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James L. Jackson

“Mr. East Point”, James Louis Jackson was born on April 18, 1926, in Griffin, Georgia. Jackson‘s parents Ola Mae Meadows and R.V. Jackson separated, and Jackson’s mother raised him in predominantly black East Point, Georgia. Jackson attended Bayard Street Elementary School and Booker T. Washington High School, before volunteering for the United States Army at age sixteen in 1942. Serving in France as a member of the 4253rd Quartermaster Truck Company, Jackson became part of the celebrated Red Ball Express. Obtaining the rank of Tech Sergeant, Jackson returned to East Point, Georgia in 1946.

In 1947, Jackson was hired as a mechanic’s helper at the United States Army Depot and would work as a mechanic or driver for the federal government until his retirement twenty-seven years later. Certified as a Lay Parish Associate of the United Methodist Church, Jackson was a member of East Point’s Mallalieu United Methodist Church for over sixty-nine years. Jackson also served as chairperson of the East Point Community Relations Commission; president of Mallalieu United Methodist Men and the Atlanta-College Park District United Methodist Men; president of the South Fulton Boosters Association of East Point; and president of the Gus Thornhill Scholarship Committee. Jackson was member of the East Point Housing Review Board; the Ethnic Minority Local Church Committee; the Department of Political and Human Rights; and the general boards of Laity, Discipleship, Church and Society.

Jackson was a recipient of the East Point Community Relations Distinguished Service Award in 1979, and both the George C. Burnett Citizen of the Year Award, and a life membership in the United Methodists Men in 1984. In 1996, the United Methodist Church’s Atlanta-College Park designated an official James L. Jackson Day. In 2002, East Point Mayor Patsy Jo Hilliard announced the opening of the James L. Jackson Pedestrian Community Foot Bridge, which spans two hundred ten feet and crosses six railroad tracks and the MARTA Line.

Jackson has had two children and five grandchildren with his wife, Gladys Phillips Jackson.

Accession Number

A2005.180

Sex

Male

Interview Date

8/2/2005 |and| 12/7/2005

Last Name

Jackson

Maker Category
Middle Name

L.

Occupation
Organizations
Schools

Booker T. Washington High School

Baird Street Elementary School

First Name

James

Birth City, State, Country

Griffin

HM ID

JAC14

Favorite Season

Summer, Fishing Season

Sponsor

Nicole Adams

State

Georgia

Favorite Vacation Destination

None

Favorite Quote

Be The Best At What You Can Be Where You Are And Give It All You Got.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Georgia

Interview Description
Birth Date

4/18/1926

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Atlanta

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Okra (Fried), Corn

Short Description

Community activist James L. Jackson (1926 - ) is a lifelong civil servant and resident of East Point, Georgia. Jackson served as chairperson of the East Point Community Relations Commission; president of Mallalieu United Methodist Men and the Atlanta-College Park District United Methodist Men; president of the South Fulton Boosters Association of East Point; and president of the Gus Thornhill Scholarship Committee.

Main Sponsor
Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of James L. Jackson's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - James L. Jackson lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - James L. Jackson describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - James L. Jackson recalls being raised by his maternal grandparents

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - James L. Jackson describes his parents' relationship

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - James L. Jackson describes his father

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - James L. Jackson describes his parents' and grandparents' personalities and who he takes after

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - James L. Jackson describes how he raised his children

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - James L. Jackson describes his earliest childhood memory

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - James L. Jackson remembers his neighborhood in East Point, Georgia

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - James L. Jackson describes the sights, sounds and smells of his childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - James L. Jackson remembers Christmas in East Point, Georgia

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - James L. Jackson describes his childhood toys

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - James L. Jackson describes the bicycle he bought as a child

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - James L. Jackson talks about Mallalieu Methodist Church

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - James L. Jackson describes his grandmother's discipline

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - James L. Jackson recalls his sheltered childhood in East Point, Georgia

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - James L. Jackson describes his schooling

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - James L. Jackson describes his classmates in East Point, Georgia

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - James L. Jackson describes Booker T. Washington High School in Atlanta, Georgia

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - James L. Jackson recalls joining the U.S. Army

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - James L. Jackson describes the Red Ball Express in WWII

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - James L. Jackson describes his work in England and France in WWII

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - James L. Jackson describes the French people he met in WWII

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - James L. Jackson describes his furlough in Switzerland as a sergeant

