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William T. Coleman, Jr.

William Thaddeus Coleman, Jr., was the first African American to clerk for a U.S. Supreme Court justice, served as secretary of transportation under the Ford administration, and helped try numerous important civil rights cases. He was born on July 7, 1920, in the Germantown district of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, to William Thaddeus and Laura Beatrice Mason Coleman. Coleman’s father was a director of the Germantown boys club for forty years, and as a result, Coleman met many African American notables at an early age, including W.E.B. DuBois. After attending an all-black segregated elementary school, Coleman attended the mostly-white Germantown High School. After high school, Coleman attended the University of Pennsylvania, where he graduated summa cum laude with his B.A. degree in 1941. Eager to work in law ever since childhood, Coleman attended Harvard Law School later that year. In 1943, he joined the U.S. Army Air Corps. As defense counsel for eighteen courts-martial, he won acquittals for sixteen. He returned to Harvard Law School after the war.

In 1946, Coleman received his L.L.B. degree magna cum laude from Harvard Law School, after becoming the first African American man to serve on the board of editors of the Harvard Law Review. He was a Langdell fellow, and was therefore permitted to stay at Harvard Law School to study for an extra year. In 1947, he was admitted to the bar and obtained a job working as a law clerk with Judge Herbert F. Goodrich of the Third Circuit’s U.S. Court of Appeals. The following year, he became U.S. Supreme Court Associate Justice Felix Frankfurter’s law clerk, and as such, he was the first African American to clerk for the U.S. Supreme Court.

In 1949, Coleman joined Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton, and Garrison, a noted New York law firm, where he met Thurgood Marshall and worked pro bono to assist Marshall with NAACP cases. In 1952, Coleman became the first African American to join an all-white firm, and in 1966, he became partner at Dilworth, Paxon, Kalish, Levy and Coleman. Coleman worked in the Civil Rights Movement throughout the 1950s, including five cases for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund (LDF) cases that led directly to the Brown v. Board of Education decision. He also served as co-counsel for McLaughlin v. Florida, a case that decided the constitutionality of interracial marriages.

In 1959, President Eisenhower convinced Coleman to work on the President’s commission on employment policy; Coleman continued to work in presidential commissions for Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon, including the Warren commission’s investigation of Kennedy’s assassination. In 1971, Coleman was elected president of the NAACP-LDF. In 1975, Coleman was appointed President Gerald Ford's Secretary of Transportation, becoming only the second African American to hold a cabinet-level position. During his tenure, he created the first Statement of National Transportation Policy in U.S. history. When Carter became president in 1976, Coleman returned to the private sector, becoming a senior partner of the Los Angeles-based O’Melveny & Myers law firm. In 1995, Coleman was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom for his contributions to the legal profession and to society.

Coleman passed away on March 31, 2017 at the age of 96.

Accession Number

A2006.132

Sex

Male

Interview Date

11/7/2006

Last Name

Coleman

Maker Category
Middle Name

T.

Schools

Germantown High School

Roosevelt Middle School

Thomas Meehan School

John E. Hill School

Harvard Law School

University of Pennsylvania

First Name

William

Birth City, State, Country

Philadelphia

HM ID

COL09

Favorite Season

Summer

State

Pennsylvania

Favorite Vacation Destination

Vermont

Favorite Quote

None

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

District of Columbia

Birth Date

7/7/1920

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Washington

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Wife's Cooking

Death Date

3/31/2017

Short Description

Corporate lawyer and presidential secretary William T. Coleman, Jr. (1920 - 2017 ) was the second African American to hold a Cabinet position at Harvard Law School, the first African American clerk of the U.S. Supreme Court and the first African American to join an all-white law firm; he was senior partner of O’Melveny & Myers LLP.

Employment

U.S Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit

U.S. Supreme Court

Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & Garrison

NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, Inc.

Dilworth, Paxson, Kalish and Levy

U.S. Department of Transportation

O'Melveny and Myers

Favorite Color

Dark Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr.'s interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes how his parents met

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his siblings and the origins of his name

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his earliest childhood memory

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes the sights, sounds and smells of his childhood

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his community in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr, describes his early racial identity

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his family traditions

Tape: 1 Story: 12 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his early education

Tape: 1 Story: 13 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his reading disability

Tape: 1 Story: 14 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about his family's history

Tape: 1 Story: 15 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls St. Barnabas' Episcopal Church in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his early aspiration to become a lawyer

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers his early interest in civil rights

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes the Quaker philosophy

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his high school experiences

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers his friends from high school

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his high school influences and mentors

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his decision to attend the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls his initial experiences at the University of Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about attending an integrated university

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers his classmate from University of Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 11 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls joining Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity

Tape: 2 Story: 12 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his impressions upon leaving University of Pennsylvania

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers his motivation to pursue a law career

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes the influence of politics in his early life

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls his decision to attend Harvard Law School

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his experience at Harvard Law School

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls his U.S. Army Air Corps pilot training

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers the U.S. Army Air Corps

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls his experience of discrimination in the U.S. military

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers meeting Thurgood Marshall

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his wife, Lovida Hardin Coleman, Jr.

