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Patricia Turner

Civil rights pioneer and educator Patricia Turner was born on October 11, 1944 in Norfolk, Virginia. Her father, James Turner, was a Navy Master Chief Petty Officer. Her brother, James Turner Jr., was two years younger than her and also a member of The Norfolk 17. In 1959, five years after Brown v. Board of Education, Turner and her brother entered Norview Junior High School, a previously all-white school. The siblings were two of the five students who attended Norview Junior High that year. After finishing eighth grade, Turner went to Norview High School where she graduated near the top of her class of over 400 seniors. She worked as a nurse before moving to Pennsylvania where she worked for the Thomas Jefferson Hospital. She then moved back to Virginia and worked for Dr. Robert Johnson, a pediatrician.

She continued her education and attended Norfolk State University where she earned her B.S. degree in mathematics. She also received her M.S. degree in education from Old Dominion University and took classes toward a Ph.D. degree at the College of William and Mary. After obtaining her undergraduate degree, Turner began working for Norfolk Public Schools as a math teacher, teaching curriculum to sixth and seventh graders. She taught until her retirement in 2008. However, that same year she became the Director of Oakwood Academy. In 2009, she along with the other surviving members of the Norfolk 17 returned to Norview High School to celebrate the 50th anniversary of “massive resistance.”

For her work as an educator, she received many accolades, including her Honorary Doctorate in humane letters from Old Dominion University. She also received the School Bell Award in Education in 2000 and 2002. Turner is a member of the Black Press Hall of Fame.

Patricia Turner was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on May 14, 2010.

Accession Number

A2010.022

Sex

Female

Interview Date

5/14/2010

Last Name

Turner

Maker Category
Organizations
Schools

Norview Middle School

Norview High School

Norfolk State University

Old Dominion University

The College of William & Mary

First Name

Patricia

Birth City, State, Country

Norfolk

HM ID

TUR06

Favorite Season

Spring

State

Virginia

Favorite Vacation Destination

Bahamas

Favorite Quote

Education Is The Key To Success.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

District of Columbia

Birth Date

10/11/1944

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Washington

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Carrots

Short Description

Middle school teacher Patricia Turner (1944 - ) was a member of the Norfolk 17, who were instrumental in the desegregation of Virginia and the South.

Employment

Norfolk Public Schools

Oakwood Academy

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
0,0:5418,89:6075,100:6440,106:9798,171:10236,181:19257,290:19719,297:21182,328:22337,349:29926,425:39456,554:41230,567:42166,583:42598,590:43318,601:43894,641:65937,902:71336,942:79490,1042:83250,1119:90661,1179:91073,1184:93545,1223:99760,1297:101545,1328:109620,1422:110790,1446:116031,1515:116584,1523:119349,1560:119665,1565:131924,1772:133580,1799:134040,1805:146052,2004:146420,2009:147984,2075:151388,2134:157020,2259:160524,2302:160820,2307:161264,2315:166185,2374:172863,2474:188170,2671:188450,2676:189150,2694:197199,2804:201246,2848:201654,2855:201994,2861:210088,2999:210458,3006:224774,3184:227959,3249:245558,3536:246662,3559:253060,3633:253620,3642:254420,3661:259700,3751:260180,3807:278760,4015$0,0:9080,128:9752,136:16162,234:16504,254:18841,299:19183,306:23256,387:23768,396:24216,405:24664,413:26735,424:44370,624:48850,789:62975,909:64080,927:65185,945:67140,972:72202,1030:73150,1052:73545,1058:87766,1232:88281,1238:95280,1284:95616,1289:95952,1294:98136,1345:110412,1460:111193,1519:117404,1571:121094,1641:137285,1856:146227,1902:146859,1911:147175,1916:151358,1988:156468,2030:161118,2079:164924,2123:168800,2193:169104,2198:169408,2203:174653,2295:175175,2303:178220,2353:179873,2383:180917,2408:181787,2427:182135,2432:184919,2471:195530,2612:197290,2639:198010,2654:203210,2737:207458,2794:209430,2833:210042,2846:215770,2885:216400,2920:218430,2934
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Patricia Turner's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Patricia Turner lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Patricia Turner describes her mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Patricia Turner describes her mother's upbringing

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Patricia Turner talks about her father's name

