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Ras Ammar Nsoroma

An artist known for his murals, Ras Ammar Nsoroma was born Kevin Wayne Tate on June 20, 1967 in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. When he was only a teenager, Nsoroma became aware of the work of Reynaldo Hernandez, an inner-city mural artist, which inspired him. Nsoroma graduated from the Milwaukee High School of the Arts in 1985 and attended the Milwaukee Institute of Art and Design. Nsoroma completing his first mural as a senior in high school.

In the late 1980s, Nsoroma moved to Chicago and studied at Chicago’s School of the Art Institute of Chicago. He returned to Wisconsin and began working as an artist, designing three-dimensional murals on the Fond du Lac Avenue overpass for the north and south wing walls and bridge abutments. In 2000, two of Nsoroma’s murals were nominated for inclusion in the book, Walls of Heritage, Walls of Pride: African American Murals, a collection of 200 murals spanning three decades of African American mural art. In 2004, Nsoroma designed a mural to celebrate the radio station 1290 WMCS-AM’s 25th anniversary of African American community programming; entitled The Tradition Continues. Nsoroma utilized photographs and created a compilation of twenty-five portraits of men and women who participated in the growth of the station.

Nsoroma has painted more than forty murals, including pieces in Chicago, Los Angeles and Washington, D.C., as well as his hometown of Milwaukee.

Accession Number

A2007.334

Sex

Male

Interview Date

11/29/2007 |and| 12/1/2007

Last Name

Nsoroma

Maker Category
Middle Name

Ammar

Occupation
Schools

Milwaukee High School of the Arts

Hawley Road Elementary

Bay View High

31st Street School

Phillis Wheatley Elementary School

Milwaukee Institute of Art and Design

School of the Art Institute of Chicago

Search Occupation Category
First Name

Ras

Birth City, State, Country

Milwaukee

HM ID

NSO01

Favorite Season

Fall

State

Wisconsin

Favorite Vacation Destination

None

Favorite Quote

Know Thyself.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Wisconsin

Birth Date

6/20/1967

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Milwaukee

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Black Bean Soup

Short Description

Muralist Ras Ammar Nsoroma (1967 - ) painted more than forty murals, including pieces in Chicago, Los Angeles, Washington D.C. and Milwaukee. Two of Nsoroma’s murals were nominated for inclusion in the book, Walls of Heritage, Walls of Pride: African American Murals.

Employment

School

Pick 'n Save Warehouse Foods

Self Employed

Favorite Color

Indigo

Timing Pairs
0,0:560,4:1120,19:3702,33:4850,44:5178,49:5670,56:22450,291:40084,560:42480,581:42724,586:45560,620:46385,632:48930,651:56030,748:56836,766:57394,782:60866,858:61114,863:66512,993:72012,1038:74607,1049:76169,1079:80855,1185:81636,1201:81991,1207:82275,1212:82843,1228:83411,1241:86890,1337:88310,1357:89091,1369:91718,1443:92002,1448:92286,1453:99663,1512:99955,1517:100539,1531:104262,1600:111732,1685:119547,1777:119831,1782:121038,1806:121393,1812:121819,1821:125918,1877:126242,1882:126971,1893:142780,2046$0,0:4682,51:13270,144:17342,167:17998,177:21524,268:24558,360:33140,518:34375,543:35990,578:36370,583:41975,740:47446,770:48274,780:52261,866:54378,880:54816,888:55911,922:63520,1018:72721,1129:73106,1135:73568,1142:77526,1171:77986,1178:87245,1303:87625,1308:92800,1370:106283,1572:107720,1577:111370,1649:111735,1655:112319,1665:114363,1716:118305,1799:119619,1842:126420,1954:133329,2030:137240,2064:137676,2069:138548,2090:148576,2256:160660,2407
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Ras Ammar Nsoroma's interview, session 1

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his mother's family background, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his mother's family background, pt. 2

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his father's family background, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his aunt's practice of Islam

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma remembers his conversion to Islam

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his father's family background, pt. 2

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his father's reasons for leaving Mississippi

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his parents' marriage and separation

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his parents' personalities and his likeness to his mother

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his religious upbringing

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his earliest childhood memories

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes the sights, sounds and smells of his childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma remembers the 20th Street School in Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma recalls moving frequently in Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma remembers his early drawings

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma recalls his art classes at the Milwaukee Art Museum in Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma remembers drawing the King Fearless Comics series

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes the Hawley Road School in Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his early experiences of racial discrimination

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma remembers the blaxploitation films of his childhood

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma remembers his mentors and influences

