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The Honorable Shauna Graves-Robertson

Utah Third District Justice Court judge Shauna Marie Graves-Robertson was born on June 22, 1958, in Salt Lake City, Utah, where she was raised by her mother Ms. Augustine C. Morgan. Robertson attended Salt Lake City’s Jefferson Elementary and Matheson Elementary Schools. In 1976, she graduated from West High School, where she was a staff member of the school’s newspaper and the singing group, West High Acappella.

After graduating, Graves-Robertson enrolled at Arizona State University where she received her B.S. degree in criminal justice in 1980. She later attended American University in Washington, D.C., and completed an internship with Senator Orrin G. Hatch and the Virginia Parole and Probation Department. In 1982, Graves-Robertson was hired as a program specialist for the Division of Youth Corrections, Office of Standards and Evaluations in Salt Lake City, Utah. She went on to work as a treatment counselor, observing, testing and reporting the behavior of delinquent youth. In 1984, Graves-Robertson was appointed by Governor Scott M. Matheson to head the State Office of Black Affairs. While serving in that capacity, she worked with community leaders and organizations to promote economic development throughout minority communities. Graves-Robertson then earned her M.A. degree in public administration from the University of Utah in 1987. In 1989, Graves-Robertson worked as a law clerk for the office of the Attorney General, and one year later, she earned her J.D. degree from the University of Utah.

As an attorney, Graves-Robertson practiced in the areas of criminal defense and family and employment law. She has worked with Utah Legal Defenders Association and Innovations International, Inc., where she trained the members of major corporations in the areas of diversity and empowerment throughout the United States and Canada. In 1999, Graves-Robertson was appointed to the Salt Lake County Justice Court, where she is the presiding judge.

Graves-Robertson has served on the boards of the Alberta Henry Foundation and Youth and Families with Promise. She is also a member of the National Bar Association, Minority Bar Association, the National Association of Women Lawyers and the American Bar Association.

Graves-Robertson lives in Salt Lake City, Utah with her husband, John. They have three daughters Jacquenita, Jordan and Joey.

Accession Number

A2008.053

Sex

Female

Interview Date

3/15/2008

Last Name

Graves-Robertson

Maker Category
Organizations
Schools

West High School

Jefferson Elementary School

Matheson Elementary School

Northwest Middle School

First Name

Shauna

Birth City, State, Country

Salt Lake City

HM ID

GRA10

Favorite Season

Spring

State

Utah

Favorite Vacation Destination

Southern Caribbean

Favorite Quote

I Don't Have Any Energy Around It.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Utah

Birth Date

6/22/1958

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Salt Lake City

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Collard Greens

Short Description

Municipal court judge The Honorable Shauna Graves-Robertson (1958 - ) practiced as an attorney in the areas of criminal defense and family and employment law in the State of Utah. In 1999, Graves-Robertson was appointed to the Salt Lake County Justice Court, where she is the presiding judge.

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Shauna Graves-Robertson's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Shauna Graves-Robertson lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Shauna Graves-Robertson describes her mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Shauna Graves-Robertson recounts her mother's migration to Ogden, Utah

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Shauna Graves-Robertson talks about her biological father

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Shauna Graves-Robertson describes her stepfather, Norman B. Morgan, and her godparents, Frank and Janie Mae Crosby

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Shauna Graves-Robertson describes her godfather, Frank Crosby, and her childhood neighborhood in Salt Lake City, Utah

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Shauna Graves-Robertson recalls her earliest childhood memories

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Shauna Graves-Robertson describes the sights, sounds, and smells of growing up in Salt Lake City, Utah

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Shauna Graves-Robertson talks about her religious upbringing

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Shauna Graves-Robertson recalls her years at Jefferson Elementary School in Salt Lake City, Utah

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Shauna Graves-Robertson describes her teachers and interests at Northwest Junior High School and West High School in Salt Lake City, Utah

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Shauna Graves-Robertson remembers watching 'Perry Mason' as a child and imagining herself as a lawyer

