As a result of the riots, the TV stations needed people to cover them and like that. So, they started, you know, hiring people. So, when I got out of college, I guess that was '68  with King [Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.], so, it--and, so, when I got of college, BU [Boston University, Boston, Massachusetts], no, sorry, when I got of Columbia [Columbia University, New York, New York] in '69 , I graduated in '69 , and then I started looking around. It was like word of mouth, you know. It was like, okay, they're looking for--they have a black show over here. PBS [Public Broadcasting Service] is starting a black show. CBS--ABC is starting a black show. They're looking for people. And, the publicity department is looking for somebody, you know. I don't know, I don't know how I knew but, I went there and I worked. But, it was word of mouth, you know, it was just like a networking thing. You'd call up people, hello, I'm working, I don't know, but, you know, so and so told me to call you 'cause, you know. And, so, I, I got a job in their network publicity department [at ABC]. So, I was the press rep for the soaps. One of the press reps for the soaps. Had to put out these press releases, today, you know, on 'One Life to Live,' blah, blah, blah (laughter).$$(Laughter).$$Well, you know, and, and I was joining the union, and that was a good thing 'cause it was a union job. But, all the people around me were tired and burnt out, you know, they were, they didn't like their jobs. And, they lived for the year when they could go to the big press junket thing and all that. But, I couldn't go 'cause I was too low on the totem pole, and I wasn't sure I wanted to go anyway. I mean, I wanted to go but, you know. I was very sensitive to, you know, I was at the point where people would be making passes at me and stuff like that. And, you had to be like very discreet about saying no, and all this so. And, so, one day I get a call that they were looking for an associate producer, an assistant producer or something like that for this show called 'Like It Is.'$$'Like It Is'?$$Yeah. And, and ABC was kind of the WABC news division [WABC-TV, New York, New York] and, so. But, the only thing was, it was local and not network, you know, ABC. And, it was a per diem job not a staff job, and not union. So, and it was less money. So, I had to think what I wanted to do about that. But, I just decided that I would take the job because that's what I wanted to do. And, so, I went over there and interviewed and everything, a small little staff, black staff. We were in a room about this big, four desks. And, I got that job. And, I stayed there for a long time. I was per diem for four years. And, ultimately, I ended up producing the show in the end, you know, just at the very end for a few months. But, in between there I also, I worked, I worked there for a while and then I--I don't know why I left there. I think I left there because they hired a guy--they brought somebody in over me, who was a guy, who hadn't--didn't have the experience I did and, he was idiot, I thought. And, you know, and he was over me. And, I wasn't making mon- you know, like this is ridiculous. So, I left.$$But, before you talk about leaving, did the content on the show have any impact on your life outside of the show?$$Well--$$Because, 'Like It Is' was it like, I mean, 'Like It Is' is still around today.$$Yeah.$$Was it the same sort of--?$$Yeah--$$--program?$$--only more so.$$Only more so. Okay.$$Yeah. Because we, I think we had more money in those days (simultaneous).$$(Simultaneous) So, it was still Gil Noble?$$Yeah, it was still Gil Noble. We had more money in those days, you know, and we could do anything we wanted to. They just didn't wanna hear from us, you know. We were always getting--doing things, agitating.$I mean, things happened to us [at WABC-TV, New York, New York], you know. And, I remember learning about standing up and telling our stories. I said, well, this is what we, you know, we're here to do. And, you know, I remember one time the Internal Revenue Service [IRS] came. We had Stokely Carmichael [Kwame Ture] on the show ['Like It Is']. And, one day, a few--like a week later or something, these guys showed up in the office and flashed their badges, FBI [Federal Bureau of Investigation]. And, they wanted to see--I was in charge of paying, I'd pay the bills among other things. I did everything on that show. I did, I learned to do everything. And, one of the things I did was I paid guest. So, I realize now they were trying to get him--after Stokely on--he was living in Africa, anyway. But, they wanted to see the forms that we used to pay him. I don't know if they wanted to see where he was--I don't know what they were--look, they just wanted to see the forms. You know, which had everything, social security number, the address that the checks went to, where he went, you know, like that. They wanted to see all that. And, I wouldn't let them see it. And, you know, I mean, they went past the guards, they went past the news director's office, they went straight through the newsroom. They're in the back (laughter), you know, these guy came in and they were basically kinds of menacing and threatening, you know. And, they wanted to see, and I wouldn't let 'em see it. And, I was said, why, what did they do? "Well, we just wanna see." Well, what is it you wanna see, well, you know? They couldn't, they weren't--I don't know what they wanted to see. And, they were on a fishing expedition basically. You know, they knew where he was. He was in the country. He knew, they knew where every--he knew they knew that. So, what were they--what did they wanna see? And, then they, they said, "Well, and what's your name, and what's your--." I mean, then they were getting like personally intimidating, you know. And, they said, well, I forget what they said, but it was sort of implying that they were gonna look into my--and, I said, well, fine. Go ahead. And, they, they left their cards in case there was anything we thought of that we wanted to tell them. Only, you know, I don't know, I never heard any more, I never heard or saw them again.