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - James L. Jackson recalls meeting the Tuskegee Airmen

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - James L. Jackson describes European race relations during World War II

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - James L. Jackson remembers leaving the U.S. Army

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - James L. Jackson recalls playing baseball for the East Point Bears, pt. 1

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - James L. Jackson recalls playing baseball for the East Point Bears, pt. 2

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - James L. Jackson describes his employment upon leaving the U.S. Army

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - James L. Jackson talks about his wife

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - James L. Jackson recalls he and his wife dealt with gossip

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - James L. Jackson describes his job as an Atlanta Army Depot mechanic's helper

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - James L. Jackson describes his experience of racial discrimination at the Atlanta Army Depot

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - James L. Jackson recalls working as a driver at the Atlanta Army Depot

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - James L. Jackson remembers retiring in 1974

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - James L. Jackson describes his political career

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - James L. Jackson remembers a riot in East Point, Georgia

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - James L. Jackson describes his response to criticism during his city council campaigns

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - James L. Jackson describes his leadership in his church

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - James L. Jackson lists awards he received for his community service

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Slating of James L. Jackson's interview, session two

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - James L. Jackson explains why he agreed to be interviewed by The HistoryMakers

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - James L. Jackson describes his life's travels

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - James L. Jackson gives advice to young people

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - James L. Jackson gives advice to community activists

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - James L. Jackson describes the example he tries to set for young Christians

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - James L. Jackson reflects upon his life

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - James L. Jackson describes his hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - James L. Jackson describes his concerns for the United States community

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - James L. Jackson talks about the Civil Rights Movement and its leaders

Tape: 7 Story: 3 - James L. Jackson shares his opinion on affirmative action

Tape: 7 Story: 4 - James L. Jackson reflects upon religion

Tape: 7 Story: 5 - James L. Jackson reflects upon the lessons from sports

Tape: 7 Story: 6 - James L. Jackson remembers serving on the General Board of Church & Society in Washington D.C.

Tape: 7 Story: 7 - James L. Jackson shares his values

Tape: 7 Story: 8 - James L. Jackson describes how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 7 Story: 9 - James L. Jackson shares his message to future generations

