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William Richard Hayes

William Richard Hayes, musician and educator, was born March 7, 1944 in Carbondale, Illinois. His father, also William R. Hayes, worked for the Illinois Central Railroad while his mother, Eurma C. Hayes, was a noted Model Cities leader. Hayes attended Attucks Elementary School and graduated from Carbondale High School in 1962. At Southern Illinois University, he earned a B.M.E. degree in music education in 1967. There, he played bass for the Justin Singers. In 1971, he was awarded his masters of music degree from Western Illinois University.

In 1967, he taught music in Nebraska at Sandhill Public School. Married in 1969, Hayes lived and taught in Bermuda for a year. In 1971, Hayes taught at Pine Forge Academy in Pennsylvania, then at Bethlehem Community College. Teaching elementary school general music, choir, and beginning band as well as middle school band and orchestra, Hayes created curriculum and performance pieces at each level. At Traverse City, Michigan, Hayes founded the Multicultural Education Committee. Hayes worked as director of music programs for the Traverse City Area Public Schools from 1979 to 1993. He also served as conductor of the Cadillac Area Symphony from 1977 to 1993.

Now retired, Hayes founded the Ypsilanti, Michigan Youth Orchestra in 1997. Hayes is a former conductor of the River Raisin Ragtime Review as well as three-term Board of Directors member of the Ann Arbor Symphony Orchestra. His teaching style has been called the “Soul Method” an eclectic, but disciplined approach to music. In 2008, The Ann Arbor News named Hayes the 2008 Ypsilanti Heritage Fellow for his commitment to young people in the Ypsilanti area.

A well-known Detroit area jazz bassist, Hayes, a divorced father of three, lives in Ypsilanti, Michigan.

Hayes was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on January 18, 2005.

Accession Number

A2005.019

Sex

Male

Interview Date

1/18/2005

Last Name

Hayes

Maker Category
Middle Name

Richard

Schools

Carbondale Community High School

Attucks Elementary School

Southern Illinois University

Western Illinois University

First Name

William

Birth City, State, Country

Carbondale

HM ID

HAY07

Favorite Season

Fall

State

Illinois

Favorite Vacation Destination

Grand Teton National Park

Favorite Quote

Do It! Do It Right!! Do It Right Now!!!

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Michigan

Birth Date

3/7/1944

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Detroit

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Meatloaf

Short Description

School music programs director and orchestra conductor William Richard Hayes (1944 - ) was the founder of the Ypsilanti, Michigan Youth Orchestra, and worked as the director of music programs for the Traverse City Area Public Schools in Michigan for nearly three decades. He also served as conductor of the Cadillac Area Symphony, and has conducted the River Raisin Ragtime Review since 2002.

Employment

United States Department of Defense (USDOD)

Sandhills Public School

Pine Forge Academy

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of William Richard Hayes' interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - William Richard Hayes lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - William Richard Hayes talks about his mother's side of the family

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - William Richard Hayes describes his maternal grandparents

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - William Richard Hayes describes his mother's personality and upbringing

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - William Richard Hayes describes his mother's civic contributions and parenting style

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - William Richard Hayes talks about his father's side of the family

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - William Richard Hayes describes his father's personality and upbringing

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - William Richard Hayes describes his father's personality and activities

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - William Richard Hayes talks about his family's legacy at Southern Illinois University in Carbondale, Illinois

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - William Richard Hayes describes his father's employment with the Illinois Central Railroad

Tape: 1 Story: 12 - William Richard Hayes reflects upon his parents' relationship

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - William Richard Hayes describes his earliest childhood memories, pt. 1

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - William Richard Hayes describes his earliest childhood memories, pt. 2

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - William Richard Hayes describes the sights, sounds and smells of growing up in Carbondale, Illinois, pt. 1

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - William Richard Hayes describes the sights, sounds and smells of growing up in Carbondale, Illinois, pt. 2

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - William Richard Hayes details his educational experiences in Carbondale, Illinois