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Shauna Graves-Robertson describes her high school trip to New Zealand, pt. 1

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Shauna Graves-Robertson describes her high school trip to New Zealand, pt. 2

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Shauna Graves-Robertson talks about her decision to attend Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Shauna Graves-Robertson describes her internship with Utah Senator Orrin Hatch in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Shauna Graves-Robertson talks about joining Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Shauna Graves-Robertson describes her decision to major in criminal justice at Arizona State University in Tempe

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Shauna Graves-Robertson describes studying abroad in Great Britain

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Shauna Graves-Robertson describes people of color in Great Britain during the late 1970s and early 1980s

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Shauna Graves-Robertson talks about Washington, D.C. during HistoryMaker Marion Barry's mayoral tenure

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Shauna Graves-Robertson describes working at the Utah Department of Youth Corrections

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Shauna Graves-Robertson talks about heading the Utah State Office of Black Affairs from 1984 to 1987

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Shauna Graves-Robertson talks about issues facing African Americans in Utah, and her decision to attend law school

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Shauna Graves-Robertson talks about pursuing theater before returning to the S.J. Quinney School College of Law at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Shauna Graves-Robertson describes working as a diversity trainer and motivational speaker in Salt Lake City, Utah

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Shauna Graves-Robertson describes how she met her husband, John Robertson

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Shauna Graves-Robertson describes working as a legal defender for the Salt Lake Legal Defenders Association

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Shauna Graves-Robertson talks about crime and crystal methamphetamine in Salt Lake County, Utah

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Shauna Graves-Robertson lists the legal associations to which she belongs

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Shauna Graves-Robertson talks about the Alberta Henry Education Foundation in Utah

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Shauna Graves-Robertson describes her appointment as Utah's first African-American female judge

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Shauna Graves-Robertson describes her experiences and judicial philosophy

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Shauna Graves-Robertson describes her most difficult cases

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Shauna Graves-Robertson talks about her hopes and concerns for the African-American community

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Shauna Graves-Robertson reflects upon her legacy

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Shauna Graves-Robertson describes her family

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Shauna Graves-Robertson talks about how she would like to be remembered

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Shauna Graves-Robertson narrates her photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