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Patricia Turner describes her family's relation to Nat Turner

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Patricia Turner talks about the history of Nat Turner

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Patricia Turner remembers her father's career in the U.S. Navy

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Patricia Turner lists her siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Patricia Turner describes her earliest childhood memories

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Patricia Turner remembers segregation in Norfolk, Virginia

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Patricia Turner describes her parents' personalities and who she takes after

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Patricia Turner recalls her early education

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Patricia Turner remembers Oakwood Elementary School in Norfolk, Virginia

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Patricia Turner describes her paternal grandmother, pt. 1

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Patricia Turner describes her paternal grandmother, pt. 2

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Patricia Turner talks about her sheltered upbringing

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Patricia Turner remembers her decision to join the Norfolk 17

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Patricia Turner remembers recalls the tests to join the Norfolk 17

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Patricia Turner remembers attending school at First Baptist Bute Street in Norfolk, Virginia

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Patricia Turner recalls the Norfolk 17's training by the NAACP

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Patricia Turner remembers the walk to Norview Junior High School in Norfolk, Virginia, pt. 1

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Patricia Turner remembers the walk to Norview Middle School in Norfolk, Virginia, pt. 2

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Patricia Turner recalls the traumatic effect of the protests against the Norfolk 17

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Patricia Turner remembers her high school homeroom teacher

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Patricia Turner talks about Hal J. Bonney, Jr., pt. 1

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Patricia Turner talks about Hal J. Bonney, Jr., pt. 2

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Patricia Turner remembers the janitor at Norview High School in Norfolk, Virginia

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Patricia Turner recalls her black classmates at Norview High School in Norfolk, Virginia

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Patricia Turner remembers the kindness of the African American cafeteria workers at Norview High School

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Patricia Turner recalls how her fellow students treated her at Norview High School, pt. 1

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Patricia Turner recalls how her fellow students treated her at Norview High School, pt. 2

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Patricia Turner remembers her social interactions with the Norfolk 17

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Patricia Turner recalls a high school class reunion, pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Patricia Turner recalls a high school class reunion, pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Patricia Turner remembers her time on Norview High School field hockey team

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Patricia Turner recalls her struggles after high school, pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Patricia Turner recalls her struggles after high school, pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Patricia Turner describes her nursing career in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Patricia Turner talks about the psychological effects of her high school experiences

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Patricia Turner remembers ending her career in nursing

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Patricia Turner describes her teaching career

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Patricia Turner talks about her philosophy of education

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Patricia Turner describes her speaking engagements

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Patricia Turner reflects upon her life

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Patricia Turner describes her hopes for the African American community

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Patricia Turner reflects upon her legacy

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Patricia Turner talks about her family

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Patricia Turner describes how she would like to be remembered

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Patricia Turner narrates her photographs, pt. 1

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - Patricia Turner narrates her photographs, pt. 2

