guard. Wilbourne Woods was a student of mine and we got to be friends because he would always reassure me that he was not an FBI [Federal Bureau of Investigation] agent when he was in my class, and he said, "Look. These guys will put drugs in your car. They will not let one of their own go down, so just leave it alone." So, I don't know how many people have ever had a gun put to their heads, but I was actually kind of proud of the fact that I didn't panic. We now know a little bit about what you're likely to do, whether or not you can remain calm, when you have a gun put to your head, but I never want that to happen again.$$Yeah, Wilbourne was one of the members of the African American Police League [Afro-American Patrolmen's League; African American Police League], yeah.$$(Nods head) And he told me, he said, "Leave it alone." He says, "I'll talk to the guy but don't turn him in because they'll end up putting drugs in your car."

William T. Coleman, Jr.

William Thaddeus Coleman, Jr., was the first African American to clerk for a U.S. Supreme Court justice, served as secretary of transportation under the Ford administration, and helped try numerous important civil rights cases. He was born on July 7, 1920, in the Germantown district of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, to William Thaddeus and Laura Beatrice Mason Coleman. Coleman’s father was a director of the Germantown boys club for forty years, and as a result, Coleman met many African American notables at an early age, including W.E.B. DuBois. After attending an all-black segregated elementary school, Coleman attended the mostly-white Germantown High School. After high school, Coleman attended the University of Pennsylvania, where he graduated summa cum laude with his B.A. degree in 1941. Eager to work in law ever since childhood, Coleman attended Harvard Law School later that year. In 1943, he joined the U.S. Army Air Corps. As defense counsel for eighteen courts-martial, he won acquittals for sixteen. He returned to Harvard Law School after the war.

In 1946, Coleman received his L.L.B. degree magna cum laude from Harvard Law School, after becoming the third African American man to serve on the board of editors of the Harvard Law Review. He was a Langdell fellow, and was therefore permitted to stay at Harvard Law School to study for an extra year. In 1947, he was admitted to the bar and obtained a job working as a law clerk with Judge Herbert F. Goodrich of the Third Circuit’s U.S. Court of Appeals. The following year, he became U.S. Supreme Court Associate Justice Felix Frankfurter’s law clerk, and as such, he was the first African American to clerk for the U.S. Supreme Court.

In 1949, Coleman joined Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton, and Garrison, a noted New York law firm, where he met Thurgood Marshall and worked pro bono to assist Marshall with NAACP cases. In 1952, Coleman became the first African American to join an all-white firm, and in 1966, he became partner at Dilworth, Paxon, Kalish, Levy and Coleman. Coleman worked in the Civil Rights Movement throughout the 1950s, including five cases for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund (LDF) cases that led directly to the Brown v. Board of Education decision. He also served as co-counsel for McLaughlin v. Florida, a case that decided the constitutionality of interracial marriages.

In 1959, President Eisenhower convinced Coleman to work on the President’s commission on employment policy; Coleman continued to work in presidential commissions for Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon, including the Warren commission’s investigation of Kennedy’s assassination. In 1971, Coleman was elected president of the NAACP-LDF. In 1975, Coleman was appointed President Gerald Ford's Secretary of Transportation, becoming only the second African American to hold a cabinet-level position. During his tenure, he created the first Statement of National Transportation Policy in U.S. history. When Carter became president in 1976, Coleman returned to the private sector, becoming a senior partner of the Los Angeles-based O’Melveny & Myers law firm. In 1995, Coleman was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom for his contributions to the legal profession and to society.

Coleman passed away on March 31, 2017 at the age of 96.

Accession Number

A2006.132

Sex

Male

Interview Date

11/7/2006

Last Name

Coleman

Maker Category
Middle Name

T.

Schools

Germantown High School

Roosevelt Middle School

Thomas Meehan School

John E. Hill School

Harvard Law School

University of Pennsylvania

First Name

William

Birth City, State, Country

Philadelphia

HM ID

COL09

Favorite Season

Summer

State

Pennsylvania

Favorite Vacation Destination

Vermont

Favorite Quote

None

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

District of Columbia

Birth Date

7/7/1920

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Washington

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Wife's Cooking

Death Date

3/31/2017

Short Description

Corporate lawyer and presidential secretary William T. Coleman, Jr. (1920 - 2017 ) was the second African American to hold a Cabinet position at Harvard Law School, the first African American clerk of the U.S. Supreme Court and the first African American to join an all-white law firm; he was senior partner of O’Melveny & Myers LLP.

