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The Honorable Gabrielle Kirk McDonald

Judge Gabrielle Kirk McDonald was born on April 12, 1942 in St. Paul, Minnesota to James Kirk and Frances English. McDonald was raised in Manhattan, New York and in Teaneck, New Jersey, where she graduated from Teaneck High School in 1959. In the early 1960s, she attended Boston University and Hunter College. She then went on to attend Howard University School of Law, where she was Notes Editor for the Howard Law Journal and received several academic awards. McDonald graduated cum laude and first in her class with her LL.B. degree in 1966.

Upon graduation, McDonald was hired as a staff attorney for the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, Inc. From 1969 to 1979, she was a founding partner, with her then-husband, attorney Mark T. McDonald, of the Houston, Texas law firm of McDonald & McDonald. While in private practice, she also taught law as an assistant professor at the Thurgood Marshall School of Law, Texas Southern University, and then as a lecturer at the University of Texas School of Law.

In 1979, McDonald was appointed as a judge on the United States District Court for the Southern District of Texas. She was the first African American to be appointed to the federal bench in Texas (and the South) and only the third African American woman federal judge in the country. McDonald resigned from the bench in 1988 and joined the law firm of Matthews & Branscomb. She also returned to academia, teaching first at St. Mary’s University School of Law, and then at the Thurgood Marshall School of Law. In 1991, she became counsel to the law firm of Walker & Satterthwaite, and later served as Special Counsel to the Chairman on Human Rights for Freeport-McMoRan, Inc.

In 1993, McDonald received the highest number of votes from the General Assembly of the United Nations and served as one of eleven judges on the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. In 1997, she became the Tribunal’s president. Then, in 2001, McDonald was called to serve as an arbitrator on the Iran-United States Claims Tribunal in The Hague, Netherlands, where she remained until her retirement in 2013.

Her publications include the co-edited volume, Substantive and Procedural Aspects of International Criminal Law: The Experience of International and National Courts, and numerous articles including The International Criminal Tribunals: Crime and Punishment in the International Arena, and Problems, Obstacles and Achievements of the ICTY.

McDonald was a member of the Board of Trustees of Howard University for twenty-three years. She also served on boards for the American Bar Association Human Rights Center and the American Arbitration Association, as well as on the Genocide Prevention Task Force. In 2014, she was elected Honorary President of the American Society of International Law. Her honors include the National Bar Association's first Equal Justice and Ronald Brown International Law Awards; the American Society of International Law's Goler T. Butcher Award for Human Rights; the Open Society Institute's first Women Groundbreakers in International Justice Award; the Dorothy Height Lifetime Achievement Award; and the Doctor of Laws Honoris Causa from several institutions. She was inducted into the Texas Women’s Hall of Fame in 1993 and the National Bar Association Hall of Fame in 2008.

McDonald has two children, Michael and Stacy, who are both lawyers.

Gabrielle Kirk McDonald was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on August 27, 2014.

Accession Number

A2014.184

Sex

Female

Interview Date

8/27/2014

Last Name

McDonald

Maker Category
Marital Status

Divorced

Middle Name

Kirk

Occupation
Schools

Howard University School of Law

Hunter College

Boston University

Teaneck Senior High School

The Manumit School

JHS 101

Ps 108 Philip J Abinanti School

St Peter Claver School

First Name

Gabrielle

Birth City, State, Country

St. Paul

HM ID

MCD07

State

Minnesota

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

New York

Birth Date

4/12/1942

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

New York

Country

USA

Short Description

Judge and educator The Honorable Gabrielle Kirk McDonald (1942 - ) was the first African American to be appointed to the federal bench in Texas and the third African American woman federal judge in the country. She also served as a judge on the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, and as an arbitrator on the Iran-United States Claims Tribunal.

Employment

NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, Inc.

McDonald & McDonald

Texas Southern University Thurgood Marshall School of Law

University of Texas School of Law

United States District Court for the Southern District of Texas

Matthews & Branscomb

St. Mary's University School of Law

Walker & Satterthwaite

Freeport-McMoRan, Inc.

International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Iran-United States Claims Tribunal

The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle

Cook County Board President Toni Preckwinkle was born in St. Paul, Minnesota on March 17, 1947. She attended Gorman Elementary School and Como Park Jr. High School. Preckwinkle graduated from Washington High School in St. Paul in 1965. She then moved to Chicago to attend the University of Chicago, where she graduated with her B.A. degree in general studies in 1969. Preckwinkle graduated with her M.A.T. degree in teaching from the University of Chicago in 1977.

After being hired as a history teacher for Chicago Public Schools, Preckwinkle began her career in politics with two unsuccessful bids for the City of Chicago’s 4th Ward aldermanic post in 1983 and 1987, respectively. In between these bids, Preckwinkle was appointed development officer for the Hyde Park Neighborhood Club in 1984. From 1985 to 1988, she served as an economic development coordinator for the City of Chicago. Preckwinkle was eventually named executive director for the Chicago Jobs Council in 1988. In 1991, Preckwinkle won the 4th Ward aldermanic seat, defeating a 17-year incumbent by 109 votes. She would go on to serve five terms, overseeing the redevelopment of the Kenwood, Oakland, Douglas, Grand Boulevard and Hyde Park neighborhoods. During Preckwinkle’s nineteen year aldermanic tenure, she became known as a Chicago City Council’s progressive member and a champion for affordable housing. Preckwinkle was also a co-sponsor of the living wage ordinances that passed the City Council in 1998 and 2002.