Tape: 3 Story: 10 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls his return to Harvard Law School

Tape: 3 Story: 11 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his friendship with Elliot Lee Richardson

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his role on the Harvard Law Review while at law school

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about Charles Hamilton Houston and William H. Hastie

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his interest in jurisprudence

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his classes at Harvard Law School

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls the debates at the Harvard Law Review

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers his early legal career

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls being the first black clerk to a U.S. Supreme Court justice

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers his clerkship under Felix Frankfurter

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes Justice Felix Frankfurter

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes the United States Supreme Court

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers segregation in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his position at Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton and Garrison LLP

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls his experience at Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton and Garrison LLP

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls working on Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Mr. William Coleman, Jr. reflects upon his involvement in Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes the research for Brown v. the Board of Education of Topeka

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls the attorneys involved in Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes the roles involved in winning a legal case

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes the cases consolidated into Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls the arguments of Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his relationship with Thurgood Marshall

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes the impact of Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about the language of deliberate speed in integration

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls being hired at Dilworth, Paxon, Kalish, and Levy

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers Dilworth, Paxon, Kalish and Levy

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his clients at Dilworth, Paxon, Kalish, Levy and Coleman

Tape: 6 Story: 10 - William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers the Girard College desegregation case

Tape: 6 Story: 11 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about his corporate board involvement

Tape: 6 Story: 12 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his casework at Dilworth, Paxson, Kalish and Levy

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his role in the Warren Commission, pt. 1

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his role in the Warren Commission, pt. 2

Tape: 7 Story: 3 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls Thurgood Marshall's appointment to the U.S. Supreme Court

Tape: 7 Story: 4 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about the Watergate Scandal

Tape: 7 Story: 5 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about his wife

Tape: 7 Story: 6 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his appointment to the Department of Transportation

Tape: 7 Story: 7 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about President Richard Milhous Nixon

Tape: 7 Story: 8 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about President Gerald Rudolph Ford, Jr.

Tape: 7 Story: 9 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his leadership of the U.S. Department of Transportation

Tape: 7 Story: 10 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls the busing crisis in Boston, Massachusetts

Tape: 8 Story: 1 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his aspirations as U.S. Secretary of the Department of Transportation

Tape: 8 Story: 2 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. recalls joining the board of International Business Machines Corporation

Tape: 8 Story: 3 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. remembers joining O'Melveny and Meyers LLP

Tape: 8 Story: 4 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes the clients and counsel at O'Melveny and Meyers LLP

Tape: 8 Story: 5 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about law firm branches in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 8 Story: 6 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his career at O'Melveny and Meyers LLP

Tape: 8 Story: 7 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about the impact of globalization on law

Tape: 8 Story: 8 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes the importance of business education for lawyers, pt. 1

Tape: 8 Story: 9 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about legal education

Tape: 8 Story: 10 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes the importance of business education for lawyers, pt. 2

Tape: 9 Story: 1 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about education in the African American community

Tape: 9 Story: 2 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. reflects upon integration

Tape: 9 Story: 3 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about President William Jefferson Clinton

Tape: 9 Story: 4 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his children

Tape: 9 Story: 5 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about his autobiography

Tape: 9 Story: 6 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. reflects upon his legacy and how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 9 Story: 7 - Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. narrates his photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$6