1$3

DAStory

4$6

DATitle
Shauna Graves-Robertson recounts her mother's migration to Ogden, Utah
Shauna Graves-Robertson talks about heading the Utah State Office of Black Affairs from 1984 to 1987
Transcript
Now is there a story about how your mother [Augustine Coleman Morgan] or what motivated her to migrate to Salt Lake City [Utah]?$$Well, there were four of them, friends, all coming from Forth Worth [Texas] headed towards Los Angeles [California]. They stopped here to work of course. During that time, Ogden, Utah, was a railroad town. There were lots of military instillations in the area. There were the coal mines which were very close in Price [Utah] and in Wyoming and so they came here to work. Work was good. And her friend went on to Los Angeles and he stayed in Los Angeles until he died, Mr. George Hines, and my mother stayed in Ogden, Utah, and stayed here in the state until she died.$$Okay, all right. Can you give us--now are there--so there--would she talk about what Ogden was like to her after coming from Texas? I guess Utah would be very different from Texas.$$It was different, but, but Ogden was a pretty, was a hotbed. There was a lot going on in Ogden. You had, you know, the porters and waiters. You had a big railroad community and so there was a, there was a pretty well-established African-American Community not far from the railroad station, so although it was certainly smaller it wasn't home, but it was, there was a lot happening in Ogden at that time.$$Now, other people have mentioned Ogden, to us during this visit to Utah, what was the black community of Ogden like? I hear it's gone now. You really can't find anything anymore. It's, it's has been developed over--$$There's still a few. There, you know, there's still a few, but where this would have been there's, there's very little. There, there are still some churches. There are still some old families there that have stayed in Ogden and remained in Ogden, but you had a lot of social clubs, a lot of night life. Ogden was a booming, booming town, more like a little San Francisco [California] type of an area--$$Okay.$$--and a lot went on in Ogden.$$So, would the major black vaudeville acts show up there, you know, like what they call the "Chitlin Cir, Circuit" acts and that sort of--$$You had, you had all, yes all those that showed. You had, my mother said you had Nat King Cole and you know so you had all of those individuals that came on the "Chitlin Circuit" came through Ogden, so it was, it was a whole different place. It was more the place for African Americans than Salt Lake City. Salt Lake City's black population grew probably in the '50s [1950s] or so, '60s [1960s], '70s [1970s], but prior to probably the 1960s the real hotbed in the state of Utah for African Americans would have been Ogden, Utah.$$Okay, all right. You put it better than anybody else.$Now in '84 [1984], from '84 [1984] to '87 [1987], well in '84 [1984] you were appointed by [Utah] Governor Scott M. Matheson to head the State Office of Black Affairs--$$Yes.$$--now how did you--now this is a pretty fast rise from, you'd just been out of college for four years, but your, you know the State Office of Black Affairs seems like a real big deal to most people, but is it--$$Well, again this is a tight-knit community. This is at, at least for me the nurturing was ever present. If there was something that they thought that I could do or that I wanted to do there was gonna be somebody that would make a call. It would either be Reverend Davis or Ms. Henry or Dr. Coleman or Dr. Refisha (ph.) Adams, you know they were, they were gonna make those inroads. And so when that position became available, Ms. Linda Dupont Johnson had, had preceded me, when that position became available I had been with Youth Corrections and again I knew I wanted to do something a little different, I, and I had sat, I believe I had sat for a year on the Black Advisory Council, so I knew a little bit about the position, not a lot, but I simply talked to the people that I knew and they got the application up there and I had an opportunity, they got me to the governor, they could get me that far. They got me to the governor, and Governor Matheson and I just clicked and that was that.$$Now, now what is the Black Advisory Council?$$What it is, it is the link between the governor and the African-American community. It started out with Governor Calvin Rampton and at time was actually a position in the governor's office as part of the governor's staff. As years went on, it, you know moved to the Department of Community and Economic Developments and some other kinds of things, but Governor Rampton was very close to the African-American community and always wanted to keep an ear to the ground. And so he started the position, and Governor Matheson maintained the position and all governors since have you know have at least made, have at, have at least had someone in the position as that link, as that go-between if you will. But, what we have found particularly with the current governor, is that he's his own link. He, he feels very comfortable about conversing and being with the community in his own right. We've had some governors that did that better than others. Governor Matheson, Governor Rampton, the two Democratic governors, of course, were closer to the community, then the next two governors were Republican governors. The governor we have now [Jon Huntsman, Jr.] is a Republican governor, but seems to again be very comfortable. He's maintained the position, but if he needs something from the community he, he makes those inroads himself.$$Okay, so you, you were as a head of the State Office of Black Affairs, then did you preside over the council, the Black Advisory Council?$$The Black Advisory Council--$$Okay.$$--they were my advisory council, so I was actually, to say preside over, I mean I worked with them. I actually staffed that council.$$Okay, so you know a level of super, you know of at least ma, maintain the structure so they can--$$Yes, yes, yes.$$--meet and yeah okay. Now I've heard there is now a Samoan Advisory Council--$$Yes.$$--a Tongan Advise, Advisory--$$Yes.$$--Council, Mexican--$$Yes,$$--and, and Paiute I mean, you know, I can go on and on, right.$$At that time, there was Indian Affairs, Black Affairs, I believe Hispanic Affairs, and Asian Affairs, but some of those have broken out into different sub groups, because we have a very large Pacific Islander population that felt that they needed a voice. There, there's of course more than one tribe represented in this area, so you've had that type of a subdivision that have come from the original four councils.$$Okay.

