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Lessly "Count" Fisher

Band leader, nightclub owner, and police chief Lessly “Count” Fisher was born on August 19, 1923 in Canton, Mississippi to Ruby Mosby Fisher and future steelworker Seaser Fisher. Fisher was given the nickname of “Count” by Count Basie. He grew up in the New Edition section of East Chicago, Indiana and attended Calumet Elementary School, Garfield Elementary School, and Columbus School, Fisher graduated from Washington High School in 1941. An accident in the steel mill inspired him to join his cousin, Wallace Hayes playing drums for the Nightsteppers. Fisher, along with childhood friend Jack McDuff, learned to read music from Jesse Evans while working as driver and bodyguard for entertainment businessman, Jake Brennan.

Touring the Midwest, Fisher’s band also included Schoolboy Porter, Johnny Mott, Bill Lane and Aretta Lamar. In 1951, he met and toured several cities with singer Eve Rene. Later reunited with Rene, they played Indianapolis’ Joy Lounge and the Hubbub. Fisher married Eve Rene and established the Carousel Club in the late 1950s. Over the years, they featured The Hampton Family, Rodney Dangerfield, June Christie, Leroy Vinegar, Freddie Hubbard, George Kirby, Redd Foxx, Moms Mabley, Jimmy McGriff, Jack McDuff, John Coltrane and James Brown. The Fishers also participated in muscular dystrophy telethons with Lorne Greene. From 1963 to 1965, the couple operated the Chateau de Count et Eve near the Indiana State Capitol. There, they showcased Roy Hamilton, Lula Reed and Motown acts along with many other names.

In 1966, Fisher and Eve Rene moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan and performed at the London House as the house band. Eventually, Fisher moved away from show business and took a job as Sheriff’s Deputy for Kent County, Michigan. He was also Idlewild, Michigan’s first chief of police. Fisher and wife, Eve, a retired civil servant, lived in Grand Rapids. Their son, Rodney, is a musician who once portrayed Sir Nose D’Voidoffunk with George Clinton’s Parliament-Funkadelic.

Lessly "Count" Fisher was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on March 10, 2007.

Fisher passed away on November 22, 2015.

Accession Number

A2007.082

Sex

Male

Interview Date

3/10/2007

Last Name

Fisher

Marital Status

Married

Middle Name

Count

Schools

Washington High School

Calumet Elementary School

Garfield Elementary School

Columbus School

First Name

Lessley

Birth City, State, Country

Canton

HM ID

FIS01

Favorite Season

Spring

State

Mississippi

Favorite Vacation Destination

Hammond, Indiana, Austin, Texas

Favorite Quote

Let There Be Light, And There Was Light.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Michigan

Birth Date

8/19/1923

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Grand Rapids

Country

United States

Favorite Food

None

Death Date

11/22/2015

Short Description

Nightclub owner, police chief, and bandleader Lessly "Count" Fisher (1923 - 2015 ) owned The Carousel Club nightclub where such acts as Redd Foxx, Rodney Dangerfield, and John Coltrane performed.

Employment

Carousel Club

Chateau de Conte et Eve

Kent County (Mich.)

Idlewild Police Department

Favorite Color

None

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Lessly "Count" Fisher's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Lessly "Count" Fisher lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Lessly "Count" Fisher describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Lessly "Count" Fisher describes the racial discrimination in Canton, Mississippi

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Lessly "Count" Fisher describes his father's escape from Mississippi

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Lessly "Count" Fisher describes his father's move to Calumet, Indiana

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Lessly "Count" Fisher describes his parents' education

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Lessly "Count" Fisher describes his early personality

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Lessly "Count" Fisher describes his neighborhood in East Chicago, Indiana

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Lessly "Count" Fisher describes the sights, sounds and smells of his childhood

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Lessly "Count" Fisher remembers working at the Inland Steel Company

Tape: 1 Story: 12 - Lessly "Count" Fisher recalls his childhood pastimes

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Lessly "Count" Fisher describes the New Addition gang in East Chicago, Indiana

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Lessly "Count" Fisher recalls the radio programs of his childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Lessly "Count" Fisher describes his early education

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Lessly "Count" Fisher remembers Joe Louis and Jack Johnson

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Lessly "Count" Fisher describes the influence of his teachers

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Lessly "Count" Fisher remembers graduating from Washington High School in East Chicago, Indiana

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Lessly "Count" Fisher recalls his experiences in fights

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Lessly "Count" Fisher remembers wrestling at Washington High School

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Lessly "Count" Fisher recalls his early aspirations