DAStory

1$6

DATitle
Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. describes his early aspiration to become a lawyer
Mr. William T. Coleman, Jr. talks about the language of deliberate speed in integration
Transcript
I also read that you knew very early that you wanted to be a lawyer and you would, you know, sneak into courtrooms. Is that--what age was that?$$Oh, I, well, what it, what it was, or maybe about in the 1st of December they'd be two or three evening conversations between my mother [Laura Mason Coleman] and father [William T. Coleman, Sr.] as how much they could spend for Christmas. And, they finally would agree upon a certain amount and then my mother would say, "Well, tomorrow why don't you all meet me in town?" You know, we have to go in town to shop. And, my sister [Emma Coleman Dooley], when we got downtown would say, "Well, why don't you shop for me first? Because I could then take the trolley, go home and get dinner for you." And, I certainly didn't wanna stay around watching girls try on clothes and things like that. So, I'd go outside. But, it's cold as hell outside in '47 [1947]. So, and the city hall [Philadelphia City Hall, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania] was right across the street. And, I went in there and I went up to the fourth floor. And, they were arguing the case of Supreme Court of Pennsylvania. Well, I went down the courtroom and I saw that. And, I said, when I went home I said, "People get paid just for talking (laughter)," and so that gave me some interest. And, then I also had heard about, by that time, Charlie Houston [Charles Hamilton Houston], and Bill Hastie [William H. Hastie] and I knew Raymond Pace Alexander, and I thought that's clear. I also thought maybe I should be a doctor. But, when I was sixteen or seventeen and the doctor at the camp [Camp Emlen, Norwood, Pennsylvania] took me to see an operation on cancer of the guts so I figured that wasn't for me. So, I, so I, therefore, became a lawyer.$$Now, what, what age were you though, when you went over and, you know, went into your first courtroom? Do you remember what--?$$Oh, I couldn't've been, I'm probably about twelve or thirteen years of age, yeah.$$Can you just describe what, what that courtroom sort of felt, you know, like--?$$When I saw it, there was, what nine or seven people sitting on the bench. And, I remember one case, may not have been the first day, where the judge or the justice asked the lawyer about a certain case and he said, "Oh, judge, I don't know about that case we just decided it about a month ago." And, so, thereafter it really developed me to have it whenever I go into court. I always read the late, the late cases because I don't want anybody to, you know, tell me. But, it was, you know, we had a good time. I mean, I just--I enjoyed being a kid and we got exposed to a lot of thing. And, there was a, you know, a lot happening in Philadelphia [Pennsylvania].$You know, there'd been a lot of discussion about the, you know, the ruling [Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, 1954] in all deliberate, you know, with the ta- the line, "In all deliberate speed," you know. Do you think you understood that at the time? Whether you think there was great understanding of--?$$Well, there were, there was, there was great, there was great misunderstanding. And, what all deliberate speed meant because, what, it's 19--2006 now, and a lot of school are desegregated so, you know, and it was tough. And, obviously they--we did have two opinions. One was the Morton Salt case [United States v. Morton Salt Co., 1950] which says clearly that if somebody violates the law you have the right to make 'em end it immediately and the state could also make the violator do things which otherwise the violator wouldn't have to do. And, so, that's, so that, that was it and I had made a proposal to the, to Marshall [Thurgood Marshall] to handle the matter differently which he didn't follow. But, at the end of which I agree with what he did. But, I thought that if, if we had done something else, we'd probably could've done a little better than we did.$$Now, what was your, what was your--?$$Well, my provision was, was to say that you've said that this is illegal. Two, you gotta recognize that the life of a child for schooling is from the, is twelve years. I did not put kindergarten in 'cause I've always been suspicious of thirteen; so, I--twelve years. And, what you should do is go to court and tell the court that the governor of the state and/or the attorney general can, have to file a plan and it could start in the twelfth grade and desegregate downward. Or, it could start in the first grade descend upward, or if it would say, we'll start at the twelfth and first grade, you give 'em an extra year and leave it up to them to do it. Well, if you'd done that and then if the governor and the attorney general has to be the done to make the decision, that they will have made a difference. But, you know, we, people, everybody in the firm said, you can't do that 'cause you can't admit that once it's a violation that people can take their time to end it. And, so, as a result of that, we got what we got, which I don't think it certainly has not be as effective as it should be.$$Right. Because there was no time period or ways (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) No time period. And, nothing ever got done and you didn't, you know, recognize the real problems which is the, is, as--oh, I lost the case four to four so I can't say anything. But, in the Richmond school case [School Board of the City of Richmond v. State Board of Education of Virginia, 1973] where the judge below said that you can't desegregate these schools only by using Richmond [Virginia]. And, you have to bring in the force around the county and the court, hell no, you can't make 'em do that. Or, the San Antonio case [San Antonio Independent School District v. Rodriguez, 1973] where Marshall filed a dissent. He lost it six to three. That if you have, or you did in parts of Texas, a school district which was so poor that it couldn't afford it, that the state would have to have another taxing plan so that school districts have enough money. If you've been able to get those two things through, I think that we would've probably been better off than we are today.$$But, that, that, okay. Because really what it, what it left to was doing things legislatively on the state level?$$Yeah. Yeah (simultaneous).$$(Simultaneous) Right. And, doing cases, keep continue to do cases--$$Yeah. Yeah. But, if you've given them some incentive, you know, something. When you catch a guy doing wrong, if you say, well, if you decide to cooperate with me, I'll give you extra time. That's tends to appeal, you know. Or, you tell a guy, if you did something wrong if you don't plead guilty, I'm gonna give you twenty years. But, if you plead guilty so you could testify against somebody else, I'll give you five years. A lot of people would take the five. Even if nobody wants to go to jail for five--and I just think that psychologically that we never got that into the process.

Betty Currie

President Bill Clinton’s personal secretary Betty Currie was born Betty Grace Williams on November 10, 1939, in Edwards, Mississippi. Soon after her birth, Currie’s parents, Theodore R. and Vivian U. Williams moved with their nine children to Waukegan, Illinois. She attended McAllister Elementary School on Waukegan’s Southside. Graduating from Waukegan Township High School’s business course in 1957, Currie found clerical employment at the nearby U. S. Naval Training Station at Great Lakes, Illinois.