The Honorable Jock Smith

Attorney, law professor, municipal court judge, and trial lawyer Jock Michael Smith was born on June 10, 1948, in New York City to Betty Lou Nance Bowers and Jacob Smith. Despite the untimely death of his father in 1956, Smith still excelled academically, receiving his B.S. degree from Tuskegee University in 1970 and his J.D. degree from the University of Notre Dame’s Law School on May 20, 1973.

After receiving his law degree, Smith then became a legal advisor to the NAACP’s Civil Rights Project in Broome County, New York. A year later, Smith moved to Alabama, and in 1977, he became the assistant attorney general for Montgomery, Alabama. That same year, Smith opened his own law firm in Tuskegee, Alabama where he represented plaintiffs and defendants in both criminal and civil suits until 1998. In 1987, Smith became a city municipal judge in Camp Hill, Alabama, and spent two years on the bench. In 1990, he became County Attorney in Macon County, Alabama. He represented the county in all legal matters for fifteen years. In 1993, Smith worked as an administrative law judge for Alabama’s Department of Environmental Management. The following year, he founded Scoring For Life, Inc., a non-profit organization that encourages teens, children and adults with motivational messages. In 1997, Smith became a principal stockholder and sports agent for Cochran Sports Management while working alongside Johnnie L. Cochran Jr. A year later, Smith joined Cochran at the firm of Cochran, Cherry, Givens & Smith, P.C. in Tuskegee, Alabama as a senior partner. In 1999, he also became a play-by-play announcer for Tuskegee University's Tiger Football and the Tuskegee Community Network. In addition to his legal career, Smith also taught at State University of New York at Binghamton and Tuskegee Institute.

Smith has received numerous awards, including honorary doctorates of Divinity Degrees from the Pentecostal Bible College, Tuskegee, Alabama and the Montgomery Bible Institute and Theological Center, Montgomery, Alabama, and keys to the cities of New Orleans, Louisiana, Memphis, Tennessee and Flint, Michigan. He has been recognized by the Alabama Trial Lawyers Association for tireless dedication and unwavering commitment, inducted into the Million Dollar Advocates Forum and received the Inaugural Johnnie L. Cochran, Jr. Journey to Justice Award in 2005 at the National Bar Association Convention. "The Martindale-Hubbell" legal publication has given Smith its highest rating, the AV Rating, and "Lawdragon" Legal Magazine in Los Angeles, California selected him as one of America’s Top 500 Trial Litigators in 2006 and 2007. Smith was inducted onto the President’s Advisory Council of the National Wildlife Federation (NWF), making him the first African American to serve on that board. In 2002, he published his autobiography entitled, "Climbing Jacob’s ladder: a Trial Lawyer’s Journey in Behalf of the ‘Least of These’."

Jock Smith passed away on January 8, 2012.

Jock Smith was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on September 5, 2007.

Accession Number

A2007.245

Sex

Male

Interview Date

9/5/2007

Last Name

Smith

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Middle Name

Michael

Schools

Andrew Jackson High School

P.S. 15 Jackie Robinson School

I.S. 59 Springfield Gardens

Tuskegee University

Norte Dame Law School

First Name

Jock

Birth City, State, Country

New York

HM ID

SMI20

Favorite Season

Summer

Sponsor

Sylvia Dale Cochran

State

New York

Favorite Vacation Destination

New York, New York, Las Vegas

Favorite Quote

Civility Is Never A Sign Of Weakness And Sincerity Is Always Subject To Scrutiny.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Alabama

Birth Date

6/10/1948

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Tuskegee

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Crab Legs

Death Date

1/8/2012

Short Description

Law professor, attorney, and municipal court judge The Honorable Jock Smith (1948 - 2012 ) was senior partner at Cochran, Cherry, Givens & Smith, P.C. in Tuskegee, Alabama. He was a former judge for the State of Alabama and wrote his autobiography entitled "Climbing Jacob’s Ladder: a Trial Lawyer’s Journey in Behalf of the ‘Least of These’."

