The Nation’s Largest African American Video Oral History Collection Mobile search icon Mobile close search icon

Search Results

Advanced Biography Search
Mobile navigation icon Close mobile navigation icon

Dr. L. Natalie Carroll

Obstetrician and gynecologist L. Natalie Carroll was born on January 26, 1950 in Nashville, Tennessee. Her father, Dr. Carl Mark Carroll, was a physician; her mother, Ruth (Carter) Carroll, a librarian. Carroll studied psychology at Lake Forest College, in Lake Forest, Illinois, for three years, then continued her education at Meharry Medical College in Nashville, Tennessee, where she earned her M.D. degree in 1974. While at Meharry, Carroll completed an externship at Howard University College of Medicine, Washington, D.C. in pediatrics, and an externship at Baylor College of Medicine, Jefferson Davis Hospital, Houston, Texas in obstetrics and gynecology. She also completed her surgery rotation at Harvard University School of Medicine, Massachusetts General Hospital in the Harvard-Meharry Exchange Program.

In 1975, Carroll became the first woman to complete a surgery internship at the Washington Hospital Center in Washington, D.C.; and, in 1978, became the first African American woman to complete an obstetrics/gynecology residency at the same facility. From 1978 to 1980, she served as chair of the Quality Assurance Review for Women’s Clinic, supervisor/chair of Routine Obstetrics/Gynecology Care, and supervisor of the Nurse Midwife/Nurse practitioner program for obstetrics and gynecology at Darnall Army Hospital in Fort Hood, Texas. In 1980, Carroll opened her own Houston, Texas-based private ob/gyn practice and was named an associate clinical instructor, staff physician and a member of the Quality Assurance Sub-Committee for Obstetrics/Gynecology at Hermann Memorial Hospital, University of Texas Health Science Center. From 1983 to 1985, she chaired the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology at St. Elizabeth’s Hospital in Houston, and served as chairman of the Quality Assurance and Utilization Review. In 2002, Carroll was elected president of the National Medical Association (NMA), the oldest and largest organization of black healthcare professionals in the United States.

She has served on the boards of the Depelchin Children's Center and the Harris County Children's Protective Services, and on the Texas Department of Health Advisory Board Commission on Birth Defects and Genetic Abnormalities. Carroll was president of the Lone Star State Medical Association and an officer of the Houston Medical Forum. She also served as board chair of the Riverside National Bank and of the NMA. Carroll has been a member of the Alpha Omega Alpha Medical Honor Society and The Links, Inc., a Fellow of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology (ACOG), and a member of the Texas branch of ACOG, the Diabetic Epidemic Action Council of the American Diabetes Association, and the Stakeholders of AHRQ

Carroll’s awards include the March of Dimes' Outstanding Service Award and the NMA’s Outstanding Leadership Award for chairing the Health Policy Committee in 1997. She was honored by Aetna as a black American physician in 2002, and was named one of Ebony magazine’s 100 List of Organizational Leaders in 2003. Carroll has also received an honorary Doctorate of Science degree from Lake Forest College in Illinois, and a Distinguished Physician of the Year Award from the University of Texas Health Science Center, Memorial Hermann Hospital.

Carroll and her husband, Warren B. Dailey, live in Houston, Texas.

L. Natalie Carroll was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on May 8, 2014.

Accession Number

A2014.141

Sex

Female

Interview Date

5/8/2014

12/1/2016

Last Name

Carroll

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Middle Name

Natalie

Schools

Atherton Elementary

Turner Elementary School

William E. Miller Junior High School

Crispus Attucks Middle

Jack Yates High School

Lake Forest College

Meharry Medical College

First Name

LaVerne

Birth City, State, Country

Nashville

HM ID

CAR30

Favorite Season

Spring and summer

State

Tennessee

Favorite Vacation Destination

Bermuda

Favorite Quote

Nothing beats a failure but a try.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Texas

Birth Date

1/26/1950

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Houston

Country

USA

Favorite Food

I love steak, but don't eat it much any more

Short Description

Obstetrician and gynecologist Dr. L. Natalie Carroll (1950 - ) served as president of the National Medical Association from 2002 to 2003. She operated her own ob/gyn practice in Houston, Texas since 1980.

