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Thaddeus Mosley

Sculptor Thaddeus Gilmore Mosley was born on July 23, 1926 in New Castle, Pennsylvania. After graduating from high school, he enrolled in the U.S. Navy. Mosley graduated from the University of Pittsburgh with a double major in English and journalism in 1950.

Mosley began working for the U.S. Postal Service. During the 1950s, while at the Postal Service, Mosley began writing freelance for The Pittsburgh Courier and for several other national publications. At this time, he also began making sculptures. In 1968, he had his first solo exhibit at the Carnegie Museum of Art. He credits sculptors Constantin Bruncusi and Isamu Noguchi as his earliest influences. His commissions include, Three Rivers bench in 2003 for the David L. Lawrence Convention Center; Legends at the Susquehanna Museum; and an exhibition at the Cue Art Foundation Gallery. His most famous sculptures are the 14’ cedar Phoenix located at the corner of Centre Avenue and Dinwiddie in Pittsburgh’s Hill District and the “Mountaintop” Limestone at the Martin Luther King, Jr. Library in the Hill District at Herron and Milwaukee Streets.

Mosley wrote Thaddeus Mosley: African-American Sculptor with a narrative by David Lewis that was published by the Carnegie Museum of Art in 1997.

Mosley was named the Artist of the Year and was awarded the Governor’s Award, the Cultural Award, and the Service in the Arts Award by the Pittsburgh Center of the Arts. Mosley has been an officer for the Pittsburgh Society of Sculptors and a board member of the August Wilson Center for African American Culture.

Mosley was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on August 11, 2008.

Accession Number

A2008.102

Sex

Male

Interview Date

8/11/2008

Last Name

Mosley

Maker Category
Occupation
Organizations
Schools

University of Pittsburgh

West Side Elementary School

New Castle Junior/Senior High School

George Washington Intermediate School

Search Occupation Category
First Name

Thaddeus

Birth City, State, Country

New Castle

HM ID

MOS05

Favorite Season

Fall

State

Pennsylvania

Favorite Vacation Destination

New York, New York

Favorite Quote

There's No Vice Like Advice.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Pennsylvania

Birth Date

7/23/1926

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Pittsburgh

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Seafood

Short Description

Sculptor Thaddeus Mosley (1926 - ) created pieces that were commissioned by Pittsburgh cultural institutions like the David L. Lawrence Convention Center, the Susquehanna Museum and the Cue Art Foundation Gallery.

Employment

United States Postal Service

U.S. Navy

Pittsburgh Courier

Favorite Color

Blue, Green

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Thaddeus Mosley's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Thaddeus Mosley lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Thaddeus Mosley describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Thaddeus Mosley talks about his mother's upbringing and employment

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Thaddeus Mosley remembers his maternal great-grandfather

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Thaddeus Mosley describes his father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Thaddeus Mosley remembers his paternal aunt

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Thaddeus Mosley talks about his father's literary interests

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Thaddeus Mosley recalls how his parents met

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Thaddeus Mosley describes his parents' personalities and activities

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Thaddeus Mosley describes the No. 5 Mine community in Elbon, Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Thaddeus Mosley recalls his family's move from Elbon, Pennsylvania to New Castle, Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Thaddeus Mosley describes his earliest childhood memories

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Thaddeus Mosley describes the sights and smells of his childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Thaddeus Mosley recalls his early educational experiences

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Thaddeus Mosley remembers segregation in New Castle, Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Thaddeus Mosley describes his early interest in drawing

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Thaddeus Mosley recalls his early musical interests

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Thaddeus Mosley talks about his high school activities

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Thaddeus Mosley remembers the servicemen at Naval Station Great Lakes in Lake County, Illinois

Tape: 2 Story: 11 - Thaddeus Motley recalls the African American athletes he met in the U.S. Navy, pt. 1

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Thaddeus Mosley recalls the African American athletes he met in the U.S. Navy, pt. 2

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Thaddeus Mosley talks about segregation in the U.S. Armed Forces

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Thaddeus Mosley remembers his neighbor who wrote Western fiction

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Thaddeus Mosley recalls his experiences in the U.S. Navy

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Thaddeus Mosley remembers coaching basketball in the U.S. Navy

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Thaddeus Mosley talks about the Japanese holdouts after World War II

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Thaddeus Mosley recalls his experiences of segregation in restaurants

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Thaddeus Mosley remembers enrolling at the University of Pittsburgh in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Thaddeus Mosley talks about the economy in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, pt. 1