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Lessly "Count" Fisher remembers his early musical career

Tape: 2 Story: 11 - Lessly "Count" Fisher remembers working for Jake Brenneman

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Lessly "Count" Fisher remembers performing in nightclubs in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Lessly "Count" Fisher recalls being hired by Jake Brenneman

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Lessly "Count" Fisher describes his early career

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Lessly "Count" Fisher remembers his fellow musicians

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Lessly "Count" Fisher talks about touring as a musician

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Lessly "Count" Fisher talks about contemporary music

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Lessly "Count" Fisher describes his income as a musician

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Lessly "Count" Fisher recalls how he met his wife

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Lessly "Count" Fisher recalls purchasing a nightclub in Indianapolis, Indiana

Tape: 3 Story: 10 - Lessly "Count" Fisher remembers the entertainment at his nightclub

Tape: 3 Story: 11 - Lessly "Count" Fisher remembers his nightclub's patrons

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Lessly "Count" Fisher remembers the rules at his nightclub

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Lessly "Count" Fisher remembers hiring John Coltrane and Elvin Jones

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Lessly "Count" Fisher recalls being cheated by a bartender

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Lessly "Count" Fisher remembers selling the Chateau de Count et Eve nightclub

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Lessly "Count" Fisher remembers joining the police department

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Lessly "Count" Fisher recalls his business ventures in Grand Rapids, Michigan

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Lessly "Count" Fisher recalls becoming the chief of police in Lake County, Michigan

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Lessly "Count" Fisher recalls his career as the chief of police in Idlewild, Michigan

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Lessly "Count" Fisher describes his retirement

Tape: 4 Story: 10 - Lessly "Count" Fisher reflects upon his life

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Lessly "Count" Fisher reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Lessly "Count" Fisher remembers raising his children

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Lessly "Count" Fisher describes his hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Lessly "Count" Fisher describes his hopes for the world

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Lessly "Count" Fisher narrates his photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$4

DAStory

6$5

DATitle
Lessly "Count" Fisher talks about contemporary music
Lessly "Count" Fisher remembers joining the police department
Transcript
Now did you have a chance to cut any records or anything?$$No. I had a chance but I didn't cut 'em.$$Okay. Why not?$$I don't--crazy. Just like my wife [HistoryMaker Lois Fisher] should've been cut. If she had've been cut, she'd been on top right now. You ought to hear her, she's tough. She's one of the finest singers in the country right now. Well, right now she is the finest, 'cause all these little funky singers that thinking they singers, and I hope you print this, all them people that think they are musicians ain't nothing today. They can't read, they can't sang, they talk, they rap, they talk bull, they make--they talk the wrong sentences, they say the nastiest things on records today. They ain't got no voice, they holler. And how they make that much money I don't know. And you can quote Count Fisher [HistoryMaker Lessly "Count" Fisher] for saying that.$$Well, now, okay. Well--$$And if they don't like it, come see me.$I know you did some, did some music gigs around here [Grand Rapids, Michigan] as well, but you ended up joining the police department. How did that happen?$$Was working--$$Was it a sheriff's department (unclear) (simultaneous)?$$(Simultaneous) Sheriff's department.$$Sherriff's department.$$I was working in--I don't know--downtown, was working one of the clubs and the boss of the friend of the court frequented the place I worked. He was a singer and he liked what we was playing, and he asked me one night to let him sing. I said, "Come on, you know." I let anybody, you know, if you can do it. He sang, and he sang pretty good. So he started coming in and started to singing and he liked to sing. He started coming one night and then he coming two nights, then he started to coming in three nights a week. So one night, walked up to me and was talking, and he said, "How'd you like to be policeman?" And I laughed at-"What the hell you talking 'bout?" What's his name--Bill Rowe [ph.]. I said, "What you talking 'bout, Bill?" He said, "How you--I think you'd make a good cop." I said, "Man, you got to be silly." He said, "Well, you think about it." He started to singing, you know. So, a couple more nights he come back, he said, "Count Fisher [HistoryMaker Lessly "Count" Fisher]," he said, "I'd like for you to be one of my deputies." I said, "What you mean one of your deputies?" (Laughter) And he told me who he was. "Oh, man, you kidding?" I said, "Well, let me talk to my wife [HistoryMaker Lois Fisher]," I'm kidding. So I went and talked to her. She say, "Well, baby, you working three or four nights a week, and it wouldn't hurt if he let you, you know, play music. See, we need the money." I said, "Hey, I never thought about it but all right." She said, "You like to fight." She said, "You know." I say, "Yeah, okay." So I talked to him. He said, "Well, you be in my office tomorrow morning." No, no, take that back. He said, "When you get off I'll wait for you. I wanna show you something." I said okay. So me and my wife we went--he took us downtown, took us upstairs to his office and he said, "This is my office." He said, "You'll be working right there." I said, "What will I be doing?" He said, "Well, it's according if you pass my test--pass the test."$$Exam, yeah.$$I said, okay. So, well, you know, I love challenges I told you that. So, I said, "Okay, I'll be down here tomorrow." I went down there and took the test. The man called and told him so he called me. No, he come by the club. He said, "Damn," he said, "look at your score." He said, "You got a scholastical average that kind of score?" "I don't know." He said, "You can be a detective out there." "I don't know 'bout that." He said, "Come to my office tomorrow." I said, "'Bout what time?" He said, "Be there at nine o'clock. Can you be there?" I said, "Yeah." He said, "Can you get up that early?" I said, "Yeah." So I got up 'bout seven o'clock, took my bath, went downtown. He said, "You come to work? Come to get a job." No, he said, "You come to get a job?" I said, "Well, what you got?" He showed me the papers and things. And he said, "This how much you'll be making." I said, "Damn, that all?" I said, "What I got to do?" "You got to go out and get people, I'll put you with a partner for two weeks. If your partner say you make it, you'll be on your own and you'll get a raise." I say, "Okay, we'll try it." "Here's your badge." I said, "Already?" He said, "Here's your badge, here's your permit, gun permit." I said, "I carry a gun?" He say, "Yeah, you go to the shooting range tomorrow." He say, "I'll have Pat [ph.]," which was my partner, he's going now too. He say, "I'll have Pat take you out on the shooting range." I say, "All right." And I was, you know, I was playing with it. Hell, then I got to liking the thing, man. And after two week I went by myself. There it is.$$What kind of experiences did you have as a sheriff's deputy here?$$None.$$No?$$No, I was a musician.$$Okay.$$(Laughter) I didn't have no kind of experience. That's what--everybody laughed at when I call the boys back home, they call me a liar. When I call my boys, when I call back home and told 'em I'm a police, a deputy sheriff, they--"You lie. How in the hell you got to be a deputy as much as you fight?" You know. But I was a deputy. I stayed with them, I don't know how--'til I retired I guess.