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - William Richard Hayes remembers being accused of dancing with two white girls at Carbondale Community High School in Carbondale, Illinois

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - William Richard Hayes talks about receiving a scholarship to attend Southern Illinois University in Carbondale, Illinois

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - William Richard Hayes recalls his musical interests and experiences as a high school student in Carbondale, Illinois

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - William Richard Hayes talks about his changing career aspirations between high school and college

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - William Richard Hayes describes his mentors from Carbondale Community High School and Southern Illinois University in Carbondale, Illinois

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - William Richard Hayes remembers playing bass for the Justin Singers at Southern Illinois University in Carbondale, Illinois

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - William Richard Hayes recalls racist incidents while traveling with the Justin Singers to play a talent show in Henderson, Kentucky

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - William Richard Hayes remembers his first encounter with racial discrimination while growing up

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - William Richard Hayes reflects upon formative experiences with race

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - William Richard Hayes shares his perspective on Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s civil rights campaign

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - William Richard Hayes talks about his first marriage

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - William Richard Hayes reflects upon his experiences living in Bermuda

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - William Richard Hayes remembers his impressions of, and teaching experiences at, Pine Forge Academy in Pine Forge, Pennsylvania

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - William Richard Hayes talks about leaving Pine Forge Academy in Pine Forge, Pennsylvania and the Seventh-day Adventist church

Tape: 3 Story: 10 - William Richard Hayes talks about the tokenism he witnessed at Northampton County Area Community College in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - William Richard Hayes talks about relocating from Illinois to Michigan

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - William Richard Hayes describes the racial discrimination he experienced while teaching in Frankfort, Michigan

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - William Richard Hayes describes his experience teaching for Traverse City Area Public Schools in Traverse City, Michigan

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - William Richard Hayes talks about establishing the multicultural education committee for Traverse City Area Public Schools in Traverse City, Michigan

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - William Richard Hayes describes his achievements as conductor of the Cadillac Area Symphony Orchestra

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - William Richard Hayes describes his musical pedagogy, pt. 1

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - William Richard Hayes talks about the courses he taught in Traverse City, Michigan

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - William Richard Hayes describes his musical pedagogy, pt. 2

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - William Richard Hayes remembers successful students he taught in Nebraska and Michigan

Tape: 4 Story: 10 - William Richard Hayes reflects upon his experiences as one of few African Americans in communities in which he lived and worked

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - William Richard Hayes describes his composition, 'Exodus, Suite Exodus' performed by the Chicago Chamber Orchestra

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - William Richard Hayes talks about reconnecting with his family after his first marriage ended

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - William Richard Hayes talks about the Ypsilanti Youth Orchestra

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - William Richard Hayes describes his hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - William Richard Hayes reflects upon his life

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - William Richard Hayes reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - William Richard Hayes considers his contributions to the Ypsilanti school district in Ypsilanti, Michigan

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - William Richard Hayes talks about his parents' reactions to his musical interests and career

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - William Richard Hayes talks about his children's musical aspirations

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - William Richard Hayes shares his perspective on oral history interviews

Tape: 5 Story: 11 - William Richard Hayes describes how he would like to be remembered