Employment

United States Customs Court

Police Youth Involvement Program

Urban League of South Bend and St. Joseph County

National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) Civil Rights Project

State University of New York at Binghamton

Tuskegee University

State of Alabama

Camphill Communities of North America

Law offices of Jock M. Smith

Alabama Department of Environmental Management

Macon County

Scoring for Life, Inc.

National Law firm of Cochran, Cherry, Givens & Smith, P.C.

Tuskegee Community Network

Cochran Sports Management

Main Sponsor
Favorite Color

Green

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of The Honorable Jock Smith's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - The Honorable Jock Smith lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - The Honorable Jock Smith describes his mother's upbringing

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - The Honorable Jock Smith describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - The Honorable Jock Smith describes his maternal grandmother

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - The Honorable Jock Smith recalls his relationship with his father

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - The Honorable Jock Smith remembers his father's death

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - The Honorable Jock Smith describes lessons from his father

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - The Honorable Jock Smith describes his father's education

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - The Honorable Jock Smith describes his mother's personality and his likeness to her

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - The Honorable Jock Smith describes his paternal grandmother

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - The Honorable Jock Smith talks about his paternal uncles

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - The Honorable Jock Smith describes his father's U.S. military service

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - The Honorable Jock Smith explains the origin of his name

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - The Honorable Jock Smith describes how his parents met

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - The Honorable Jock Smith describes his father as a young man

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - The Honorable Jock Smith describes his father's life in New York City

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - The Honorable Jock Smith describes his earliest childhood memory

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - The Honorable Jock Smith describes his neighbors on Nashville Boulevard in Queens, New York

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - The Honorable Jock Smith describes the sights, sounds and smells of his childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 11 - The Honorable Jock Smith remembers P.S. 15 in Queens, New York

Tape: 2 Story: 12 - The Honorable Jock Smith recalls his childhood activities

Tape: 2 Story: 13 - The Honorable Jock Smith describes the demographics of his schools in Queens, New York

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - The Honorable Jock Smith remembers J.H.S. 59, Springfield Gardens School in Queens, New York

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - The Honorable Jock Smith recalls his experiences at Andrew Jackson High School in Queens, New York

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - The Honorable Jock Smith recalls his decision to attend the Tuskegee Institute in Tuskegee, Alabama

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - The Honorable Jock Smith remembers his experiences at the Tuskegee Institute

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - The Honorable Jock Smith describes what he learned at Tuskegee Institute

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - The Honorable Jock Smith remembers his classmates at the Tuskegee Institute

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - The Honorable Jock Smith talks about Tuskegee Institute President Luther Foster, Jr.

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - The Honorable Jock Smith remembers his medical exemption from the draft

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - The Honorable Jock Smith describes his academic success at the Tuskegee Institute in Tuskegee, Alabama

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - The Honorable Jock Smith remembers his extracurricular activities at the Tuskegee Institute

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - The Honorable Jock Smith remembers Gwendolyn Patton

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - The Honorable Jock Smith recalls his decision to attend law school

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - The Honorable Jock Smith recalls how he paid for his undergraduate tuition

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - The Honorable Jock Smith remembers working for Judge James Watson

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - The Honorable Jock Smith recalls his experiences of discrimination at the University of Notre Dame Law School in South Bend, Indiana

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - The Honorable Jock Smith remembers his graduation from the University of Notre Dame Law School

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - The Honorable Jock Smith talks about his experiences of racism

Tape: 4 Story: 10 - The Honorable Jock Smith recalls working for the Urban League of South Bend and St. Joseph County

Tape: 4 Story: 11 - The Honorable Jock Smith recalls working for the NAACP in Binghamton, New York

Tape: 4 Story: 12 - The Honorable Jock Smith remembers teaching law at the Tuskegee Institute

Tape: 4 Story: 13 - The Honorable Jock Smith recalls joining the State of Alabama Office of the Attorney General

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - The Honorable Jock Smith recalls his judgeships

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - The Honorable Jock Smith remembers the case of the State of Alabama v. Donell Williams