Employment

Washington Hospital Center

Dept. of Army Darnall Army Hospital

Self Employed

Hermann Memorial Hospital, University of Texas Health Science Center

St. Elizabeth's Hospital

Favorite Color

Pink

Dr. Sharon Malone

Obstetrician, gynecologist and public figure Sharon Malone was born in 1959 in Mobile, Alabama to a domestic servant and a maintenance worker for Brookley Air Force Base. Malone is the youngest of eight siblings and the sister of Vivian Malone Jones, who, in 1963, became one of the first African American students to enroll at the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa. In 1981, Malone received her B.A. degree in psychology from Harvard University.

Upon graduation, she pursued a career as a systems engineer with the IBM Corporation, but soon decided to attend medical school at Columbia University’s College of Physicians and Surgeons, where she earned her M.D. degree in 1988. That same year, Malone moved to Washington, D.C. to complete her medical residency at George Washington University. Then, in 1992, she went into private practice with the renowned Foxhall OB/GYN in Washington, D.C. Malone has also served as an associate clinical professor of obstetrics and gynecology at the George Washington University, and presented the 2012 PBS documentary, Slavery by Another Name, which charts the violent transition in 1865 from chattel slavery to forced prison labor.

Malone serves on the boards of the D.C. Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy and Historic Ford’s Theatre in Washington, D.C. She also serves on the regional panel for the selection of White House Fellows Program and was appointed to the selection committee for the Harper Lee Prize for Legal Fiction awarded by the University of Alabama School of Law. In addition, Malone has consistently been voted one of Washingtonian magazine’s “Best Doctors.”

Malone is married to Eric Holder, the first African American Attorney General of the United States. They live in Washington, D.C. with their three children, Maya, Brooke, and Eric III.

Sharon Malone was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on March 23, 2014.

Accession Number

A2014.110

Sex

Female

Interview Date

3/23/2014

Last Name

Malone

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Schools

Harvard University

Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons

St. Joseph's School

Most Pure Heart of Mary School

Emory University

W. P. Davidson High School

Most Pure Heart of Mary Catholic School

First Name

Sharon

Birth City, State, Country

Mobile

HM ID

MAL08

Favorite Season

Spring

State

Alabama

Favorite Vacation Destination

Turks and Caicos

Favorite Quote

There Are No Accidents In The Universe.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

District of Columbia

Interview Description
Birth Date

1/30/1959

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Washington

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Shrimp Creole

Short Description

Obstetrician and gynecologist Dr. Sharon Malone (1959 - ) practiced in the Washington, D.C. area for over twenty years.

Employment

IBM

George Washington University

Foxhall OB/GYN

Favorite Color

Peach

Timing Pairs
0,0:2912,46:3952,57:4472,64:4992,70:5928,84:6448,90:6968,96:8112,114:9672,136:16616,212:17260,221:36868,493:38839,586:39350,596:40080,607:40956,649:41394,656:42124,668:42416,673:47793,697:50523,736:51706,749:52161,755:57692,808:58869,824:62186,860:63470,870:70312,952:70830,960:71348,969:71940,977:77120,1110:78822,1146:81190,1215:88998,1302:89468,1308:90314,1325:90972,1333:94206,1345:96006,1399:97806,1437:98310,1445:98958,1455:101344,1465:101848,1470:102478,1476:106025,1516:110941,1586:111920,1598:112632,1608:115302,1652:115747,1658:118239,1718:122898,1768:123530,1785:124162,1795:124478,1800:126216,1831:126927,1842:127480,1850:128033,1868:136091,2002:136565,2009:137118,2018:138066,2033:138856,2051:139409,2059:153800,2232:157794,2289:158178,2294:158658,2300:163074,2354:163458,2359:164226,2369:164610,2374:167826,2403:168294,2410:168606,2415:168918,2420:173014,2437:173734,2443:176510,2456:178319,2487:178587,2492:178855,2497:179458,2508:180061,2519:186796,2598:187566,2611:200142,2828:200470,2833:206000,2908:224720,3143:229600,3225:230000,3231:230640,3241:230960,3246:234740,3261:235178,3270:239412,3380:239996,3390:242723,3411:243605,3431:244424,3447:246881,3525:247448,3535:247889,3544:248267,3551:248771,3561:261144,3699:262698,3733:262994,3739:263956,3757:268026,3831:269950,3890:272244,3929:277740,3968:278832,3994:279756,4010:281856,4042:283200,4066:286610,4087$0,0:1320,28:4048,114:20923,340:21288,346:24392,359:25708,381:26178,387:28998,448:29562,455:33980,536:34638,544:39056,592:46250,694:54394,807:57634,868:59659,908:62818,959:63304,966:63871,975:67444,1047:74788,1153:75076,1158:75652,1168:75940,1173:82162,1239:82472,1245:83092,1261:83402,1267:87612,1329:88292,1342:89380,1358:89720,1364:95090,1415:95406,1420:101252,1526:105044,1647:115402,1777:115762,1783:117634,1809:124714,1895:127842,1943:128854,1981:129682,1996:132978,2107:133657,2116:138119,2255:139186,2267:139962,2276:144870,2294:145974,2316:146250,2321:146595,2327:149010,2388:150873,2431:151218,2437:151839,2455:152460,2469:152943,2478:153357,2485:157704,2591:159015,2619:159636,2631:159981,2637:160809,2652:165438,2685:165670,2690:166250,2703:169892,2777:170926,2796:171302,2807:171772,2813:175900,2865
DAStories