DASession

1$1

DATape

4$3

DAStory

5$2

DATitle
William Richard Hayes describes his achievements as conductor of the Cadillac Area Symphony Orchestra
William Richard Hayes recalls racist incidents while traveling with the Justin Singers to play a talent show in Henderson, Kentucky
Transcript
That [establishing the multicultural education committee] was a positive thing for me. The fact that after that happened, I was run out of town, you know. But I had made I thought what was a good showing in Traverse City [Michigan]. The kids--I was wearing an afro when I first went there and a big beard. Not big beard, but a lot more than now. And I couldn't keep the white kids from pulling at and touching my hair 'cause they hadn't had any contact. And I taught them songs of America, their America. I occasionally had some sort of gospel or rock or black beat with some of the things, which was cute, you know, to those people. But I didn't set out to show them a black man. I went there with the attitude I am, I have two degrees, I'm not egotistical. I'm just plain Bill Hayes [HistoryMaker William Richard Hayes] regular. Asked me to teach this music to these kids, I can do that and I did that without any--I didn't bring anything to myself beyond what would ordinarily come in recognition of what I was doing.$$Now in Traverse City, you were conductor of a community orchestra there (unclear)?$$While I was living in Traverse City, I was conductor of the Cadillac Area Symphony Orchestra [Cadillac Symphony Orchestra].$$Okay.$$So that was a fifty, sixty mile trip from my home each night to--each Tuesday night for years. Area Symphony Orchestra, Cadillac Area.$$Okay.$$I was not the first conductor, but I, I was with them for seventeen years. It was an all-white group. I don't--yes there was a, a black woman that played flute. Other than my son [Matthew Hayes] who played drums occasionally as he got old enough, and my daughter who finally graduated enough to play bass, there were no black people in the, in the orchestra. After I think fifteen years, the mayor presented me with a, a document--proclamation naming the day of that particular concert as William R. Hayes, Jr. Day in Cadillac [Michigan]. Recognizing the work that I had done in continuing the symphony and, and building an audience for it. That was, that was a good thing for me. I didn't try to impose on them. I wanted to let them do what they wanted to do and it was not a very good performance orchestra. But I wasn't there to make the Chicago Symphony [Orchestra]. And I remember my history with them, the words from--there was one president all of that time. That was their--she kept making herself remain president. But it was to my advantage because I would get what I needed and wanted. But she would always say it's not so much what he did, but how he did it. And, and, without hurting anybody's feelings and, and with tact and all that kind of stuff. I never had any incidents with the orchestra.$And I remember it was almost tornado weather. It was very scary driving across Southern Illinois with that ominous sky. But we [the Justin Singers] drove to Henderson [Kentucky] and, and straight to a restaurant/bar where three of our schoolmates were singing, like The Kinsmen--the Kingston Trio or something or other. And it was afternoon, so we walked in and, and saw their instruments and their stage and there was a, a bartender and a waitress. And we sat for twenty minutes and neither one of them came. They just kept talking. Finally, one of us asked her, and long and short, they weren't going to serve us. So we asked them to call the manager and they called the manager and the manager says, "No, do not serve them." So we left. We went and, and played the show and, and won first place. And the first person backstage to congratulate us was the owner of that restaurant where we had been denied service. And he still doesn't know that we were the ones that he had denied service. "Want you guys to come down to my restaurant and have dinner, have anything, drinks, stay at my house tonight, swim in my pool in the morning." And he doesn't--he didn't know that he had refuse (laughter)--so after we had declined. We did go to the restaurant and have dinner and, and lots--we even played a couple of songs that night. But we drove back. And the little town of Carmi [Illinois], C-A-R-M-I. We stopped burgers just like one o'clock or so in the morning, whatever. And the--all of a sudden the place filled up. I mean every seat. You could hear the country western music and so on. And just as we finished our burgers, the place emptied. And we were the last people in the room. And we walked outside and every headlight in Carmi turned on that building (laughter). So we got in our car and we were going to go west. And we were blocked from going out of the driveway by a line of cars that was going west. And finally the line stopped and somebody let us in line. The rest of the cars followed us out and led us (laughter), okay.$$Okay, so--$$No other incident. But you know that has to be a memorable experience for, for the five of us.

Paul Douglas Freeman

Born in Richmond, Virginia, maestro Paul Freeman made a global impact with his symphonic direction. Freeman attended the Eastman School of Music, where he earned his B.A., M.A. and Ph.D. degrees, with his principal instruments being the clarinet and the cello. Following the completion of his Ph.D., Freeman received a Fulbright Scholarship for two years of study at the Hochschule für Musik in Berlin, and then studied under conductor Pierre Monteaux at the American Symphony.