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Thaddeus Mosley talks about the economy in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, pt. 2

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Thaddeus Mosley remembers the Pittsburgh Courier

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Thaddeus Mosley recalls his interest in magazine journalism

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Thaddeus Mosley talks about his various occupations

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Thaddeus Mosley describes his early career at the U.S. Post Office Department

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Thaddeus Mosley talks about the Nunn family

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Thaddeus Mosley remembers photographer Charles "Teenie" Harris

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Thaddeus Mosley describes the development of his artistic interests

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Thaddeus Mosley talks about his early sculptures

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Thaddeus Mosley recalls the theft of his sculpture of Dizzy Gillespie

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Thaddeus Mosley talks about the concepts of weight and space in sculpture

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Thaddeus Mosley describes his work schedule

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Thaddeus Mosley recalls his early art exhibitions

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Thaddeus Mosley describes his interest in African tribal art

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Thaddeus Mosley talks about the Black Arts Movement

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Thaddeus Mosley describes his sculpting materials and process

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Thaddeus Mosley talks about the dearth of wood carving instruction

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - Thaddeus Mosley compares wood carving to jazz composition

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Thaddeus Mosley talks about playwright August Wilson

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Thaddeus Mosley describes the diversity of his sculptures

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Thaddeus Mosley reflects upon his career as a sculptor

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Thaddeus Mosley talks about the importance of education

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Thaddeus Mosley recalls his exhibition opportunities

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Thaddeus Mosley describes the origin of the Pittsburgh Crawfords

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Thaddeus Mosley remembers the Negro League baseball players of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Thaddeus Mosley reflects upon his life

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - Thaddeus Mosley describes his hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Thaddeus Mosley reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - Thaddeus Mosley describes how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 7 Story: 3 - Thaddeus Mosley narrates his photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

4$5

DAStory

9$3

DATitle
Thaddeus Mosley describes the development of his artistic interests
Thaddeus Mosley talks about the concepts of weight and space in sculpture
Transcript
So you would develop--you'd write your story, develop your own photos--$$Um-hm.$$--and get 'em over there [to the Pittsburgh Courier; New Pittsburgh Courier] (laughter).$$Yeah.$$That took twenty hours a week, right?$$Yeah.$$So, so now how did--now when did you start doing artwork? Now what, what inspired you to do artwork?$$Well growing--I've always liked art, you know. And one time when I was young I thought I'd like to be a painter, you know like most people think about stuff. But by going to Carnegie [Carnegie Museum of Art, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania] and stuff, but what really propelled me was in the early '50s [1950s] when the Scandinavian, Scandinavian designs first came out, well I bought some of the furniture, and all the brochures had--and also the photo display, furniture displays, they had decorative sculpture, birds and fish and stuff. So I decided I could do that and I started making some of my own. And then I got really reading about Brancusi [Constantin Brancusi] and I never--I didn't know who Brancusi was. I didn't know what African art was. But I was taking a class in Western civilization and I guess in my sophomore year, might have been my junior year. And I don't know if you know Horace Parlan, the piano player. He's very--he lives in Denmark, but he played with Mingus [Charles Mingus] and played with Lou Dawes [ph.]. He played with a lot of people. But he was at Pitt [University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania] the same time I was and we were in the same class. And we were looking at taking this class and they were talking about African art influence on Brancusi. The first time I'd ever really noticed an African art. And that became one of my big influences insofar as art was concerned. But doing art was when I decided to make some of my own decorative stuff from looking at the Scandinavian displays. And I bought Scandinavian art in the early '50s [1950s].$$Okay. So Brancusi was influenced by African sculpture.$$Yeah, yeah.$$And you know, I think a lot of people have heard this, Picasso [Pablo Picasso] was actually influenced by African art too.$$Well, Picasso--painting, but, but sculpture wise, Brancusi, Jacques Lipchitz. Everyone from around that period where African tribal art was what really turned in my mind, the Western art, totally around, you know, was the, the big catalyst.$When you started sculpting, I mean how long did it take you to, I guess get to the style you pres- I mean--or I might, I might be being presumptuous here, but do you have like a style that you developed?$$Yeah.$$And when did you develop your signature style of sculpting?$$Well I would imagine I didn't get to where I am now 'til about in, in, in the, in the late, in the '60s [1960s]. I had a show at the Carnegie [Carnegie Museum of Art, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania] in '68 [1968]. So the idea of the weight and space philosophy, I didn't do that 'til the late '60s [1960s] I would imagine.$$Okay, so you call it the weight and space.$$Weight and space. It's a spatial concept where the thing may look like it's floating; the heaviest part is up and not down. So it's just called weight and space.$$So these, these pieces are I take it they're balanced where they--$$Well they're fitted together and then there, and there, there's some balance, yeah.$$I mean I, what I'm getting at is what makes 'em stay up if they look like they're kind of off, you know?$$Well they have a center of gravity and, and they're either pinned or fitted so that they're stable, you know. And they have a broad enough base that it, it, it supports, it supports.$$Okay. Now do you, did you develop that concept yourself?$$No, it is, it is a rather common concept, but just done in different ways, you know. It's like if you want to say in jazz, swing there's not just one swing, although say like Armstrong [Louis Armstrong] was like the first great swing and everything set the style for swing and also style for solo style. But there's a lot of other styles beyond you know, what Armstrong 'course got from Pittsburgh [Pennsylvania]. Eldridge, they called Little Jazz, came--patterned himself after--$$Roy Eldridge?$$Roy, Roy Eldridge. He was a north sider, not too far from here he lived. And then Dizzy, Dizzy Gillespie copied, patterned himself off of Roy Eldridge. So that--you have that. So it isn't just a one--a one id- one idea of a concept there; it can be many ideas that spring from. There's a lot of people that do weight and space. Particularly Brancusi [Constantin Brancusi], weight and space (simultaneous).$$(Simultaneous) So is it analogous to jazz in the sense that--$$Not really. The, the, the only analogy to jazz would be the people who are more--that improvise more in art. They don't do models, they just may start with an idea. And of course there's a lot of artists that name the things from jazz, but you know, it, it's more a, as I say, like Stuart Davis, (unclear), there's a book called 'Seeing Jazz' ['Seeing Jazz: Artists and Writers on Jazz'], and it's a lot of artists from every stripe down to people like Raymond Saunders, [HistoryMaker] Sam Gilliam and, and there's people that painted or sculpted with, with, with maybe rhythmic or feeling of jazz and so forth, you know.$$Now do you, do you--well I heard that you actually sculpt with music on. You play with music (simultaneous).$$(Simultaneous) Not often, no.$$Oh, you don't? Okay.$$Because I don't know, I play, I play music before I start working. But once I start working, I don't hear anything because it's a pounding sound (laughter). You're not gonna listen to music while hammering--hitting a mallet and hitting a, hitting a, using a mallet to hit a gauge or a chisel, no.