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668636">Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Dr. Sharon Malone's interview</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668637">Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Dr. Sharon Malone lists her favorites</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668638">Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Dr. Sharon Malone describes her father's family background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668639">Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Dr. Sharon Malone describes her mother's family background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668640">Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Dr. Sharon Malone describes her maternal ancestor, William J. Edwards, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668641">Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Dr. Sharon Malone describes her maternal ancestor, William J. Edwards, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668642">Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Dr. Sharon Malone lists her siblings</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668643">Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Dr. Sharon Malone describes how her parents met</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668644">Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Dr. Sharon Malone talks about her light complexion</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668645">Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Dr. Sharon Malone describes her early education</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668646">Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Dr. Sharon Malone recalls her experiences at a black Catholic school</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668647">Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Dr. Sharon Malone talks about her early awareness of color discrimination</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668648">Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Dr. Sharon Malone recalls her sister's admission to the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa, Alabama</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668649">Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Dr. Sharon Malone describes her sister's first day at the University of Alabama</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668650">Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Dr. Sharon Malone talks about her sister's experiences at the University of Alabama</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668651">Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Dr. Sharon Malone describes her home life</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668652">Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Dr. Sharon Malone remembers her early experiences of religion</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668653">Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Dr. Sharon Malone describes her family's holiday celebrations</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668654">Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Dr. Sharon Malone describes her early personality</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668655">Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Dr. Sharon Malone describes the sights, smells and sounds of her childhood</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668656">Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Dr. Sharon Malone describes her mother's employment</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668657">Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Dr. Sharon Malone recalls the death of her mother</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668658">Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Dr. Sharon Malone remembers living with her sister after her mother's death</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668659">Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Dr. Sharon Malone recalls living with her brother in Dallas, Texas</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668660">Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Dr. Sharon Malone remembers returning to her father's home in Mobile, Alabama</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668661">Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Dr. Sharon Malone recalls her experiences at W.P. Davidson High School in Mobile, Alabama</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668662">Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Dr. Sharon Malone recalls her experiences at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668663">Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Dr. Sharon Malone recalls her decision to transfer to Harvard University</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668664">Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Dr. Sharon Malone recalls her preparation for college</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668665">Tape: 3 Story: 10 - Dr. Sharon Malone recalls her experiences at Harvard University</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668666">Tape: 3 Story: 11 - Dr. Sharon Malone recalls her early aspirations to become a doctor</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668667">Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Dr. Sharon Malone talks about majoring in psychology at Harvard University</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668668">Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Dr. Sharon Malone recalls her first job in Atlanta, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668669">Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Dr. Sharon Malone recalls her decision to attend the Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668670">Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Dr. Sharon Malone describes her experiences at the Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668671">Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Dr. Sharon Malone describes her experiences at the Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668672">Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Dr. Sharon Malone remembers moving to Washington, D.C.</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668673">Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Dr. Sharon Malone recalls the start of her relationship with Eric H. Holder, Jr.</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668674">Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Dr. Sharon Malone talks about balancing her family and career</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668675">Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Dr. Sharon Malone remembers raising her children</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668676">Tape: 4 Story: 10 - Dr. Sharon Malone talks about her social life in Washington, D.C.</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668677">Tape: 4 Story: 11 - Dr. Sharon Malone talks about her medical practice, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668678">Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Dr. Sharon Malone talks about her focus on patient care</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668679">Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Dr. Sharon Malone talks about her medical practice, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668680">Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Dr. Sharon Malone reflects upon her medical career</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668681">Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Dr. Sharon Malone talks about the changes in obstetrics and gynecology</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668682">Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Dr. Sharon Malone talks about the challenges of practicing medicine</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668683">Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Dr. Sharon Malone talks about medical malpractice lawsuits</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668684">Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Dr. Sharon Malone talks about her husband's appointment as U.S. attorney general, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668685">Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Dr. Sharon Malone talks about her husband's appointment as U.S. attorney general, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668686">Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Dr. Sharon Malone describes the challenges of her husband's role as U.S. attorney general</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668687">Tape: 5 Story: 10 - Dr. Sharon Malone talks about coping with having a public life</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668688">Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Dr. Sharon Malone reflects upon the Obama administration</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668689">Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Dr. Sharon Malone talks about the book 'Slavery By Another Name'</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668690">Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Dr. Sharon Malone talks about her paternal uncle</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668691">Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Dr. Sharon Malone talks about the post-Reconstruction era</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668692">Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Dr. Sharon Malone talks about researching her genealogy</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668693">Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Dr. Sharon Malone reflects upon her legacy</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668694">Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Dr. Sharon Malone reflects upon the legacy of her generation</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668695">Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Dr. Sharon Malone narrates her photographs, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/668696">Tape: 7 Story: 2 - Dr. Sharon Malone narrates her photographs, pt. 2</a>