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - The Honorable Jock Smith recalls his historic victory in an insurance fraud case, pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - The Honorable Jock Smith recalls his historic victory in an insurance fraud case, pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - The Honorable Jock Smith recalls protecting a client from wrongful eviction

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - The Honorable Jock Smith talks about his motivation as a lawyer

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - The Honorable Jock Smith remembers his recommitment to Christianity

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - The Honorable Jock Smith remembers joining the Christian Life Church in Montgomery, Alabama

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - The Honorable Jock Smith remembers meeting Johnnie Cochran

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - The Honorable Jock Smith remembers meeting Keith Givens and Sam Cherry

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - The Honorable Jock Smith remembers establishing the law firm of Cochran, Cherry, Givens and Smith

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - The Honorable Jock Smith recalls the case of Tolbert v. Monsanto Company

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - The Honorable Jock Smith remembers Johnnie Cochran

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - The Honorable Jock Smith remembers Robert Jeter et al. v. Orkin Exterminating Company, Inc., pt. 1

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - The Honorable Jock Smith remembers Robert Jeter et al. v. Orkin Exterminating Company, Inc., pt. 2

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - The Honorable Jock Smith remembers representing Carolyn Whittaker

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - The Honorable Jock Smith reflects upon his awards and influences

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - The Honorable Jock Smith talks about the law firm of Cochran, Cherry, Givens and Smith

Tape: 6 Story: 10 - The Honorable Jock Smith remembers meeting his second wife

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - The Honorable Jock Smith describes his wife, Yvette Smiley-Smith

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - The Honorable Jock Smith describes his daughter, Janay Smith

Tape: 7 Story: 3 - The Honorable Jock Smith talks about Cochran Sports Management, LLC

Tape: 7 Story: 4 - The Honorable Jock Smith talks about his collection of historical artifacts

Tape: 7 Story: 5 - The Honorable Jock Smith talks about the significance of sports history

Tape: 7 Story: 6 - The Honorable Jock Smith talks about writing his autobiography

Tape: 7 Story: 7 - The Honorable Jock Smith describes his concerns for the African American community

Tape: 7 Story: 8 - The Honorable Jock Smith reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 7 Story: 9 - The Honorable Jock Smith shares a message to future generations

Tape: 8 Story: 1 - The Honorable Jock Smith narrates his photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