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$4

DAStory

4$7

DATitle
Patricia Turner remembers the walk to Norview Middle School in Norfolk, Virginia, pt. 2
Patricia Turner recalls how her fellow students treated her at Norview High School, pt. 2
Transcript
When we got there--when I was young, I used to think it was the [U.S.] Army, because the street was lined with these men with rifles on their shoulders and dressed all in black. I thought it was the Army. Later on as I got older, I found out that was the city police. Because behind the police were white parents, more white people than I'd ever seen at one place, except on the base. So, I didn't have any fear of them, because that was the only time I'd ever seen them all together was on the base. So, I just figured they was there. Well, they were there. This was when I really understood what massive resistance meant. Massive resistance meant the masses resist these seventeen children. Well, there were only five of us. We were, I had had a birthday, so I had just turned fourteen, with the mind of a twelve year old, because I was very naive. I wasn't a fourteen year old, a normal fourteen year old. My brother was only thirteen. The others, they were twelve and thirteen. And because I was born October 11 instead of October 1, they made me wait a whole year, because that was cut off time for school. So I was older, but yet, I was younger. I reached back quickly and grabbed my brother's hand, because instantly the white people started throwing things. You see, the police were there to make sure that they did not have big sticks, but they could throw all them little ones they wanted to. They could throw little rocks, but they couldn't throw stones. So, this was when I realized massive resistance meant the masses resist. They were throwing all kinds of things and saying all kinds of words. And I remember my mother [Marjorie Harrison Turner] said I was the oldest, so I was supposed to watch out for my brother. The two boys were walking behind us, and the three girls were in the front. I was the oldest, so I was in the middle. But I was holding my brother's hand, and I was squeezing his little hand so tightly. But we kept going. We had to walk past the high school [Norview High School, Norfolk, Virginia], and that's where most of the parents were and the police and walk on a side street to get to the middle school [Norview Junior High School; Norview Middle School, Norfolk, Virginia]. There weren't as many on that route as it had been near the high school, because there were six black students going into the white schools, so they were there for them. But they were brought in cars, so the parents only had us to attack, because we were walking. Well, we kept going, and the police let us pass by, because we were going on to the middle school. I was okay with that, because I was holding his hand. My fear came when I got to the school. There was a sign that said the seventh graders had to go around the side. The eighth graders had to come in the front door. I don't know why I didn't think that I would not be with him all day. I knew he was in seventh grade and I was in eighth grade, but it just hadn't crossed my young mind that I would not be watching out for him all day. So, I had to think, and there was a great big tree. So I told them, I said, "Well, Skip [James Turner, Jr.], you're going to be with your friends, and the four of you are going to be together. But what I want you to do is, see this tree? When school is over, the four of you be standing right here waiting for me." It wasn't out of fear for me. I was the oldest; I was supposed to take care of them, so I had to take them back home. And I was thinking the same thing was going to happen going home that happened coming to school. So, I had to watch out for them. And you had asked me before, what I was thinking. I was thinking I was the oldest, and it was my place to watch out for them. I wasn't thinking anybody was going to hurt us, but I was thinking they were going to throw rocks and everything at us again, and I was supposed to watch out for them. So I hadn't thought about myself being alone. I don't know why, but I hadn't thought about that.$But in the eleventh grade [at Norview High School, Norfolk, Virginia], something happened. Number one, the 17 [Norfolk 17] had already passed two grades, including the grade they were going into, so we had to be smart. I passed the eighth grade, ninth grade, and tenth grade tests to get into the eighth grade [at Norview Middle School, Norfolk, Virginia]. By the eleventh grade, the children began to realize this. And especially I was over exceptional in math; I was taking calculus in eleventh grade. There was a boy that--a white boy, 'cause nobody else was there. He came one day and asked me if I would help him with his algebra, because he needed algebra to graduate, whereas I was taking calculus. And I was so quiet, he just figured maybe I could help him. Well, I helped this boy. Every day, he would come to my table at lunch. A lot of them would come by the eleventh grade. But I would help him at lunch with his algebra, which was his next class. When his parents found out, they didn't move him from the school, they left the whole state. They just moved, because they found out that I was helping him. He had asked me to go to the prom. I was going to go with him to the prom; he was my friend. I had three friends when I graduated, him and two girls. When they found out I had helped him with algebra and he had asked me to the prom, that's when they moved. I never saw that boy again. I found out at our forty-fifth reunion that he had died. All right, these three gave me gifts at graduation. My class, when they called my name for graduation, my class gave me a standing ovation. These were the same people that had done unmentionable things to me for four years. But at graduation they realized, number one, I wasn't going away, and number two, I was smart as the dickens, so they accepted me. During those four years, I'd had questions asked. You see, the children were children, no matter what the color of their skin. They were only doing what they had been taught. I was against what they were learning at home. Number one, my hair was down my back. They said all black people had short hair and put all kinds of grease and stuff in it, so stay away from them, they smelled funny. I was against the rule. Number two, we were supposed to be stupid, because we had been slaves and we never did learn anything. I was smarter than most of them. So, I was against the rule. They were just as confused over me as I was confused over why were they treating me that way. I was [U.S.] military. When daddy [James Turner, Sr.] took us to the base, some of these same children were playing with me on the base [Naval Station Norfolk, Norfolk, Virginia] who would call me names at school, because they were with their peers. If they had been as nice to me as they were on the base in school, they would have beat them up too. So, they were living in a confused world as much as I was.

Thelma Groomes

Thelma Lucille Jarmon Vass Groomes was born January 3, 1911, in Kinston, North Carolina. An only child, her father worked as a truck driver and a preacher while her mother was a seamstress and beautician. Groomes grew up in Washington, D.C., graduating from high school in 1928 and going on to attend Howard University, where she earned a B.A. in education in 1932. She would later return to school at the University of the District of Columbia to further her education in the 1960s.

