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Capt. Avis T. Bailey

Nonprofit chief executive, captain and ship pilot Avis T. Bailey was born on May 19, 1949, in Washington, D.C. to Roosevelt and Dorothy Bailey. He was raised by his mother after his parents separated when he was four years old. The youngest of eight children, Bailey was a precocious child, who learned American history through self-guided tours of Washington, D.C.’s monuments and museums. As a student at Banneker Junior High School in Washington, D.C., Bailey was selected from a citywide pool to participate in the First Scholastic Honors Program. His participation in the program continued until his graduation from Cardozo Senior High School in 1967.

Bailey was one of seven students selected from 450 applicants to compete for a military academy scholarship. Despite early dreams of becoming an astronaut, Bailey won a scholarship to the United States Merchant Marine Academy in Kings Point, New York. The Merchant Marine Academy was Bailey’s first introduction to integrated education. One of only four African Americans in a student body of 1,000, he was often the object of racist jokes and harassment. As a midshipman at the Academy, Bailey visited more than twenty-three countries and ports of call and studied three foreign languages. In 1972, Bailey earned his B.S. degree in nautical science, becoming the twentieth African American to graduate from the Merchant Marine Academy.

Upon graduation, Sun Oil Company (now SUNOCO) hired Bailey as third mate, making him the company's first African American officer. In 1979, Bailey earned his pilot’s license with the Association of Maryland Pilots and became the first African American in the nation to receive a state-issued pilot’s license. As a ship pilot, Bailey traveled thousands of miles up and down the Chesapeake Bay. He became known by colleagues as “the singing pilot,” who would belt out Johnny Mathis tunes from the helm.

In 2004, Bailey founded the Captain Avis T. Bailey Mariner’s Foundation, a non-profit organization designed to mentor inner-city youth and to educate them about maritime careers. Bailey married Tamara Allenette Durant, a former flight attendant, in 2000. He has three sons, Christopher, Jason and Jarrett Bailey, and two stepsons, Luke and Shannon Durant. Bailey retired from the Association of Maryland Pilots in 2006 after a career that spanned thirty-four years.

Captain Avis T. Bailey was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on July 28, 2007.

Accession Number

A2007.217

Sex

Male

Interview Date

7/28/2007

Last Name

Bailey

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Middle Name

T.

Occupation
Schools

Walker Jones R.H. Terrell Elementary School

Benjamin Banneker Academic High School

Cardozo Senior High School

United States Merchant Marine Academy

Search Occupation Category
First Name

Avis

Birth City, State, Country

Washington

HM ID

BAI06

Favorite Season

Spring

State

District of Columbia

Favorite Vacation Destination

Hawaii

Favorite Quote

Don't Stick Your Nose In Other People's Business.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Florida

Birth Date

5/19/1949

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Miami

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Corn

Short Description

Captain Capt. Avis T. Bailey (1949 - ) was the first African American officer in the SUNOCO fleet and the first African American to receive a state-issued pilot’s license. In 2004, he founded the Captain Avis T. Bailey Mariner’s Foundation to educate youth about maritime careers.

Employment

Sun Oil Company

Association of Maryland Pilots

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Capt. Avis T. Bailey's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey describes his father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey describes his earliest childhood memories

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey lists his siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey remembers his neighborhood in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey recalls the gangs in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey describes Walker-Jones Elementary School in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey recalls his father's departure from the household

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey describes his household

Tape: 1 Story: 12 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey recalls visiting historic landmarks in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 1 Story: 13 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey describes his early experiences as a student

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey describes segregation in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey remembers his early influences

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey describes his commitment to education

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey remembers the summer program at Georgetown University in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey describes his activities at Francis L. Cardozo Senior High School in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey remembers the Civil Rights Movement

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey remembers Principal Bennetta Bullock Washington

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey recalls his decision to attend the United States Merchant Marine Academy, pt. 1

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey recalls his decision to attend the United States Merchant Marine Academy, pt. 2

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey describes his experiences at the United States Merchant Marine Academy

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey describes his history professor at the United States Merchant Marine Academy in Kings Point, New York

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey remembers his English professor at the United States Merchant Marine Academy

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey describes his first year at the United States Merchant Marine Academy

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey talks about the U.S. Merchant Marine

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey recalls the riots of 1968 in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey remembers his return to the United States Merchant Marine Academy

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey remembers traveling abroad with the U.S. Merchant Marine

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey reflects upon his experiences abroad

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey describes the countries he visited with the U.S. Merchant Marine

Tape: 3 Story: 10 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey remembers the Vietnam War