Employment

U.S Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit

U.S. Supreme Court

Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison

NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, Inc.

Dilworth, Paxson, Kalish and Levy

U.S. Department of Transportation

O'Melveny and Myers

Favorite Color

Dark Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr.'s interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes how his parents met

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his siblings and the origins of his name

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his earliest childhood memory

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes the sights, sounds and smells of his childhood

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his community in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr, describes his early racial identity

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his family traditions

Tape: 1 Story: 12 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his early education

Tape: 1 Story: 13 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his reading disability

Tape: 1 Story: 14 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about his family's history

Tape: 1 Story: 15 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls St. Barnabas' Episcopal Church in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his early aspiration to become a lawyer

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers his early interest in civil rights

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes the Quaker philosophy

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his high school experiences

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers his friends from high school

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his high school influences and mentors

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his decision to attend the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls his initial experiences at the University of Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about attending an integrated university

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers his classmate from University of Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 11 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls joining Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity

Tape: 2 Story: 12 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his impressions upon leaving University of Pennsylvania

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers his motivation to pursue a law career

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes the influence of politics in his early life

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls his decision to attend Harvard Law School

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his experience at Harvard Law School

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls his U.S. Army Air Corps pilot training

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers the U.S. Army Air Corps

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls his experience of discrimination in the U.S. military

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers meeting Thurgood Marshall

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his wife, Lovida Hardin Coleman, Jr.

Tape: 3 Story: 10 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls his return to Harvard Law School

Tape: 3 Story: 11 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his friendship with Elliot Lee Richardson

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his role on the Harvard Law Review while at law school

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about Charles Hamilton Houston and William H. Hastie

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his interest in jurisprudence

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his classes at Harvard Law School

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls the debates at the Harvard Law Review

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers his early legal career

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls being the first black clerk to a U.S. Supreme Court justice

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers his clerkship under Felix Frankfurter

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes Justice Felix Frankfurter

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes the United States Supreme Court

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers segregation in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his position at Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton and Garrison LLP

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls his experience at Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton and Garrison LLP

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls working on Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Mr. William Coleman, Jr. reflects upon his involvement in Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes the research for Brown v. the Board of Education of Topeka

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls the attorneys involved in Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes the roles involved in winning a legal case

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes the cases consolidated into Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls the arguments of Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his relationship with Thurgood Marshall

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes the impact of Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about the language of deliberate speed in integration

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls being hired at Dilworth, Paxon, Kalish, and Levy

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers Dilworth, Paxon, Kalish and Levy

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his clients at Dilworth, Paxon, Kalish, Levy and Coleman

Tape: 6 Story: 10 - William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers the Girard College desegregation case

Tape: 6 Story: 11 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about his corporate board involvement

Tape: 6 Story: 12 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his casework at Dilworth, Paxson, Kalish and Levy

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his role in the Warren Commission, pt. 1

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his role in the Warren Commission, pt. 2

Tape: 7 Story: 3 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls Thurgood Marshall's appointment to the U.S. Supreme Court

Tape: 7 Story: 4 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about the Watergate Scandal

Tape: 7 Story: 5 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about his wife

Tape: 7 Story: 6 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his appointment to the Department of Transportation

Tape: 7 Story: 7 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about President Richard Milhous Nixon

Tape: 7 Story: 8 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about President Gerald Rudolph Ford, Jr.

