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Frances Graves Carroll

Frances G. Carroll was born on May 8, 1932, in Chicago, Illinois. She attended Raymond Elementary and Forestville Elementary, and graduated from DuSable High School in Chicago before earning her B.A. degree in early childhood education from Roosevelt University. Carroll completed her Master of Education degree in special education from Chicago State University and received her PhD in education from The University of Sarasota in Sarasota, Florida.

Carroll has spent much of her adult life teaching in the Chicago education system and training future teachers and principals. From 1954 to 1999, she taught the Professional Advancement Courses for the Chicago Public Schools. Carroll has taught at the City Colleges of Chicago, Governor’s State University, Chicago State University and Roosevelt University. In the early 1970s, she worked at DePaul University with the Model Cities Program while serving as the Director of the Inter-Institutional Teacher Training Program for Early Childhood Education. In this capacity, Carroll trained instructors from eleven universities in childhood education. She has worked as an elementary school counselor and in the public school system’s mental health programs. From 1979 to 1984, Carroll served as Coordinator of the school system’s Evaluation and Diagnostic Unit. From 1984 to 1992, she was the Director of Staff Development for Special Education Teachers. In this position, Carroll trained parents to advocate for their special needs children. She was the parent coordinator of Cook County Juvenile Detention Center from 1992 to 1995, where she created a interactive parent program and lobbied successfully to change the school’s name to Nancy Jefferson Alternative School (named for a local social advocate) because the name of the school hurt students’ opportunities when they attempted to transition into gainful employment.

In 1999, Carroll became the president of the Carroll Family Foundation, a scholarship foundation for students with special needs. Carroll started the foundation with her own money and serves as the board director. That same year, she joined the SAS program at DePaul University where she mentored principals in effective instructional practices and administrative leadership. In 2000, she became the vice-president of Group 17 Education Consultants, Inc., and in 2003, Carroll was appointed to the Board of Trustees of the University of Illinois. As a newly appointed trustee, Carroll re-stimulated the debate over the use of Chief Illiniwek as the University of Illinois mascot. Due to Carroll’s patient effort, the University of Illinois board officially retired the image of Chief Illiniwek in March 2007.

Carroll married Floyd Carroll on April 22, 1956, in Chicago at Progressive Baptist Church. They have two adult children, Floyd, Jr., and Francesca, and are members of the Greater Bethesda Baptist Church.

Accession Number

A2008.019

Sex

Female

Interview Date

2/19/2008

7/10/2008

Last Name

Carroll

Maker Category
Marital Status

Widow

Middle Name

Graves

Schools

Du Sable Leadership Academy

Benjamin W. Raymond Elementary School

Forrestville Elementary School

Roosevelt University

Chicago State University

Argosy University

First Name

Frances

Birth City, State, Country

Chicago

HM ID

CAR16

Favorite Season

Summer

State

Illinois

Favorite Vacation Destination

Cancun, Mexico

Favorite Quote

To God Be The Glory.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Illinois

Interview Description
Birth Date

5/8/1932

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Chicago

Country

USA

Short Description

Education executive and education instructor Frances Graves Carroll (1932 - ) was a leader in the field of special education in Chicago, Illinois from 1954 to 1999. She also served on the Board of Trustees for the University of Illinois and as a chapter president of the Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority.