Preckwinkle’s political service earned her Best Alderman Award from the Independent Voters of Illinois-Independent Precinct Organization (IVI-IPO), a not-for-profit, multi-partisan, independent political organization, in 1993, 1995, 1997, 1999, 2005 and 2008. She was also the recipient of the 1997 and 2009 Leon Despres Awards, named after the legendary, iconoclastic Chicago alderman. Starting in 1992, she also served as the Democratic Committeeman for the 4th Ward. Preckwinkle declared her intention to run for Cook County Board President in 2008. Two years later, she won a hotly contested democratic primary for the seat. Preckwinkle swept through the November 2010 general election, becoming the first female to serve as President of the Cook County Board of Commissioners. She is married to Zeus Preckwinkle, has two children, and three grandchildren.

Toni Preckwinkle was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on April 19, 2012.

Accession Number

A2012.035

Sex

Female

Interview Date

4/19/2012

Last Name

Preckwinkle

Maker Category
Occupation
Schools

University of Chicago

Gorman School

Como Park Junior High School

Washington Technology Magnet School

First Name

Toni

Birth City, State, Country

St. Paul

HM ID

PRE04

Favorite Season

Fall

State

Minnesota

Favorite Vacation Destination

Northern Minnesota

Favorite Quote

None

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Illinois

Birth Date

3/17/1947

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Chicago

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Strawberry Shortcake

Short Description

County commissioner The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle (1947 - ) served as a Chicago City alderman for nineteen years before becoming the first woman to serve as president of the Cook County Board.

Employment

Cook County Board of Commissioners

Chicago City Council

Chicago Jobs Council

City of Chicago

Hyde Park Neighborhood Club

Aquinas Dominican High School

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle describes her maternal family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle describes her maternal grandparents

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle describes the African American community in Minnesota

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle describes her father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle describes the history of the Rondo community in St. Paul, Minnesota

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle talks about how her parents met

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle describes her father's U.S. military service

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle lists her siblings and extended family members

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle describes her likeness to her mother

Tape: 1 Story: 12 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle describes her earliest childhood memories

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle recalls her early experiences of bullying

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle remembers her paternal grandmother's house

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle describes her neighborhood in St. Paul, Minnesota

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle remembers the Gorman School in St. Paul, Minnesota

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle recalls her childhood activities

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle remembers the African American players on the Minnesota Vikings

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle recalls attending the Unitarian church

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle compares the black communities in St. Paul, Minnesota and Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle remembers Como Park Junior High School in St. Paul, Minnesota

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle describes her family's civic engagement

Tape: 2 Story: 11 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle remembers President John Fitzgerald Kennedy's assassination

Tape: 2 Story: 12 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle recalls the political figures in Minnesota

Tape: 2 Story: 13 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle remembers the Civil Rights Movement

Tape: 2 Story: 14 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle remembers the discrimination against Native Americans in Minnesota

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle describes her paternal family's legacy at Washington High School in St. Paul, Minnesota

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle remembers black quarterback Sandy Stephens

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle recalls her activities in high school

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle recalls her decision to attend the University of Chicago

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle remembers her teachers at Washington High School

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle talks about the rigor of the University of Chicago

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle recalls her early work on political campaigns

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle describes the political climate at the University of Chicago

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle recalls working for Paul Simon's campaign

Tape: 3 Story: 10 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle describes her experiences at the University of Chicago in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 3 Story: 11 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle describes her transition to teaching

Tape: 3 Story: 12 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle describes her master's thesis

Tape: 3 Story: 13 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle recalls teaching in the Chicago Public Schools

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle recalls the events of 1968

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle recalls meeting her husband

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle recalls working for Ralph Metcalfe's campaign

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle remembers Chicago's aldermen during the Civil Rights Movement

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle recalls her decision to run for alderman

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle recalls Mayor Harold Washington's early political career

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle remembers seeking Harold Washington's support

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle recalls working for the Harold Washington administration

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle describes her platform as alderman of the 4th Ward in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 4 Story: 10 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle recalls Mayor Harold Washington's death

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle talks about Eugene Sawyer's political career

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle recalls the federal investigations of the Chicago City Council

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle talks about black politics in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle recalls her election to Chicago City Council

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle talks about public housing in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle talks about the demolition of housing projects in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle recalls the conviction of Congressman Mel Reynolds

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle recalls Alice Palmer's congressional campaign