Tape: 7 Story: 10 - James L. Jackson reflects upon the importance of history

Tape: 8 Story: 1 - James L. Jackson narrates his photographs

DASession

1$2

DATape

4$6

DAStory

1$3

DATitle
James L. Jackson recalls meeting the Tuskegee Airmen
James L. Jackson describes his life's travels
Transcript
We were getting ready to talk about the 99th Pursuit Squadron, the Tuskegee Airmen. You bumped into them in--$$Yeah.$$--in France or, or--$$In, in France and Etretat [France], at a rest center where I--they had brought back prisoners of war and they were getting' them prepared to bring 'em back home. We called it a rest center. And we were--we were operating that rest center. That was our function when we come back. We came back from Germany to France and we was operating that. And we ran into quite a few of 'em, not quite a few, maybe six or seven. They were officers. And the way they explained it to us is the only reason they ever got caught was the fact that they ran out of fuel and, and, and they got picked up. But a lot of 'em never got to be prisoners, they just got picked up by the French and they, they were there at Etretat. But I remember very vividly, they had a, a mark fight one day up over the campsite with a P-38 [Lockheed P-38 Lightning] and a thunder bird--thunder? What was that, that little old small plane, P-47 [Republic P-47 Thunderbolt]. But they, they had some kind of thunder-something, but it was--$$They called it--okay, the Mustang? The, the--$$I don't know what it was.$$Okay.$$But they had--they had one and then the P-38, they were saying that they couldn't maneuver that P-38, especially them boys 'cause they had never had no experience with them. And, boy, they, they took that thing up and you talking about a marked battle. They had a whole camp of people out watching them put on a performance. I had never seen a greater air show than what was put on that day. And that day brought that plane almost to the ground and done an impossible flip with a P-38. You could hardly do a P-38--had them twin tails on it. You couldn't hardly do it and he did it. And then everybody learned to respect them. And they would have little sessions, they'd tell their stories, and every time when somebody got a chance to go listen to them, they would go listen to them. They were authentic people. They, they were--they were--they were real people and they were good at what they were doing. And, and this, this boy was flying against them. He, he all but lost his life in that--in that thing trying to get that thing to maneuver with that. And he said he'd never seen nobody fly a P-38 like that, but them boys were good. They were good. And I was reading a story where one guy said that in all the flights that they took up to bomber flights, they never lost a bomber during that time. We had a friend here that belonged to them that lived out here in the City of East Point [Georgia]. And he--his name was Glenn [L.] Head and Glenn, Glenn turned one upside-down, one of them training planes going through Tuskegee [Alabama] and went under a bridge. That kinda wiped him (laughter) out. He would do some crazy things but they could fly. I just--I, I admired them so much. They--and they held their ground. Even in--even in conversation when we would be at camp there. They knew what they were doing. I never understood why they kept them down on that end. They come up from down at the Italy end. But if they'd been up there, it would've been a joyous time up there. There's a lot of stuff up there.$In that regard, how do you feel about the way you have lived your life and what is important to you now?$$I don't know whether I would exchange any part of my life for a different life. I often thought about that. When I came home [from World War II, WWII], I went out to Clark [University; Clark Atlanta University, Atlanta, Georgia]. I--excuse me--I was gonna register for Clark, and I had three or four years of time to go. And there was something in, in there that disrupted me. I was phobic then in certain areas and, and I was invited to, to stay on campus. And I, I just left and I couldn't--I didn't think I could stand it after three years in the [U.S. military] service, being nineteen years old, and, and that's, that's just little bit too much confining. I didn't think I could stand it. But I wouldn't trade any of it. The three years that I spent in service, I wouldn't--I wouldn't--I wouldn't trade them three for no ten years of my life except maybe these last ten. These have been glorious days in, in, in love and everything else. But those, those first days, I wouldn't--I wouldn't--I wouldn't trade it and I wouldn't change anything, 'cause it shows, and that's what I like to demonstrate in my life, how you can--people say nothing from nothing leaves nothing, but you can go from nothing to something 'cause according to ingredients you put with it--you try to put natural things with it, it doesn't work, but if you put spiritual things with it, it adds up. One and one makes one, and one and three makes one, and one and four makes one, you keep going. Yeah, the godliness in you brings a different kind of happiness from the happiness I served when I was, you know, back in the war. Travel, I never would've seen the places I've seen, never would've come in contact with the people I come in contact with. Through the church [Mallalieu Methodist Church; East Point First Mallalieu United Methodist Church, East Point, Georgia]--I, I don't know whether I mentioned that or not, but it was through the church that I did my traveling within the country, it was through baseball that I did my traveling within the state, and then I came back to the church and we went all over the country, but it was the [U.S.] Army that took me over the world. Between the baseball, the Army, and the church, my life has been full and almost complete, complete in the church now, but it was--it was--it, it was something to, to live from. I had never been on a train when I was twelve years old; I had never been on a train. I rode a train first time at twelve. And I hadn't been out of the state. As far as I'd been was down in Griffin [Georgia] up to Atlanta [Georgia] from right here, and just start moving about the country. The Army put me in Fort Benning [Georgia], then down to Fort Lee, Virginia, Camp Lee [Fort Lee, Prince George County, Virginia] back down to Camp Swift, Texas [Camp Swift, Bastrop County, Texas], and then I started, out ho-boing then, you know, you go different place. We went to Massachusetts from there and to Scotland, England, France, Belgium, and Germany. I hit Czechoslovakia [Czech Republic and Slovakia] and Holland [the Netherlands] on trips just to visit, not to--not to have any fun or do anything, just to drive up and unload and come back. But I had a chance to see some things I never would've seen. I spent three weeks in Switzerland, two of 'em illegal, but (laughter) it's, it's--I wouldn't trade it. I wouldn't trade it for anything. And I saw some things that--like I said, we see charitable things here, but I saw in Switzerland things that Rockefeller had built around Lake Geneva. And I said, "You know, it's amazing if, if they could build some of them things around one of the colleges, you know, dormitories and things like that." I was always observing things and that's, that's what kinda--the attitudes. I, I observed attitudes and I tried to apply them to my Christian beliefs, and it didn't fit, and that's my, my, my object in life at this point is to try to make attitude fit situation, and that's--

Samuel DuBois Cook

Retired Dillard University president and the first African American professor at Duke University, Samuel DuBois Cook, was born on November 21, 1928, in Griffin, Georgia. Cook’s parents were Mary Beatrice Daniel Cook and the Reverend M.E. Cook, a Baptist minister who instilled a passion for education in all of his children; this upbringing had a deep impact on Cook. Cook was given his middle name in honor of former Morehouse College president Dr. Charles DuBois Hubert. Cook attended Griffin Vocational High School and graduated from there in 1944; he went on to earn an A.B. degree in history from Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia, where he met and was mentored by Dr. Benjamin Mays. Cook then attended Ohio State University in Columbus, Ohio, where he earned his M.A. degree in political science and his Ph.D. in 1954.