Employment

Frances E. Willard School

Andrew Canegie School

Andrew Carnegie School

Chicago Public Schools

Urban Teachers Corps

Consortium of Colleges and Universities

Kennedy-King College

Governors State University

Roosevelt University

Cook County commission on women's issues

Nancy B. Jefferson Alternative School

Favorite Color

Green, Pink

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DAStories

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610071">Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Frances Graves Carroll's interview, session 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610072">Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Frances Graves Carroll lists her favorites</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610073">Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her mother's upbringing</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610074">Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her mother's family background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610075">Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her father's upbringing</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610076">Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her father's family background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610077">Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her father's occupations</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610078">Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Frances Graves Carroll describes how her parents met</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610079">Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Frances Graves Carroll remembers her father's taste in clothes</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610080">Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her earliest childhood memories</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610081">Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Frances Graves Carroll remembers living in Alabama</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610082">Tape: 1 Story: 12 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her childhood home</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610083">Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Frances Graves Carroll remembers her classmate, Quincy Jones</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610084">Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls her friendship with Marion Lett Beach</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610085">Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls attending Forrestville Elementary School</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610086">Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls her early interest in music</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610087">Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Frances Graves Carroll describes the Progressive Baptist Church in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610088">Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Frances Graves Carroll remembers Walter Dyett</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610089">Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls her early aspirations</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610090">Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Frances Graves Carroll remembers the marching band at DuSable High School</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610091">Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Frances Graves Carroll remembers the Bronzeville neighborhood of Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610092">Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her experiences with black hair stylists in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610093">Tape: 2 Story: 11 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls the businesses in Chicago's Bronzeville neighborhood</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610094">Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her likeness to her twin sister</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610095">Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Frances Graves Carroll talks about her transition to college</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610096">Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Frances Graves Carroll talks about African American politics in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610097">Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls her teachers at DuSable High School in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610098">Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Frances Graves Carroll describes the history of Chicago's DuSable High School</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610099">Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Frances Graves Carroll remembers attending the Chicago Teachers College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610100">Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls transferring to Roosevelt College in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610101">Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls her sister's political activities at Roosevelt College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610102">Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls her cultural experiences at Roosevelt College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610103">Tape: 3 Story: 10 - Frances Graves Carroll remembers her classmates at Roosevelt College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610104">Tape: 3 Story: 11 - Frances Graves Carroll remembers her teacher certification exam</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610105">Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls the start of her teaching career</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610106">Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Frances Graves Carroll remembers the influence of Frances Horwich</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610107">Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Frances Graves Carroll describes the rules and activities in her first grade classroom</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610108">Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls earning a master's degree in special education</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610109">Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls moving to the Woodlawn neighborhood of Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610110">Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Frances Graves Carroll describes the early guidelines for special education</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610111">Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Frances Graves Carroll remembers the overcrowding in the Chicago Public Schools</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610112">Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her home in Chicago's Woodlawn neighborhood</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610113">Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls the overcrowding at the Andres Carnegie School in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610114">Tape: 4 Story: 10 - Frances Graves Carroll remembers the Education for All Handicapped Children Act of 1975</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610115">Tape: 4 Story: 11 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her approach to special education</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610116">Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Frances