But I got to tell you something, let me go back to something I said way in the beginning when you asked that question about characteristics from--or who influences you, your father, your mother or where did you go? Remember one of the things I said about my father [Earl Hutchinson], he was very cautious, do you remember when I said that? Well something internally, a little bell and whistle always was there, danger (laughter), be careful. It's nice to have a philosophy and it's nice to be influenced, and it's nice to have a heart, but sometimes it can be a little dangerous. So my wife [Barbara Bramwell Hutchinson] always says, "That Hutchinson thing, boy I have to tell you, you guys are so cautious" (laughter). Put the fear of God in you about not making any too, too many steps out the box. You know always playing it close to the vest. But any case, so I saw all of the events unfold in L.A. [Los Angeles, California], you know the shootouts, all the stuff that went on at UCLA [University of California, Los Angeles, Los Angeles, California] and over here on Central Avenue. I saw all of that, I witnessed it.$$Okay so the, the shootout, you, now this is a disputed--$$Between US [The Organization Us] (simultaneous)--$$--(simultaneous) it's been written about--yeah, US Organization--$$--and the Panthers [Black Panther Party].$$Yeah Bunchy Carter I think was killed.$$The week before that happened at UCLA, I was a panel with John Huggins, and even the week before that at one of the black student meetings at Cal State LA [California State College at Los Angeles; California State University, Los Angeles, Los Angeles, California]. The other guy, Bunchy Carter came, had big entourage you know that, they kind of like to do that you know, everything was theater. You know they got that from the old Nation of Islam you know that, that militaristic thing, the intimidating thing. So they would come and they would do their thing, and I remember he gave a little talk and he was a poet too, and read a couple of poems. Had just seen him the week before then I was on a panel with John, oh no, excuse me his wife, Ericka Huggins [Ericka Jenkins Huggins], and John was in the audience. And then one week later, this thing at UCLA, Bunchy Carter, John Huggins gunned down, and I said, wow. Now, that was another turning point in my life. There's a, well I just saw it the, the other day this movie, 'Righteous Kill' with Robert De Niro and Al Pacino. And there's a scene in there where Pacino, he's a serial cop killer, Pacino is killing people, taking the law, the whole Bronson [Charles Bronson] thing, you know, 'Death Wish.' So in the end he's making this confession when they catch him, and he said something that reminded me of what I'm gonna say. He said, "I started doing this because I lost my faith." When he saw his, De Niro, a role cop plant some things on somebody, planted a gun on him you know, New York PD [New York City Police Department], then get rid of this guy. And so Pacino who had been playing it close to the vest said, "I lost my faith," he'd always played it for thirty years as a straight cop. And then he saw this crooked cop, then he just went bananas, just start killing. When that happened at UCLA, I lost my faith, by that I mean this: all my youthful idealism, all of my illusions about the black struggle being so simon-pure and this and that. And was just gonna remake America and, and the oppression of us and that, I mean things I deeply believed in. When that happened, that threw me off, blacks killing blacks, radical blacks killing--those that I knew on both sides, how could this happen? Those that I believed in, went to the meetings, you know listened to them talk about black consciousness, black this, black unity, black this. Believe in that; I eat it up, believe in all of that. So now at my, you know twenty-two, twenty-three, I'm trying to, I'm having cognitive dissonance. Wait a minute, this is not the pl- you know you're used to white police gunning down bla- I mean you understand that, that's supposed to be the formula, you know? But this is different, you got radical blacks, US Organization, the triggermen killing other--how did this happen? So all of my illusions and delusions about--things all of a sudden, pardon the pun, didn't become so black and white anymore, now we got grey areas. Now for the first time I saw that blacks can victimize other blacks; wasn't always whites victimizing blacks. I began to see things aren't always what they seem in this world, so I began realizing and watching a little bit closer. And, and rethinking some things. Not that you're going to go and become Clarence Thomas (laughter) you know. But, but it, it just sent up a cautionary note to look and access and analyze a little bit differently, much more broader, than just seeing everything in just narrow, black and white, racial terms.$I had one other experience, I began to do some, branch out into radio at that point at KPFK [KPFK Radio, North Hollywood, California] in the Pacifica Network [Pacifica Radio Network]. So I was doing some weekend programming for them, and I was doing a jazz show, a jazz and a sports show, but especially the jazz show. And a lot of the top in rapid succession we had, in a three-month period, I had Barry White, I had [HistoryMaker] Isaac Hayes, I had [HistoryMaker] Herbie Hancock, almost got Miles [Miles Davis]. Being the flake that he is and you know about Miles, he, we had him slated for an interview, and of course he cancelled at the last minute. And then one fella that came through one day, I never heard of him before, (laughter) and he came in and he was on tour the first time. He got in the studio and you know I would usually back and forth you know kind of very light, just kind of you know I always kept it conversational. This is one of the rare, one of the few times when I did interviews, I never got, I got one question in. And so for the next thirty minutes, I'm sitting here listening to this guy go on and on and on, I got one question in in thirty minutes. And I'm fascinated I, who is this, what is this lunatic, what is this guy--I'm looking at my watch. Get this guy out of here. I'll give you a hint, he's going on talking about Rastafarians and, and you know Haile Selassie, what is he talking about? I thought this guy was coming in to talk about his new CD, not CD, they didn't have CDs back then, his album. You know who it was?$$It was Bob Marley.$$It's Bob Marley (laughter) and--first time I'd ever seen you know dreadlocks, I'm, I'm looking what, what is this? He didn't talk one second about music, I mean it was all Haile Selassie, Rastafar- rasta this, rasta that, rasta. I said wow, and I have to tell you, ever since then, of course you know now Bob Marley when they have the Bob Marley day and this. After that when I, and years afterwards, when it got out, it was like he touched the Holy Grail; "you were actually in the same room with Bob Marley?" When they do the huge thing here on Bob Marley day, I mean thousands come out; I get a call from several radio stations. "Ah, can you tell us about Bob Marley, what was he like?" I mean you actually touched Jesus, (laughter) you touched him, you walked with him, and it's so funny. Because I'm thinking to myself at the time, who is this clown, who is this nut, get rid of him, never know.$$So that so how, how long did you show last on Pacifica Radio?$$Actually I was in and out with Pacifica for over twenty-five years, begin in the early '70s [1970s] I had that show then I left the Free Press [Los Angeles Free Press] and actually went to work KPFK as their news and public affairs producer. Stayed there for ten years from 1972, late '72  to 1980, and so then I left there and actually that started, at that point, my other life.