DASession

1$1

DATape

4$2

DAStory

10$1

DATitle
The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle recalls Mayor Harold Washington's death
The Honorable Toni Preckwinkle recalls her early experiences of bullying
Transcript
Now, back, back to '87 [1987] for a moment 'cause being a Chicagoan I have to ask you this question. Can you remember what you were doing when you heard Harold Washington passed away?$$I, I was working for the city [Chicago, Illinois] at the time, it was hard to believe, so it wasn't, you know, it was, by the afternoon the word came down that he'd passed away. And so I was at my desk, 20 North Clark [Street].$$What was the mood around the place, I mean, what--$$It was really somber because the department I was in was, you know, there--there were a lot of old timers who resisted Harold Washington in the city bureaucracy but the department that I was in, the Department of Economic Development [City of Chicago Department of Economic Development; City of Chicago Department of Planning and Development] was created by Harold Washington so it was full of people who were loyalist to him so it was very somber and discouraging.$$Okay. And 4th Ward [Chicago, Illinois] Aldermen Evans [Timothy C. Evans] was the floor leader for Harold Washington at that time, right, in '87 [1987], and there was a move to, you know, well, the death of Harold Washington eventually generated a campaign for mayor on his part, right, against--$$Gene Sawyer [HistoryMaker Eugene Sawyer].$$Yeah, Gene Sawyer, right. Did, did you have an analysis of, of the Sawyer/Evans race?$$Well, first of all I had known Gene Sawyer for a very long time. His, his kids went to the school where my, his grandchildren went to school where my husband [Preckwinkle's ex-husband, Zeus Preckwinkle] taught so I got to know him in that way. And, you know, the irony is in, in the way in this, history has treated this, Gene Sawyer has been made out to be a villain. But, but the interesting thing was in 1983 when, when Harold Washington was elected he was the first Democratic African American committeeman, Gene Sawyer, to support Harold and to support him strongly when lots of other Democratic committeemen equivocated. You know, John Stroger [HistoryMaker John H. Stroger, Jr.] supported Daley [Richard M. Daley], Tim Evans had Jane Byrne on his election day passing materials. So the black committeemen were not all on board for Harold. Harold won not because he got support from the regular Democratic organization but because he got support, overwhelming support from the black community with or without the support of Democratic committeemen. But Gene Sawyer was one of the stand up people who supported him from the very beginning.$$Well, how do you, do, do, do you have any analysis of how he and I think there were six black aldermen switched from the, what was called the Harold Washington coalition to the Ed Vrdolyak [Edward Vrdolyak], Ed Burke [Edward M. Burke] side. How did that, that, you know, people in the community perceived it like that that they jumped ship for some, for some reward, you know.$$Right. Well, I think that that Ed Vrdolyak and Ed Burke definitely didn't want Tim Evans who had been Mayor Washington's floor leader to become mayor, they wanted somebody who they thought they'd have more influence with and that turned out to be Gene Sawyer. And they didn't think they could get away with supporting somebody who wasn't African American so the question is, of the African American aldermen, and, and the choice had to be made out of the body, those were the rules, who would they support. And, and Gene Sawyer took the job. I'm not sure, given what happened to him afterwards, I'm not sure that was the best choice for him.$We were talking about growing up and one question we always ask is we ask you to, I want you to describe your neighborhood and describe some of the sights and sounds and smells of growing up.$$So we lived in the North End [St. Paul, Minnesota] which is where my, part of the city where my father [Samuel Reed] grew up. In my elementary school [Gorman School, St. Paul, Minnesota] there were only two African American families. You know, we, we did okay in our block and stuff but going to grade school we had kind of a hard time 'cause it wasn't just the kids on your block anymore. And so my, my most distinctive memory about school is two things, one that I did well, and the other is that I spent a lot of time fighting my way home from school. And that (laughter) I'm, it's hard to explain the impact that has, has had on me. First of all, we went, we had a school that went only to sixth grade 'cause in St. Paul [Minnesota], Minneapolis [Minnesota] they have junior high school so they put the seventh and eighth grade kids in junior high. It's kind of like the middle school concept. But anyway, and then there's high school. So you have, you know, seven years of elementary school including kindergarten and then three years of, of junior high and four, three years of high school. So what I remember about elementary school is as I said I, I did well and spent a lot of time fighting my way home from school. That was a, a formative experience in a lot of ways. One of the things I learned, by the time I got to about fourth grade and my younger brother [Jan Reed] was in third grade, we were as big as the sixth graders so we didn't have to fight our way home from school anymore. I mean, the thing I learned about bullies is that they want massacres and not fights. So it's a good thing to remember about them. And so if you give a bully a fight and not a massacre they don't really wanna fight. I mean, they just wanna beat people up, they don't wanna (laughter) fight. And fortunately I grew up at a time where people fought with their fists and not with knives or guns so.$$So even as a girl, you know, in--$$Well, they, they--$$--in Minnesota you had to like fight your way home and--$$Yeah, because there would be, there would be a group of little, you know, thugs waiting for us the way we walked home.$$Now--$$My memory of it, my memory of it, of course, is it happened all the time, I'm sure it was less frequently (laughter) than all the time but clearly it made an impact on me. No, you know, kids would call you nigger and they wanted to beat up my brother, they really weren't, when I was in kindergarten they pretty much left me alone but when my brother got in kindergarten and I got in first grade, my brother is a lot darker than I am and besides he's a boy but I wasn't gonna let 'em beat up my little brother as much as we fought (laughter) I wasn't gonna let 'em beat up my brother. So, so the two of us got in fights on the way home. And as I said it pretty much ended in fourth grade 'cause we were pretty tall and big and the sixth graders didn't wanna fight people who were as big as they were so.$$Okay. How, how big is your brother now?$$Well, I'm 6 feet tall, he's five- about 5'11". You know, people in this country have gotten a lot taller, better nutrition and, and but we were pretty big for our age when we were kids so.$$Okay. And I just wondered, I was tempted to ask this, I, so, so your brother is darker than you, are your sisters the same color as you?$$Well, my sister, you know, my sister [Renee Reed], my younger brother [Marc Reed] and I are about the same color, my brother is darker.$$Okay. I was just wondering.$$You know, in, in lots of black families, you know, there's a sort of color gradation--$$Sure.$$--and not everybody's (laughter) exactly the same color.$$Yeah, I just wondered how that, in a place like Minnesota if they were really sure who you were, you know, all the time, you know, I mean--$$Oh, of course.$$--they--$$Oh, oh, believe me they were sure.$$Okay.$$(Laughter).$$Okay. 'Cause I know, you know, in Chicago [Illinois] they, there were ways, I mean, it, well, it depends on where you are sometimes as there's a hint, sometimes they don't know what (laughter) to think, you know, depending on, you know, what your color range is, you know. So I, I (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) Well, in, in a city, in a city like Chicago where there are, you know, lots of Latinos and lots of Southern European folks who are kind of, you know, caramel colored, it's, it's sometimes hard to figure out but in St. Paul, Minnesota, where just about everybody was Scandinavian or German, it was pretty easy.