Vivian D. Hewitt

Art lover and librarian Vivian Hewitt was born on February 17, 1920, in New Castle, Pennsylvania. Hewitt was the fourth of five children, her elder siblings all born in North Carolina. Her father, Arthur, was a skilled laborer, and her mother, Lela, worked as a teacher and housewife. After completing high school, Hewitt attended Geneva College in Beaver Falls, Pennsylvania, where she earned a B.A. in 1943. The following year, she graduated from Carnegie-Mellon University in Pittsburgh with an M.S. in library science. She attended the University of Pittsburgh for further graduate studies in 1947 and 1948. Geneva awarded her an honorary degree in 1978.

Hewitt began her career working in libraries in 1944, when she was hired by the Carnegie Library in Pittsburgh as the senior assistant librarian. Relocating to Atlanta in 1949, Hewitt took a position as a librarian and instructor at Atlanta University's School of Library and Information Science. Hewitt and her husband, John, had a son in 1952, and Hewitt returned to work in 1954 as a researcher for Crowell-Collier Publishing. Hewitt joined the Rockefeller Foundation in 1956, and in 1963 she was hired by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace to serve as chief librarian. She remained there until her retirement in 1983. Since then, she has served on the Council on Foreign Relations and on the faculty of the University of Texas at Austin.

A lover of travel, Hewitt and her husband began buying works of art wherever they would go, and gave them as gifts on special occasions. They began their collection in earnest by collecting Haitian art for fifteen years. Living near and knowing many of the African American artists from New York, they began to collect their works, as well. In recent years, the collection, considered one of the finest of African American art in the world, was bought by Bank of America and given as a gift to the Afro-American Cultural Center in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Hewitt is also active in other areas, serving on the Board of Governors of the Laymen's Club of the Episcopal Church of the Diocese of New York, and has served as the secretary of the board of the Graham Windham Child Care & Adoption Agency. She has also received the Distinguished Service Award of the Black Caucus of the American Library Association and has been inducted into the Hall of Fame of the Special Library Association.