Following a move to Washington, D.C., Currie worked for the U. S. Navy Department, U. S. Postal Service Headquarters, U. S. Agency for International Development, U. S. Peace Corps/Action, and U. S. Department of Health and Human Services. Always striving, Currie completed special training by the U. S. Department of Agriculture and was enrolled at Howard University, American University and Antioch College.

Retiring from government service in 1984, Currie volunteered for Operation Rescue, the United Way, the Commission on the Status of Women, and Rainbow Christian Services. Currie also volunteered for the failed Democratic presidential campaigns of Mondale/Ferraro in 1984 and the Dukakis/Bentsen ticket of 1988. She hesitantly joined the Clinton/Gore campaign in Little Rock, Arkansas, in 1991, where she served with James Carville in the “war room”.

Following Bill Clinton’s 1992 election to the presidency, Currie was chosen to serve as his personal secretary in the White House. She served throughout both of Clinton’s terms. In this capacity, Currie coordinated the Presidents communications including phone calls, letters, e-mails, coordinating appointments and greeted all visitors. Meeting heroes like Nelson Mandela and Rosa Parks compensated for the long hours. In 1997, Currie testified before the special prosecutor’s investigation of the Clinton/Lewinsky affair amidst a frenzy of media attention. Described by journalist and colleagues as truthful, she still retains her association with the Clinton family.

Currie, finally retired at the time of her interview, lives in suburban Maryland with her husband and “Socks”, Chelsea Clinton’s White House cat. She has a grown daughter.

Accession Number

A2004.066

Sex

Female

Interview Date

6/8/2004

Last Name

Currie

Maker Category
Organizations
Schools

McAllister Elementary School

Waukegan High School

First Name

Betty

Birth City, State, Country

Edwards

HM ID

CUR01

Favorite Season

Fall

State

Mississippi

Favorite Vacation Destination

Boston, Massachusetts

Favorite Quote

Yes.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

District of Columbia

Birth Date

11/10/1939

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Washington

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Chicken

Short Description

Presidential secretary Betty Currie (1939 - ) was President Bill Clinton's personal secretary. Currie also volunteered for the Democratic presidential campaigns of Mondale/Ferraro in 1984 and Dukakis/Bentsen in 1988. She joined the Clinton/Gore campaign in Little Rock, Arkansas, in 1991, where she served with James Carville in the “war room.”

Employment

United States Navy

United States Postal Service

United States Agency for International Development

United States Peace Corps

United States Department of Health and Human Services

White House

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
0,0:318,21:3619,31:8029,154:8407,162:12628,285:13510,315:22290,419:24342,506:25102,515:25710,525:26394,537:26774,543:28522,588:29054,599:33690,691:33994,701:34678,711:35058,725:36046,747:36730,757:37262,765:45330,860:50220,903:50620,908:54572,1099:57162,1164:60122,1205:72150,1320:72633,1329:73047,1336:73668,1349:74841,1379:76083,1411:78015,1457:81304,1482:81508,1487:82069,1505:82324,1511:82681,1519:83038,1528:83293,1534:86536,1572:86824,1577:87112,1582:92152,1726:92584,1734:94672,1799:95176,1810:95464,1815:97336,1866:99136,1927:101512,2022:110580,2090:116473,2204:122567,2292:122981,2299:123740,2313:124154,2320:125051,2342:128708,2444:129260,2456:130226,2474:132503,2534:133607,2564:133883,2569:142880,2627:143505,2633:145097,2645$0,0:430,16:2880,74:4210,95:4700,104:6380,144:6870,153:7290,159:8130,190:8550,198:8900,204:10160,228:10650,237:12050,259:18100,281:18766,291:19802,313:23724,413:24168,420:25130,447:28164,524:28534,530:29570,559:31272,596:36186,613:36552,621:36979,630:39175,691:39480,697:39846,705:41005,747:41310,753:41737,766:47044,944:49118,1008:49423,1014:50277,1030:50521,1035:60584,1132:61842,1155:62138,1161:62434,1166:65172,1208:66504,1249:68872,1300:72276,1388:77850,1436:80150,1448:85130,1599:85370,1639:85610,1644:95210,1827:95588,1833:96029,1839:96470,1849:97478,1873:99750,1883:106280,1945:109250,1979:109880,2023:110960,2043:116900,2161:117350,2167:118250,2182:136063,2445
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Betty Currie interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Betty Currie's favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Betty Currie describes her mother's background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Betty Currie remembers her father

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Betty Currie recalls how her parents met

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Betty Currie remembers her grandparents

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Betty Currie names her siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Betty Currie describes her childhood environs

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Betty Currie describes her early involvement in the church

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Betty Currie describes her childhood personality

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Betty Currie recalls her school years

Tape: 1 Story: 12 - Betty Currie remembers media in the late 1950s

Tape: 1 Story: 13 - Betty Currie describes her high school social life

Tape: 1 Story: 14 - Betty Currie discusses her early career aspirations

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Betty Currie remembers the failure of college counselors to encourage her

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Betty Currie recalls a high school mentor

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Betty Currie recounts forgoing college to work at Great Lakes Naval Base

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Betty Currie describes her exposure to news as a youth

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Betty Currie remembers life in segregated Washington D.C.