The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III

Former state Senator Clarence M. Mitchell III was born in St. Paul, Minnesota, on December 14, 1939. A member of the illustrious Mitchell family of Baltimore, Mitchell grew up in Baltimore, attending the city’s public schools. After graduating from Gonzaga High School, Mitchell attended the University of Maryland and Morgan State University, earning his J.D. degree from the University of Baltimore Law School.

Coming from a family well known for their commitment to advocacy, Mitchell was a cofounder of the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) in 1960; he also worked closely with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. In 1963, Mitchell was elected to the Maryland House of Delegates, where he served until 1967; that year, he became the youngest person to serve in the Maryland State Senate. Mitchell remained in the Maryland Senate for nearly two decades, finally stepping down in 1986. While in the State Senate, Mitchell served as the deputy majority leader; the majority whip; the chairman of the executive nominations committee; the co-chair of the joint committee on federal relations; and was a member of the judicial proceedings committee. Mitchell also served as the president of the National Black Caucus of State Legislators from 1979 to 1981.

During his time in office, Mitchell was involved in a number of legislative achievements, including the creation of the Maryland Office of Minority Business Enterprise, and Maryland’s first Fair Employment Bill, which he sponsored. Mitchell served as a special advisor to Presidents John F. Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson, Jimmy Carter, and Vice President Hubert Humphrey; he also served as a delegate to the Democratic National Conventions in 1964, 1968, 1976, 1980 and 1984.

Mitchell went on to become the president and CEO of Vanguard, Inc., an international government affairs, public relations, and business development consulting company; he also co-founded and served as chairman of the Center for the Study of Harassment of African Americans.

Hon. Clarence Mitchell passed away on October 10, 2012.

Accession Number

A2004.071

Sex

Male

Interview Date

6/11/2004 |and| 8/6/2004

Last Name

Mitchell

Maker Category
Occupation
Schools

Gonzaga High School

Henry Highland Garnet Elementary School

Booker T. Washington Middle School for the Arts

University of Maryland

Morgan State University

First Name

Clarence

Birth City, State, Country

St. Paul

HM ID

MIT06

Favorite Season

Spring, Summer

State

Minnesota

Favorite Vacation Destination

Caribbean, Arundel On The Bay, Maryland

Favorite Quote

He’s An Old Blind Bear Alone In The Winter Woods, With Only The Smell Of His Breath For Comfort. Too Mean To Die, Too Old To Care. But Show Some Caution. He’s Still The Bear.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

District of Columbia

Birth Date

12/14/1939

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Washington

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Steak, Seafood

Death Date

10/10/2012

Short Description

State senator The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III (1939 - 2012 ) was involved in the creation of the Maryland Office of Minority Business Enterprise and Maryland’s first Fair Employment Bill. He served as a special advisor to Presidents John F. Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson, Jimmy Carter and Vice President Hubert Humphrey. He is currently the president and CEO of Vanguard, Inc., an international government affairs, public relations, and business development consulting company.

Employment

Maryland General Assembly

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
0,0:935,22:9775,187:22905,421:24189,436:25152,443:25687,450:30490,482:41672,616:42393,625:51751,747:52043,752:53795,786:62612,858:63007,865:66483,926:67036,935:67747,952:69801,981:70591,994:70907,999:76884,1036:87143,1146:89015,1167:89717,1174:97142,1223:102245,1296:103460,1322:109368,1407:111208,1445:128550,1766:140959,1894:141267,1899:142114,1913:143269,1935:148659,2031:152060,2042:158048,2087:161990,2140:162374,2145:163142,2155:164360,2163:165270,2175:166544,2190:167454,2201:170548,2240:171731,2273:182975,2382:183425,2390:184625,2405:185375,2416:187175,2446:202640,2662:203060,2669:205930,2722:213294,2820:213897,2830:220262,2963:220530,2968:220798,2973:221200,2986:221535,2992:221870,2998:223545,3067:229160,3093:232175,3156:232644,3166:245042,3365:245504,3374:245768,3379:249332,3458:250982,3491:251444,3500:252896,3530:253358,3539:253622,3544:254480,3555:269615,3774:273881,3863:280280,3964:281544,3984:283361,4015:297470,4201$0,0:2695,28:3230,34:6975,86:8152,92:9008,101:9543,107:25600,324:31920,415:62454,813:66080,943:68522,1036:78246,1148:79925,1181:83648,1251:84305,1262:85692,1282:86349,1293:87371,1314:103688,1499:104150,1507:108168,1556:109962,1568:110400,1576:110692,1581:111933,1600:112590,1611:125070,1768:126060,1783:126510,1789:133058,1831:143130,1955:149223,2027:152728,2047:153160,2054:160216,2215:168628,2331:169648,2344:170532,2388:171144,2425:174816,2489:175088,2494:177536,2528:179168,2587:179780,2611:180528,2623:181208,2636:187124,2668:187454,2675:188312,2702:190688,2768:191216,2778:192338,2821:192866,2831:194846,2924:195110,2929:200970,2965
DAStories

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Slating of The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III's interview

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III lists his favorites

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III talks about his mother's family history

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III talks about his maternal grandparents

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III describes his maternal family's show business

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III talks about his maternal grandmother's civil rights work

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III reflects on the loss of grassroots organizing

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III recalls a political lesson learned from Adam Clayton Powell, Jr.