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his artwork during high school

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma remembers his first public murals

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes Bay View High School in Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes the creation of the Milwaukee High School of the Arts

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma recalls his disciplinary problems in elementary school

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his art training during high school

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma recalls his scholarship to the Milwaukee Institute of Art and Design

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his art education and internship in Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma remembers his political influences

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes the Pan-African Revolutionary Socialist Party

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma remembers the Black Arts Movement

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma remembers travelling with Emerson Matabele

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his decision to pursue a career in art

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his work with the Chicago Public Art Group

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Slating of Ras Ammar Nsoroma's interview, session 2

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma remembers painting 'The Circle Journey'

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his mural, 'Patchwork'

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma reflects upon his artistic influences

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma recalls studying the Yoruba religion

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his artistic philosophy

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his work with the Wisconsin Black Historical Society

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his work with the Walker's Point Center for the Arts

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma reflects upon his depictions of religious figures

Tape: 7 Story: 3 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his murals for the Ausar Auset Society

Tape: 7 Story: 4 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma talks about the cost and time frames of his murals

Tape: 7 Story: 5 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma talks about the murals in Milwaukee's America's Black Holocaust Museum

Tape: 7 Story: 6 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes the Marquette Interchange mural, pt. 1

Tape: 7 Story: 7 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma talks about the Marquette Interchange mural, pt. 2

Tape: 8 Story: 1 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma talks about his mural, 'The Resurrection of Watts'

Tape: 8 Story: 2 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma remembers his exhibition, 'JuJu'

Tape: 8 Story: 3 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his plans for the future

Tape: 8 Story: 4 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma talks about his organization involvement

Tape: 8 Story: 5 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 8 Story: 6 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma reflects upon his life

Tape: 8 Story: 7 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 8 Story: 8 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma talks about his wife and children

Tape: 8 Story: 9 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 8 Story: 10 - Ras Ammar Nsoroma narrates his photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

4$5

DAStory

4$6

DATitle
Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes the creation of the Milwaukee High School of the Arts
Ras Ammar Nsoroma describes his decision to pursue a career in art
Transcript
But what they did, they had this program in high school where you would go to school half a day and then the other half you could go to the art museum [Milwaukee Art Museum, Milwaukee, Wisconsin] and it was called satellite program and you go to the art museum the other half and do courses there. So I got--I became part of that and then you had to have good attendance and you know good grades and stuff so that got me back in, in the swing of it and stuff and so but Bay View [Bay View High School, Milwaukee, Wisconsin] was the artist specialty school and then my last year in high school I guess they wanted a more centralized location and this, this was like right after that movie 'Fame,' I think and I think it might influence a lot. They, they put a lot of money, they had investors and they put a lot of money into the schools it was West Division High School [Milwaukee High School of the Arts, Milwaukee, Wisconsin] and it was, it was more--it was more in the neighborhood where I grew up and they made that the art specialty school and before it was a law specialty school and they switched specialties with Bay View, so Bay View became the law specialty school, like law enforcement and stuff like that and [U.S.] military and ROTC [Reserve Officers' Training Corps] and stuff like that.$$Okay so they turned West Division which is was that a traditional black high school?$$Yeah it was traditional.$$And they turned it into the arts high school for the whole city?$$Yep and then they named it the High School of the Arts. So, so they came, my junior year they came over and did like a program and they recruited a lot of us from Bay View to try to come over to the High School of the Arts. So that's what I did, I went over there. I say that was my last year of high school and that was the first year the High School of the Arts.$$Now did you get any honors in high school for your art or? How, how, how was your art viewed in high school, how did they?$$The teachers took like interest in me, the art teachers they liked my work.$From there I just decided to concentrate on my art career and I was growing locs [dreadlocks] at the time. And I thought you know my locs would help me, help me in my drive and determination to continue this career because you know I didn't think anybody would try to hire me with locs. Locs weren't very popular then like the early '90s [1990s]. Maybe in New York [New York] or something but like as far as--$$So, it would kind of keep you in the arts because nobody would take you otherwise.$$(Laughter) And I found that out when I moved to Chicago [Illinois]. I tried to get jobs like through the school and stuff and everything would be fine over the phone when I would call and stuff and they say come on down and stuff and once I got down there, you know it was a different story. They saw my hair and stuff and you know I had, I had a lot of money saved. You know I didn't have to find a job right away 'cause I, I actually I was saving money. It was gonna be my back to Africa fund or something you know but I decided to go to school I used that money to you know to get me a place and live for a while 'til I you know I start making money so, but eventually you know I never got a job you know working at a Gap [Gap, Inc.] or, or vitamin store or wherever I tried you know. So I just, I had to keep working and doing art you know. That's how I made my money, I just kept doing art. So eventually I just--I just stopped. I was paying out of pocket at the School of the Art Institute [School of the Art Institute of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois] so you know I had to take time off to catch up paying and stuff and never went back.$$So you were never offered a scholarship or anything? Or did you try--$$I had a scholarship, it was a partial scholarship and then the rest I, I was paying out of pocket. I was paying the difference out of pocket because I didn't wanna take out any loans and stuff. I'm real cheap that way you know. I like you know I like to take care of myself. I don't like to be in debt and stuff so so the remainder I was paying like maybe four thousand [dollars] a semester out of pocket or so you know.$$That's a lot of money.$$Yeah. So then I still I think I might still owe, I'm not gonna say it on tape. But you know so I took time off and then I never went back and then I just kept doing my art you know as paying--I was doing my art anyway to pay for it, I just kept working.