Tape: 7 Story: 9 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his leadership of the U.S. Department of Transportation

Tape: 7 Story: 10 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls the busing crisis in Boston, Massachusetts

Tape: 8 Story: 1 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his aspirations as U.S. Secretary of the Department of Transportation

Tape: 8 Story: 2 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls joining the board of International Business Machines Corporation

Tape: 8 Story: 3 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers joining O'Melveny and Meyers LLP

Tape: 8 Story: 4 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes the clients and counsel at O'Melveny and Meyers LLP

Tape: 8 Story: 5 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about law firm branches in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 8 Story: 6 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his career at O'Melveny and Meyers LLP

Tape: 8 Story: 7 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about the impact of globalization on law

Tape: 8 Story: 8 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes the importance of business education for lawyers, pt. 1

Tape: 8 Story: 9 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about legal education

Tape: 8 Story: 10 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes the importance of business education for lawyers, pt. 2

Tape: 9 Story: 1 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about education in the African American community

Tape: 9 Story: 2 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. reflects upon integration

Tape: 9 Story: 3 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about President William Jefferson Clinton

Tape: 9 Story: 4 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his children

Tape: 9 Story: 5 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about his autobiography

Tape: 9 Story: 6 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. reflects upon his legacy and how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 9 Story: 7 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. narrates his photographs

DASession

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DATape

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DAStory

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DATitle
Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his early aspiration to become a lawyer
Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about the language of deliberate speed in integration
Transcript
I also read that you knew very early that you wanted to be a lawyer and you would, you know, sneak into courtrooms. Is that--what age was that?$$Oh, I, well, what it, what it was, or maybe about in the 1st of December they'd be two or three evening conversations between my mother [Laura Mason Coleman] and father [William T. Coleman, Sr.] as how much they could spend for Christmas. And, they finally would agree upon a certain amount and then my mother would say, "Well, tomorrow why don't you all meet me in town?" You know, we have to go in town to shop. And, my sister [Emma Coleman Dooley], when we got downtown would say, "Well, why don't you shop for me first? Because I could then take the trolley, go home and get dinner for you." And, I certainly didn't wanna stay around watching girls try on clothes and things like that. So, I'd go outside. But, it's cold as hell outside in '47 [1947]. So, and the city hall [Philadelphia City Hall, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania] was right across the street. And, I went in there and I went up to the fourth floor. And, they were arguing the case of Supreme Court of Pennsylvania. Well, I went down the courtroom and I saw that. And, I said, when I went home I said, "People get paid just for talking (laughter)," and so that gave me some interest. And, then I also had heard about, by that time, Charlie Houston [Charles Hamilton Houston], and Bill Hastie [William H. Hastie] and I knew Raymond Pace Alexander, and I thought that's clear. I also thought maybe I should be a doctor. But, when I was sixteen or seventeen and the doctor at the camp [Camp Emlen, Norwood, Pennsylvania] took me to see an operation on cancer of the guts so I figured that wasn't for me. So, I, so I, therefore, became a lawyer.$$Now, what, what age were you though, when you went over and, you know, went into your first courtroom? Do you remember what--?$$Oh, I couldn't've been, I'm probably about twelve or thirteen years of age, yeah.$$Can you just describe what, what that courtroom sort of felt, you know, like--?$$When I saw it, there was, what nine or seven people sitting on the bench. And, I remember one case, may not have been the first day, where the judge or the justice asked the lawyer about a certain case and he said, "Oh, judge, I don't know about that case we just decided it about a month ago." And, so, thereafter it really developed me to have it whenever I go into court. I always read the late, the late cases because I don't want anybody to, you know, tell me. But, it was, you know, we had a good time. I mean, I just--I enjoyed being a kid and we got exposed to a lot of thing. And, there was a, you know, a lot happening in Philadelphia [Pennsylvania].$You know, there'd been a lot of discussion about the, you know, the ruling [Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, 1954] in all deliberate, you know, with the ta- the line, "In all deliberate speed," you know. Do you think you understood that at the time? Whether you think there was great understanding of--?$$Well, there were, there was, there was great, there was great misunderstanding. And, what all deliberate speed meant because, what, it's 19--2006 now, and a lot of school are desegregated so, you know, and it was tough. And, obviously they--we did have two opinions. One was the Morton Salt case [United States v. Morton Salt Co., 1950] which says clearly that if somebody violates the law you have the right to make 'em end it immediately and the state could also make the violator do things which otherwise the violator wouldn't have to do. And, so, that's, so that, that was it and I had made a proposal to the, to Marshall [Thurgood Marshall] to handle the matter differently which he didn't follow. But, at the end of which I agree with what he did. But, I thought that if, if we had done something else, we'd probably could've done a little better than we did.$$Now, what was your, what was your--?$$Well, my provision was, was to say that you've said that this is illegal. Two, you gotta recognize that the life of a child for schooling is from the, is twelve years. I did not put kindergarten in 'cause I've always been suspicious of thirteen; so, I--twelve years. And, what you should do is go to court and tell the court that the governor of the state and/or the attorney general can, have to file a plan and it could start in the twelfth grade and desegregate downward. Or, it could start in the first grade descend upward, or if it would say, we'll start at the twelfth and first grade, you give 'em an extra year and leave it up to them to do it. Well, if you'd done that and then if the governor and the attorney general has to be the done to make the decision, that they will have made a difference. But, you know, we, people, everybody in the firm said, you can't do that 'cause you can't admit that once it's a violation that people can take their time to end it. And, so, as a result of that, we got what we got, which I don't think it certainly has not be as effective as it should be.$$Right. Because there was no time period or ways (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) No time period. And, nothing ever got done and you didn't, you know, recognize the real problems which is the, is, as--oh, I lost the case four to four so I can't say anything. But, in the Richmond school case [School Board of the City of Richmond v. State Board of Education of Virginia, 1973] where the judge below said that you can't desegregate these schools only by using Richmond [Virginia]. And, you have to bring in the force around the county and the court, hell no, you can't make 'em do that. Or, the San Antonio case [San Antonio Independent School District v. Rodriguez, 1973] where Marshall filed a dissent. He lost it six to three. That if you have, or you did in parts of Texas, a school district which was so poor that it couldn't afford it, that the state would have to have another taxing plan so that school districts have enough money. If you've been able to get those two things through, I think that we would've probably been better off than we are today.$$But, that, that, okay. Because really what it, what it left to was doing things legislatively on the state level?$$Yeah. Yeah (simultaneous).$$(Simultaneous) Right. And, doing cases, keep continue to do cases--$$Yeah. Yeah. But, if you've given them some incentive, you know, something. When you catch a guy doing wrong, if you say, well, if you decide to cooperate with me, I'll give you extra time. That's tends to appeal, you know. Or, you tell a guy, if you did something wrong if you don't plead guilty, I'm gonna give you twenty years. But, if you plead guilty so you could testify against somebody else, I'll give you five years. A lot of people would take the five. Even if nobody wants to go to jail for five--and I just think that psychologically that we never got that into the process.