Graves Carroll talks about her success as a special education teacher</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610117">Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Frances Graves Carroll argues against the use of medication to control students' behavior</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610118">Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls her support for mental healthcare in the Chicago Public Schools</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610119">Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls working with the Consortium of Colleges and Universities</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610120">Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls training special education teachers</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610121">Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls serving as the diagnostic coordinator for the Chicago Board of Education</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610122">Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls earning a doctoral degree in special education</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610123">Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her doctoral dissertation</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610124">Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls serving as a special education director for the Chicago Public Schools</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610125">Tape: 5 Story: 10 - Frances Graves Carroll remembers serving on the Cook County Commission on Women's Issues</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610126">Tape: 5 Story: 11 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her work on the Youth Guidance board</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610127">Tape: 5 Story: 12 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls serving as principal of the Nancy B. Jefferson Alternative School in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610128">Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Frances Graves Carroll remembers Nancy Jefferson</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610129">Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls the renaming of the Cook County Juvenile Temporary Detention Center's school</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610130">Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Frances Graves Carroll remembers working with parents at the Cook County Juvenile Detention Center</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610131">Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls the heat wave of 1995 in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610132">Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her tenure at the Nancy B. Jefferson Alternative School in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610133">Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Frances Graves Carroll talks about the Carroll Family Foundation</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610134">Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her education consulting firm</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610135">Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls the campaign for a new mascot at the University of Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610136">Tape: 6 Story: 9 - Frances Graves Carroll explains the perceptions of the Chief Illiniwek mascot</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610137">Tape: 6 Story: 10 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls her proposal to remove the University of Illinois' racist mascot</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610138">Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Frances Graves Carroll remembers the removal of the Chief Illiniwek mascot</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610139">Tape: 7 Story: 2 - Frances Graves Carroll describes the aftermath of Chief Illiniwek's removal</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610140">Tape: 7 Story: 3 - Frances Graves Carroll talks about the history of the Native American community</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610141">Tape: 7 Story: 4 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her hopes and concerns for the African American community</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610142">Tape: 7 Story: 5 - Frances Graves Carroll reflects upon her life</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610143">Tape: 7 Story: 6 - Frances Graves Carroll reflects upon her legacy</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610144">Tape: 7 Story: 7 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her family</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610145">Tape: 7 Story: 8 - Frances Graves Carroll talks about her activities at the Greater Bethesda Missionary Baptist Church in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610146">Tape: 7 Story: 9 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her involvement in the Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610147">Tape: 7 Story: 10 - Frances Graves Carroll describes how she would like to be remembered</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610148">Tape: 8 Story: 1 - Slating of Frances Graves Carroll's interview, session 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610149">Tape: 8 Story: 2 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her civic activities with the Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610150">Tape: 8 Story: 3 - Frances Graves Carroll describes the breakfast program at the Greater Bethesda Missionary Baptist Church in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610151">Tape: 8 Story: 4 - Frances Graves Carroll describes the Youth Guidance agency</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610152">Tape: 8 Story: 5 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her professional memberships and honors</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610153">Tape: 8 Story: 6 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her leadership of the Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610154">Tape: 8 Story: 7 - Frances Graves Carroll remembers the activities at the Progressive Baptist Church in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610155">Tape: 8 Story: 8 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls her early role models, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610156">Tape: 8 Story: 9 - Frances Graves Carroll recalls her early role models, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610157">Tape: 8 Story: 10 - Frances Graves Carroll talks about the importance of volunteerism</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610158">Tape: 8 Story: 11 - Frances Graves Carroll talks about the removal of the Chief Illiniwek mascot</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610159">Tape: 9 Story: 1 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her motivations to retire Chief Illiniwek</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610160">Tape: 9 Story: 2 - Frances Graves Carroll describes her tactics for retiring Chief Illiniwek</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610161">Tape: 9 Story: 3 - Frances Graves Carroll talks about the changes in the field of special education</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610162">Tape: 9 Story: 4 - Frances Graves Carroll describes the state of special education programs</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/610163">Tape: 9 Story: 5 - Frances Graves Carroll talks about her family's influence</a>