Accession Number

A2003.136

Sex

Female

Interview Date

6/18/2003

Last Name

Hewitt

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Middle Name

D.

Organizations
Schools

Martin Gantz School

North Street School

George Washington Intermediate School

New Castle Junior/Senior High School

Geneva College

Search Occupation Category
Speakers Bureau

Yes

Speakers Bureau Availability

Any

First Name

Vivian

Birth City, State, Country

New Castle

HM ID

HEW01

Speakers Bureau Preferred Audience

Flexible - Any age - the joy of collecting (African American) Art

Speakers Bureau Honorarium

Yes - $500 - $1,000

Favorite Season

Spring

Speaker Bureau Notes

Honorarium Specifics: plus travel and lodging expenses

Preferred Audience: Flexible - Any age - the joy of collecting (African American) Art

State

Pennsylvania

Favorite Vacation Destination

Caribbean, Italy, Paris, France

Favorite Quote

That's Absolutely Right.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

New York

Birth Date

2/17/1920

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

New York

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Chicken

Short Description

Art collector and librarian Vivian D. Hewitt (1920 - ) served as the chief librarian at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace until 1983. She and her husband also collect artwork, especially Haitian art, and in recent years, the collection, considered one of the finest of African American art in the world, was bought by Bank of America and given as a gift to the Afro-American Cultural Center in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Employment

Carnegie Library

Atlanta University

Crowell-Collier Publishing

Rockefeller Foundation

Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

University of Texas, Austin

Council on Foreign Relations

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Vivian Hewitt's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Vivian Hewitt lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Vivian Hewitt describes her maternal family history

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Vivian Hewitt talks about her extended family which includes HistoryMaker Melvin L. Watt and Karen Grigsby Bates

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Vivian Hewitt talks about her father, Arthur Davidson, pt.1

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Vivian Hewitt talks about her father, Arthur Davidson pt.2

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Vivian Hewitt describes her mother, Lela Mauney Davidson

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Vivian Hewitt describes how her parents met

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Vivian Hewitt continues to describe her mother, Lela Mauney Davison

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Vivian Hewitt describes the sights, sounds, and smells of her childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Vivian Hewitt describes the town of New Castle, Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Vivian Hewitt describes her grade school years

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Vivian Hewitt talks about her early interest in Haiti

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Vivian Hewitt talks about her favorite teachers in grade school

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Vivian Hewitt describes her experience at New Castle High School

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Vivian Hewitt talks about the influence of the A.M.E. Church on her social life and formation

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Vivian Hewitt talks about Youngstown, Ohio and her decision to attend Geneva College in Beaver Falls, Pennsylvania

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Vivian Hewitt talks about Geneva College in Beaver Falls, Pennsylvania

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Vivian Hewitt describes her experience at Geneva College in Beaver Falls, Pennsylvania

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Vivian Hewitt talks about her son's education at Geneva College in Beaver Falls, Pennsylvania

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Vivian Hewitt describes her admission to the Carnegie Institute of Technology in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Vivian Hewitt describes her training as a librarian and her work practicum in New York City

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Vivian Hewitt talks about her library work in the Hill District of Pittsburgh

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Vivian Hewitt talks about the Pittsburgh Courier and her social activities in the Hill District

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Vivian Hewitt talks about working in Harlem and Pittsburgh's reputation as the "Smoky City"

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Vivian Hewitt describes her work practicum in Harlem

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Vivian Hewitt talks about her experiences of racial discrimination

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Vivian Hewitt talks about Pittsburgh's Homewood neighborhood and August Wilson

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Vivian Hewitt describes how she became a librarian at Atlanta University

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Vivian Hewitt talks about meeting her husband, John Hewitt

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Vivian Hewitt talks about Charles "Teenie" Harris, her wedding photographer

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Vivian Hewitt talks about HistoryMaker Evelyn Cunningham at the Pittsburgh Courier

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Vivian Hewitt talks about the numbers game in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Vivian Hewitt talks about baseball in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Tape: 4 Story: 10 - Vivian Hewitt describes her experience in Atlanta, Georgia while teaching at Atlanta University

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Vivian Hewitt talks about her initial interest in special libraries

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Vivian Hewitt talks about working at Crowell-Collier Publishing Company

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Vivian Hewitt talks about her appointment at the Rockefeller Foundation

