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Sylvia Bozeman

Mathematician Sylvia Bozeman was born in Camp Hill, Alabama in 1947. She was the third of five children to Horace T., Sr. and Robbie Jones. Although her father worked with numbers daily in his profession as an insurance agent, it was her mother, a housewife, who first cultivated Bozeman’s love for mathematics. In 1964, Bozeman graduated valedictorian of Edward Bell High School in Camp Hill, and in the fall enrolled at Alabama A&M University in Huntsville, AL. Bozeman graduated from Alabama A&M University 1968 with her B.S. degree in mathematics. She went on to earn her M.A. and Ph.D. degrees in mathematics, from Vanderbilt University in 1971 and Emory University (Atlanta) in 1980, respectively. The areas of her research and publications have included operator theory in functional analysis, projects in image processing, and efforts to enhance the success of groups currently underrepresented in mathematics.

Upon graduation, Bozeman worked for one year as an instructor of mathematics at Tennessee State University, and then joined the faculty in the Mathematics Department at Spelman College in Atlanta, Georgia. She began as an instructor in 1972, became assistant professor in 1980, an associate in 1984, and full professor in 1991. Moreover, Bozeman served as chair of the Mathematics Department from 1982 to 1993, as adjunct faculty in the Math Department at Atlanta University from 1983 to 1985. In 1993, Bozeman established the Center for the Scientific Applications of Mathematics at Spelman College, and served as director. In a special partnership between the mathematics departments of Spelman College and Bryn-Mawr College, Bozeman co-directs Enhancing Diversity in Graduate Education (EDGE), a national program that assists women in mathematics in making the transition from college to graduate school. In 2007 the EDGE Program was given special recognition by the American Mathematics Society for its effectiveness.

Her noted scholarly activities include several publications, funded research (by NASA, the US Office of Army Research and the Kellogg Foundation); and her recognitions, contributions, and services as a gifted teacher and presenter. Bozeman is a member of the Mathematical Association of American, and, in 1997, she became the first African-American elected as an MAA Section Governor in the association’s eighty-two year history.

Bozeman and her husband, Dr. Robert Bozeman, live in Alabama with their two children, Robert, Jr. and Kizzie.

Sylvia Trimble Bozeman was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on December 18, 2012.

Accession Number

A2012.209

Sex

Female

Interview Date

12/18/2012

Last Name

Bozeman

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Middle Name

Trimble

Occupation
Schools

Emory University

Vanderbilt University

Alabama A&M University

Edward Bell High School

Agreeable Hill Elementary

Search Occupation Category
First Name

Sylvia

HM ID

BOZ02

Favorite Season

Christmas, Summer

Favorite Vacation Destination

Anywhere Near Water

Favorite Quote

None

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Georgia

Birth Date

8/1/1947

Speakers Bureau Region City

Atlanta

Favorite Food

Vegetables, Desserts

Short Description

Mathematician Sylvia Bozeman (1947 - ) was the founder and director of The Center for the Scientific Applications of Mathematics at Spelman College.

Employment

Spelman College

Favorite Color

Cranberry

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Sylvia Bozeman's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Sylvia Bozeman lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Sylvia Bozeman describes her mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her grandparents

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Sylvia Bozeman describes her father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her father's education and career aspirations

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her mother's career

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about how her parents met

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Sylvia Bozeman describes her parents' personalities and who she takes after

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her father's career

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her family

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Sylvia Bozeman describes her earliest childhood memories

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Sylvia Bozeman describes the sights, sounds and smells of growing up

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her elementary school experience

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her family's involvement in the church

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her memories of the Civil Rights Movement

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her high school

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about how black schools were named

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her high school experience

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her decision to attend Alabama A&M University

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about meeting her husband

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about Alabama A&M University

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her introduction to mathematical research

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about the political climate at Alabama A&M University

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Sylvia Bozeman remembers her career aspirations during her college years

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her female math instructors

Tape: 3 Story: 10 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her decision to attend Vanderbilt University

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about integration at Vanderbilt University

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her experience at Vanderbilt University

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about teaching at Tennessee State University

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her decision to attend Emory University for her Ph.D.