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$6

DAStory

3$3

DATitle
Dr. Sharon Malone describes her sister's first day at the University of Alabama
Dr. Sharon Malone talks about her paternal uncle
Transcript
Vivian [Vivian Malone Jones] was an amazingly courageous woman, young woman. And I think about that, and I think about that a lot now, because was--I have a daughter [Maya Holder] who is the age that Vivian was when she went to the University of Alabama [Tuscaloosa, Alabama]. And I think as a parent--and I think about my parents [Bertha Davis Malone and Willie Malone], I said, now, it's 1963, and 1963 was, was a particularly violent year in Alabama. We had had, you know, Martin Luther King [Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.] had written a 'Letter from Birmingham Jail,' you know, the children's march [Children's Crusade] with all those iconic pictures of dogs being, you know, put on children and the fire hoses. This all happened the month before she was to challenge, you know, had to go and register at the University of Alabama. And so that June 11th with all of that in mind, she had to go and my parents couldn't go with her. The lawyers from the justice department [U.S. Department of Justice] said--they came and got Vivian and James [James Hood], and they were trying to--because they really had to rehearse, they had to prepare, you know, "What are you going to do if they spit on you, if they yell," whatever. You know, to kind of get them to settle down. You know, they'd never been in front of cameras before, and they were trying to, you know, walk them through that process, and they said, my parent, my parents shouldn't come. So that first week before the challenge actually took place, they had Vivian and James--they were staying at, literally, an undisclosed location, because the--two weeks before that the only hotel that they could have stayed at in Birmingham [Alabama], the Gaston hotel [A.G. Gaston Motel], was bombed. So they didn't want people to know where they were, and they were staying in private homes. They were staying at one of her lawyer's. They had a local counsel, Arthur Shores, who is a civil rights lawyer now in Birmingham. And Vivian stayed with his secretary, and James stayed with someone else, so if anybody wanted to get to them, they wouldn't know where they were. And they didn't surface until this actual--this confrontation, the day on June 11th. And my parents couldn't be there. And they didn't know--and as this whole thing was unfolding, this is before twenty-four hours news cycle and cell phones, my parents literally didn't know what happened. And I can't imagine it. That your daughter is--and you know what people are capable of doing. They've done it. And so they confront the governor [George Wallace]. There was no coverage in the press in Mobile [Alabama], my hometown. They didn't, they didn't mention it, because--I don't know why they didn't. They just didn't. They didn't cover it, so my parents had to wait, you know, wait that evening to get a phone call to see if everything was okay. And, you know, after confronting the governor and she made it through, and she got to her dorm, she thought, okay, I made it, you know. No one shot me on the way in or did anything. And that night, she went to bed and woke up the next morning, and that was the night that Medgar Evers was shot and killed in his driveway on that, after midnight, that same day. And that was also the day that John F. Kennedy [President John Fitzgerald Kennedy] made his--the president made his famous speech on race. The governor, they confronted the governor in the afternoon, Nick Katzenbach [Nicholas Katzenbach] was down there with her, the president made his famous speech on race; Medgar Evers was shot and killed. This is all in less than twelve hours on June 11th.$$That's amazing. And your par- you're right about parents back then, but, you know, there was--it was surprising, and that's not everyone 'cause we hear about the courage- you know, the ones that went forward. But there were a lot of people not, you know, that didn't have that courage, but there was--there was this belief that you, you know, to be the first to, to go ahead to try to make change. You know, there was a lot that.$But how did you unearth the story? That's what--okay. So I understa- is it through genea- so you, you described that, you know, you knew your uncle. He was crotchety or--$$Right.$$--you know.$$Right.$$But how do you unearth the story?$$Because, you know, it, it requires a little detective work, and my uncle, you know--this is my dad's older brother. So there was this family story about Uncle Henry [Henry Malone], and you know, how you--you always hear it, but you--it doesn't make any sense to you. Uncle Henry--so when you're talking about now, it can't be any more than the 1920s, early 1920s. And Uncle Henry used to always tell his grandkids and talk about--he said, that he had, that he had to serve a year and a day; a year and a day. And, you know, and we never understood. It was, like, that was a story I didn't hear probably until, you know, ten years ago. And it never dawned on me. When you serve a year and a day, and it's 1920 and you're black in Alabama. Where do you go? You know, there is no, there is no prison. There were no long term prison facilities for anybody to be put away. You have jail, and then from jail, from there you were parceled out to, you know, work. You were on a farm, you're on a chain gang. You were doing something, but you were not sitting around lifting weights in prison. And that's when the first time, you know, I had that aha moment. It's like, that explains a lot of Uncle Henry's behavior. You know, the fact that, you know, that he drank. That he was churlish and he was whatever. And he was just a, you know, and that's the only man I knew. Now, if you can imagine. I only knew my dad [Willie Malone] as an old man. I knew my dad's older brother as a very old man, and I, I never understood him. Never understood him. And, you know, when I found that story, I--it made a little bit more sense to me.$$So you were actually interviewed (cough), you know, for--so after Doug [Douglas A. Blackmon]--I'm sorry, did the book ['Slavery by Another Name: The Re-Enslavement of Black Americans from the Civil War to World War II'] and then you were actually--then there was the documentary ['Slavery by Another Name'].$$(Nods head).$$And so can you talk about that then?$$Yeah. The documentary actually came up, probably three years--three or four years after the--after he wrote the book. So he and I had been in contact, you know, for all that time. And every time I would find something out about my family history, you know, Doug and I would talk about it. He's a fascinating guy. So, and again, that's how we were in lockstep. And then when he was going back to try to find people, he said, "Would you mind telling your story, you know, about your uncle?" And that's how I got into that. But that was a good--a good three years after we'd established contact, and I read his book.