After graduating from Howard, Groomes took a job with the U.S. Department of Commerce, tabulating figures for the next three years. In 1935, she left for the U.S. Department of Labor to work as a statistical clerk, and she would remain there until 1959. That year, she went to work at Hine Junior High School teaching English, reading and social studies. She also taught government and sociology at Roosevelt High School as part of its adult education program. While at Hine, Groomes was an outgoing teacher engaged in her students' progress. She was the sponsor of the United Nations Contest and trip to the United Nations in New York, the sponsor of the Junior Red Cross Society and sponsor of the Charm and Culture Club. She also served as a representative of the school to the city of Washington, D.C., and the National Education Association. Groomes retired in 1972, but spent the next year working as a consultant to Alton Elementary School in the Parent-Partnership Traineeship Program.

Over the years, Groomes has been involved in a wide number of organizations. She has served as the vice president of the Association for the Study of African American Life and History in the Capital chapter, served on the Women's Committee of the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts and is a charter member and vice president of the D.C. Friends of Liberia. She also currently serves as the president of the Howard University Women's Club, a role that she also filled from 1954 to 1956. She is also a lifelong member of the National Education Association and the NAACP. Groomes has been named the Woman of the Year by Afro-American, has been inducted into the Washington Urban League Hall of Fame, and was named One of Washington's Best Dressed Women by the Omega Wives. Groomes has traveled the world and sponsored three overseas orphans. She has two children, two grandchildren and three great-grandchildren.

Groomes passed away on August 8, 2011 at the age of 100.

Accession Number

A2003.159

Sex

Female

Interview Date

7/17/2003

Last Name

Groomes

Maker Category
Marital Status

Widowed

Schools

University of the District of Columbia

Paul Laurence Dunbar High School

Wilson J.o. Es

First Name

Thelma

Birth City, State, Country

Kinston

HM ID

GRO02

Favorite Season

Spring

State

North Carolina

Favorite Vacation Destination

Canada

Favorite Quote

Give To The World The Best That You Have And The Best Will Come Back To You.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

District of Columbia

Birth Date

1/3/1911

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Washington

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Chicken, Spinach

Death Date

8/30/2011

Short Description

Middle school teacher Thelma Groomes (1911 - 2011 ) served as the president of the Howard University Women's Board.

Employment

United States Department of Commerce

United States Department of Labor

Hine Junior High School

Roosevelt High School

Alton Elementary School

Favorite Color

Sky Blue

Timing Pairs
0,0:6868,110:14173,165:16695,188:17180,194:17859,203:25893,265:26663,283:27202,291:34209,422:34594,428:35210,440:35518,445:36211,457:47915,579:48960,603:49435,609:58440,683:59070,691:73086,816:79708,936:80052,941:80912,958:82890,1041:83664,1055:94300,1144:95128,1156:95772,1164:99452,1215:106468,1320:106920,1325:116224,1451:120536,1516:121026,1522:122496,1542:127970,1556:129174,1572:130636,1587:131496,1609:132356,1647:132700,1652:133044,1657:133646,1673:135624,1709:137774,1742:140440,1793:145811,1813:150007,1847:152617,1880:154183,1903:156184,1937:156706,1944:157489,1960:159055,1986:163870,2029:166030,2057:166480,2063:169090,2097:170710,2132:171340,2140:172330,2153:172870,2161:173320,2167:174130,2178:174670,2185:176290,2209:184029,2271:184514,2277:186850,2283$0,0:1001,14:4641,88:5187,95:12194,234:15379,306:15925,313:17199,384:23150,404:25955,459:26380,465:26805,471:27825,489:51540,875:52080,882:52710,890:56310,933:56670,941:59010,965:61980,1007:62790,1023:78100,1148:82525,1184:86605,1245:88050,1267:88560,1275:93150,1350:94170,1362:94595,1369:95020,1375:95785,1386:101763,1424:102047,1429:102757,1441:104745,1482:107159,1524:107585,1532:109786,1574:110212,1581:110709,1590:112058,1610:112697,1620:113336,1634:113620,1639:114259,1649:114827,1665:115537,1680:116318,1766:125284,1827:128564,1875:129958,1896:130696,1907:132172,1928:136220,1933:138290,1957:139190,1969:139550,1974:139910,1979:140810,1992:141170,1997:141530,2002:141980,2007:143600,2031:143960,2036:145220,2063:145580,2068:152129,2102:157176,2160:157897,2169:159236,2186:165390,2217:166655,2247:168150,2265:170105,2278:183789,2447:185351,2478:190200,2502:192480,2531:193715,2548:209922,2791:223998,2927:234330,3078:235572,3103:235986,3111:236331,3117:239505,3169:239781,3183:240057,3188:240885,3201:241161,3206:241644,3218:246465,3255:247970,3268
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Thelma Groomes's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Thelma Groomes lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Thema Groomes describes her maternal family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Thelma groomes describes her mother's personality and occupation