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Vivian Hewitt talks about Dean Rusk and working at the Rockefeller Foundation

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Vivian Hewitt describes her introduction to the Rockefeller Foundation's partnering librarians

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Vivian Hewitt talks about her work at the Agricultural Library of the Rockefeller Foundation in Mexico City, Mexico

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Vivian Hewitt talks about Mexico and HistoryMaker Elizabeth Catlett

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Vivian Hewitt talks about Mexican artists and Dolores del Rio

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Vivian Hewitt talks about Mexican influences in the art of Jean Charlot

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Vivian Hewitt talks about her job at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Vivian Hewitt talks about training aspiring diplomats at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Vivian Hewitt talks about meeting Brian Urquhart and Robert Rhodes James

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Vivian Hewitt talks about her professional life after retiring in 1983

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Vivian Hewitt talks about the Hewitt Collection and becoming president of the New York Chapter of the Special Libraries Association

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Vivian Hewitt talks about facing challenges as the national president of the Special Libraries Association

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - Vivian Hewitt talks about the death of the executive director of the Special Libraries Association, Frank McKenna

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Vivian Hewitt talks about the death of Frank McKenna, executive director of the Special Libraries Association

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - Vivian Hewitt talks about the appointment of David Bender as the head of SLA

Tape: 7 Story: 3 - Vivian Hewitt talks about her legacy at the Special Libraries Association

Tape: 7 Story: 4 - Vivian Hewitt talks about the Bank of America's acquisition of the Hewitt Collection

Tape: 7 Story: 5 - Vivian Hewitt talks about the touring Hewitt Collection, pt.1

Tape: 7 Story: 6 - Vivian Hewitt talks about the touring Hewitt Collection, pt.2

Tape: 7 Story: 7 - Vivian Hewitt talks about the black aesthetic and how she chose pieces for the Hewitt Collection

Tape: 7 Story: 8 - Vivian Hewitt describes her hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 7 Story: 9 - Vivian Hewitt reflects upon her legacy

Tape: 7 Story: 10 - Vivian Hewitt talks about how she would like to be remembered

Tape: 7 Story: 11 - Vivian Hewitt talks about the importance of oral history

Tape: 8 Story: 1 - Vivian Hewitt narrates her photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$6