Cook started his professional career as a teacher after a short stint in the U.S. Army; he taught political science at Southern University in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, in 1955. Cook then moved to Atlanta University where he began teaching in 1956, and became politically active. Cook worked on black voter registration and served as youth director of the NAACP of Georgia. During his career, Cook taught at other colleges and universities including the University of Illinois, University of California – Los Angeles, and Duke University, where he became the University’s first African American professor. Cook was also the first African American to hold a regular faculty appointment at a predominantly white university in the South. In 1974, Cook was chosen as president of Dillard University; he filled this role for twenty-two years, retiring in 1997. Cook was credited with beginning the modernization of Dillard University’s infrastructure.

In 1993, Dillard University honored Cook by naming the school’s new fine arts and communication center after him. That same year, Cook was elected by Duke University’s Board of Trustee as a Trustee Emeritus. Duke University again honored Cook with the establishment of the Samuel DuBois Cook Society 1997; the society aims to celebrate and support African American students at the university through programming and scholarships. In 2006, Duke University established a postdoctoral fellowship in Cook’s name to support social scientists that study issues related to race, ethnicity, and gender. In 2015, Duke dedicated the Samuel DuBois Cook Center on Social Equity in his honor. Though retired, Cook remained a visiting scholar and lecturer at universities around the United States.

Cook passed away on May 30, 2017 at the age of 88.

Accession Number

A2005.139

Sex

Male

Interview Date

6/20/2005 |and| 12/8/2005

Last Name

Cook

Maker Category
Middle Name

DuBois

Schools

Griffin Vocational High School

The Ohio State University

Cabin Creek School

Spring Hill School

Morehouse College

First Name

Samuel

Birth City, State, Country

Griffin

HM ID

COO08

Favorite Season

Fall, Spring

State

Georgia

Favorite Vacation Destination

Cruises

Favorite Quote

Aim High, Reach For The Stars, Burn The Midnight Oil, And Give Life Your Best Shot.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Georgia

Interview Description
Birth Date

11/21/1928

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Atlanta

Country

USA

Favorite Food

None

Death Date

5/30/2017

Short Description

Political science professor and university president Samuel DuBois Cook (1928 - 2017 ) was the president of Dillard University, and the first African American professor at Duke University.

Employment

Southern University

Atlanta University

Dillard University

Duke University

Favorite Color

Black, Brown, White

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Samuel DuBois Cook's interview, session 1

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Samuel DuBois Cook lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Samuel DuBois Cook describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Samuel DuBois Cook describes his mother

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Samuel DuBois Cook describes his father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Samuel DuBois Cook describes his father's commitment to education

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Samuel DuBois Cook remembers the strict Baptist ban on dancing

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Samuel DuBois Cook remembers the strict Christianity of Griffin, Georgia

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Samuel DuBois Cook describes his immediate family

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Samuel DuBois Cook describes his earliest childhood memory

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Samuel DuBois Cook recalls an early experience with racism, pt. 1

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Samuel DuBois Cook recalls an early experience with racism, pt. 2

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Samuel DuBois Cook recalls his father's warning not to work for whites

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Samuel DuBois Cook remembers his education as a child

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Samuel DuBois Cook remembers the notable figures of Cabin Creek School in Griffin, Georgia

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Samuel DuBois Cook remembers the closure of Cabin Creek School

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Samuel DuBois Cook recalls a financial barrier at Spring Hill School in Griffin, Georgia

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Samuel DuBois Cook remembers his influential teacher, George Mosby [ph.]