Freeman began his conducting career with the Opera Theater of Rochester, New York, where he worked for six years. Following his term at the Opera Theater, Freeman served as the associate conductor of the Dallas and Detroit symphonies, and went on to become the principal guest conductor of the Helsinki Philharmonic Orchestra. In 1979, Freeman joined the Victoria Symphony in Canada, where he served as music director until 1989. In 1987, Freeman founded the Chicago Sinfonietta, where he served as conductor; in 1996 he was appointed the music director and conductor of the Czech National Symphony Orchestra. Freeman served in both posts concurrently.

After the 1970s, one of Freeman's passions became exposing audiences to black composers. To achieve this aim, the Sinfonietta produced numerous shows highlighting the works of black composers; during the 1970s Freeman released nine albums on Columbia Records to highlight some of the most notable names. In 1975, Time listed Freeman's recordings of the first four volumes in its top ten classical records of all time.

Freeman conducted seven productions for national television; conducted five productions for international audiences through Czech national television; and was involved in more than 200 recordings. Freeman was the recipient of numerous awards, including the prestigious Mitropoulos International Conductors Competition; the Spoleto Festival of Two Worlds Award; and the Jubilate Award, Canada's highest award for music education. In total, Freeman conducted over 100 orchestras in twenty-eight countries.

Paul Freeman passed away on July 22, 2015, at the age of 79.

Accession Number

A2003.089

Sex

Male

Archival Photo 1
Interview Date

4/24/2003

Last Name

Freeman

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Occupation
Organizations
Schools

Navy Hill School

Booker T. Washington Junior High School

Armstrong High School

Eastman School of Music, University of Rochester

Hochschule für Musik

Archival Photo 2
First Name

Paul

Birth City, State, Country

Richmond

HM ID

FRE03

Favorite Season

None

State

Virginia

Favorite Vacation Destination

Chicago, Illinois, Victoria, British Columbia

Favorite Quote

Convert your energy into the positive approach as opposed to using or wasting time thinking in a negative way, it will make not only a stronger person, but will help you accomplish.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

British Columbia

Birth Date

1/2/1936

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Victoria

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Chinese Food

Death Date

7/22/2015

Short Description

Orchestra conductor Paul Douglas Freeman (1936 - 2015 ) founded and conducted the Chicago Sinfonietta. He was also the music director and conductor of the Czech National Symphony Orchestra.

Employment

Chicago Sinfonietta

Czech National Symphony Orchestra

Favorite Color

Black, White

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Paul Freeman interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Paul Freeman gives basic information on his parents and siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Paul Freeman's favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Paul Freeman remembers his grandparents

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Paul Freeman talks about his relationship with his mother and siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Paul Freeman recalls early experiences with music

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Paul Freeman discusses studying music as a child

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Paul Freeman talks about the lives and careers of his siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Paul Freeman remembers performing with his brother and talks about other musical family members

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Paul Freeman briefly recalls his elementary school

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Paul Freeman remembers experiences during elementary school

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Paul Freeman discusses his interests during junior high and high school

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Paul Freeman explains his first maestro experience and transition into music school

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Paul Freeman talks about why he attended Eastman School of Music

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Paul Freeman recalls experiences abroad and difficulties he faced when returning to the United States

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Paul Freeman recalls how he discovered a new way of using religion

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Paul Freeman talks about obtaining an assistantship at Eastman School of Music

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Paul Freeman tells of ways he and his wife made extra money while at Eastman School of Music

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Paul Freeman discusses couples in the music profession

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Paul Freeman discusses his first jobs as a conductor in North America

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Paul Freeman describes race discrimination he experienced in Dallas, Texas

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Paul Freeman recalls the various moves his family made for his career

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Paul Freeman tells of his son's upbringing and interests

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Paul Freeman remembers meeting and performing with Marian Anderson

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Paul Freeman explains overcoming segregation in classical music

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Paul Freeman discusses meetings with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Paul Freeman reflects on Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.'s life

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Paul Freeman talks about youth's perception of orchestral music

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Paul Freeman recalls researching and performing the works of black composers

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Paul Freeman discusses the art of choosing and sequencing selections for a performance