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey recalls the initiation process at the United States Merchant Marine Academy in Kings Point, New York

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey describes his graduation from the United States Merchant Marine Academy

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey remembers protesting the Vietnam War

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey recalls working for Sun Transport Incorporated

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey remembers meeting his first wife

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey recalls his decision to become a ship pilot, pt. 1

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey recalls his decision to become a ship pilot, pt. 2

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey talks about his role models

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey remembers his experiences in Venezuela

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey describes the role of women in the U.S. Merchant Marine, pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey describes the role of women in the U.S. Merchant Marine, pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey talks about his political beliefs during the 1970s

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey recalls his experiences as a junior ship pilot

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey recalls his rapport with foreign ship captains

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey describes his community in Reisterstown, Maryland

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey recalls his return to Washington, D.C.

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey describes his experiences as a ship pilot during the 1990s

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey talks about his musical interests

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey talks about his love of music

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Captain Avis T. Bailey talks about his second wife

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey describes the Captain Avis T. Bailey Mariners Foundation

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Captain Avis T. Bailey talks about the importance of education

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey reflects upon his life

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey remembers Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey shares a message to future generations

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey describes his organizational memberships

Tape: 6 Story: 10 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey talks about his plans for the future

Tape: 6 Story: 11 - Capt. Avis T. Bailey narrates his photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