Charles Brown

Charles “Sweet Charlie” Brown was born in Canton, Mississippi, on February 24, 1936. Brown's parents, Ruby McClure Brown and Reginald Brown, Sr., moved to Chicago when Brown was still young, and playing basketball in Washington Park became the center of his activity. After attending grade school at Betsey Ross, Brown went on to attend DuSable High School.

In 1954, along with teammates Karl Dennis, Bobby Jackson, Paxton Lumpkin, and Shellie McMillon, Brown was part of the DuSable Panthers basketball team, which became the first all-black team to reach the finals of the Illinois state high school basketball championship. The Panthers finished second that season, with their only loss coming in the final game. Following high school, Brown briefly attended Indiana University before transferring to Seattle University; there, he joined basketball legend Elgin Baylor on the court, and Brown’s game winning shot against UCLA in the Elite Eight propelled Seattle to the Final Four in the 1958 NCAA tournament. The following year, Brown was named as an All-American.

Following his graduation from college, Brown played in the Amateur Athletic Union (AAU) on teams in Seattle and Chicago. Following his retirement from basketball, Brown worked as a community relations executive for the Jewel Grocery Corporation. He has since retired, but his passion for basketball remains. In 1994, Brown officiated over the Class AA Illinois state championship game, and the assignment director of referees for the Chicago Public League. In 1995, Lettuce Entertain You and Rich Melman began funding a senior basketball tournament, now known as the Windy City Shootout; Brown served as the president from the beginning of the tournament, which was aimed at players fifty and older from around North America.

Accession Number

A2004.154

Sex

Male

Interview Date

8/31/2004

Last Name

Brown

Maker Category
Organizations
Schools

Du Sable Leadership Academy

Betsy Ross Elementary School

Indiana University

Seattle University

Search Occupation Category
First Name

Charles

Birth City, State, Country

Canton

HM ID

BRO24

Favorite Season

Summer

State

Mississippi

Favorite Vacation Destination

None

Favorite Quote

Live It, Love It, And Make The Best Of It.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Illinois

Birth Date

2/24/1936

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Chicago

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Chicken, Fish

Short Description

Basketball player and basketball official Charles Brown (1936 - ) was part of the DuSable Panthers basketball team, which became the first all-black team to reach the finals of the Illinois state high school basketball championship. Brown went on to play in the Amateur Athletic Union on teams in Seattle and Chicago, and after his retirement, became the assignment director of referees for the Chicago Public League, and began funding a senior basketball tournament, now known as the Windy City Shootout.