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Paul Freeman explains how he has integrated other art forms into his orchestra concerts

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Paul Freeman talks about his syndicated radio program, 'Global Maestro'

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Paul Freeman speaks about the influence of various black composers

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Paul Freeman discusses issues in interpreting others' compositions

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Paul Freeman considers his legacy

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Paul Freeman talks about his relationship with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Paul Freeman reflects on his current successes

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Photo - Paul Douglas Freeman, ca. 1945

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Photo - Paul Freeman's son, Douglas Cornell Freeman, ca. 1972

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Photo - Paul Freeman with his wife and son, ca. 1980

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Photo - Second copy of Paul Douglas Freeman, ca. 1945

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Photo - Paul Freeman's son and daughter-in-law on their wedding day, ca. 2001

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Photo - Paul Freeman's son Douglas and wife Cornelia, Detroit, Michigan, ca. 1977

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - Photo - Collection of classical music compact discs featuring Paul Freeman

DASession

1$1

DATape

1$3

DAStory

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DATitle
Paul Freeman recalls early experiences with music
Paul Freeman describes race discrimination he experienced in Dallas, Texas
Transcript
I was the only one that would stay in the house and practice. I started age six and a half, seven playing the clarinet and by age fifteen, I wanted to become a symphony orchestra conductor and I'll tell you how that came about. It was interesting because at that time we didn't have FM radio, we had AM. And the, the important programs which came on the radio each week were NBC [Symphony] Orchestra with [Arturo] Toscanini, the New York Philharmonic, Metropolitan Opera [New York, New York], things of that sort. And that was the music that surrounded us. My parents [Louis Willis Freeman and Theola Freeman] really didn't like popular music that much so this was the environment in which we were raised. And she [mother] would often say to me, "Now Paul, it's very important that you go outside sometimes and even play with your peers you know, it won't hurt." But, but I was practicing constantly and writing music and thinking music and listening to music and she couldn't figure out you know because I was different in that respect from all of the other children. They all practiced and then they were gone. They were ready to play. So she, she talked to me from time to time and asked me questions like "Why do you do that?" And I wanted to do some rather how do you say, rather simple inventions which today I mean I'm not, I mean with the technology it's nothing today. But I had the idea that it was maybe, be closer to the synthesizer. You know how the synthesizer makes sounds of various instruments? I had the idea that I could develop a clarinet that would play without a person. So I devised a little gadget whereby you know the rubber tips that you put on your finger to turn pages, would put them on some wood as the fingers and a, a, had a pumping device and I had a bellow you know for the air to go into the clarinet and I would pump and that, it would play a little bit so I was thrilled. But she thought that's really weird you know. And the most fascinating as I remember because this was all an interaction with, with my parents about this as well, was when I read in the--at age twelve you see my, my family was very strict about our, earning our own money. We didn't have any allowance we had to earn our money. And it was not because our father couldn't give us that because he owned a fruit and vegetable retail and wholesale and they sent their fleets back and forth to Florida. He had seven or eight large vans that would go--you know, trailers--that would go back and forth to Florida and bring the fruits and vegetables. And that, at that time for an African American to have a business like that to sell wholesale to restaurants and department store restaurants, that was quite you know significant at that time. And I remember because my father traveled so much a lot of our dialogue was through writing notes. So if we wanted something, if we wanted to purchase something my mother would say "Well, write Dad," we called him Daddy, "Write Daddy a note." And so I remember I wanted to purchase a Rhesus monkey and I saw it advertised for $17.98 in a magazine. So I really became very excited about that and I asked my mother if I could use the money from my paper route to purchase this Rhesus monkey and she says "Well, ask your father," because she knew what my father would say. But my father was traveling. I left a note, it took about three days and he finally in the night you know when he came in late, he wrote the note and he answered, "If you have the money you may purchase the monkey." By that time the monkeys had been sold and I was devastated because my plan was first to buy a female Rhesus monkey, then to buy a male to then develop a monkey band. To have the monkeys play an instrument you see. And so even as a child I had the idea of ensemble concept, playing together. And, and one reason that I gravitated to the clarinet rather than the piano where I started at age five is because I felt that I wanted to play an instrument with other people, with other, you know with groups, not just alone.