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III talks about the heritage of political organizing that originated in the African American community

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell III details his mother's educational achievements

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell III recalls his mother's political work

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III explains how his family combined activism with a legal strategy in their political work

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III talks about his father's early life and education

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III talks about his father's work for the NAACP

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III reflects on the legacy of his father's political career

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III describes his father's loyalty to the NAACP and the cause of civil rights

Tape: 7 Story: 3 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III recalls his early childhood memories of the Civil Rights Movement

Tape: 7 Story: 4 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III explains the value of political organizations

Tape: 7 Story: 5 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III talks about his elementary and junior high schools in Baltimore, Maryland

Tape: 7 Story: 6 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III recalls the sights, sounds and smells of growing up in Baltimore, Maryland

Tape: 7 Story: 7 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III remembers learning the similarity between the streets and the government

Tape: 8 Story: 1 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III describes his experience at Gonzaga College High School in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 8 Story: 2 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III lists his extracurricular activities at Gonzaga College High School in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 8 Story: 3 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III recalls his experience at Morgan State University in Baltimore, Maryland

Tape: 8 Story: 4 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III remembers the founding conference for SNCC in 1960 at Shaw University in Raleigh, North Carolina

Tape: 8 Story: 5 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III remembers Ella Baker

Tape: 8 Story: 6 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III talks about the split among black ministers regarding the Civil Rights Movement

Tape: 8 Story: 7 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III talks about his transition from treasurer of SNCC to his early political career in Baltimore, Maryland

Tape: 8 Story: 8 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III recalls his brother's assault in Annapolis, Maryland in 1963

Tape: 8 Story: 9 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III recalls his campaign and election to the Maryland State Legislature

Tape: 8 Story: 10 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III recalls his first year as a member of the Maryland House of Delegates

Tape: 8 Story: 11 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III talks about the origins of the March on Washington in 1963

Tape: 9 Story: 1 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III recalls the aftermath of the Selma to Montgomery March

Tape: 9 Story: 2 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III talks about the Freedom Summer of 1964

Tape: 9 Story: 3 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III talks about his political consultancy

Tape: 9 Story: 4 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III explains the difference between national and local politics

Tape: 9 Story: 5 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III describes his hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 9 Story: 6 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III talks about the disenfranchisement in Florida during the 2000 presidential election

Tape: 9 Story: 7 - The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III details his recommendations for politically organizing the African American community

DASession

2$2

DATape

5$7

DAStory

6$7

DATitle
The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III talks about his maternal grandmother's civil rights work
The Honorable Clarence Mitchell, III remembers learning the similarity between the streets and the government
Transcript
--I just want to talk about Lillie Mae Carroll Jackson--$$Lillie Mae Carroll.$$And she--her political organizing, and then your mother's [Juanita Elizabeth Jackson Mitchell] history, and then we'll get to your father [Clarence Maurice Mitchell, Jr.], and bring all that in.$$Sure. Well, my grandmother, Lillie Mae Carroll Jackson, was a patient at Johns Hopkins Hospital [Baltimore, Maryland]. And a doc went in for an operation, the doctor made a mistake and severed the mastoid muscle in her face. In order to cover up his mistake, he had wheeled her out to where the cadavers were and pronounced her dead. He left the hospital. An intern came by, and her arm moved. And the intern said, "Oh, this lady's still alive!" and had her wheeled back into the operating room. And she said, and used to say quite often, "As I lay on that operating table, I made a commitment to the Lord. I said, if you allow me to live, to raise my children, I will work for you on behalf of my people and I will serve the people." And that was her commitment on a hospital gurney after she had been pronounced dead and was given another chance at life. Her face was twisted and that's what it came from. So she, in raising her kids, also was involved in the community and that sort of thing. And then Dr. Carl [J.] Murphy, who was then the head of The Afro [Afro-American Company], met with her and asked her if she would revive the Baltimore [Maryland] branch of the NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People]. That it had been faltering, there was no activity. And he committed that, "If you'll take the leadership, I'll back you up with my newspaper, with The Afro. The Afro will be there for you." And she agreed to do that. And as a result, through her labor, she organized an NAACP branch in every county from the State of Maryland. She had--the Baltimore branch for many years was the largest branch in the country, even though there were other cities that had far greater black populations. She had a network of membership recruiters in every church, every community organization. And she would go tirelessly from church to church, checking in with the NAACP membership committee of the church, and our--now, most pastors, they don't want no outside committees raising money in the church. So for her to have been able to persuade so many pastors to have an official NAACP membership committee in the church was a tribute to her sales ability.$$Talk about that some. I think you talked about what her method was. There was a certain sweetness that she applied to these things and was able to get great results.$$Oh yes. She was always about sweetness. Like I said earlier, you know, she always told us, "It's nice to be nice." And she would say to us, when she wanted to get us to do something that we really didn't want to do, she done that grandma sweet-sugar "Come on over here. I gotta get you to do this." Well, she had that same kind of--not those exact words, but that's how she treated the pastors. She would say to the pastors, "Now, you know I need you on this. Now, we gotta put this in place." And, you know, she would play up to their egos. And those preachers, when my grandmother was finished with those preachers, boy, their chests would be sticking out they'd give her anything she wanted. My grandmother would go into churches on Sundays, I'm not talking about what somebody told me. She used to take us along with her. And she would go into churches. She would hit three or four churches a Sunday, and go right up to the front of the church, sit right up on the front row, get the pastor's attention, and eventually the pastor would say, "All right, now we have Dr. Lillie Jackson here. We're gonna give her about five minutes, Mrs. Jackson." And she would stand up, when she'd finish she'd have about ten, fifteen minutes but she had made her appeal for NAACP memberships, or made her appeal for attendance at a big rally, civil rights rally. My grandmother had thousands of people at her rallies. But it was hard work. A lot of folks want to sit back now and you know, issue a call through the media and expect people to show up.$One of my proudest days was being able to get the governor [of Maryland] to appoint a young district court judge, who happened to be the son of the number-two numbers-banker in the city [Baltimore, Maryland]. And when--I had heard comment, they were saying, "how could this boy be-?" Now, he had gotten his son through law school and all that sort of thing, you know, to be able to move up. And the comment among some of the district court judges was, "Old [HistoryMaker Clarence] Mitchell's [III] putting this numbers banker's son on the court." And so I spoke for his investiture, and in speaking for his investiture, I said, "I am very proud to be here to support the elevation of this young man, whose father was an entrepreneur in the tradition of the Kennedys." (Laughter) Of course, everybody knew what that meant. [President John Fitzgerald] Kennedy's old man [Joseph Patrick "Joe" Kennedy] was into illegal activities, and so his father [Patrick Joseph "P.J." Kennedy] had been, too. But in he was an "entrepreneur in the tradition of the Kennedys", and the chief district court judge was Irish, you know? Man, you coulda--it looked like I had shot him, when I said that. Because he was one of the biggest ones talking about this kid, should not because of what his father was about. And then the state ended up taking up numbers anyway and legalizing them and collected all the money. But, you know, those kinds--one of the things that--growing up in the environment I grew up in made me understand not to sit in judgement of what other people do. That in many instances in life, people are forced to do whatever they got to do in order to survive. And when I got into the political process, I really saw how white folks sit back pontificating on whether or not black folks are being--following the rules, and that sort of thing, when they make rules to accommodate their illegal activity. They, you know--they--if there's something that they want to do and it's not legal, they go ahead and pass laws to make it legal. And that's what the legislative process, I discovered, was. And I came back, everybody was saying to me, "Oh you're twenty-two years old. You can't deal with the weighty problems of a legislative body." And these were some of the older adults who were talking about me. But after two weeks in the House [Maryland House of Delegates], I came back to the community for one of our community meetings, I said, "Ah, I thought this was going to be some kind of--this ain't nothing but a street thing. And I came out of the streets, I can handle this." (Laughter). The legislative process is a street thing. You help me with what I want to get, I'll help you with what you want to get, and they're not sitting there thinking about the facts. They're not sitting there thinking about the impact. The bottom line is: they want to get what they want. If you can help them get what they want, then you'll get what you want.