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Sylvia Bozeman describes her dissertation on operator theory

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her involvement with the black math community

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about black women mathematicians

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her post-doctoral employment prospects

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her career at Spelman College

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about the STEM initiatives at Spelman College

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her professional memberships and awards

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her work at Spelman College

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about the evolution of Spelman's STEM programs under the leadership of Dr. Etta Faulkner

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her professional affiliations

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about the renovation of Tapley Hall

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about the EDGE Program

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her presentation at the Congressional Diversity and Innovation Caucus

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about the government's inadequate support of STEM initiatives for HBCUs

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about black mathematicians

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about the future of the EDGE Program

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about Bob Moses' Algebra Project

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Sylvia Bozeman reflects upon her life choices

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Sylvia Bozeman reflects upon her legacy

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her husband, a fellow mathematician

Tape: 6 Story: 10 - Sylvia Bozeman talks about her children

Tape: 6 Story: 11 - Sylvia Bozeman reflects upon how she would like to be remembered

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Sylvia Bozeman describes her photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$4

DAStory

6$9

DATitle
Sylvia Bozeman talks about her introduction to mathematical research
Sylvia Bozeman talks about her career at Spelman College
Transcript
Now Huntsville is now the sight of a, is a NASA [National Aeronautics and Space Administration] center in Huntsville.$$Right. So Redstone Arsenal turned into Marshall Space Flight Center. And so that's one of the NASA sites. It was originally named Redstone Arsenal. But it is still the same NASA facility, evolved.$$Okay, so now it's the Marshall Space Center. So--$$Um-hmm. Robert worked out there when he, as a, you know sophomore, junior in college math major. He actually worked out there in the evenings as a, in an engineering position. That's what they called them, engineer.$$Okay. So this is, you really--did you follow the space program closely when you were growing up?$$I don't know that I followed it more close than anybody else but you know I was aware and I went out to, onto Redstone Arsenal. Actually my department chair, Dr. Howard Foster was a physicist and he had some connections out there and he hired me as a student research assistant to help him with some calculations and he took me out there and had them to give me access to a computer, a small computer, small meaning probably the size of that file cabinet over there but at that point it probably could do about as much as a little hand (unclear). But you know, but it was my first introduction to the idea of computing.$$Okay. So you learned how to--was the computer basically a big calculator or something that--?$$Yes, really. And I don't, I can't even remember how much I learned from being out there you know working on that because I didn't really have a lot of help. But I, you know I did help him with his calculations there and back in, back on campus using desk calculators to the point that he did acknowledge me in his paper when he published his results. And so you know that probably gave me my first introduction to research and then the next summer I can't--I would, and it must have been due to his influence but I ended up spending a summer at Harvard [University] in a summer program for students that came from minority institutions, mostly across the south. There was a summer program in Harvard in math. Well I guess it wasn't just in math. I was in math and some of the other students but some of the students were in other areas. So I spent a summer there and after that you know I was primed for graduate school. So I have to think that Dr. Foster influenced me to do these things. I can't imagine how else I would have ended up at Harvard in a summer program.$$Now what's his first name?$$Howard Foster.$$Okay, oh Dr. Howard Foster.$$Uh-huh.$$And he was, he taught physics and math at--?$$He was chair of the math and physics department. It was one department but he was a physicist and he taught physics.$$Now did he teach you calculus?$$No, just physics. He only taught physics but he was the chair of the--it was a combined department.$$So, but you had calculus I guess for the first time in--?$$I had calculus at Alabama A & M with Dr., I'll think of that in a minute. His name just slipped right out of my head. I had a Cuban calculus professor, Castillo, Dr. Castillo. He was one of my favorite teachers too, C-A-S-T-I-L-L-O.$$Okay.$$Dr. Castillo, so he taught all of us calculus, my husband, taught my husband calculus too.$Okay. Now I have this on the outline in 1977, is this when you founded the Center for Scientific Application of Mathematics?$$No, that happened in 1993 so I'm not sure.$$Okay, all right. I think I got it in the wrong place.$$'77 [1977], I'm trying to see what--$$Well lets not worry about that now and--$$Okay. I don't know what happened in '77 [1977]. I was trying to remember what that would have been.$$But I know that after, it sys here--$$I probably went back to graduate school in '77 [1977], I guess.$$Yeah, you had been working on your Ph.D.?$$Uh-huh, I went back in '76 [1976].$$Okay, but in '82 [1982], this is two years after your Ph.D., you became the chair of the math department here.$$Right, like I said more responsibilities, right? So it's unusual to, I thought it was unusual for somebody to be, have two, be two years out of graduate school and then become chair of the math department but that's what happened.$$Well in a time when you know technology and the science and technology are leaping forward, what--did you have--I mean what were your priorities as chairman of the math department at Spelman [College] in '82 [1982]?$$In--so I guess it was 1980 when I was finishing up. I think that--I guess I have my dates right. I had a student named Daphne Smith and she went, left Spelman and went to MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology, private research university] in math and she got a Ph.D. in math and probability. And it was a realization, it was--she was the first student out of this department, math department to get a Ph.D. in math. And I think it made us start to think more about our--the need for more of our students to go on to get Ph.D.s in math and it was a realization all across the sciences here, that not just math but in all of the sciences, we needed to put more emphasis on having students to go on to graduate school and to get Ph.D.s. And so we started an all out effort to do that and that was one of my priorities during the time I was chair to get more of our students into graduate school and more of them to earn Ph.D.s.$$Okay. All right, now was the department in pretty good shape when you inherited the chair, chairmanship?$$In terms of good shape you mean in terms of the number of faculty and number of students or--?$$I guess in terms of the--you had just come out of a Ph.D. program. Were they up to, you know was it up to speed the way you would like it to be when you came out?$$In terms of the curriculum?$$Right.$$I think, we had a pretty strong curriculum because see when I was taking over as chair I was taking over from Dr. Etta Faulkner who had been chair and she was top notch.$$Right, now I've heard of her before.$$Oh yes.$$Yeah.$$So she--$$Tell us something about her. Now what's her background and--$$She, I can't remember what year she came to Spelman, maybe it's '69 [1969] but she finished her Ph.D. at Emory [University] and she was, came here and became chair of the math department and Dr. Shirley McBay was also here, another black woman mathematician and Shirley became associate dean or something like that. She was you know, one step up. No, and chair of the science division. That's what Shirley was and the dean. And so the two of them had already, when I came they had already started looking at the fact that only 10 percent of our students were in math and science at Spelman and they thought that there needed to be more, that we needed to really put more effort into getting women into science. So--and some of what I'm about to say I'm thinking, I'm taking from an article that Dr. Faulkner wrote about the history of the sciences at Spelman and she talks there about how the science building was dark and dreary and there was no talk about women being in science and math on campus, nothing appeared in our literature about it. And they talked the president into starting a new era to try to change that. And they started a summer science program to try to bring, get these women who were coming into the school into the sciences at the very beginning and they did all kinds of things to try to improve the sciences and they did. And so they got the whole faculty on board so whatever we did it was not in the math department it was all across the sciences. We worked together to try to increase the number of students that were going on to, that were coming into the sciences in the first place and graduating with a BS and then by the time I came along as chair in the 80s [1980s], it was now okay, how many of these students can we get to go on to graduate school and to get Ph.D.s in math and science?