5$6

DAStory

4$2

DATitle
The Honorable Jock Smith recalls his historic victory in an insurance fraud case, pt. 2
The Honorable Jock Smith remembers establishing the law firm of Cochran, Cherry, Givens and Smith
Transcript
And the thing is in closing argument to the jury I remember telling the jury this, "You know normally ladies and gentlemen look at all these lawyers they have over there against me and my client and I would be dwarfed by their presence," I said, "but I'm a Bible toting Christian and I brought my sling shot to court with me, ladies and gentlemen. You know my Bible tells me ladies and gentlemen that Jesus spoke in John 10:10 and told us that the thief would come in the night to kill, steal, and destroy, but I have come to give you life and to give you joy abundantly. That must mean that there, that, that, that somewhere there's a robber and a thief somewhere in this courtroom ladies and gentlemen and there they sit." The jury returned a verdict in twenty minutes of $5 million. It was the largest verdict, one of the largest verdicts in the history of the state at the time and the largest verdict an African American lawyer had ever gotten in Alabama. And I rode that verdict for many years. I also remember telling the jury, "Ladies and gentlemen Miller Ephraim has died, but fortunately we were able to read his deposition to you. You know when Knute Rockne went to see George Gipp one day in his hospital room and he was dying, he told him, 'One day when you really need to win a game tell him to win one for me.' Notre Dame [Notre Dame Fighting Irish] was playing in a national championship game against Army [Army West Point Black Knights] and they were behind twelve to nothing at halftime as the story is told. Knute Rockne went into that locker room and told the Fighting Irish what he had to tell them about the story of George Gipp that day and he said, 'Win one for the Gipper.' Ladies and gentlemen, Miller Ephraim is looking down on these proceedings today. He sits with Jesus along the right hand of the Father and expects you to bring him good news based on your verdict; win one for the Miller now." And the jury did. And I sat there for about five or ten minutes after the court was over. A gentleman who was an elected official came to me and said, "Jock [HistoryMaker Jock Smith] do you realize you won the biggest case a black lawyer has ever won in Alabama, but you're sitting there, you haven't moved since the verdict. You should be jumping up and down and be excited." I saw my whole life flash in front of me. I saw my father's [Jacob Smith] death. I heard the edict, "You'll be a good garbage worker." I remember, "You have a gift to speak." All this stuff flashed in front of me and I thanked the Lord for blessing me that day on December 15th, 1988, about four o'clock in the afternoon when the jury not only said $5 million, but said something more important: well done my good and faithful servant. That was the day I knew I had beaten everything that Mr. Stein [ph.] had told my mother [Betty Lou Bowers Nance]. There was no doubt in my mind that was it when the jury, when that foreman of that jury stood up and said $5 million I knew then that I had accomplished something significant. And those were the two cases I most remember before my partnership with Johnnie Cochran. There were some others that I won and settled and made money and it was not making money, it's more to life than that I could tell you about, but it's not gonna tell you about that 'cause that's really not what HistoryMakers [The HistoryMakers] is really about. It's not about money in your pocket, it's about people that you've helped. I've given you some indication.$We started in Columbus, Georgia, because there was a gentleman there named Joe Wiley [Joseph Wiley] that had a preacher, a black preacher who, who was recommending to Givens [Keith Givens]. Though that office only stayed open a year, it didn't live out the true creed of its meaning as the Declaration of Independence says. It still became a cornerstone of the beginnings of Cochran, Cherry, Givens, Smith [Cochran, Cherry, Givens and Smith; The Cochran Firm]. We then merged my Tuskegee [Alabama] office, the Dothan [Alabama] office of Cherry and Givens and the Los Angeles [California] office of Johnnie L. Cochran, Jr. [Johnnie Cochran]. His three other offices in the firm probably six months after the origins of July of '98 [1998], so by January of '99 [1999] we were probably sitting with, we were sitting with four offices, Columbus, Georgia; Tuskegee, Alabama; Dothan Alabama; Los Angeles, California. Johnnie had continued his relationship with Peter Neufeld and Barry Scheck, the DNA experts, after the O.J. trial [People of the State of California v. Orenthal James Simpson, 1995] and had some kind of arrangement with them in New York [New York]. Six months later after the, so this would have been about a year later, after July of '98 [1998], Johnnie turned over that office to us, so then we had New York as well. He began to trust us, began to entrust more to us based on our earned respect and comradeship together. Cherry [Sam Cherry] and Givens are two white men, so I was the only black, only African American partner in this venture. We began to speak with people in larger cities that we had identified. We kind of redlined the United States, in so called Cochran friendly cities. We had, and the list probably had fifteen, twenty cities on there. We categorized them by priority. Near the top of the list was Atlanta [Georgia]. Chicago [Illinois] was near the top of the list. The District of Columbia [Washington, D.C.] was near the top, and there were some others, I think Memphis [Tennessee] and New Orleans [Louisiana] may have been near the top, Philadelphia [Pennsylvania], some others. And what we began to do was go into these cities and interview these perspective lawyers that we identified based on references that would be good for us and for our operations, to run our operations in these cities. These are lawyers who already had existing firms that were already successful. We didn't take any neophytes on; we took existing lawyers. In, in Atlanta, we selected this Hezekiah Sistrunk [Hezekiah Sistrunk, Jr.] who you know, and in Chicago we selected Jim Montgomery [HistoryMaker James D. Montgomery] who you also know. So, other cities we selected other people. We began to put these offices together. Now I was one of the people that would go and interview these people and I would help make the selections. Like if it got down to a taffy pool I'd go in and say, "You know Johnnie I think we need to go with Jim Montgomery in Chicago. We, we don't, don't need to go with Corboy and Demetrio." Somebody try to say "Ca- ." I said, "No, no, no, no this is an African American firm, no we need to go with Jim Montgomery," and I had to fight for that. I had to fight some of my partners--I won't name them, but I had to fight them 'cause of Jim's age is another thing. They said, "He's too old." "No, no, no, no, no, no this man will be good." Turned out to be right. Same thing in Atlanta, Hezekiah Sistrunk was my choice there. There was another man who was being considered. I said, "No, no we don't need that man. His personal conduct is very questionable. I've seen some things. We don't want this in the firm. Hezekiah Sistrunk." So, we put, we handpicked these people and, and we made some mistakes like any other firm, but we made a lot better choices than we made poor choices and that has sustained the firm and the firm grew to seventeen offices before Johnnie's death. We had opened in New Orleans and St. Louis [Missouri] were the last two offices we opened before Johnnie expired this earth with the Lord--went on to be with the Lord. We had opened D.C. We'd opened Memphis. We'd opened Las Vegas [Nevada]. We, of course as I mentioned already Chicago, Atlanta, and there were others. Los Angeles and New York were already up and running, so we had most of the major cities. We still didn't have Philadelphia. In fact, I would say the only major cities we didn't have at Johnnie's death probably, that I call major African American cities would be probably Philadelphia and Chica- not Chicago, Detroit [Michigan]. We've since opened up in those cities, but we had not at the time of Johnnie's--at the time Johnnie was living.