Employment

Jewel Food

Windy City Shootout

YMCA of Metropolitan Chicago

Chicago Jamaco Saints

Buchan Bakers

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Charles Brown's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Charles Brown lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Charles Brown talks about his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Charles Brown explains why his maternal family left Mississippi and moved to Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Charles Brown talks about his father and lists his siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Charles Brown describes his father's family background and his mother's education

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Charles Brown describes his earliest childhood memories of playing in Washington Park in Chicago, Illinois, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Charles Brown describes his earliest childhood memories of playing in Washington Park in Chicago, Illinois, pt. 2

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Charles Brown describes the sights, sounds and smells of growing up in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Charles Brown talks about his early education at home and at Betsy Ross Elementary School in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Charles Brown explains why he attended Dusable High School in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Charles Brown talks about his favorite subject at Betsy Ross Elementary School in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Charles Brown describes his activities at Betsy Ross Elementary School in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Charles Brown compares class elections at Betsy Ross Elementary School to Democratic machine politics in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Charles Brown recalls his teachers at Betsy Ross Elementary School and DuSable High School in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Charles Brown recalls how he first began playing basketball during his time at DuSable High School in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Charles Brown recalls playing basketball at DuSable High School in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Charles Brown recalls the limited opportunities to play organized basketball as a child in Chicago, Illinois in the 1940s and 1950s

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Charles Brown recalls his local sports heroes who went on to have professional careers

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Charles Brown recalls trying other sports such as football and wrestling

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Charles Brown talks about his jump shot

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Charles Brown describes the basketball position he played at DuSable High School in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Charles Brown lists the players on the 1953 and 1954 DuSable High School basketball teams, and other good basketball teams in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Charles Brown recalls the DuSable High School basketball team's opponents in the Chicago Public School Athletic League

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Charles Brown talks about the restrictions against African Americans playing division one college basketball in the 1950s

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Charles Brown talks about the Seattle University vs. the University of Kentucky 1958 NCAA Championship Game

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Charles Brown recalls the career of professional basketball player Bob Boozer

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Charles Brown talks about facing discrimination in travel accommodations while playing Amateur Athletic Union basketball

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Charles Brown recalls playing against white teams with hostile fans in high school and college

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Charles Brown talks about lessons he learned for navigating tense interactions in various situations

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Charles Brown recalls the 1954 Illinois boys state basketball championship game, pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Charles Brown recalls the 1954 Illinois boys state basketball championship game, pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Charles Brown reflects upon the officiating in the 1954 Illinois boys state basketball Championship game

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Charles Brown talks about his knee injury and recovering from his knee surgery

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Charles Brown talks about his career after he stopped playing basketball

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Charles Brown talks about officiating youth basketball

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Charles Brown explains the origins of the Windy City Shootout, pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Charles Brown explains the origins of the Windy City Shootout, pt. 2

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Charles Brown remembers the first Windy City Shootout tournament in 1990

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Charles Brown talks about the Windy City Shootout and continuing to play basketball as a senior citizen

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Charles Brown explains how players are assigned to teams in the Windy City Senior Basketball League

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Charles Brown reflects upon the U.S. Men's Basketball Team's loss in the 2004 Summer Olympics in Athens, Greece

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Charles Brown describes his hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Charles Brown reflects upon his life

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Charles Brown reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Charles Brown lists his children and grandchild

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - Charles Brown describes how he would like to be remembered