5$6

DAStory

8$1

DATitle
Capt. Avis T. Bailey describes his experiences as a ship pilot during the 1990s
Capt. Avis T. Bailey talks about his love of music
Transcript
Any highlights in that period in the early '90s [1990s]?$$No, just--the highlights one of my favorite stories is is sailing the, the motor vessel Proof of Gallon [ph.] which was a spirits carrier. It carried scotches and bourbons whatever and small ship under two hundred feet long and I went to the ship and the--and I saw there were no tugboats around. I said so I asked the captain, I said, "Captain are you gonna undock it?" He said, "No you undock it." So I looked around and said okay well the wind was blowing off the dock so I said captain, I said, "You have to pay extra for me to undock." He said, "Okay you undock." I said, "Okay." So I put out a security call and said, "We're ready to undock here," and so I asked the captain one more time I said, "You know you're gonna pay for this? You sure you don't want to undock?" He said, "No you, you undock." "Okay." I said, "Let go all lines." So he let go all the lines and the lines were coming in the wind blew us off the dock about fifty feet. I said, "Pull ahead," (laughter). I said this was the most easiest undocking I've ever done you know. Okay. So they paid for it so. Okay I started not to charge him but I said no this is what what you have to do.$$Wow.$$But then again you have other things that are much harder to have a nine hundred eighty foot ship and the captain turn to me and says, "Captain can you un- can you dock it?" When he tried, he was gonna try to dock it but the fog shut in and you know we're pretty close to the dock this time and I said we did and I turned the ship around to go along side and he and then the fog lifted just when we were about twenty feet off dock. He says, "Well I got you now," but I said, "You're still gonna have to pay me for what I did so." Yeah.$$That's exciting stuff.$$Yeah sometimes it is exciting but sometimes it's a little hair raising. Had the Hyundai New World, a brand new ship on its maiden voyage and it was a coal ship (unclear) thirty-six feet I was taking it out and I just happened to leave my handheld radio in the office. I said well they got radios on the ship. But it was a brand new ship and they didn't have time, they didn't really charge the batteries for the backup and everything like that so, no communication. The ship everything stopped, blacked out and so we were in the main channel and the tugboats had left and so I went out there trying to flag them down to come back because there was only one other ship on the anchorage. And there's five anchorage sitting in Baltimore [Maryland], one ship on an anchorage and of course we're heading towards that ship. So I dropped the anchor at short stay and you know try to hold on with anchor and it's still going, still going so I dropped the other anchor and finally we stopped about seventy-five feet off the other ship and so.$$Close call.$$Yeah, so the engineers got the steam back up or the engines running, pulled up the anchors and the tugboat pushed us back into the channel and we went down the bay [Chesapeake Bay] and I got off at the mid bay station. We had mid bay station at this time, so in Solomons Island [Solomons, Maryland] so I got off there and Captain Hope [ph.] had come on. He was Kings Point [United States Merchant Marine Academy, Kings Point, New York] graduate also. He took the ship the rest of the way down the bay without incident but then he read when that ship was going into Brazil I believe it ran aground and broke in two. Lost the cargo, lost the ship too, brand new ship. Same thing happened everything went out.$$Millions of dollars.$$That can happen (laughter).$$Unbelievable.$So you were talking about music and your love of singing. Who were some of your influences?$$Johnny Mathis (laughter). Yeah, yeah. I like, I like singers that can pull up a chair and just entertain you with their voice. Sam Cooke was one and I used to love music because when back when I was a kid actually in I guess '59 [1958], '58 [1958] I used to sell glossies there at the Howard Theatre [Washington, D.C.] with a Mr. Gaffney [ph.]. Glossies are pictures of the acts that are there and I got to see a lot of the, you know, the James Brown revues and [HistoryMaker] Smokey Robinson and The Miracles, The Coasters, The Moonglows you know. People that and also my, my brother-in-law my--Earline's [Earline Bailey] husband used to fill in for the some of the guys if they were missing a guy you know with The Moonglows or, or The Clovers, he would fill in for them.$$Did you get to do any performing outside of the Merchant Marine Academy [United States Merchant Marine Academy, Kings Point, New York]?$$No, not I mean other than you know doing karaoke and stuff and like I seen at the Hotel Del Lago [Maracaibo, Venezuela] but professionally no. I might--I guess my biggest thing was singing at the, what is it the benefit there in New York City [New York, New York] at the Madison Square Garden, we sang there. Mickey Rooney introduced us and of that so. It was, it was nice.$$When was this?$$This is back in maybe '71 [1971], '70 [1970], '71 [1971].$$And aboard the ship who listens to you when you were singing aboard the ship?$$The, the quartermaster, the captain who was up there, whoever is up there on the bridge you know. 'Cause I'd be singing on, on the ship there. I guess it stems from when I was with Sun Oil Company [Sun Oil Company, Inc.; Sunoco, Inc.] because Sun Oil we, at that time a radio was not allowed on, on the bridge, radio for music that is. And I didn't need it because I knew most of the lyrics and just sang when I felt like singing and had this one quartermaster that he, he liked to sing too. So he used to sing in a country western band. Well I wasn't that keen on country western sung on my bridge so I told him he'd have to go out on the wing of the bridge to sing. But he said that's unfair so I challenged him to a sing off and said that, "I know more country western songs than you do." And I proved it. And so.$$Well what did you sing?$$Well see the thing about it back in 1963 [sic. 1962] Ray Charles came out with an album called 'Modern Sounds in Country Western Music' [sic. 'Modern Sounds in Country and Western Music'] and I know every song on the album so it was a no brainer for me.$$Are you a tenor?$$I've sang first tenor, second tenor, baritone and bass.$$Can you give us a bar or so of Ray Charles or Johnny Mathis?$$(Laughter) Let me see Johnny Mathis, (singing) "Arianne's an April morning that come slipping through my window, she's a smell of coffee brewing on a quiet rainy Sunday and the purring of a kitten that has made my neck a pillow for its bed." How is that?$$Lovely.$$That's "Arianne," that's one of my favorite by him.$$Thank you.$$Yeah.$$So that helped you as you traveled up and down the bay [Chesapeake Bay]?$$Yeah (laughter). I mean it you know it, it keeps you awake and cause see like I say it's a long bay I mean we've had that's why we have a mid bay station now down in Solomons Island [Solomons, Maryland] so the, the pilot can get relief if he needs to because it takes anywhere like I said from eight to sixteen hours to get up the bay depending on the speed of the ship. It's one hundred fifty-one miles. It's the longest pilotage for one pilot in the U.S. so.

Capt. Samuel Saxton

Captain Samuel Farlee Saxton was born on August 5, 1929 in Asheville, North Carolina to Mary Patterson and Thomas Odell. Although his father left the family, his mother, a former teacher, worked as a domestic to raise Saxton and his four younger siblings. He attended and dropped out of Stevens High School in Asheville during ninth grade in order to work full time. In 1944, he told the World War II draft board that he was eighteen when he was actually sixteen so that he could join the U.S. Navy. Saxton trained as a steward, one of the few Navy jobs open to African Americans, but served as a gunner during intense battles, including the Battle of Leyte in the Philippines in 1944 and at Iwo Jima, Japan in 1945.

At the end of World War II, Saxton left the Navy and earned his high school diploma. In 1946, he joined the U.S. Marines, training at Montford Point, a segregated facility for African Americans at Camp LeJeune, North Carolina. Rising through the ranks to become a commissioned officer, Saxton served in the Korean and Vietnam Wars. In addition to defending U.S. bases in Korea and Vietnam, he managed military prisons in Da Nang, Vietnam and at Camp Pendleton, California. After a serious car accident in 1975, Saxton retired from the Marine Corps and went on to earn his B.S. degree in criminal justice and his M.A. degree in rehabilitative counseling from the University of Maryland.