Lorenzo Morris

Political science professor Lorenzo Morris, chair of the Political Science Department at Howard University, and author and consultant on international and American public policy and electoral behavior, was born in Poughkeepsie, New York, on October 27, 1946. Morris’s parents, Annie Leola Crouch Morris and Henry Grady Morris, Jr. moved to Poughkeepsie from Columbus, Georgia, before Morris was born. Morris received his early education in Poughkeepsie public schools before continuing his studies at Fisk University, Oberlin College, and Yale University; he received his Ph.D. and M.A. degrees in political science from the University of Chicago.

In addition to his position at Howard University, Morris’s academic career included teaching at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, a research fellowship at the Brookings Institution, and an appointment as a Senior Fellow in the Institute for the Study of Educational Policy. Outside of academia, Morris often provided commentary on public affairs for television and radio; he was the author of five scholarly books on race and presidential politics, higher education policy, and party politics as well as numerous articles on political matters including African American politics, and questions of race in American public policy. Internationally, Morris consulted on educational projects in Haiti, Botswana and Indonesia and on matters of electoral participation in Benin and Senegal. As part of the U.S. delegation to Haiti in 1990, Morris advised and observed during the election.

Morris’s additional leadership roles included acting as co-director of the Census Information Center at Howard University, president of the National Conference of Black Political Scientists, vice-chair of the University Senate, and president of Phi Beta Kappa at Howard University.

Accession Number

A2005.153

Sex

Male

Interview Date

6/28/2005

Last Name

Morris

Maker Category
Schools

Morse Young Child Magnet School

Poughkeepsi High School

Fisk University

University of Chicago

Massachusetts Institute of Technology

First Name

Lorenzo

Birth City, State, Country

Poughkeepsie

HM ID

MOR08

Favorite Season

Spring, Summer

State

New York

Favorite Vacation Destination

France

Favorite Quote

None

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

District of Columbia

Birth Date

10/27/1946

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Washington

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Turkey

Short Description

Political science professor Lorenzo Morris (1946 - ) is chair of the political science department at Howard University.