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Betty Currie shares anecdotes from her early career in Washington D.C.

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Betty Currie relates when she noticed her political affiliation shifting left

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Betty Currie remembers her years with the Peace Corps

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Betty Currie recalls her work on several presidential campaigns

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Betty Currie regrets not graduating from college

Tape: 2 Story: 11 - Betty Currie shares her concerns about economic policy

Tape: 2 Story: 12 - Betty Currie explains her motivation for working on Democratic presidential campaigns

Tape: 2 Story: 13 - Betty Currie briefly discusses working on Bill Clinton's presidential campaign

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Betty Currie details her days with the 1992 Clinton Presidential campaign

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Betty Currie describes life in the 'War Room' with campaign director James Carville

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Betty Currie remembers the 1992 Clinton campaign

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Betty Currie relates how she became President Clinton's personal secretary

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Betty Currie discusses the Oval Office staff

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Betty Currie recalls President Clinton's daily schedule

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Betty Currie shares some memories from the Oval Office

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Bettie Currie discusses her daily ritual of going to work at the White House

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Betty Currie recalls the controversy surrounding Hillary Clinton's health plan

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Bettie Currie remembers incidents from President Clinton's first term

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Betty Currie reveals the sensitive nature of her position as Presidential Secretary

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Betty Currie recalls the 1996 re-election campaign

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Betty Currie shares some memories from the second term in the Clinton White House

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Betty Currie details her perspective of the Monica Lewinsky travails, part I

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Betty Currie details the Monica Lewinsky travails, part II

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Betty Currie describes her public image during the Monica Lewinsky scandal

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Betty Currie remembers the investigation of the Lewinsky scandal

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Betty Currie recalls other figures from the Lewinsky scandal

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Betty Currie recalls her disappointment in President Clinton's obfuscations

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Betty Currie describes Hillary Clinton's reaction to President Clinton's infidelity

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Betty Currie remembers the last years of the Clinton administration

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Betty Currie offers some thoughts on Al Gore's presidential campaign

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Betty Currie describes the last days of President Clinton's term

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Betty Currie shares anecdotes from some recent visits to the White House

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - Betty Currie notes changes in White House procedure since her tenure

Tape: 5 Story: 11 - Betty Currie discusses her activities since leaving the White House

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Betty Currie recalls meeting Nelson Mandela at the White House

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Betty Currie discusses her relationships with President Clinton's friends and family

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Betty Currie discusses her hopes and concerns for the black community

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Betty Currie reflects on Bill Clinton's and George W. Bush's presidencies

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Betty Currie considers her legacy

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Betty Currie remembers the Million Man March in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Betty Currie sums up her White House experiences

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Socks Clinton Currie

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - Photo - Betty Currie's mother, Vivian Ercell Williams, ca. 1990

Tape: 6 Story: 10 - Photo - Betty Currie with her sister Esther, ca. 2000

Tape: 6 Story: 11 - Photo - Betty Currie with Nelson Mandela and President Bill Clinton at the White House, Washington, D.C., 1993

Tape: 6 Story: 12 - Photo - Betty Currie's high school photo, Waukegan, Illinois, 1957

Tape: 6 Story: 13 - Photo - Betty Currie's daughter Toni Mitchell, and niece Leslie

Tape: 6 Story: 14 - Photos - Betty Currie's niece, Camilla

Tape: 6 Story: 15 - Photo - Betty Currie's sister, Iris Williams

Tape: 6 Story: 16 - Photo - Betty Currie's sister-in-law, Gladys Williams

Tape: 6 Story: 17 - Photo - Betty Currie and her daughter, Toni Mitchell

Tape: 6 Story: 18 - Photo - Betty Currie's brother Theodore Williams, and his daughter Camilla

Tape: 6 Story: 19 - Photo - Betty Currie's nieces and nephews

Tape: 6 Story: 20 - Photo - Betty Currie with sister Iris Williams and sister-in-law, Gladys Williams

Tape: 6 Story: 21 - Photo - Betty Currie's husband, Bob Currie, and niece, Leslie

Tape: 6 Story: 22 - Photo - Betty Currie's niece, Davie, ca.