Dr. Bruce Ballard

Psychiatrist Dr. Bruce Ballard was born in Waverly Hills, Kentucky, on December 19, 1939. The youngest of four children, Ballard was the son of a physician and a secretary. Ballard attended Yale University, where he graduated magna cum laude in 1960, and went on to Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, earning an M.D. in 1964.

Ballard began his career in Chicago, Illinois, performing his internship at Michael Reese Hospital from 1964 to 1965. From there, he began his residency at the New York State Psychiatric Institute, where he remained for three years. Joining the Air Force in 1968, Ballard was sent to Hawaii's Hickam Air Force Base as the chief of mental health services, and after completing his service, he returned to New York in 1970. Taking a position at the Harlem Hospital Center, he was involved in the training of students performing their residencies. Ballard took a position with New York Hospital-Westchester in 1976 as the associate director of the Adult Outpatient Department and later as the coordinator of the residency program. In 1981, Ballard was hired by Cornell University as the associate dean for equal opportunity programs, and today he still works in that capacity as well as serving as the associate dean for student affairs. He has also maintained a private practice since 1972.

Ballard has been the director of the Travelers Summer Research Fellowship Program since 1981. The program aims to increase the numbers of underrepresented minorities enrolled in medical school programs through hands-on experience at partner universities. Ballard has also been active on a number of committees, and has chaired the Committee of Black Psychiatrists of the American Psychiatric Association (APA) and the Selection and Advisory Committee for the National Institute of Mental Health Minority Fellowship Program of the APA. He has published numerous scholarly articles, served on the editorial boards of several textbooks, and given presentations to various groups on ethnicity and psychiatry. The Air Force presented him with a Commendation Medal in 1970, and the APA presented him with the Nancy C.A. Roeske, M.D. Award for Excellence in Medical Student Education in 2001. Ballard and his wife, Eleanor, live in New York. They have two children.