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Thelma Groomes describes her mother's educational background

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Thelma Groomes describes her father's personality and family background

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Thelma Groomes briefly talks about being her parents' marriage and being an only child

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Thelma Groomes describes the sights, sounds, and smells of her childhood in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Thelma Groomes describes her childhood neighborhood in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Thelma Groomes talks about her father's truck driving accident

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Thelma Groomes describes her childhood personality and activities

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Thelma Groomes describes her grandfather's encounter with a bear and researching her family history with HistoryMaker Gen. Julius Becton, Jr.

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Thelma Groomes remembers her uncle, Elias Becton, a U.S. military veteran of World War I

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Thelma Groomes talks about her various nicknames

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Thelma Groomes describes her favorite elementary and high school subjects and teachers

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Thelma Groomes describes her experience at Dunbar High School in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Thelma Groomes describes her experience as an undergraduate student at Howard University in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Thelma Groomes remembers Howard University faculty like William Leo Hansberry and E. Franklin Frazier

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Thelma Groomes talks about her involvement in the Howard University Women's Club

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Thelma Groomes talks about Mary Church Terrell and Judge Mary Ann Gooden Terrell's non-profit organization for girls, High Tea Society, Inc.

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Thelma Groomes describes her involvement with Howard University's Friends of the Chapel

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Thelma Groomes lists notable faculty and alumni of Howard University in Washington D.C.

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Thelma Groomes describes working in the U.S. government as an undergraduate student and teaching junior high school in 1959

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Thelma Groomes describes her experience in the U.S. Department of Labor and her husband's work as a union organizer

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Thelma Groomes describes challenges her husband faced as a union organizer

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Thelma Groomes describes her experience teaching at Hines Junior High School in Washington D.C.

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Thelma Groomes describes her tenure as president of the non-profit organization, Friends of Liberia

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Thelma Groomes talks about Dr. Carter Godwin Woodson's legacy

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Thelma Groomes talks about her tenure as president of the Association for the Study of African American Life and History (ASALH)

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Thelma Groomes talks about Paul Laurence Dunbar High School's African American history curriculum

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Thelma Groomes talks about her affiliation with various civic organizations

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Thelma Groomes remembers the assassination of the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. in 1968 and the March on Washington in 1963

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Thelma Groomes remembers meeting Fannie Lou Hamer in 1964

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Thelma Groomes remembers the Poor People's Campaign in 1968 and being awarded Woman of the Year

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Thelma Groomes talks about her parents' involvement with the Universal Negro Improvement Association

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Thelma Groomes talks about her retirement from the District of Columbia public school system in 1972

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Thelma Groomes describes her hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Thelma Groomes considers her legacy

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Thelma Groomes talks about the significance of oral history

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Thelma Groomes talks about her parent's perception of her work

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Thelma Groomes narrates her photographs, pt. 1

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Thelma Groomes narrates her photographs, pt. 2