Tape: 6 Story: 23 - Photo - Betty Currie's niece, Davie

Tape: 6 Story: 24 - Photo - Betty Currie and her husband, Bob Currie

Tape: 6 Story: 25 - Photo - Betty Currie's mother, Vivian Ercell Williams

Tape: 6 Story: 26 - Photo - Betty Currie's sister Esther, brother-in-law Davy, and Carla Thomas

Tape: 6 Story: 27 - Photo - Betty Currie's daughter, Toni Mitchell

Tape: 6 Story: 28 - Photo - Betty Currie's brother-in-law, James Hawkins

Tape: 6 Story: 29 - Photo - Betty Currie with her sister, Esther

Tape: 6 Story: 30 - Photo - Betty Currie's niece, Davie

Tape: 6 Story: 31 - Photo - Betty Currie's sister Esther, and sister-in-law Gladys Williams

Tape: 6 Story: 32 - Photo - Betty Currie's great-nephew, Omar Ishmael

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$6

DAStory

7$1

DATitle
Betty Currie shares some memories from the Oval Office
Betty Currie recalls meeting Nelson Mandela at the White House
Transcript
What are some of the memorable times that you--?$$Well, there are lot of, a lot of memories. You know, if I--well, I won't, but if I had ever decided to write a book, I wish I had written down some of the things on a daily basis. There were some goods times, and there were some bad times. There were some times that I felt totally out of it, I mean out of the loop, out of--not out of favor, but just out of what's happening. But, like when [Commerce Secretary] [Ronald Harmon] Ron Brown died [1996], that was historic, tragic, the whole thing. Every gamut of emotions went through that. And what happened, when I got to work there was a lot of, you know, whispering going on. And I said, "Is something wrong? " They said, "No, no." So I turned on channel four, NBC news. And they said, we're breaking news. We understand that Ron Brown's plane has crashed in surf of the sea, what--I forgot this country [Bosnia]. And, and I did like this--and I immediately called NSC [National Security Council]. I said, "Have you heard? They said, "Oh, is it out yet? I said, yes, it's on TV. So they were keeping it under cover. I think they wanted to verify that he had actually died in that, yeah. That was sad. Alexis Herman came by, and she had actually just cried on the President's [Bill Clinton] shoulder. When his mother died, it was also tragic. He had several, several close friends to die in office. When Vince Foster committed suicide, that was tragic, just so many things. When the plane crashed into the White House, the thing about that, I got to work that morning, and the body was still in there and everything. They finally took everything out. And they came to me, and said, Betty, you're gonna have to move. I said, "Pardon? " She said, "They found a package in the plane, and your windows aren't bulletproof." Now, the President's windows are bullet proof, but mine's weren't. I said, well, excuse me (laughs), so I left for a few minutes, and they decided the, the package was nothing that was going to explode. But I learned then, how much they cared about me (laughs).$$Did you get on the phone and order a bullet proof vest?$$(Laughs), no, I didn't. I was very, very cautious when I looked out, oh, yeah. But it's, it's just one of the most secured places because he is always accompanied by--this, this was before 9-11 [September 11 terrorist attacks, 2001], four to six secret service agents at all times. And whenever we had a crash, when somebody would jump the fence or something like that, they would surround him even more so--and just very, I thought very, very safe, except bombs bursting in.$In terms of the highlights and as far as you're concerned, and, you know, that you, the things that you remember? Is there a story or anything from the White House [Washington, D.C.] that, about a state dinner or something, an event or somebody's visit that stands out?$$[Nelson] Mandela's visit because when he came, that was, when everyone asks me, who's your favorite person you met? And I--bar none, it was Nelson Mandela. And when I go to schools with the younger kids, I have to remind them who he is. I say, "You don't know now, but you will. You will learn all about him. This is a great man." And when he came in, they had a choice of--they got through the front door at the state dinner, state visit, and they can go back out the front door. And I told the aide and the President [William J. Clinton], please let him come by my desk cause I want to meet him. And they said, no problem. So he did and, of course, it was just wonderful. And I had the pleasure of meeting him I guess maybe three times or mo--or more during our entire administration because he was a very close friend of the President's. And the state dinners were all very, very good. I only went to two, so I can't say that, and but just very nice. And I was told, I went to the one with Nelson Mandela, and I left, and those who stayed later said they danced and partied 'til the wee hours of the morning. And I--(laughs) went home, but missed that, just, just good.$$It's got to be tough partying to the wee hours of the morning--.$$Tell me, and they're working (laughs)--.$$--and working twelve hours, so that--.$$Well, if you're the President, your house is right there, so all you got to do is roll out and come on to work, but the rest of us had to go home and change and come back, but, yeah. It was, they had a carnival at the White House which was wonderful, on the South grounds. That was fun. I know once--what was it? It was the Oklahoma bombing, they gave us a, a plaque that they wanted us to plant, to put in the Rose Garden--or no, South lawn. And we had to get approval from the head usher, and it was difficult. So we finally sort of put it in a place where it could seen, not by him, but by others, yeah. The, just everything you touch, put in the Rose Garden has got to be, I mean security wise, especially even now, but they had to be okayed. You can't just drop something, yeah.$$Okay.$$Or pull up a plant or anything, yeah.

Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher

Bernice Ayesa Hassan-Fletcher was born in Philadelphia on December 29, 1922. Her parents were immigrants, her mother from Jamaica and her father from Eritrea. Hassan-Fletcher graduated from West Philadelphia High School and immediately went to work following graduation.