$We went to Dallas [Texas] and little did we know that it became a wonderful experience. We crashed all sorts of barriers. And I remember even when we were trying to get an apartment of course we were turned down in many of the finer apartments. But we finally decided to purchase a home. I think it was called Oak Brook Section. I'm, I'm not sure now. Anyhow it was a section that was, what you call that, turnover section going from white to black, transitional section. It was another term that we used. And so therefore the wonderful fine houses were very cheap. We decided to buy one of those which we could afford. The night that we were supposed to write the agreement on the house on that evening before we went to the realtors we were entertained at a party where we were guests at the home of the chairman of the board of the orchestra who was a CEO [Chief Executive Officer] of Texas Cement [Products, Inc.], okay? So they were talking to us and they said "Oh, where are you going to live," blah, blah, blah? And we said "Oak Park that's what I was thinking about, Oak Ridge or something." And they said "Wait a minute. That's a transitional section. You, you don't have to live there, that's twenty five minutes from the concert hall. You should live closer." Well that was in--the concert hall was in North Texas, North Dallas which was absolutely not integrated. And they said, "If anybody can crash a community, certainly the new associate conductor of the Dallas Symphony [Orchestra] could." And so I said "Yeah, but we tried and we've been turned down. We're sick of it." The chairman said "I will send my executive assistant to you guys tomorrow. You look at any home or any apartment that you want to see and I'll see that you get into it." So we looked at some of the homes that--now at that time $55,000, that was, I mean like, like 5 million dollars, you know. We had purchased a home for $29,000, we had moved from one in Rochester [New York], $24,000. And you know but the whole thing, whole scheme of things different you know from a monetary system so we couldn't afford a $55,000--we didn't say anything. So we saw an apartment in the Athena Apartments on Northwest Avenue [sic, Northwest Highway]. For those people that know Dallas you will know what I mean. That was really something near Preston Road. It was near the home of the Nash family which had developed North Park, which is a huge area of the shopping mall and all of that and he was an Ambassador to the United Nations and so forth. That was the section to where the, these apartments were. Now we had to push it but, but we thought okay we can afford to rent the apartment and not have a mortgage. So we made application and they said well you know very politely "We'll let you know tomorrow. It's very nice you're moving into the community. We have to you know check your credit reference" and so forth and of course tomorrow came and they said "Well you know the apartment that you wanted is not going to, it's not quite, we don't have anymore of the one bedroom apartments, see." And then so we told this to the chairman and he said "Wait a minute I'll phone there." He phoned. They called back, "Oh you know one just opened up, you see." And, but the chairman told us afterwards he says "You know I told you that you can look at any apartments or homes that you wanted but we didn't know that you would select the most exclusive building in the community." (laughs) So that was a very interesting experience for us you see. So we were crashing that. This was let me think, early '70s [1970s] see, before I came to Detroit [Michigan] because that was my first professional job as conductor. Now the interesting thing is we were playing with the Dallas Symphony in the public schools and so forth and we went to this one predominantly black school. Well at that time they were still not so integrated. Well many of them are not today. But anyhow the black principal, and so I remember these words ring clear in my ear, ring clearly in my ear. He stood up and he said at the end of the program, "Well this has been a wonderful experience. You know Dr. Freeman has brought the orchestra here, the Dallas Symphony, first time." And he says "And I want you to meet his beautiful wife [Cornelia Perry Freeman]," and he had my wife stand there. She was at the concert. And then he says, "They live in the Athena Apartments behind the pink wall." He says "Did you hear me?" He says "Behind the pink wall." Now the pink wall was an actual spot where blacks were not permitted to go after dark without identification. That's the apartheid we had in America. The principal said "They live behind the pink wall."$$And this was early '70s [1970s]?$$Yes.