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$4

DAStory

5$2

DATitle
Charles Brown talks about his jump shot
Charles Brown talks about the restrictions against African Americans playing division one college basketball in the 1950s
Transcript
Let's just take you back to DuSable [High School, Chicago, Illinois] in 19--now when you--I was asking you about some, some of the heroes, sports heroes around town and stuff but when, when you started playing basketball, now you just, just started as an eighth grader, I mean what were the, what were the skills that you had to work on the hardest? I mean what, what could you do you know at that time? I mean what was your best skill in that?$$My best skill was shooting always. And I was known for just a long shot. I had one shot when I started. It was a hook shot. I took the ball and turned my back to the basket because I was too small to do anything else. When I learned how to shoot the jump shot, it was just coming into being. There was no jump shot, that was a one hand push and a jump shot it was something that was unheard of. I think someone said that a guy by the name of Hank Luisetti was supposed to have originated the jump shot, that's arguably you know true but we don't know. But I had a one handed push shot after learning how to hold the ball on the bottom with one hand and then pushing it away with the other. That was my shot. But then after realizing you can get your shot off a lot faster if you were on the run and you stopped and jumped and shot it. And so I developed this shot along with many guys who were experimenting with it at the time. A guy by the name of Ed Spears [ph.], he was a teammate of ours. He's one of the three people that graduated in my junior year at half season. That January graduation that was the year we were--we did win the city championship with three new members coming up from the, the bench. But Ed Spears had what we considered the, the most perfect jump shot ever and he could hit it eight, nine, ten, eight out of ten easily. Eddy was a--also a neighborhood of mine. He lived in the next block and we're still friends. But Eddy would shoot what we call the rocking chair jump shot. He'd get up in the air and he'd sit down. And he'd shoot the ball as if he was sitting in a chair. And it was one of the most--it was the prettiest shot that you wanna see. And he was a nervous kind of guy. But when he jumped up in the air he looked like he just relaxed and it looked like he was looking at television, just shooting the ball. Well he opened up the [Illinois] Tech [Holiday Basketball] Tournament with like four, five, six of these in my junior year. He's still known and he still shoots that shot. I think he's almost seventy years old but he can still shoot that shot. It still looks good to me today as it did way back when. And I have some footage a couple of years ago we played a, a rematch, a fundraising game against [Theodore] Roosevelt High School [Chicago, Illinois] over at Roosevelt. And I got him on film shooting that shot. I can use that same film and reflect it all the way back to 1953 and you couldn't tell the difference between the guy. So that was my favorite shot was the jump shot--$$Okay.$$--and that was the shot that Coach [Jim] Brown said "Son if you don't have to drive to the basket, if you don't have to dribble the ball and you can make seven to eight out of ten from right here, why bother." And his favorite saying was "Shoot the ball son, shoot the ball," that was it and maybe slap the hell out of you. (Laughter) And then you'd go and do what Jim Brown said. You know, but that was his saying and even now many of the guys they get together and they look at each other and use that term, "Shoot the ball son," you know so you can see jump shot without a doubt, without a doubt. That was a favorite shot.$We all went to college 'cause Jim Brown was good at seeing to it that we all got into college. Paxton [Lumpkin] and I went to Indiana University in Bloomington [Indiana]. Curly [Johnson] and Shellie [McMillon] went to Bradley [University] down in Peoria [Illinois]. Bobby Jackson went to Northern [Illinois University] up in DeKalb [Illinois]. Karl Dennis also went to Northern. I am not sure where all the rest of the guys go but I'm sure if I thought about it I could tell you each one. But those are the ones that have come to mind that went to the major colleges because at that time blacks weren't attending major colleges at division one. Division one didn't have blacks playing and even when we went to play, the unwritten rule across the country among all the division one coaches, you played one black, two max.$$Right.$$And you don't play more than two unless you're losing. And so was the case when Paxton and I was in Indiana, the other two blacks were Hallie Bryant who went on to play twenty-five years with the [Harlem] Globetrotters because he couldn't play in the NBA [National Basketball Association] and Wally Choice, Montclair, New Jersey.$$Oh.$$And I can remember being a part of a, a game against Michigan State [University, East Lansing, Michigan] at that time Julius McCoy who was All American in football and basketball at Michigan State. We were losing like seventeen points and Coach [Branch] McCracken put in all four black guys. We caught up and I think we took a three point maybe two, three or four point lead. And he jumped up on the floor in the middle of a fast break and called time out. And there was mass substitution. All the blacks came out. And we won the game, but it was a very obvious move that we had worked our butts off to get to get to this--to take this lead back from a seventeen point deficit and then we all came out. So the rule was adhered to. And you know you can talk to some you know white coaches now today they, they talk about this unwritten rule among division one coaches. And until the guy [Don Haskins] down at UTEP [Texas Western College of the University of Texas; The University of Texas at El Paso, El Paso, Texas] who won the NCAA [National Collegiate Athletic Association] championship and he received a lot of pressure because they, they said that he had an all black team. And Carl Nicks in the--from Englewood High School [Chicago, Illinois] was on that team. No Carl Nicks I think he was with Larry Bird down in Indiana State [University, Terre Haute, Indiana], but there was someone else I think from Chicago [Illinois] on the UTEP team but anyway that was considered to be an all-black team which it wasn't not all-black, but it was primarily black. And they were like the first ones to win the NCAA championship. And he was criticized for using mostly black players.