In 1975, Saxton joined the Montgomery County Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation in Maryland as a deputy director and was later appointed as the director of the department. Renowned as an innovative corrections administrator, Saxton was recruited to be the director of corrections for Prince George’s County, Maryland in 1983. During his tenure, he created several programs to improve inmates’ living conditions and to facilitate their reintegration into society. His comprehensive drug treatment program, The Awakening, gained national attention and earned a visit from President Bill Clinton in 1994. Retiring from Prince George’s County in 2000, Saxton taught courses in criminal justice at Prince George’s Community College until 2004. Throughout his career, Saxton received numerous honors for instituting prison reforms, including the American Correctional Association's E.R. Cass Correctional Achievement Award and the 1986 Austin MacCormick Award from the Correctional Education Association.

Saxton passed away on February 14, 2018.

Captain Samuel Saxton was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on November 9, 2006.

Accession Number

A2006.136

Sex

Male

Interview Date

11/9/2006

Last Name

Saxton

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Occupation
Schools

Hill Street School

Livingstone Junior High School

Stevens Lee High School

University of Maryland

Search Occupation Category
Speakers Bureau

Yes

Speakers Bureau Availability

Depends on Schedule

First Name

Samuel

Birth City, State, Country

Asheville

HM ID

SAX01

Speakers Bureau Preferred Audience

Any

Speakers Bureau Honorarium

Yes - Negotiable

Favorite Season

Spring

Speaker Bureau Notes

Preferred Audience: ANY

State

North Carolina

Favorite Vacation Destination

Cruises

Favorite Quote

Always Faithful. Always Ready.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

District of Columbia

Birth Date

8/5/1929

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Washington

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Seafood

Death Date

2/14/2018

Short Description

Captain Capt. Samuel Saxton (1929 - 2018) was the former director of corrections for Prince George's County, Maryland and a retired captain in the U.S. Marine Corps.

Employment

United States Navy

United States Marine Corps

Montgomery County (Md.). Dept. of Correction and Rehabilitation

Prince George's County Department of Corrections

Prince George's Community College

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Capt. Samuel Saxton's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Capt. Samuel Saxton lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Capt. Samuel Saxton describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Capt. Samuel Saxton describes the origin of his family name

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Capt. Samuel Saxton describes his mother's childhood in North Carolina

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Capt. Samuel Saxton describes his father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Capt. Samuel Saxton describes his siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Capt. Samuel Saxton describes his neighborhood in Asheville, North Carolina

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Capt. Samuel Saxton recalls briefly living in Philadelphia as a child

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Capt. Samuel Saxton recalls childhood activities in Asheville, North Carolina

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Capt. Samuel Saxton describes the sights, sounds and smells of his childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Capt. Samuel Saxton describes his grade school experiences in Asheville

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Capt. Samuel Saxton recalls lying about his age to join the U.S. Navy

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Capt. Samuel Saxton describes serving in the U.S. Navy during World War II

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Capt. Samuel Saxton recalls continuing his education after his enlistment

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Capt. Samuel Saxton remembers enlisting in the U.S. Marine Corps

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Capt. Samuel Saxton talks about the integration of the U.S. Marine Corps

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Capt. Samuel Saxton remembers the integration of the U.S. Marine Corps

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Capt. Samuel Saxton recalls serving as a U.S. Marine in the Korean War

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Capt. Samuel Saxton describes the military police during the Vietnam War

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Capt. Samuel Saxton recalls his U.S. military service in the mid-1950s

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Capt. Samuel Saxton remembers his marriage to Sylvia Truslow Saxton

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Capt. Samuel Saxton describes his assignments in the Vietnam War, pt. 1

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Capt. Samuel Saxton describes his assignments in the Vietnam War, pt. 2

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Capt. Samuel Saxton recalls serving at Camp Pendleton after the Vietnam War

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Capt. Samuel Saxton recalls serving at Marine Corps Base Camp Pendleton

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Capt. Samuel Saxton recalls commanding the Motor Transport Maintenance Company in Okinawa

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Capt. Samuel Saxton talks about how he became a civilian corrections officer

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Capt. Samuel Saxton recalls becoming the director of Prince George's County Detention Center

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Capt. Samuel Saxton describes his initiatives at Prince George's County Detention Center

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Capt. Samuel Saxton describes his political opponents in Maryland

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Capt. Samuel Saxton describes his awards for his work in corrections

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Capt. Samuel Saxton talks about his techniques as a corrections officer

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Capt. Samuel Saxton talks about his retirement from correctional work

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Capt. Samuel Saxton describes the Montford Point Marine Association, Inc.