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$3

DAStory

1$7

DATitle
Thelma Groomes talks about Mary Church Terrell and Judge Mary Ann Gooden Terrell's non-profit organization for girls, High Tea Society, Inc.
Thelma Groomes describes her experience teaching at Hines Junior High School in Washington D.C.
Transcript
Mary Church Terrell, can you--$$Oh, yeah.$$What was she like, what was she like?$$Well, she was a no-nonsense person and very outgoing. And I, I learned a good bit about her when in late years when she started this protesting, you know, the discrimination here in Washington [D.C.] because they would meet every Saturday. My husband, Ogden Groomes, was a union man and, of course, he was at all of these things. He was right there. And they would march from maybe restaurants or wherever, and go in to be served and all that sort of thing. And they would meet at the church down there, I think, at Grant Circle a lot of times. But anyway, she was as, as hearty and as agile as most of them. She was with them. And she was sincere, a very sincere person. And I don't know, at her age, you just couldn't, you couldn't believe this, that she had the energy that she has, oh, yes. She was, she was a marvel. And when we gave her that citation, Howard Women's Club [Howard University Women's Club], and I presented it to her--I have a picture of it that I'm going to give them. And I, I was endeared to her. Mary Terrell, you know, and recently, I haven't asked her, but I've had, had occasion to talk with Judge Mary [Ann Gooden] Terrell. They call her Terrell (pronounced with stress on second syllable), and most people call Mary Church Terrell, Terrell (pronounced with stress on first syllable). And I don't know whether down the line, they are related or not. But she is a judge here at the, in the court system, and she has started a, an organization to work with--she calls it the High Tea Society [High Tea Society Inc.]. And they work with inner city girls, showing them that there's no alternative to the kind of thing that they're confronted with in communities. So I joined that in past year 2002, I think, and they have taken over the area and the home that the Baker's Dozen years ago. Those were a group of social workers here in Washington [D.C.] who had this home over on 4th Street, and they are occupying that to work with these girls as one of the, the activity houses.$$The Baker's Dozen?$$Huh? Baker's Dozen, yes. Most of those girls were social workers and they banded together and they worked for many, many years with inner city young women.$Tell me about school when you, were, were you excited to be able to start a career as a school teacher?$$Was I excited?$$Yeah.$$Oh, yeah, oh (laughter). Oh, when I, when I resigned from [the U.S. Department of] Labor and went--well, that summer, I got my mother [Cora Becton Jarmon] in my car and I drove around this horrible Hine [Hines Junior High School in Washington D.C.]. And when we (laughter), when we got around there to the front door, we saw all these young fellows. I guess about five or six of them in the vestibule of the school over there at 7th and Southeast [Washington, D.C.], shooting crap (laughter). And momma said, "Whoo, are you crazy, where are you going to teach?" I said, "Oh, yeah, they're, they're not school students, they're not students." I said, "They're just in front of the building doing what they're accustomed to doing." But I was really excited when I went in. I wasn't as confident and sure of myself at the beginning because I inherited a person that teaches program who had just left, whose position I had, you know, been put into. And he was a teacher of, of a business, and I wasn't a teacher of business, so I had to keep ahead of that. Well, that didn't happen, but maybe a year or so, one year, and I fulfilled that as best as I could, and I wasn't a bad teacher. And I, I was, being an older person, not just a young person put into that teaching position, I didn't have problems as some of the teachers had with discipline because, see, I was an older person. I'd been in government, and here I'd come as an older person into the classroom, and they respected that. And in many instances when they would bring students from Caesar Knowles [ph.] who problems students and put in my room, I didn't have any problem with them. And it ended up that I got a lot of them that I didn't, I shouldn't have had. I had too many of them, but it worked out well, for me and for them because I, I, I had the maturity to deal with them and let them know that life was much more than they were seeing right there at that time. And they could, they could make an impression and, and be fulfilled in whatever they chose to work at and, and actually be committed and, and dedicated to their, you know, their studies and that sort of thing.$$Okay. Now, now when did you, were you able to teach social studies and--$$Oh, yes, then I got my, my own program, English and social studies. Then later on, I enjoyed it because, and it was exciting, because I not only worked with them in the classroom, but I sponsored the Red Cross [The American Red Cross] group, the Charmette [ph.] Club. I had extra, I just took on extra stuff and worked with the students and they appreciated that and I see a lot of them now. They see me and know who I am, but they have to tell me, "Oh, I was in your class" and such and such thing. And even when I went down to jury duty, there were one or two down there--said, "Didn't you teach at Hine?" I said, "Yeah." She said, "I was in your class," and she had her little youngster along with her. And that, that's a rewarding kind of thing when you meet these students and they remember, you know, you and your relationship with them in the classroom. That's a rewarding thing about it all.