Accession Number

A2003.218

Sex

Male

Interview Date

9/19/2003

Last Name

Ballard

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Occupation
Schools

Yale University

Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons

First Name

Bruce

Birth City, State, Country

Waverly Hills

HM ID

BAL01

Favorite Season

Fall

State

Kentucky

Favorite Vacation Destination

Sarasota, Florida

Favorite Quote

None

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

New York

Birth Date

12/19/1939

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

New York

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Shrimp

Short Description

Psychiatrist Dr. Bruce Ballard (1939 - ) was the associate dean of student services and equal opportunity at Cornell University.

Employment

Hickam Air Force Base, Hawaii

Department of Psychiatry, Harlem Hospital

New York Hospital-Westchester

Columbia University Center for Psychoanalytic Training and Research

Cornell University Medical College

Delete

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Dr. Bruce Ballard narrates his photographs

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Slating of Dr. Bruce Ballard's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Dr. Bruce Ballard lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Dr. Bruce Ballard describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Dr. Bruce Ballard talks about his father's family history, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Dr. Bruce Ballard talks about his father's family history, pt. 2

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Dr. Bruce Ballard describes his earliest childhood memories

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Dr. Bruce Ballard describes the sights, sounds and smells of growing up in Waverly Hills, Kentucky

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Dr. Bruce Ballard recalls his early childhood education

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Dr. Bruce Ballard explains the intellectual and social environment of his childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Dr. Bruce Ballard describes the racial segregation in Louisville, Kentucky during his childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Dr. Bruce Ballard remembers the African American community of his childhood in Louisville, Kentucky

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Dr. Bruce Ballard explains his father's efforts to combat tuberculosis

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Dr. Bruce Ballard recalls his time at Louisville Central High School in Louisville, Kentucky during the 1950s

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Dr. Bruce Ballard describes the impact of the Civil Rights Movement

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Dr. Bruce Ballard explains how he decided to attend Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Dr. Bruce Ballard describes the demographics of the class of 1960 at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Dr. Bruce Ballard describes his experiences at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Dr. Bruce Ballard recalls his trips to New York, New York as a college student

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Dr. Bruce Ballard talks about how he spent his summers during college and his graduation from Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Dr. Bruce Ballard recalls entering Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons in New York, New York in 1960

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Dr. Bruce Ballard describes the coursework that interested him at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Dr. Bruce Ballard talks about his early interest in studying psychiatry

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Dr. Bruce Ballard explains his decision to specialize in psychiatry

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Dr. Bruce Ballard talks about the origins and evolution of psychiatry

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Dr. Bruce Ballard describes his residency at New York State Psychiatric Institute

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Dr. Bruce Ballard talks about Dr. Elizabeth Davis

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Dr. Bruce Ballard talks about the New York State Psychiatric Institute and HistoryMaker Dr. Alvin Poussaint

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Dr. Bruce Ballard explains how he was stationed at Hickam Air Force Base in Hawaii in 1968

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Dr. Bruce Ballard describes the population he treated at Hickam Air Force Base in Hawaii

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Dr. Bruce Ballard recalls lessons learned while a psychiatrist at Hickam Air Force Base in Hawaii

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Dr. Bruce Ballard describes his analytic training

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Dr. Bruce Ballard talks about his tenure as chair of Harlem Hospital's psychiatric residency training program

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Dr. Bruce Ballard talks about the APA and Cornell University's New York-Presbyterian Hospital's Westchester Division

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Dr. Bruce Ballard explains how he became associate dean for minority affairs at Weill Cornell Medical College in New York, New York

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Dr. Bruce Ballard details his work as the associate dean for minority affairs at Weill Cornell Medical College, New York, New York pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Dr. Bruce Ballard details his work as the associate dean for minority affairs at Weill Cornell Medical College, New York, New York, pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Dr. Bruce Ballard explains his cross-cultural approach to psychiatry

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Dr. Bruce Ballard talks about the current focus on cultural competence in the field of medicine

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Dr. Bruce Ballard speculates about his future pursuits

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Dr. Bruce Ballard explains the need for African American psychiatric educators

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Dr. Bruce Ballard describes his concerns for the African American community

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - Dr. Bruce Ballard shares his views on integration

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Dr. Bruce Ballard talks about advances in the field of psychiatry

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Dr. Bruce Ballard explains why he would enter psychiatry again

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Dr. Bruce Ballard reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Dr. Bruce Ballard describes his parents' impression of his career