Jon Onye Lockard

Painter, educator, and historian, Jon Onye Lockard, was born January 25, 1932, on Detroit’s east side; his mother, Lillian Jones, came from Port Arthur, Mississippi, and his father, Cecil E. Lockard, from Marianna, Arkansas. Lockard grew up around Franklin’s Settlement House with Milt Jackson, Kenny Burrell, and Oscar Graves; he attended Norville and Smith Elementary Schools and Barbour Intermediate School. At age twelve, Lockard worked for the Overton Sign Company; he later won a job with Walker and Company, but was later rejected because of his race. Lockard graduated from Eastern High School in 1948; he then took classes at Meinzingers School of Art and worked for the Palmer Paint Company. Lockard graduated from Wayne State University in 1955 and pursued further study at the University of Toronto.

Working as a traveling portraitist in the late 1950s and early 1960s, Lockard painted portraits at the Seattle World’s Fair in 1962. In Houston, Lockard met Texas Southern University’s John Biggers. In 1967, Lockard attended Jeff Donaldson’s CONFABA at Northwestern University and witnessed the founding of the AFRICOBRA group. During this period, Lockard added the name, “Onye” which is from “Onye Eje” or Ibo language for “artistic traveler.” In 1969, Lockard attended the National Conference of Artists (NCA) meeting in Chicago. As an illustrator, Lockard contributed to independent black publishing efforts. Lockard’s drawing of angry youth, entitled What are we going to tell them? (1967) appeared on the cover of I.P.E.’s Black Books Bulletin. Known for his rich use of color and powerful use of form, Lockard’s murals find a natural home on college campuses; his piece, Continuum, spans Wayne State University’s Manoogian Center, and his other murals are located at Central State University, the University of Michigan, and Detroit’s Dr. Charles Wright Museum of African American History. Lockard’s work has been exhibited nationally and internationally for several decades. Robin Dunitz featured Lockard’s mural work in Walls of Pride.

Lockard taught life drawing, portrait painting, and the art and culture of African Americans for over forty years, gaining popularity as an instructor at the University of Michigan and at Washtenaw Community College. Lockard also served as president of the NCA, and associate director of The Society for the Study of African Culture and Aesthetics. Lockard co-produced and hosted Barden Cable’s Sankofa television program. Lockard and his wife, Leslie, raised three children.

Lockard passed away on March 25, 2015.

Accession Number

A2005.021

Sex

Male

Interview Date

1/19/2005

Last Name

Lockard

Maker Category
Middle Name

Onye

Schools

Eastern High School

Norville Elementary School

Barbour Magnet Middle School

Martin Luther King Jr. Sr High School

Smith Elementary School

Wayne State University

Meinzinger School of Art

Search Occupation Category
First Name

Jon

Birth City, State, Country

Detroit

HM ID

LOC03

Favorite Season

Fall, Spring, Summer

State

Michigan

Favorite Vacation Destination

None

Favorite Quote

None

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Michigan

Birth Date

1/25/1932

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Detroit

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Fried Chicken, Seafood

Death Date

3/25/2015

Short Description

Muralist, art professor, and painter Jon Onye Lockard (1932 - 2015 ) taught life drawing, portrait painting, and the art and culture of African Americans for over forty years at the University of Michigan and at Washtenaw Community College. Lockard's creative works include illustrations and murals.