Employment

Bookings Institution

Howard University

U.S. Department of State

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Lorenzo Morris' interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Lorenzo Morris lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Lorenzo Morris describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Lorenzo Morris describes his father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Lorenzo Morris describes how his parents met and moved to Poughkeepsie, New York

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Lorenzo Morris describes his parents' personalities and lists his siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Lorenzo Morris describes his earliest childhood memory

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Lorenzo Morris describes the sights, sounds and smells of his childhood

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Lorenzo Morris describes his childhood personality

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Lorenzo Morris describes his early interest in political science

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Lorenzo Morris describes his education in Poughkeepsie, New York

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Lorenzo Morris recalls racial discrimination at Poughkeepsie High School

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Lorenzo Morris shares experiences with racial discrimination in debate clubs

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Lorenzo Morris describes attending Fisk University in Nashville, Tennessee

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Lorenzo Morris recalls the March on Washington

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Lorenzo Morris describes the Civil Rights Movement in Nashville, Tennessee

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Lorenzo Morris describes civil rights activities at Fisk University

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Lorenzo Morris remembers Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King's death

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Lorenzo Morris describes his studies and activities at Fisk University

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Lorenzo Morris recalls his decision to attend the University of Chicago

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Lorenzo Morris remembers influential people at the University of Chicago

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Lorenzo Morris talks about the Watergate Scandal

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Lorenzo Morris describes his political ideology

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Lorenzo Morris talks about travelling to England, France and Quebec, Canada

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Lorenzo Morris recalls his political work in Haiti

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Lorenzo Morris recalls his experience in Sierra Leone

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Lorenzo Morris describes his work at Howard University

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Lorenzo Morris describes his first book, 'The Chit'lin Controversy'

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Lorenzo Morris talks about his publications

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Lorenzo Morris reflects upon the National Black Political Convention and the Bakke Case

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Lorenzo Morris reflects on the tenth anniversary of the Million Man March

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Lorenzo Morris describes the National Conference of Black Political Scientists

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Lorenzo Morris describes the political scientists he admires

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Lorenzo Morris describes his hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Lorenzo Morris reflects upon his life

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Lorenzo Morris reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 4 Story: 10 - Lorenzo Morris talks about his wife, Marsha Morris

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Lorenzo Morris describes his family and in-laws

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Lorenzo Morris describes his volunteer work as a political analyst and advisor

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Lorenzo Morris describes how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Lorenzo Morris narrates his photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$4