Dr. William Finlayson

Obstetrician and gynecologist Dr. William Edward Finlayson was born on September 1, 1924 in Manatee, Florida. Finlayson served as a 1st Lieutenant in the United States Army from 1943 through 1946 and served in the Army Reserves from 1946 to 1953. He received his B.S. degree from Morehouse College in 1948 and his M.D. from Meharry Medical College in 1953. Finlayson completed his residency at the University of Minnesota in 1958.

After his residency ended, Finlayson established his own private practice in Milwaukee, Wisconsin in 1958. He continued to practice medicine for nearly the next forty years (from 1958 to 1997). Finlayson also held two fellowships: one at the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologist in 1963 and the other at the American College of Surgeons in 1964. He also taught at the Medical College of Wisconsin and the University of Wisconsin Medical School.

In 1971, Finlayson founded the first black-owned bank in Milwaukee: North Milwaukee State Bank. He also serves on the board of directors and is the bank’s chairman. In founding the bank, Finlayson’s mission was not profit based. Rather, he intended to add stature and viability to underserved communities by offering full-service banking to individuals and businesses. North Milwaukee State Bank’s mission is to facilitate community development and economic growth, personal and business advancement, home ownership growth, and financial education.

Finlayson is a member of the Milwaukee Medical Society and a house delegate to the Wisconsin Medical Society. He is a past president of the Milwaukee Gynecological Society and serves on the board of directors of the Southeastern Wisconsin Health System Agency. Finlayson is also a former president of his local YMCA board. He is a member of the Urban League and a lifetime member of the NAACP.

Finlayson was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on November 18, 2008.

Accession Number

A2008.135

Sex

Male

Interview Date

11/18/2008

Last Name

Finlayson

Maker Category
Schools

Jones High School

Campbell Street High School

Booker T. Washington High School

Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University

Morehouse College

Meharry Medical College

University of Minnesota Medical School

First Name

William

Birth City, State, Country

Manatee

HM ID

FIN02

Favorite Season

Spring

State

Florida

Favorite Vacation Destination

Hawaii

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Wisconsin

Interview Description
Birth Date

9/1/1924

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Milwaukee

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Steak

Short Description

Bank chairman and obstetrician and gynecologist Dr. William Finlayson (1924 - ) established his own private practice in Milwaukee, Wisconsin in 1958, going on to found the first black-owned bank in Milwaukee, North Milwaukee State Bank.