William Taylor

Colonel William M. Taylor helped the U.S. military manage media scrutiny in times of crisis for twenty-seven years. Born on December 24, 1930, in St. Paul, Minnesota, Taylor's media savvy served him and his country well as the military officer responsible for public affairs support to the secretary of defense.

Taylor grew up in Muncie, Indiana, and earned a journalism degree from Indiana University in 1952. He entered the U.S. Air Force in 1953 and soon after began working in public information posts for the Air Force. During the Vietnam War, Taylor was a public information officer stationed in Saigon, Vietnam, and Bangkok, Thailand. When he returned to the United States, Taylor worked at the Pentagon, and in July 1977 became the director of defense information. During his tenure, Taylor helped manage publicity for the military on a number of sensitive issues, from missing nuclear bombs to returned prisoners of war to the failed Iranian hostage rescue.

After retiring in 1980, Taylor became a public affairs adviser to the American Petroleum Institute. He served as a contact person for media on the oil industry and helped manage public awareness for petroleum issues. For eight years, Taylor organized and managed the oil industry's annual crisis management and communications seminar. This expertise became invaluable in 1989, when Taylor went to Alaska to provide on-site assistance to Exxon in the aftermath of the Valdez oil spill. Beginning in 1996, Taylor ran Action Image, a public relations consultancy and sports photography enterprise. He also served as a public affairs emergency response reservist for the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

Taylor and his wife, Phyllis Moxley, had three children and three grandchildren.

Taylor passed away on September 14, 2019.

Colonel William M. Taylor was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on September 13, 2003.

Accession Number

A2003.241

Sex

Male

Interview Date

9/13/2003

Last Name

Taylor

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Middle Name

M.

Schools

Muncie Central High School

Indiana University

Boston University

McKinley Elementary School

Lake Elementary School

Wilson Junior High School

First Name

William

Birth City, State, Country

St. Paul

HM ID

TAY05

Favorite Season

Summer

State

Minnesota

Favorite Vacation Destination

Asia

Favorite Quote

Do ye next thing.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

District of Columbia

Birth Date

12/24/1930

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Washington

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Gumbo

Death Date

9/14/2019

Short Description

Federal government administrator and public relations manager William Taylor (1930 - 2019) served as the Director of Defense Information for the U.S. Army, and has worked as an advisor to the oil industry.