DAStory

2$1

DATitle
Vivian Hewitt describes the town of New Castle, Pennsylvania
Vivian Hewitt talks about Mexican artists and Dolores del Rio
Transcript
When the Depression came, and they reduced their staffs, then my cousin became the chauffer-butler for the same family. And my father [Arthur Davidson] worked in a, in the Lawrence Club, the private club and then later became a skilled laborer in one of the mills and--because by this time he had bought his home, reared his family, and didn't want to uproot them to, to move. And Depression was on, but those rich families lived very, very well. And of course they networked with other rich families from Ohio, from Cleveland, Ohio, from Pittsburgh [Pennsylvania]. One family had a square block for their two homes, and they gave that, their homes to the city of New Castle [Pennsylvania], and now they are the arts and cultural center. And I went up some years ago to, to a mu--to see an art show there. They had a ballroom. They, they just had everything. They had about an acre of land where they had a gar--a full-time gardener who grew their vegetables, their flowers. But there were, there were a number of families like that. But the town--oh, and then the Italian people over the years got educated and came into the ascendency and became politically savvy, so there was an Italian mayor at least 30, 40 years ago. But the Jewish population had shrunk. They used to have two synagogues; they only have one. And for many years my optometrist was a Jewish man originally from New York who, who was also a personal friend, and, and I see him when I go home. And they, their, their two sons have, have left because there's not much to keep them there. And New Castle has actually become a bedroom community for Pittsburgh, which is just 50 miles away. The highways are very good. You can tool down the highway in, in an hour. And Pittsburgh is thriving. And Pittsburgh, which used to be steel and mill--the mills and everything--is now high tech. Education is the hu--biggest employer, and then the hospitals, and then technology. Those are the three main industries, so a lot of the people from New Castle, many of them, commute to, to, to Pittsburgh to work.$$Now, when, when you were a little girl growing up in New Castle, was there--was the black community separate? Was it a separate black community, or were people scattered around, and, and were, were, were the steel mills close by? Could you smell the mills and all--$$No, no, no, we, we didn't live near the mills. They--you had to--'cause my mother [Lela Mauney Davidson] would drive the men to, to, to work. No, we didn't live near them. Some people did, some who would come up from, from Alabama and Georgia. But the black people lived--there was a heavier concentration in First Ward and, and the Sixth Ward, but they were--there were some families who were scattered about on the south side and the east side, and even a few on the north side, which was the posh section of the city. I go back now and they live anywhere they got the money, you know.$$So did your family live near the family that your, that, that, that, that, that your father worked for, or did you (simultaneous)--$$We lived, we lived about a mile away, and we lived on the, on the same street. We all knew each other. We had fun growing up. It was a mixed neighborhood. I grew up in a neighborhood of African Americans, Italian Protestants, and Irish Catholic. And we were all friendly, and we were in and out of each other's homes. And the Italian family across the street, if my mother was sick, Mrs. Perilla (ph.) would, would make Italian soup and spaghetti and bring over to us. And she baked bread in an outdoor oven, and it smelled heavenly. And the Irish Catholic family who lived down the street took her--they had the same doctor, country doctor, and they would drive to--we were very, very friendly. So we, we--and that was true with the, with all of my--all of us who lived on, on, on the street, on the hill. We were just about five doors from the church too, so we spent Sundays in church.$So we're wrapping up the trip to Mexico.$$Yeah.$$All right, so what happened--what was the highlight in the trip to Mexico you think?$$Oh, getting to see the Mexican artists. You know, when, when John [Hewitt] and I married in 1949 we got some money as wedding presents, and we honeymooned here in New York. And remember I told you we had a faculty suite, so we went to the Metropolitan Museum, the Museum of Modern Art, and in Pittsburgh [Pennsylvania], to the Carnegie. And we brought good prints, and we took them back to Atlanta [Georgia], had them framed, and hung them in our suite. We wanted it decorated as, as, as cozy and as nice as possible. But we were always on the same wavelength as far as art was concerned. And the paintings that we bought, we bought Orozco's "Zapatistas". And we bought a Picasso still life, and a Brach still life, and (unclear)--(unclear). But I like the Mexican paintings. And in Mexico, I got to see in, in Cuernavaca, the murals that Diego Rivera had done-- was very privileged because our experi--agricultural experimental station for the Rockefeller foundation was at Chapingo, which was a little suburb from Mexico City. And in the chapel at Chapingo, Orozco had done beautiful, beautiful murals. And this is off the tourist beat, so I had--was privileged to see those. But everywhere I went I saw wonderful paintings. And then this journalist-lawyer friend of Langston Hughes introduced me to some of his friends. And one of them was--depending on to whom you talked, she was either the greatest patron of the arts or the greatest courtesan in Mexico City. Her father had been a general under Pancho Villa in the Mexican Revolution. And she was married to one of Manuel's classmates, another lawyer, who was much younger than she. And they lived in El Pedregal, which was a very rich, very lovely section of Mexico City. And Manuel took me out to her home, and she was living in the little cottage while the big house was being built. And then a couple of years later I went back and it was--she had been sculpted and painted by every one of the famous painters in Mexico City by Tamayo, by Siqueiros, by Orozco, by all of them. And all of these paintings were there, so I said to her, I said, do you mind? She said oh, Vivian, this is just a small house. There are only two bedrooms. But what a house. The guest house was their library. So I said do you mind if I take pictures? She said oh, take all you want. So I said, (unclear) where are you going to leave your paintings? She left them to the Mexican government (unclear), and the books, she left to the library in Oaxaca. But her name was Maria Asunsolo [Dolores del Rio]. So that was one of the highlights of--a really true highlight of my Mexican experience. And she was very close friends to Nelson Rockefeller and his first wife [Mary Rockefeller]. And--but she thought that because I worked at Rockefeller Foundation that, that maybe I was one of them, ha--had news for her (laughter). But she had a lovely, lovely place in El Pedregal. What else did I like in Mexico? I liked--this is 1958. This is a Spanish country, and women do not go about alone, okay. But I had to eat, so I made it a habit to take my main meal of the day in a Mexican restaurant. And Manuel wanted to improve his English, and I wanted to learn a little bit of cocktail Spanish. So he would come and accompany me most times to a restaurant with his dictionary, and we would sit there and eat, you know. So I ate in all the really good restaurants. I was living in the Zona Rosa. Then occasionally friends would be visiting in Mexico, and I would have dinner out with them. Other times, I just stayed at the, at the hotel, 'cause I was just a block or two from the, from the office. But I, I had a wonderful time. I appreciated Mexican culture, mainly Mexican art, loved it.