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$5

DAStory

7$1

DATitle
Frances Graves Carroll recalls transferring to Roosevelt College in Chicago, Illinois
Frances Graves Carroll talks about her success as a special education teacher
Transcript
Mom [Grace Winstead Graves] said, "Well, why don't you try Roosevelt [Roosevelt College; Roosevelt University, Chicago, Illinois]?" At that time we were a little bit more able, and tuition was thirteen dollars a semester hour. So, they had a break. We had a winter break, and we took the letter--we never threw away anything. We took the letter down to Roosevelt, and they admitted me the same day. I took my grades, and so if we didn't get admitted we could go right on back to Teachers College [Chicago Teachers College; Chicago State University, Chicago, Illinois] (laughter) in February or whenever school started. And so Roosevelt started earlier, and so we got registered to make sure it was a real registration, and started at Roosevelt. And my life was different from that day on.$$So this about 1950?$$Nineteen fifty-two [1952].$$Two [1952]. Okay, okay.$$And life, it was a whole different world of freedom--the liberalism, the acceptance. And they had Lorenzo Turner [Lorenzo Dow Turner]. I don't know if you ever heard of Dr. Lorenzo Turner. And he brought African students into Roosevelt from Nigeria. Every year he would to Ghana or Nigeria and bring students back. And to my knowledge, that was the first university--I know we didn't have him at Chicago Teachers College. And he lived at 39th [Street] and Ellis [Avenue] in a big old house. And he would invite his classes over to meet and to discuss with the African students. And we would take them to our church [Progressive Baptist Church, Chicago, Illinois], and the music was so--after studying the African culture--studying it--you could not tell the difference between the African music and the music at the Baptist church. And so it was very, very interesting. And then my mom would invite them to dinner, and we would have African and Asian students.$$Now, can, do you remember the names of some of the students that--$$Well, Atunde Adakawa [ph.], I remember that name; Atunde I can remember. And there was a Joe Williams [ph.], but he was from Liberia. So, they spoke English, you know. Now, all of the students spoke English because they had to speak English to come here. But there was maybe five or six. Some we stayed closer friends with. Atunde was really, in fact he--when I got married he was, he was at the wedding. I stayed with him and met his wife. He's dead now. Because he went back to Africa. But there were many, at least twenty that we interacted with. And then Dr. Turner died. When Dr. Turner died, in maybe the '80s [1980s], we kind of lost that relationship. But by that time, the world was going international. We moved to 60th [Street] and Blackstone [Avenue], across the street from the International House at the University of Chicago [Chicago, Illinois]. And so then we would have African Americans, Africans, Asians, and Indians for Thanksgiving dinner and Christmas dinner. Remember, I said my mom was a good cook.$$Okay. So, when you say you moved, was that you and your sister [Grace Graves Dawson], or--$$Me and my sister and my mother.$$And your mother, okay.$$We bought our mother a house when we graduated from college at twenty-one. We bought her a house at 60th and Blackstone.$$Okay. So you maintained these--now this is interesting in this time period, and important too, that Dr. Turner was trying to, you know, bring together the--$$Right.$$--African students and the black students.$$He, he did. And, you know, of course we didn't understand the significance of it. It was just that you loved your professor. St. Clair Drake was there. And Turner, and Rice [ph.], he's still there. He may have just retired now, but he was an historian at Roosevelt. And the president of Roosevelt, Sparling [Edward Sparling], was exceptional, and he would come and talk to the students. Now, presidents do that now. But to have the president--we never saw the president at Chicago Teachers College. But Dr. Sparling would come into the cafeteria, which was on the first floor of Roosevelt and talk to us. He would come up to the lounge and ask how you're doing. And so, as a result of that kind of interest and relationship, the first society that was formed within the alumni was the Sparling society, and you had to pay a hundred dollars, which was a lot of money in '54 [1954] to belong to the Sparling society. We're charter members of the Sparling society. Our names are now on, have been all the time, in the student lounge on the wall for the Sparling society.$So--$$We've talked about several different things at the same time.$$Yes.$$Do you want to go back to special ed [special education]?$$Yeah, we--yeah (simultaneous).$$(Simultaneous) I just had one more point about special ed.$$Okay.$$Is that in--what was it--late in '69 [1969] or the '70s [1970s], I was able to--after going into special ed, naturally when you just get your master's degree in a subject and you get a chance to really teach it, it's exciting. So I guess I was very excited about what I was doing, and the challenges were to see if you could overcome them. And having been at Carnegie [Andrew Carnegie Elementary School, Chicago, Illinois] for--just when it was starting up--what I call startup school--I had many friends. So, what I would do to--if you got, if you did your work real well, the first thing then was to teach work habits. Because in the classroom, most of the kids who got identified was because they didn't do the work. So, you had a routine. Everybody had a job, but you had a routine where you had to be finished by a certain length of time. That gave me the time to get my paperwork done, pages, attendance, et cetera, and then we would move into instruction. And, but, when--if they were able--and I had big boys--if they were able to read at the same level groups--so you read--if you didn't know the words and you didn't know how to read because you had fooled around or whatever--they'd learn how to read. So, I taught the phonics method. But once they learned how to read, then they had to read at their grade level. And so then I got my friends to take them into their classes, so they got to sit in the classes with the regular level. And Carnegie went up to the sixth grade, so I would put them mostly in the fifth and sixth grade because they were big boys. And the male teachers--I had male teachers in the fifth and sixth grade, and they loved my kids because they were so well behaved and they would pay attention. So they would go to their regular grades, and then at the end of the year I got the principals to let me transfer them to their regular grades. So, that was--the parents started asking that their children be in my special ed classroom. So that was like, I guess that was a real reward for me. And the kids really loved--and I took them everywhere. We went on long trips. We went to Galena [Illinois], we went to the museum, we went on train rides, and whatever I heard of. I went skiing, and I would tell the kids about all the activities. And so, they were motivated. They got to go if they participated and did their work, and I could get the principal to let me take them everywhere. Parents would go along with them to Springfield [Illinois]. We went everywhere, so that was unheard of for special ed kids to go. And the people never knew they were special ed. I never told them they were special ed, and they would compliment them on their behavior. You know, you better not say a word, you know (laughter).