With the United States' entry into World War II, opportunities for women to join the workforce were abundant. Moving to Berkeley, California, Hassan-Fletcher became a bookkeeper on a naval base in Oakland. Following the war, she went to work for the phone company, becoming one of the first African American women to work the telephone switchboards in Berkeley. Later, using her bookkeeping skills, Hassan-Fletcher became the accountant for the largest co-op in the city of Berkeley. After marrying Arthur Fletcher in 1964, she became the office manager of Berkeley High School.

Hassan-Fletcher and her husband moved to Washington D.C., where she became involved with the Model Cities Program that was part of President Lyndon Johnson's War on Poverty. In 1968, she became the campaign manager for her husband's bid for lieutenant governor. In 1970, she became the office manager of her husband's consulting firm, Hassan-Fletcher & Associates. With the election of President Ronald Reagan, Hassan-Fletcher became the office manager to First Lady Nancy Reagan. Hassan-Fletcher was the first African American woman to hold this post. She returned to Fletcher & Associates following the Reagan administration.

In her spare time, Hassan-Fletcher loves to cook, baking breads and pastries as gifts during the holiday season. Hassan-Fletcher and her husband have three children, nine grandchildren and fourteen great-grandchildren.

Hassan-Fletcher passed away on October 15, 2015.

Accession Number

A2003.200

Sex

Female

Interview Date

6/14/2003

Last Name

Hassan-Fletcher

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Middle Name

Ayesha

Organizations
Schools

West Philadelphia High School

First Name

Bernyce

Birth City, State, Country

Philadelphia

HM ID

FLE03

Favorite Season

Fall, Spring

State

Pennsylvania

Favorite Vacation Destination

None

Favorite Quote

None

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

District of Columbia

Birth Date

12/29/1922

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Washington

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Fish

Death Date

10/15/2015

Short Description

Presidential secretary Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher (1922 - 2015 ) was one of the first African American women to work the telephone switchboards in Berkeley. Hassan-Fletcher became the accountant for the largest co-op in the city of Berkeley and later became the office manager to First Lady Nancy Reagan.

Employment

Berkeley High School

Hassan-Fletcher & Associates

First Lady Nancy Reagan

Favorite Color

Black, Lavender, White

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher describes her father's background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher describes her siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher talks about her East African heritage and Arabic name

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher talks about her father's deportation from the United States

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher talks about African American support of Ethiopia in the Second Italo-Ethiopian War

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher talks about her maternal family background

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher describes her mother

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher talks about her childhood hometown of Eastwick, Pennsylvania

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher talks about her father and sponsoring children in Ethiopia

Tape: 1 Story: 12 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher describes the sights, sounds and smells of her childhood in Eastwick, Pennsylvania, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 13 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher describes the sights, sounds and smells of her childhood in Eastwick, Pennsylvania, pt. 2

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher describes her community in Eastwick, Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher describes attending Beulah Baptist Church in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher describes baking as a young girl

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher describes attending McKean Elementary School in Edinboro, Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher talks about her reluctance to learn a foreign language and her ability to communicate across cultures

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher remembers her teachers at McKean Elementary School in Edinboro, Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher describes her experience as a student at West Philadelphia High School in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher describes her post-high school career path

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher describes how she met her husband, HistoryMaker Arthur Fletcher

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher describes she and HistoryMaker Arthur Fletcher's civic involvement in the 1960s

Tape: 2 Story: 11 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher describes becoming the administrative assistant to Nancy Reagan

Tape: 2 Story: 12 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher describes her tenure as the administrative assistant to Nancy Reagan

Tape: 2 Story: 13 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher briefly describes the Reagans

Tape: 2 Story: 14 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher talks about registering as an independent voter and black voter political alignment in the 1960s

Tape: 2 Story: 15 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher talks about President Richard Nixon

Tape: 2 Story: 16 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher talks briefly about President Dwight D. Eisenhower

Tape: 2 Story: 17 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher talks about HistoryMaker Arthur Fletcher's tenure as Chairman of the United States Commission on Civil Rights

Tape: 2 Story: 18 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher talks about her interaction with convicted serial killer Ted Bundy

Tape: 2 Story: 19 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher describes working with her husband, HistoryMaker Arthur Fletcher, after leaving her position in the White House

Tape: 2 Story: 20 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher talks about her interest in youth-based civic activities

Tape: 2 Story: 21 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher lists volunteer organizations she belongs to

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher talks about her Eritrean and Ethiopian features and her perspective toward racial classifications

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher talks about the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher lists civil rights organizers she met in the 1960s

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher explains what attracts children to her

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher describes her concerns for the African American community