Employment

Department of Defense

American Petroleum Institute

Action Image

Favorite Color

Air Force Blue

Timing Pairs
0,0:12462,260:18855,278:20119,299:20435,304:23279,336:24306,350:24859,360:25412,373:26913,400:32025,426:32801,450:33189,456:34256,466:35323,484:35808,491:38427,527:38912,533:39785,541:40464,554:41628,570:45996,597:46716,609:47220,617:49812,667:51540,696:51900,702:55160,717:56960,743:58010,762:58535,772:58835,777:59735,795:60410,805:60710,811:61010,816:61460,823:61760,828:62060,833:62810,843:66935,915:67685,925:73172,946:73557,956:74404,968:75482,984:76098,993:76791,1003:79650,1018:83490,1125:84290,1141:88812,1169:89388,1176:91894,1184:93300,1206:93670,1212:94114,1220:94410,1225:95298,1242:95890,1254:99294,1320:99812,1329:101884,1359:102254,1366:103734,1389:104992,1404:113573,1493:118685,1571:120105,1594:120815,1605:121099,1610:121667,1620:130237,1703:132100,1726:133234,1744:135097,1784:135502,1790:139240,1815:140260,1833:140500,1838:141700,1865:141940,1870:149550,1988:154032,2035:154386,2042:155566,2069:157041,2110:160420,2133:160870,2139:162310,2162:163120,2172:167156,2195:167730,2203:168058,2208:168632,2216:169288,2229:170600,2250:171748,2269:189450,2419$0,0:7549,65:7945,70:9925,84:11806,110:12202,115:12994,125:16533,140:18237,171:20060,183:22403,217:23113,228:23397,233:23752,239:24036,244:24675,254:28752,290:29154,297:31231,340:31834,351:34830,384:35766,398:36054,403:36558,411:38646,431:39438,444:40230,456:41958,492:50415,597:50715,602:51015,607:51315,612:52665,632:53190,641:55420,658:56120,669:64035,782:68460,819:69900,840:72600,872:73320,881:77536,903:78256,916:79192,929:83800,1071:85168,1091:85600,1103:90640,1165:91288,1181:91666,1197:92530,1216:92962,1226:93934,1250:100168,1361:100948,1376:101572,1385:102820,1400:103756,1414:104458,1424:105316,1436:106330,1461:109776,1475:113088,1530:122920,1652:124740,1701:125715,1720:126365,1736:127210,1758:133455,1811:135630,1837:136239,1844:143387,1934:146413,2009:148193,2054:148549,2059:163780,2307:164100,2312:164420,2317:173280,2420:173976,2429:178585,2492:178963,2503:180034,2531:184870,2581:185422,2589:194954,2694:201730,2779
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of William Taylor interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - William Taylor's favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - William Taylor describes his father's background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - William Taylor describes his maternal grandfather and family background

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - William Taylor remembers his parents

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - William Taylor discusses changes of residence and race awareness during his childhood

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - William Taylor recalls his first awareness of racial differences

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - William Taylor shares memories of Minnesota, his childhood home

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - William Taylor remembers the Hallie Q. Brown Community Center, St. Paul, Minnesota

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - William Taylor recalls encounters with black celebrities in his youth

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - William Taylor discusses his childhood interests

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - William Taylor recalls his school days

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - William Taylor describes life in Muncie, Indiana in the 1940s

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - William Taylor recounts his entry into a new tough school in Muncie, Indiana

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - William Taylor discusses his early interest in the Third Reich

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - William Taylor discusses his interest in written communication

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - William Taylor discusses his high school activities

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - William Taylor remembers influential school figures

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - William Taylor discusses his college choices

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - William Taylor discusses his experiences as a journalism student at Indiana University

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - William Taylor recounts an event in his college track career

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - William Taylor recalls the start of his professional life

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - William Taylor discusses his search for a journalism job

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - William Taylor recounts his first overseas tours with the U.S. Air Force

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - William Taylor describes his experiences in the U.S. Air Force dealing with the press

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - William Taylor discusses public relations changes resulting from today's 'instant news'

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - William Taylor discusses his ventures in the public relations field

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - William Taylor discusses African Americans in the U.S. Air Force's public relations department

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - William Taylor shares his professional philosophy

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - William Taylor recalls his military travels in Southeast Asia

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - William Taylor recalls his PR involvement during catastrophic events in recent history

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - William Taylor preserves the stories of African Americans

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - William Taylor repeats a story from his friend Ernie Fears

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - William Taylor reflects on the state of the black community

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - William Taylor considers his legacy

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Photo - William Taylor, age ten, with two unidentified boys before a church outing, Omaha, Nebraska, 1940

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Photo - William Taylor and other military personnel at the 58th parallel separating North Korea and South Korea

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Photo - William Taylor in Omaha, Nebraska, early 1940s

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Photo - William Taylor at a Pearl Harbor memorial, Honolulu, Hawaii

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Photo - William Taylor on the set of an Air Force training film, ca. 1966

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Photo - William Taylor reading with his grandson, ca. 2000

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Photo - William Taylor, age five, at a birthday celebration, ca. 1935

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Photo - William Taylor's mother, 1920s

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - Photo - William Taylor at Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana, ca. 1948

Tape: 6 Story: 10 - Photo - William Taylor with a group of Japanese industrialists, early 1970s

Tape: 6 Story: 11 - Photo - William Taylor with other Muncie Central Bearcats players, Indiana, 1948

Tape: 6 Story: 12 - Photo - Co-captains of the Indiana University track team, 1952

Tape: 6 Story: 13 - Photo - William Taylor with U.S. Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird at a government ceremony in his honor, early 1970s

Tape: 6 Story: 14 - Photo - William Taylor in his official military photograph, ca. 1970

Tape: 6 Story: 15 - Photo - William Taylor with family members upon his retirement from the U.S. Air Force, 1980

Tape: 6 Story: 16 - Photo - William Taylor with future wife at a Indiana University Christmas formal, Bloomington, Indiana, 1952

Tape: 6 Story: 17 - Photo - William Taylor makes a one-handed shot, 1947

Tape: 6 Story: 18 - Photo - William Taylor at a daily meeting with the Director of Defense Information, the Pentagon, Washington, D.C., late 1970s

Tape: 6 Story: 19 - Photo - Col. William Taylor with Defense Department personnel, Southeast Asia, 1971

Tape: 6 Story: 20 - Photo - William Taylor informs U.S. Army Chief of Staff William Westmoreland of military information, ca. 1965

Tape: 6 Story: 21 - Photo - William Taylor's ancestors

Tape: 6 Story: 22 - Photo - William Taylor golfing, n.d.