Employment

Palmers Paint Products

Washtenaw Community College

University of Michigan

Favorite Color

None

Timing Pairs
0,0:4450,25:5129,34:6002,45:6487,51:7069,61:22005,262:26180,295:27776,326:28784,344:29120,349:29456,354:32740,360:34005,379:36650,480:38260,524:57230,680:77910,887:82540,974:91320,1037:102070,1186:108010,1258:108550,1282:114665,1318:136327,1541:143024,1665:154073,1902:166182,2004:169692,2118:171018,2196:176410,2231$0,0:11039,168:17345,249:17645,254:18020,260:19295,287:19820,295:22445,352:22970,360:34145,476:34810,490:58441,801:64655,847:65390,856:65810,861:71900,941:81980,1036:88688,1100:90020,1125:90464,1137:91204,1158:91722,1166:92240,1174:104451,1360:115280,1493:115640,1498:116000,1503:116450,1509:117710,1530:118340,1539:120680,1576:121130,1582:122750,1599:137285,1744:138034,1752:143501,1812:143825,1817:144230,1823:148842,1828:163532,1978:163946,1985:164843,2006:171260,2085:178634,2144:181362,2184:181714,2189:182242,2197:192590,2334:192930,2403:208274,2535:215646,2792:220250,2822
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Jon Onye Lockard's Interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Jon Onye Lockard lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Jon Onye Lockard describes his maternal family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Jon Onye Lockard describes his mother's siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Jon Onye Lockard describes his maternal family's educational backgrounds and businesses

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Jon Onye Lockard talks about his mother's relocation to Detroit, Michigan and her education

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Jon Onye Lockard describes father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Jon Onye Lockard speculates about why his paternal family left Marianna, Arkansas

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Jon Onye Lockard describes his maternal uncle, Robert Jones

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Jon Onye Lockard describes his childhood household in Detroit, Michigan

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Jon Onye Lockard describes the neighborhood where he grew up in Detroit, Michigan

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Jon Onye Lockard describes the sights, sounds, and smells of his childhood in Detroit, Michigan pt. 1

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Jon Onye Lockard describes the sights, sounds, and smells of his childhood in Detroit, Michigan pt. 2

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Jon Onye Lockard talks about his childhood friends and interests in Detroit, Michigan

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Jon Onye Lockard lists the elementary schools and high schools he attended in Detroit, Michigan

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Jon Onye Lockard recalls his first job at Ovelton Sign Company in Detroit, Michigan

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Jon Onye Lockard describes African American sign painters' working conditions before the desegregation

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Jon Onye Lockard shares what he learned from his first job at Ovelton Sign Company in Detroit, Michigan

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Jon Onye Lockard talks about winning an advertisement contest in high school

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Jon Onye Lockard remembers his interview for an internship with Walker & Company in Detroit, Michigan

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Jon Onye Lockard talks about his involvement in sports and clubs at Eastern High School in Detroit, Michigan

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Jon Onye Lockard talks about attending a prom at another high school due to the unofficial segregation at his own

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Jon Onye Lockard recalls his high school guidance counselor discouraging him from applying to college

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Jon Onye Lockard talks about attending Wayne University and Meinzinger Foundation Art School in Detroit, Michigan

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Jon Onye Lockard talks about working at Palmer Paint Company in Detroit, Michigan

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Jon Onye Lockard talks about travelling at the beginning of his art career

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Jon Onye Lockard remembers muralist John T. Biggers

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Jon Onye Lockard remembers HistoryMaker Bing Davis and the National Conference of Artists

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Jon Onye Lockard recalls joining the National Conference of Artists at its 1969 conference in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Jon Onye Lockard talks about the National Conference of Artists' evolution from a social organization to a more politically-oriented one

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Jon Onye Lockard recalls his trip with HistoryMaker Margaret Burroughs for the National Conference of Artists in Suriname

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Jon Onye Lockard talks about travelling to Suriname with the National Conference of Artists

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Jon Onye Lockard talks about his first print artwork, Black Messiah

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Jon Onye Lockard talks about the Detroit, Michigan riots inspiring his creation of 'What are We Going to Tell Them'

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Jon Onye Lockard explains the inspiration behind his painting, 'Ahm Gonna Raise This One Myself'

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Jon Onye Lockard talks about his teaching in higher education

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Jon Onye Lockard explains how perceptions of colors vary across cultures and how that impacts an African American aesthetic

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Jon Onye Lockard remembers his experience at FESTAC in Lagos, Nigeria

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Jon Onye Lockard talks about his favorite murals that he created

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Jon Onye Lockard talks about his famous recreation of Aunt Jemima in 'No More'

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Jon Onye Lockard describes his hopes for the African American community