Employment

Baltimore and Ohio Railroad

Wheaton Franciscan St. Joseph Campus

Mt. Sinai Hospital

Medical College of Wisconsin

University of School of Medicine and Public Health

North Milwaukee State Banks

Favorite Color

Brown

DAStories

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633546">Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Dr. William Finlayson's interview</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633547">Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Dr. William Finlayson lists his favorites</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633548">Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Dr. William Finlayson describes his mother's family background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633549">Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Dr. William Finlayson talks about his parents' marriage, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633550">Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Dr. William Finlayson describes his father's family background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633551">Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Dr. William Finlayson talks about his parents' marriage, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633552">Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Dr. William Finlayson describes his earliest childhood memory</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633553">Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Dr. William Finlayson describes the sights, sounds, and smells of his childhood</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633554">Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Dr. William Finlayson describes his neighborhood in Orlando, Florida</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633555">Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Dr. William Finlayson describes the sights and smells of his childhood</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633556">Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Dr. William Finlayson talks about his early involvement in the Baptist church</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633557">Tape: 1 Story: 12 - Dr. William Finlayson recalls his early education</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633558">Tape: 1 Story: 13 - Dr. William Finlayson remembers moving to Daytona Beach, Florida</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633559">Tape: 1 Story: 14 - Dr. William Finlayson recalls his acquaintance with Mary McLeod Bethune</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633560">Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Dr. William Finlayson remembers Eleanor Roosevelt's relationship with the black community</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633561">Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Dr. William Finlayson talks about his early experiences of segregation</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633562">Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Dr. William Finlayson recalls his early academic success</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633563">Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Dr. William Finlayson remembers Booker T. Washington High School in Miami, Florida</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633564">Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Dr. William Finlayson recalls his enrollment at the Florida Agricultural and Mechanical College for Negroes in Tallahassee, Florida</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633565">Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Dr. William Finlayson remembers enlisting in the U.S. Army</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633566">Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Dr. William Finlayson recalls teaching literacy classes in the U.S. Army</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633567">Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Dr. William Finlayson recalls serving in Hawaii as a U.S. Army officer</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633568">Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Dr. William Finlayson describes his experiences at Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633569">Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Dr. William Finlayson remembers studying accounting under Jesse B. Blayton Sr.</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633570">Tape: 2 Story: 11 - Dr. William Finlayson remembers Benjamin Mays</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633571">Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Dr. William Finlayson describes his experiences at Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633572">Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Dr. William Finlayson remembers working on the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633573">Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Dr. William Finlayson recalls the importance of historically black medical schools</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633574">Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Dr. William Finlayson talks about his mentors at Meharry Medical College in Nashville, Tennessee</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633575">Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Dr. William Finlayson recalls meeting his wife</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633576">Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Dr. William Finlayson remembers the University of Minnesota Medical School in Minneapolis, Minnesota</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633577">Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Dr. William Finlayson describes his obstetric board examinations</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633578">Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Dr. William Finlayson recalls his start as a gynecologist</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633579">Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Dr. William Finlayson describes the changes in birthing practices</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633580">Tape: 3 Story: 10 - Dr. William Finlayson talks about the gynecological health problems in the black community</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633581">Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Dr. William Finlayson remembers the HIV/AIDS epidemic</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633582">Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Dr. William Finlayson talks about the health problems in the African American community</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633583">Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Dr. William Finlayson recalls his experiences of discrimination as a physician</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633584">Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Dr. William Finlayson remembers the housing discrimination in Milwaukee, Wisconsin</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633585">Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Dr. William Finlayson recalls the founding of the North Milwaukee State Bank</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633586">Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Dr. William Finlayson talks about the North Milwaukee State Bank</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633587">Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Dr. William Finlayson reflects upon his life</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633588">Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Dr. William Finlayson describes his involvement with the W.E.B. Du Bois Club</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633589">Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Dr. William Finlayson talks about the financial crisis of 2008</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633590">Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Dr. William Finlayson talks about 'The Souls of Black Folk' by W.E.B. Du Bois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633591">Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Dr. William Finlayson describes his visit to Ghana with Reverend Leon Sullivan</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633592">Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Dr. William Finlayson describes the participants in the W.E.B. Du Bois Club</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633593">Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Dr. William Finlayson talks about his organizational affiliations</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633594">Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Dr. William Finlayson reflects upon his legacy</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633595">Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Dr. William Finlayson shares his advice to aspiring doctors and bankers</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/633596">Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Dr. William Finlayson describes how he would like to be remembered</a>

Dr. Juel Pate Borders

Rev. and Dr. Juel Pate Borders was born in Chicago, Illinois, and grew up in Atlanta, Georgia. Her father, the late civil rights leader Reverend William Holmes Borders, was the pastor of Wheat Street Baptist Church in Atlanta for more than fifty years. Borders lived just a few blocks away from young Martin Luther King, Jr., who would later pattern his preaching after her father’s eloquent style.