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher considers her legacy

DASession

1$1

DATape

1$2

DAStory

6$10

DATitle
Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher talks about her father's deportation from the United States
Bernyce Ayesha Hassan-Fletcher describes she and HistoryMaker Arthur Fletcher's civic involvement in the 1960s
Transcript
And--okay, so he wasn't around that long, right? He--$$Daddy [Salam Hassan] was deported. My last picture that I have of my father was when my mother [Elizabeth Walker] took us over to Ellis Island [Upper New York Bay], where they had rounded them up, and they were there. And I, I--the mental picture that I have he was in this big room where they brought these people in. And they seemed to be all people of different hues, of different--mostly all darker colored people from some other, other countries. And I remember--the reason why I remember it so distinctly, I got a bad spanking because I didn't wanna leave my dad, being his oldest and his first daughter, and, and he and I were very, very close. He would take me to the mosque with him when he was here in this country, and we were just inseparable. So, I couldn't understand why we couldn't stay with him, or he couldn't go with us. I remember my mom taking me in the restroom giving me a spanking (laughter). She was noted for that (laughter), right on the spot. But, but so he never took out his, he never took out his naturalization papers, you know.$$Well, it was tough in those--U.S. Immigration was--$$It wasn't--you know--$$--always tough on--$$--the immigration laws were--$$--darker people. They--$$Yes, for--$$Yeah.$$And it was very tough in those days. And daddy couldn't understand. He would talk about it. The thing that bothered him so much--and I remember this distinctly 'cause I was always very alert about the racism in, in America. And he wanted to take my mother home with, back with him, but she didn't, you know, she didn't wanna go that far, having been very close to her family, you know. And I couldn't understand. I used to tease her all the time, said why didn't go with him? You, you said you loved him, you know. And my mother said, say like they say now, what, what's love got to do (laughter). But I, I couldn't--I was in a fog for quite a while after he left, you know, not being able to, to understand why, why he had to go.$$Okay, you said your brother tried to find him.$$Yeah, Osman, when he became sixteen he joined the military. And then he didn't stay in the Army too much. He got out of the Army, and then he went into the Merchant Marines. And he traveled all over the Middle East and different parts of, of, you know, of, of that part of the world. And he--people could always--he looks a lot like those Arabs, you know. And but they--and with his name being like it is, but they couldn't understand why is it that he didn't speak Arabic. But they--I understand they treated him royally. They knew Osman, from the name, and you know, the Hassan, which is very common, like Smith and Jones here in this country. And he, he never could find anything, you know.$$Did your father ever write?$$Yes, he did. He wrote for a while after he left, and he would write to my mom, and he would write mostly in Italian because he couldn't speak that English that well. And, and we used to have--out where I lived, outside of the city of Philadelphia [Pennsylvania] and--well, they call it suburbs now, but we called it the country and the sticks when I was a little girl. And he'd write, and we had an Italian shoemaker that mother would take the letters there, and he would translate it, you know, for her and whatnot. Then all of a sudden, I understand that the letters just stopped coming, and that was in the '30s [1930s], in the mid-'30s [1930s]. And that was--as I remember, I've done a little research on our--I just found out in the last twenty years that when [Benito] Mussolini had taken a lot of those, the people--they were citizens I guess of the country--and they had gone to Russia, and not knowing that part of, the history about that part of the country. And they said--$$(Simultaneous)--$$--they sent a lot of them over, those youngsters. And my daddy being such an--they tell me he was such an activist, you know, that he probably might have been, you know, one of the ones.$$He might have been in trouble (simultaneous)--$$Yeah.$$--(simultaneous)--$$My mother always felt that something had happened to him when she didn't hear from him anymore.$Okay, well, you've been civically involved in a lot of different things and even--$$I have.$$--worked in the White House. So, can, can you give us some of the highlights of your, of your life?$$Well, I went to--when I married Mr. Fletcher [HM Arthur Fletcher] we moved up to the state of Washington. And he--I went to work up there from Batelle Northwest [sic, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, Richland, Washington], one of the atomic energy business in Richland, Washington, and worked there for quite a while. Then he had elected to help him to get elected to--well, let me backtrack. We went up there, we went up there. I had worked as a--in the co-op as a bookkeeper and as an educational assistant. So we, together, he and I, we organized this self-help co-op, and I was able to be of invaluable, he says, help to him by my background in the education department while I worked at the co-op. So, as a result, I worked side by side with him in this, and then he got elected to the city council there, and then went on to run in 1968 for lieutenant government of the state of Washington, so then I became a candidate's wife (laughter), and worked very hard. That, in fact we were in Seattle [Washington] last month. The governor [Daniel Evans], who served three terms, and when the governor who Mr. Fletcher ran on the ticket with was the only--he, Mr. Fletcher was the only member of the team that didn't get elected. That's one of the few states in the United States that have, can have a governor and a lieutenant governor of different party affiliations.$$(Unclear)--$$Yeah, so--$$I think Ohio used to be like that too.$$Yeah, and I think Virginia is. You got just a few. I don't think they have more than six. I don't--I should do some research and find out 'cause people are always asking me.