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Dr. Bruce Ballard describes the population he treated at Hickam Air Force Base in Hawaii
Dr. Bruce Ballard describes his residency at New York State Psychiatric Institute
Transcript
In a nutshell, there were these kinds of problems. First, a lot of youth problems. This is the late '60s [1960s]. This is the era of protests against the war [Vietnam War]. There were a number of young people who signed up for the [U.S.] Air Force. When you signed up for the Air Force, you signed up for four years. A number of young people did that to avoid being drafted into the [U.S.] Army, which was a two-year commitment, but could mean being shot at in a ditch in Vietnam, quite frankly (laughter). So, they signed with the Air Force. There, you were at least at the Air Force Base. And the Air Force has a different structure in terms of the--of how it works. In the Air Force, your pilots are officers. People who fly planes are officers. Your other people in the Air Force are what are called support troops. The primary mission is to keep the planes going so that this means that you're not going to be in a battlefield so much as a sergeant or whatever it is in the Air Force 'cause you're gonna be at the base involved in some aspect of keeping the whole thing going. So, some young people were savvy enough to realize this, that it was literally less dangerous for you if you were in the Air Force and got into the Air Force. However, for some young people, this meant four years. And a nineteen-year-old, nineteen to twenty-three, or twenty to twenty-four, can give many young people that this is taking some of the best years of my life (laughter). This is taking my youth, so you saw a lot of youth problems of people who are kind of sorry that they did it. Maybe it would have been better to take a chance to be drafted. Should I go to Canada, you know? I hate this war in the first place. We shouldn't be in it, so there were a lot of problems like that. A second set of emotional problems had to do with people who had been in the military and were on the verge of getting out of the military having done twenty years. And these were people who were often officers and they were now forty-five or forty-six. And if you didn't make certain promotional cuts in the military, you wouldn't get any farther. You would be just be discharged with some retirement pension perhaps. But in other words, if you were a lieutenant colonel, didn't make colonel, you were processed out at that twenty-year period. So, you couldn't stay on any longer, so this meant colonel so-and-so was going to a civilian world where you are Mr. so-and-so, and in your mid-forties. And they didn't know what was out there or whether or not they could make it in the "real world", so to speak.$$So were the--were you actually seeing people or were you doing more administration? Were you--$$No, I was seeing--I was taking care of them.$$You were, you were taking care--$$I was taking care of patients.$$Okay. So did you find that, that like on the colonel-level that they were like--I don't want to talk to you.$$Oh, no, no.$$You didn't have any of that--none of that?$$Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.$$Okay, okay.$$No, people who are emotionally hurting want to see somebody who might help them.$$That's true, that's true.$$So--$$That's true. But you hear some of these stories sometimes--$$Yeah.$$Okay. I mean you do.$You were explaining that you were doing your residency--$$Um-hm.$$--at New York State Psychiatric Institute [New York, New York]--$$Yeah, um-hm, Columbia [University College of Physicians and Surgeons, New York, New York].$$--which is essentially Columbia University.$$Yeah.$$So you were saying and that, so you said that the focus was on, you know, the--I mean, what are the prevailing theories--$$Um-hm.$$--as you come out, you know, that are sort of prevailing terms of treatment?$$Um-hm, okay. Well, a lot of programs of that time were too tight. If you went to a kind of academic program that was university-based, and particularly, if it were a program in the East, there were, there were programs at say, Columbia, Albert Einstein [College of Medicine, New York, New York], where you largely worked with very ill psychiatric patients who were in the hospital a long time. And you had a cadre of supervisors who were training you in kind of psychodynamic methods. In this instance, they were usually psychoanalysts, so that I would say my own training had a distinct sort of dynamic and analytic focus. Partly because at that time, although we had some psychopharmacologic interventions available to us, there were three or four antidepressants. That was about it. There were several kind of medications that you could use in schizophrenia. That was about it. There were limitations in terms of what we could do. And in a training program like that, you certainly learn how to use those medications in an attempt to treat certain symptoms. But you were still very focused on, there must be some other sets of dynamic issues to explain why this person is presenting with the symptoms that they have. So it was really a combination, and heavily under an analytic emphasis. And for Columbia at the time, there was kind of always a message out there that the best of you in the residency will apply to the Analytic Institute [ph.] and become the best of psychiatrists. So that there was kind of the philosophy that if you really wanted a depth to understanding of things, you had become a psychoanalyst.$$Okay.$$And at the time, there's no question. It was probably the best education that we would term depth psychology, yes.