Borders attended the Palmer Memorial Institute, a college preparatory school in Sedalia, North Carolina, established by nationally acclaimed African American educator Charlotte Hawkins Brown. In 1954, Borders earned her B.A. degree from Spelman College in Atlanta. She went on to the Medical College of Pennsylvania earning her M.D. degree in 1960, with a specialty in obstetrics and gynecology. Borders did her residency at the Albert Einstein Medical Center in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and opened her own practice in Atlanta in 1965.

Borders has maintained her family tradition of social activism. In the early 1970s, for example, she served on a court appointed biracial committee charged with overseeing the process of desegregating the Atlanta Public School System. Decades later, she pursued a second career when she followed her father’s footsteps into the ministry. She earned her Masters of Divinity degree in 1992, from the Emory University Candler School of Theology. She is the assistant to the pastor for the institutional ministries at Wheat Street Baptist Church. In the 1980s, the prominent physician had a building erected to house her practice. She is a member of the Women’s Health Care Alliance, a non-profit, independent practice association composed of physicians, specializing in obstetrics & gynecology, perinatology, gynecological oncology, and reproductive endocrinology.

Borders is a widow and the mother of two children, Rev. Theodore Benson, a minister in Philadelphia, and Dr. Elinor Benson, an Atlanta obstetrician and gynecologist.

Juel Pate Borders was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on March 25, 2004.

Accession Number

A2004.036

Sex

Female

Interview Date

3/25/2004

Last Name

Borders

Maker Category
Marital Status

Widow

Middle Name

Pate

Schools

Spelman College

Drexel University

Oglethorpe Elementary School

David T. Howard High School

Atlanta University Lab School

Palmer Memorial Institute

Emory University

First Name

Juel

Birth City, State, Country

Chicago

HM ID

BOR01

Favorite Season

Spring

State

Illinois

Favorite Vacation Destination

Alaska

Favorite Quote

I Am Somebody.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Georgia

Interview Description
Birth Date

8/26/1934

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Atlanta

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Fruit

Short Description

Obstetrician and gynecologist Dr. Juel Pate Borders (1934 - ) was the first black female OB/GYN resident at the Albert Einstein Center Northern Division in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and is the founder of the Juel Pate Borders Corporation in Atlanta, Georgia.

Employment

Wheat Street Baptist Church

Albert Einstein Medical Center

Juel Pate Borders Professional Corporation

Morehouse College School of Medicine

Favorite Color

Beige

Timing Pairs
0,0:3462,46:4408,70:5612,120:10600,207:19626,335:34655,459:45790,521:58104,724:58524,730:66412,760:67399,773:76327,823:99180,1093:99536,1098:122558,1305:123378,1317:129280,1360:137501,1431:157840,1610:158290,1616:177218,1785:179910,1799:188470,1847:188754,1852:189109,1859:189464,1865:189748,1870:190174,1878:191523,1904:191807,1909:199466,1995:201302,2016:201812,2022:227260,2286$0,0:66918,595:67230,600:77006,664:77638,675:80798,716:81114,721:81588,728:113536,1008:117268,1035:120148,1070:164150,1313
DAStories