Tape: 6 Story: 23 - Photo - William Taylor's daughters and their husbands, n.d.

Tape: 6 Story: 24 - Photo - William Taylor and Ray Connelly, Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, ca. 1989

Tape: 6 Story: 25 - Photo - William Taylor's grandmother and two unidentified women, ca. 1920s

Tape: 6 Story: 26 - Photo - William Taylor's grandfather, ca. 1930s

Tape: 6 Story: 27 - Photo - William Taylor's grandfather while working on the Great Northern Railroad, n.d.

Tape: 6 Story: 28 - Photo - William Taylor with his cousin, aunt and unidentified woman, n.d.

Tape: 6 Story: 29 - Photo - William Taylor and Myrtle Carden, ca. early 1930s

Tape: 6 Story: 30 - Photo - William Taylor and his mother, St. Paul, Minnesota, ca. 1930s

Tape: 6 Story: 31 - Photo - William Taylor and Myrtle Carden, St. Paul, Minnesota, ca. early 1930s

Tape: 6 Story: 32 - Photo - William Taylor featured in a 'Muncie Star' newspaper article, May 31, 1980

DASession

1$1

DATape

4$2

DAStory

8$6

DATitle
William Taylor recalls his military travels in Southeast Asia
William Taylor recounts his entry into a new tough school in Muncie, Indiana
Transcript
You served in the Defense Department [U.S. Department of Defense] in a similar capacity in the [President James 'Jimmy'] Carter Administration too, right? You served in the Pentagon?$$In--understand the operat--the news operations of the Pentagon. There is, there is the news department. And the news department has several, several branches, the Army, the Navy and the Marine Corps, the civilian representation, the audio visual, the same thing, Army, Navy, Air Force and there's still, still photography. And all of that comes under a manager, and that manager is called the, the chief, the director of defense information. Or to put it in laymen's terms, the chief, chief of the Pentagon press operation. My first tour in the, in the building, I was--I began, at that time they had the Southeast Asia, just having come from Southeast Asia, I was on the Southeast--I was the Air Force representative on the Southeast Asia desk. And then from that position, I moved up to the military assistant position. And when the [Secretary of Defense Melvin R.] Laird Administration [1969-1973] ended and that tour of duty was over, I went to Japan as the, as the senior public affairs representative of the Armed Forces, U.S. Forces Japan, in Japan. And then the second job, as you wore two hats, as they say, I was the chief of information for the fifth Air Force, which included all Air Force units in Japan, Okinawa [Japan] and Korea. Language-wise, I studied the Japanese language, spoke Japanese. When I was in Thailand, I spoke Thai. I always believed that you, that you, you know and understand more about the country you're in if you understand the language. And it does, it opens doors and opens, and gives you a recognition and a realization that--even though you don't speak well, you can still--and sometimes it's to your advantage not to speak too well because you throw, you throw your, your host off guard. But you have to speak well enough so that you can, you could understand what's being--and it's difficult to become proficient, but you should become proficient enough so that you can communicate in, in the local language. And we were fortunate enough to--Thai, I had trouble with because it's a tonal language, and I, you know, I can't sing anything on, on key. So, but as long as you keep things in context, you can, you can offset the, the inability to be accurate on your, on your tones.$Did you like Muncie [Indiana]?$$It's difficult to answer because very seldom do--my practice is to, you know, take things as they are. And situations that you are not in control of, that to, to view those situations negatively only makes that situation more difficult. So my practice has always been to try and deal with positives of the situation, regardless of, of, you know, the circumstances that brought about the negatives that exists, recognizing that there're always negatives, and recognizing that there're always positives. So if you dwell on those positives, in the long run, you'll just feel more comfortable and can make the best of whatever particular circumstances you're cast into.$$Okay, well, did you have to do that in Muncie (laughs)?$$Oh, yes (laughs). For example, I was told--they said that, that the really poor section of, outside the African American community was in, was right in the heart of the Wilson [now, Wilson Junior High School] area. It was called Shed Town. Shed Town was right--so they said, awe, that's a tough school, tough school, said, you'd better, you know, get ready. So I had a couple of weeks before I went to school, and not knowing, I mean this is gonna be a whole new adventure to me, so not knowing exactly what I was gonna be faced with, my mother [Alice Melker Taylor] had a sewing dummy. And I had read in 'Life' magazine about this new technique for defending yourself or fighting. It was called Jujitsu. And they had demonstrations of, of Jujitsu. And this was, this would have what? 1941 or '42 [1942], something like that, '42 maybe. So she had this sewing dummy. So I practiced with the sewing dummy. I'd grab it--I'd throw I around and toss it around, over my back and knew all the moves and everything. So I felt I was proficient in this new (laughs) unknown sport, Jujitsu. So on my first day in school, you know, I didn't know anyone, and so, you know, guys coming up, "Who are you?" And I told them who I was. " Where are you from?" I told them where I was from, "Moved here from Minnesota." I forgot and left out Nebraska. So they said, "Can you fight?" And I said, "Well, I don't, I don't box so good, but I'm a Jujitsu expert." And they said, "Oh, man (laughs), said, you don't want to mess with him, he's a--." So that then gave me a nickname. And no one ever tested my--I guess I was big enough so that, you know, as a, as a thirteen year old, you know, I'm 5 [feet] 10 [inches] or something. So people are just gonna take you at your word, you know. And so that then--in junior high school, that was nickname, 'JuJu'.$$'JuJu', after Jujitsu.$$Yeah, after Jujitsu. No one ever challenged it, but good thing, (laughs) cause I had never tried it except on that, on that sewing dummy.