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Capt. Samuel Saxton reflects upon his life

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Capt. Samuel Saxton describes how he would like to be remembered

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$4

DAStory

6$5

DATitle
Capt. Samuel Saxton remembers enlisting in the U.S. Marine Corps
Capt. Samuel Saxton describes his initiatives at Prince George's County Detention Center
Transcript
When you came back from your first tour of duty, left Okinawa [Okinawa Island, Japan], came back to the high school [Stephens-Lee High School, Asheville, North Carolina], how was your mother [Mary Lou Patterson] doing at that point?$$Mother was very sickly at the time and I think that's one of the reasons why I went back into the [U.S.] military, is that the need was still there, and I didn't have time to go for me. I had to think of them, again, so that's what I did. I just went back in, made my allotments back out and all of that. By this time, I was in the [U.S.] Marine Corps and I was able to excel pretty quick in the corps.$$Now why did you select the Marine Corps?$$I think that I have always had that inclination to, I didn't like the [U.S.] Navy, you know, so I had been in what was called, the amphibious Navy. I was in the 3rd Amphibious Corps [III Marine Expeditionary Force] which spent a lot of time with Marines and I guess I got the idea since I've always been with them, you know, why don't I. So I ended up with the Marine Corps, within a short time I was already a squad leader.$$Where did you start that service and training? Where, what base, what camp?$$I started that in Okinawa. They, we were so short of troops that if you were already combat trained, you could switch over from the Navy to the Marine Corps, and I jumped at the opportunity because that meant no longer was I a steward, I could go over to the other, even though I was carrying the designation, I sure as hell wasn't fighting like a steward out there, you know, in Okinawa.$$The pay was a lot better?$$It wasn't the pay so much with me, it's that I got my pride back.$Didn't you eventually close this facility [Prince George's County Detention Center, Upper Marlboro, Maryland] and build a new one?$$Yes. While cleaning up one, we had to build toward the other, okay, and the way that occurred is that I had to go before public forums and convince them that they really needed to do something different. It was a hard sell. They knew my reputation, they knew where I was trying to go. Well, the big thing is, is that I learned the secret of how to deal with people who are public figures. Don't necessarily talk to them, I went to the ladies' garden clubs, and wherever they had large numbers of ladies that were associated with the decision makers, and tried to persuade them on what the needs were, and it worked because so many of the so-called politicians were finding it very difficult to stay at home without supporting where we were trying to go, and that was one of the strategies that I used. The bottom line was this, the county exec knew that this place was a political ambush for him, he wanted it changed. A lot of other folks knew that it needed to be changed and in order to convince them to accept the new generation jail, I took my worst critics, and I challenged them to go with me to California. I carried them out to California, it was six of them, and I made sure that I was sitting with the worst of the worst. Kept 'em up near the window and I talked that rascal all the way out to California. When we got out to California, we went to a new generation jail and let them walk through. When they came back, they said, "There will only be one built in Prince George's [Prince George's County, Maryland]," you know, in Montgomery County [Maryland], and they let me build that place. It was a new generation jail in every sense of the word.$$When was that completed?$$Oh, when was that?$$Eighty-seven [1987] roughly?$$Yeah, '87 [1987] roughly. It was not old wine, new bottle. It was a new process, you know. There has not been a riot in that place, there's been nobody raped, it's the way we designed the place. We designed it so it enhances management, okay. It's not only that but it's easy to clean, it's, it's as clean as a hospital, it's even today. We did a lot of things to enhance the thing for the staff themselves, and when the new guys, or new inmates come in, there are two orientations that go on in Prince George's, even today, the one that we give 'em and the one that the inmates give and the one that the inmates gives is far more sophisticated than ours because here's what it basically says, that whatever you did at Lorton [Lorton Reformatory, Lorton, Virginia], you can't do it here, that these people are in charge, they know what they're doing, it's a tight ship, and the best thing you can do is to spend time understanding your problems, and they'll help you with it. I did not try to enforce rehabilitation on anyone, I know better than that, but I do know this. I can limit your options for those things that you know are wrong, I can make it easier for you to follow the right path, and I can stay steady, and if you want to call that rehabilitation, a whole lot of folks know they're wrong and want to change, so you make it easier for 'em to change. If you don't want to change, then we'll deal with you another way. One of the things that people will tell you is don't take what I call the bad news bears and put 'em all in the, in the same bucket, but that's exactly what I did. If you put 'em all in one housing area and they are the people that prey on others, the people they've got to prey on is each other, and then this other group you can work with 'em. I did a lot of study on how to classify and handle that kind of a group and it has worked like a charm. We knocked our recidivism rate down by thirty points in two years. We not only did that, but that place has never lost a lawsuit of any consequence. I think the only one that I ever lost cost me two bucks.