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187898">Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Dr. Juel Pate Borders' interview</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187899">Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders lists her favorites</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187900">Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders talks about her mother</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187901">Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders describes her mother's personality</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187902">Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders talks about her father</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187903">Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders talks about her father's drive to obtain an education</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187904">Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders recalls her father's early career</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187905">Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders talks about her mother's family background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187906">Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders talks about her paternal grandfather</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187907">Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders states her maternal grandmother's names</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187908">Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders talks about her first minister in her paternal family</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/188233">Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders recalls the heirlooms and houses associated with her family</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/188234">Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders describes her childhood neighborhood of Auburn Avenue in Atlanta, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/188235">Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders reminisces about Sundays growing up in Atlanta, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/188236">Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders recalls her father's competition and reconciliation with Dr. Martin Luther King, Sr.</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/188237">Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders talks about Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.'s visits to her father's church</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/188238">Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders describes her brother's relationship with their father</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/188239">Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders describes her relationship with her father</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/188240">Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders recalls her early education at Atlanta University Laboratory School, Oglethorpe School in Atlanta, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/188241">Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders remembers attending David T. Howard High School in Atlanta, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187473">Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders recalls the sights, sounds, tastes, and smells of growing up</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187474">Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders describes herself as a child</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187475">Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders talks about her experience at the Palmer Memorial Institute in Sedalia, North Carolina</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187476">Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders remembers Dr. Charlotte Hawkins Brown</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187477">Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders names some of her high school teachers</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187478">Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders explains how she entered Spelman College in Atlanta, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187479">Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders talks about her studies at Spelman College in Atlanta, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187480">Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders remembers an incident where he father intervened in a conflict due to discrimination on a trolley in Atlanta, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187481">Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders recalls entering medical school</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187482">Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders describes her experiences in medical school</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187483">Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders talks about encountering racism from other medical colleagues</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187484">Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders recalls encountering racism during her internship and residency</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187485">Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders explains why she specialized in obstetrics and gynecology</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187486">Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders describes setting up her medical practice in Atlanta, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187487">Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders explains how she met her husband</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187488">Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders recalls her marriage to Dr. Theodore Benson</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187489">Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders talks about her children, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/187490">Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Dr. Juel Pate Borders talks about her children, pt. 2</a>

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$4

DAStory

4$4

DATitle
Dr. Juel Pate Borders recalls her father's competition and reconciliation with Dr. Martin Luther King, Sr.
Dr. Juel Pate Borders explains why she specialized in obstetrics and gynecology
Transcript
Now I know that you are younger than the King children, and the Dobbs children, but do you recall any interaction among your families, [Reverend Dr.] Martin Luther King, Jr.'s family, which was not very far from where you lived, their home on Auburn [Avenue, Atlanta, Georgia]? Did you ever visit their home and interact in any way?$$There was more interaction between the two ministers, Reverend William Holmes Borders, Sr. and Dr. Martin Luther King, Sr., they were rivals. The wives however, Mrs. Alberta [Williams] King and my mother, Mrs. Julia Pate Borders [Julia Elinor Pansy Pate], were the dearest of friends and they loved each other very much. And they would laugh--they would talk and laugh about the conflict their husbands would have and would hope that in time they would out grow it or come to some happy conclusion, you know, about the whole matter. And I have--on the occasion that I preached at Ebenezer [Baptist Church, Atlanta, Georgia], I told the congregation that at last--my mother didn't live to see it and Mrs. King didn't live to see it, but I lived to see them come together very peacefully and it was on the occasion of the death of Mrs. King. When she was shot [in 1974], of course we were all in a state of shock--the whole world was in, was in a state of shock. And I remember my father saying, "Get up, get dressed we are going to see Reverend King." That impressed me so much. He got us all together and we went to the home of Dr. Martin Luther King, Sr. He was sitting in the kitchen eating, it must have been lunch or early dinner or something and my father, who was fully dressed, came in and spoke to him and said, "These are my children." And Dr. King graciously received us and I can't remember really what they said to each other, I was just so happy that we had this peaceful union, and of course, from what I could tell from my mother and Mrs. King what they were fussing over was nothing, I mean it was just a--next to nothing, it was just two great big giants one block from each other. Both with churches, and so there you go.$$Competition--$$But, but for him to say, "Get up, get dressed, we're going to see him," and then to say to Dr. King, "These are my children," and in other words we have come in love, it was a great moment.$Why did you decide to specialize in, in obstetrics and gynecology (simultaneous)?$$(Simultaneous) And gynecology, okay. (Pause) I wanted I thought to pursue psychiatry. Up to this point my father [William Holmes Borders] had not really interfered with the choices. Remember he turned me over to my mother [Julia Elinor Pansy Pate], but he had a long talk with me in reference to practicalities and he said, "Who's coming to see you? I mean who will be your patients? Where do they get the money--who will be able to afford psychiatric care?" Now this was in the 1960s. At that time there was less stress and I'm going to say in general the approach would be if there is a major emotional problem either you go to your family member or you go to your minister, but psychiatrists at that time (shakes head). So I listened and I thought about it and I said to myself, well what are my other options and considerations? And OB [obstetrics] was a happy specialty and gynecology would mean that there was some surgery involved and there would be patients and patients and patients. And so I got into this field indirectly. It was--in retrospect it was a good move and I have been blessed with those who have come into my care and the amount of work and sacrifice required prepared me for the ministry that I'm in.