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Samuel DuBois Cook remembers attending Griffin Vocational High School

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Samuel DuBois Cook recalls the students at his high school who attended college

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Samuel DuBois Cook remembers deciding to attend Morehouse College

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Samuel DuBois Cook recalls meeting Dr. Benjamin E. Mays

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Samuel DuBois Cook recounts memories of Dr. Benjamin E. Mays

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Samuel DuBois Cook recalls seeing Dr. Benjamin E. Mays at The Ohio State University

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Samuel DuBois Cook recalls being elected student body president of Atlanta's Morehouse College

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Samuel DuBois Cook describes his classmates Bob Johnson and HistoryMaker Lerone Bennett

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Samuel DuBois Cook recalls his classmate Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Samuel DuBois Cook describes his academics at Atlanta's Morehouse College

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Samuel DuBois Cook recalls his time at Columbus' The Ohio State University

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Samuel DuBois Cook remembers the Brown vs. Board of Education of Topeka decision

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Samuel DuBois Cook describes his political science dissertation

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Samuel DuBois Cook describes black academics' experience of racial discrimination in the 1950s

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Samuel DuBois Cook recalls great thinkers at Baton Rouge's Southern University, pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Samuel DuBois Cook recalls great thinkers at Baton Rouge's Southern University, pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Samuel DuBois Cook recalls his political involvement in Atlanta, Georgia in the 1950s

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Samuel DuBois Cook recalls Atlanta's civil rights activists

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Samuel DuBois Cook recalls his relationship with Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Samuel DuBois Cook describes the spontaneity of the Civil Rights Movement, pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Samuel DuBois Cook remembers the spontaneity of the Civil Rights Movement, pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Samuel DuBois Cook recalls teaching American government when the Civil Rights Act of 1964 passed

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Samuel DuBois Cook explains the necessity of legal action in the fight for civil rights

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - Samuel DuBois Cook talks about Dixiecrats in the Democratic Party

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Slating of Samuel DuBois Cook's interview, session 2

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Samuel DuBois Cook describes civil rights activism on Atlanta's college campuses

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Samuel DuBois Cook remembers notable figures of the Civil Rights Movement

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Samuel DuBois Cook explains racism's relationship to religion

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Samuel DuBois Cook describes W.E.B. Dubois' legacy

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Samuel DuBois Cook describes his academic focus

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Samuel DuBois Cook remembers becoming a professor at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Samuel DuBois Cook recalls being welcomed at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Samuel DuBois Cook reflects upon his stance on the Vietnam War

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - Samuel DuBois Cook describes the classes he taught at Duke University

Tape: 7 Story: 3 - Samuel DuBois Cook reflects on Lyndon Baines Johnson's presidency

Tape: 7 Story: 4 - Samuel DuBois Cook recalls Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination, pt. 1

Tape: 7 Story: 5 - Samuel DuBois Cook recalls Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination, pt. 2

Tape: 7 Story: 6 - Samuel DuBois Cook recalls being honored by Duke University

Tape: 7 Story: 7 - Samuel DuBois Cook remembers becoming president of New Orleans' Dillard University

Tape: 7 Story: 8 - Samuel DuBois Cook remembers emulating Dr. Benjamin E. Mays as Dillard University president, pt. 1

Tape: 8 Story: 1 - Samuel DuBois Cook remembers emulating Dr. Benjamin E. Mays as Dillard University president, pt. 2

Tape: 8 Story: 2 - Samuel DuBois Cook describes aspects of his Dillard University presidency

Tape: 8 Story: 3 - Samuel DuBois Cook describes the highlights of his Dillard University presidency

Tape: 8 Story: 4 - Samuel DuBois Cook remembers his most outstanding students

Tape: 8 Story: 5 - Samuel DuBois Cook describes his activities after retirement

Tape: 8 Story: 6 - Samuel DuBois Cook describes his hopes and concerns for the African American community today

Tape: 8 Story: 7 - Samuel DuBois Cook reflects on his life

Tape: 8 Story: 8 - Samuel DuBois Cook describes his legacy

Tape: 8 Story: 9 - Samuel DuBois Cook describes his wife and children

Tape: 9 Story: 1 - Samuel DuBois Cook describes how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 9 Story: 2 - Samuel DuBois Cook reflects on his successes and perseverance