DAStory

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DATitle
Lorenzo Morris recalls the March on Washington
Lorenzo Morris describes his first book, 'The Chit'lin Controversy'
Transcript
My only southern encounter before that was the March on Washington, '63 [1963].$$Okay so you went to the march?$$Um-hm.$$Well that's a big deal.$$Oh, it's a big deal for me (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) I think, that's an exciting story--$$Oh yeah it was an escape, my parents [Henry Morris, Jr. and Annie Crouch Morris] did one thing they encouraged us to travel whenever we could, but never without them so it was a big deal for me to go. But fortunately the young single minister was trying to date my aunt, who was a student at Howard [University, Washington, D.C.], and was visiting us during the summer and babysitting us during the summer so that in order to increase his social relations he promised to make sure that I was well supervised. And I can remember there was no seat left on the bus and you know those busses went (gestures), and so they put a stool on so I sat on the stool (laughter) from Poughkeepsie [New York] to Washington [D.C.] but my aunt lived in Washington so I'd been here many times before and I was struck by one thing I always tell my students because it's sort of like a kind of social moment of political significance not for the world but as a symbol is that when you got to Baltimore [Maryland] and I knew how far Baltimore was from D.C. the busses almost came to a stop. And as far as the eye could see, you could see them and there were these people singing, out and blacks off on the side of the road and I can remember them singing my grandmother's songs, 'Will the Circle Be Unbroken' and I thought, this was a whole new world. All my life they told me there were only a few of us blacks 'cause I hadn't seen that many and all of a sudden there were all of these people. All who thought the same thing, even knew the songs and it was the most moving moment for me, more than the--Mart- King's [Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.] speech which I liked, but it was that long slow movement from Baltimore to Washington where every fa- black people waved and symbolized experiences and things that I thought I knew. And so you know it was an indelible point in my mind.$$Yeah, I can see that, yeah, so were you very--when you were at the march were you very, were you close or were you far back in the crowd or (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) I was close enough; I always look for old pictures to see if you can see this kid, believe it or not I wasn't tall, swinging feet over the reservoir near the front. And you know, I got to see King as he came by and I remember [HistoryMaker] Andrew Young 'cause I thought he was young and he looked young. I remember Mahalia Jackson song ['How I Got Over'] which I thought was wonderful. As a snotty little debate student I analyzed King's speech so I really didn't pay attention to it as a moving--it just looked at the structure (laughter).$$What was the most, other than the numbers of people there, what was the most important thing about that day that you remember?$$I think it was the nervousness, not by me, everybody thinking--it's hard for--to remember that at the time people thought there would be violence. And I had all these little umble [ph.] notes, numbers to call and places to go if anything happened and of course nothing happened. But I can remember this sense of sort of success that it went off well that people came, that--oh and when I got back, my brothers and sisters--I had gone to something important. Now in Poughkeepsie [New York] anything outside of three blocks was already a big deal. I had gone to something important and come back. It was a, I mean, I've been to Madagascar, and I've been to--but never nothing equaled that trip to Washington and will ever in terms of distance, distance from an enclosed little environment.$Well, tell us about what, what was your first book and--?$$First book was done largely as a collection of work--research from graduate school [University of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois] with a friend of mine [HistoryMaker] Charles Henry who's down at Berkeley [University of California, Berkeley, Berkeley, California]. And it's called, 'The Chit'lin Controversy[: Race and Public Policy in America]', and as I've often noted to those who laugh about the title, it's the only book that I've had that's gone into several reprints. It was cert- I certainly would not have picked the title now, but I picked it then because it was a little bit shocking and disturbing and because I thought it reflected the shockingness, shocking character reflected part of the issue. It relates to a story by Bontemps--Arna Bontemps and Langston Hughes in a book called, 'Negro Folklore' ['The Book of Negro Folklore'] and in this book the black guy goes into a Washington, D.C. restaurant and I guess it's the late '50s [1950s] or early '60s [1960s] and he asked--it had just been desegregated, something people don't oft- often forget, that Washington was segregated. And, and they're very nice, it's an elegant restaurant and they show them to a table and they--and so he get--they give him the menu and he asks, "Do you have any collard greens?" And they say, "No." Then he said, "Do you have any black-eyed-peas?" And you know how the story goes, then finally he says, "Do you have any chit'lins?" and they say, "No." And he gets up, folds the menu, gets up and says, "You folks just aren't ready for desegregation." And why the story, because it's about the insignificance of what we've called physiological desegregation, of moving people and places that ignores the cultural components of choices and values. And so it focuses heavily, though not exclusively, on education and argues that letting blacks in the white schools if it doesn't change the structure of school administration or selection in choices is insignificant. And so we use this story like that, but we use the story because at the same time it's embarrassing quality, to some extent, 'The Chit'lin Controversy,' helps to bring attention to the fact that African Americans often did not want to recognize that cultural differences were significant, that if everybody had an equal chance of going to schools the testing issues would resolve themselves and people would come out on top which of course hasn't happened because there are cultural sig- significance factors in, in, in evaluation in system and merit. Which we need, I think, to recognize, but also largely we picked the title because we just referred to it, the chit'lin book and by the time it had gotten to the publisher we had no name for it (laughter)--$$(Laughter).$$--was what we called it because that was the opening story and so we left it.$$Okay, all right.$$But I think the value of the observations are significant today that differential systems of merit and reward and of judgment are, are not just equal among individuals because groups have effects on those things and those are things we call cultural.$$Okay, now that, that one was published in--$$Si- almost when I was still a student, it was '76 [1976].$$Okay.$$I wasn't still a student but it had been written when--it was written when I was a student.