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Jon Onye Lockard reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Jon Onye Lockard reflects upon his life

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Jon Onye Lockard talks about his family

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Jon Onye Lockard describes how he would like to be remembered

DASession

1$1

DATape

4$5

DAStory

6$3

DATitle
Jon Onye Lockard talks about the Detroit, Michigan riots inspiring his creation of 'What are We Going to Tell Them'
Jon Onye Lockard talks about his famous recreation of Aunt Jemima in 'No More'
Transcript
The boys, that was 1967, that was during the first couple of days of the Detroit [Michigan] riots. My studio was in Ann Arbor [Michigan] at the time and actually we were on the radio--on television (unclear) and I jumped in my car and I get back home 'cause my family was in Detroit. Well the second day I went down on 12th Street actually I went down there because I had done some murals in a couple of nightclubs down there and I wanted to see if they survived, they hadn't. Rubble everywhere, kids everywhere so I saw this group of kids but I didn't pay particular attention to them because I had my camera, I'm taking pictures. I looked around and those kids are standing almost within three feet of me looking at me. So I started talking to them and they asked me who are you taking pictures of and I told them, why are you taking pictures, I told them. They said do you live here and I said yeah and we had a conversion, we ended up having about a thirty minute conversation standing there. It's struck me very deeply. The name of that particular picture you're talking about is 'What Are You Going to Tell Them' because it just impacted my mind what are we going to tell these kids. What do we tell them, how do we tell them, how do we guide them, where do we guide them to and that motivated a lot of work that I have done. In fact I did another one of a young man--a teenager and I'm sure you saw that in prints also, he's got no shirt on and it's called '[A] Dream Deferred' and I use Langston Hughes' poem on it. "What happens to a dream deferred?" These young people--(simultaneous) (unclear).$$(Simultaneous) It's interesting 'cause I was thinking not to interrupt you or anything but 'What Are We Going to Tell Them' [sic.] is the art version of 'Dream Deferred.'$$No I've got 'A Dream Deferred.'$$I know you've got one but I think when people see 'What Are We Going to Tell Them' that's--it's the intensity of their countenance as they look at you from that canvas, I mean it really makes you, and it does (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) They're looking right at you.$$--yeah, it raises a question, what are you going to tell them. And if you don't have anything to tell them, what is going to happen.$Now I know that Murry DePillars has a famous Aunt Jemima and you've got a famous Aunt Jemima? How did this Aunt Jemima thing start?$$That's a social documentary. You know, Uncle Ben's Rice and these things were all out in the public and we had to take issue with it and these were the popular things that you could really take 'cause everybody had a feeling about it, everybody had seen it and everybody had accepted it and so we could take issue with those things. That's really how it happened and turned into far more that I ever dreamed it would turn into.$$Now what does your Aunt Jemima doing (simultaneous) (unclear).$$(Simultaneous) My Aunt Jemima has a big frown on her face, her head rag--bandana is red, black and green, her fist is coming through the box where you open the box it says open at your own risk. It's titled 'No More' 'cause I felt that degradation of an African American woman and particularly for all that she represented and how it had been used, how it had been used over a long period of time. It had nothing to do with Aunt Jemima 'cause Aunt Jemima initially was first made public--first came to the public at the [1893] Chicago World's Fair [World's Columbian Exposition, Chicago, Illinois] in the latter part of the nineteenth century.$$Eighteen ninety-three [1893].$$Right she was a very dignified looking woman and she introduced that product--she was hired to introduce that product but certainly not as a slave, certainly not as a mammy figure. All that came later after she had died. That all came during that terrible era of the early part of the 20th century when all that lynching was going on. That's when that became very popular. I also had an opportunity to do some work way back then for Colonel Sanders. I met him and I heard him talk, I listened to him talk about that recipe and it reminded me instantly of Aunt Jemima. All of that was in my head when I did that picture. How this slave who cooked this chicken like nobody else could cook that chicken and on her deathbed, she whisper the recipe to Colonel Harland Sanders which was a pinch of dis, d-i-s, a dash of dat, d-a-t and this image used to make me seethe. How this kind of thing could just manifest itself amongst our people. So that was my way of taking issue with it. I can't get on the street corners and fuss about it, I can't get on the soap box but I can paint a picture about it and I did. Murry painted his actually Murry painted his about two months before I painted mine.$$These are transformative pictures you have (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) Yes they are, 'cause [HistoryMaker] Jeff [Donaldson] did one also. All of them are in Michael [D.] Harris's book 'Colored Pictures[: Race and Visual Representation'] which is beautiful that you could show that this is a movement thing.