DASession

1$2

DATape

3$7

DAStory

7$7

DATitle
Samuel DuBois Cook recalls meeting Dr. Benjamin E. Mays
Samuel DuBois Cook remembers becoming president of New Orleans' Dillard University
Transcript
So (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) And after having Dr. [Benjamin] Mays, you know, I was going to Morehouse [College, Atlanta, Georgia].$$Describe meeting Dr. Mays. How did you meet him and what were the circumstances?$$Now, that I can answer. On the tobacco farm. And it would have a Morehouse faculty and so forth there as supervisors and they would come up. Every summer, Dr. [B.R.] Brazeal who at that time was dean, whose daughter [Aurelia E. Brazeal] is now an ambassador to Ethiopia and so forth. (Unclear) B.R. Brazeal, distinguished economist who got a Ph.D. from Columbia University [New York, New York]. He would always come up in the summer and make a tour of all the tobacco farms that I mentioned and some that I didn't mention to see if everything was all right, and you know he was the kind of diplomat in residence temporarily. Dr. Mays would also come up to visit, so he came up to--I was at Hartman Brothers [sic. Hartman Tobacco Company] in Hazardville, Connecticut and Dr. Mays came up to visit the--his students and so forth and watch, and Dr. Mays was a great competitor, he jumped out there and was picking tobacco and so forth, but to Dr. Mays--I said and he spoke to us and I remember to this day the kind of suit and he became, not only my mentor, and when I came back to Atlanta University [Clark Atlanta University, Atlanta, Georgia] to teach, but a good friend. I, I came, I was very close to him. In fact, I guess the biggest honor in my life and the most difficult task I've ever been assigned was he asked me to deliver the eulogy when he died and so forth. And when he wrote his book, 'Born to Rebel: [An Autobiography,' Benjamin E. Mays] he asked me to write the introduction and so forth. So he became just my idol, and that's why I said I think about him you know quite often. And, but I remember the suit Dr. Mays had on when, when I met him and he was going down into tobacco farm with that fine suit and so forth. But that's how I met Dr. Mays on the tobacco farm, and there's a famous pediatrician here, a Morehouse grad, Dr. Otis W. Smith. You might have interviewed him along with Dr. Clinton W. Warner [sic. HistoryMaker Clinton Warner]. And one summer, Dr. Smith and I were asked to stay on the tobacco farm two extra weeks--after all the other guys had gone, some two hundred or more had left, and we stayed there and took care of the farm, closed everything down. We were just glad for the opportunity, stay there and made some extra money and so forth. Now, he's a wealthy physician, millionaire, and he retired and, and so forth. But that's story amazing and about how I met Dr. Mays (unclear).$$Okay.$$And we became very (unclear) very good friends and when I came to Atlanta University to teach in 1956, he was in Hughes Hall, his office was down that way, mine was over here and Dr. Clements [Dr. Rufus E. Clement] was over there so, and we developed this, you know, and I saw him all the time.$Well, getting back to--now in 1974 now what happened, is this when you went to Dillard [University, New Orleans, Louisiana]?$$Yeah, 1974 is when I made the most difficult decision in my life to leave Duke [University, Durham, North Carolina] because I had planned to retire there. We had a wonderful home and we had wonderful friends and all of that, but I had to--and when Duke, not Duke, when Dillard inquired about my interests, I said, "No." I wasn't interested. They called me back in two or three months and I said, "I'm not interested. I'm committed to teaching," which is true. You know I always felt that teaching is so much more divine, and Morris R. Cohen said, than administration. I wasn't interested in being anyone's administrator (unclear). So what I didn't know was that my saying no to them accentuated their interest in, in me. They said we want someone who is not seeking the position and doesn't want it and so forth. So that is when on for some eight months and so forth before I considered even talking to them about it, and then seeing the thing and all that. Then finally talked to me about it at Duke and I was impressed, but then I went on that campus, beautiful campus and the you know the sadness now of [Hurricane] Katrina and how it destroyed, devastated the campus and I'm told, I haven't seen it. But one morning, you know they had a great architecture and beautiful greening campus. I went on that campus--and a beautiful day really--and I got a flashback of Dr. [Benjamin] Mays, Benjamin Elijah Mays, my great mentor at Morehouse [College, Atlanta, Georgia], I saw him on that campus at Morehouse, dashing from his office, from his home to his office it hurt, and I said to me, "You know, I said if I can do one-tenth for the students at Dillard that Dr. Mays did for us at Morehouse then I know that my living will not be in vain," and that changed my mind on it. When I got back to Atlanta [Georgia], I told Dr. Mays, I said, "Dr. Mays, you tricked me." He said, "What happened? You talking differently now than you talked back then." I said, "You tricked me," I said, "That flashback." And it's true. When I saw that flashback of Dr. Mays walking on the Morehouse campus, that's when I said, "Yes, sir," you know, "if you elect me president, I'll accept."