The Honorable Frankie Freeman

Civil rights lawyer, Frankie Muse Freeman was born Marie Frankie Muse on November 24, 1916 in Danville, Virginia. Her parents, Maude Beatrice Smith Muse and William Brown Muse, came from college-educated families. Her relatives included Charles Sumner Muse, Edward Muse and Clarence Muse. Freeman grew up in Danville where she attended Westmoreland School and learned to play the piano. At age sixteen, Freeman enrolled in her mother’s alma mater, Hampton Institute, which she attended between 1933 and 1936. While in New York, Freeman met and married Shelby T. Freeman. In 1944, she was admitted to Howard University Law School where William H. Hastie and Spottswood Robinson were on the faculty. Freeman graduated second in her class in 1947.

Upon graduating from law school, Freeman set up her law offices in the Jefferson Bank Building in June of 1949 and became engaged in the Civil Rights Movement. Freeman was a part of an NAACP legal brain trust, which included Sidney Redmond, Robert Witherspoon and Henry Espy in the NAACP’s 1949 Brewton v. the Board of Education of St. Louis, following the case to victory in the Supreme Court of the State of Missouri. In 1954, the same year as Brown v. the Board of Education, Freeman was the lead attorney for the landmark NAACP case Davis et al v. the St. Louis Housing Authority, which ended legal racial discrimination in public housing. In 1955, Freeman became the first associate general counsel of the St. Louis Housing Authority and Land Clearance Authority. In 1958, she became a charter member of the Missouri advisory committee to the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights. Freeman provided NAACP counsel to CORE activists demonstrating against hiring discrimination policies at Jefferson Bank. In March of 1964, she was appointed by President Lyndon Johnson as the first female member of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights. Freeman served as a commissioner for sixteen years, and later as Inspector General for the Community Services Administration during the Carter Administration. Freeman was also a municipal court judge in the early 1970s. In 1982, Freeman helped form a bipartisan Citizens Commission on Civil Rights to monitor the federal government’s enforcement of laws barring discrimination. Freeman was a practicing attorney for more than fifty years.

Freeman was a Trustee Emeritus of the Board of Trustees of Howard University, past Chairman of the Board of Directors of the National Council on Aging, Inc. and the Urban League of Metropolitan St. Louis. She was also a board member of the United Way of Greater St. Louis, the Metropolitan Zoological Park and Museum District and the St. Louis Center for International Relations. She was the author of A Song of Faith and Hope: The Life of Frankie Muse Freeman and past national president of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc. Freeman also received several honorary doctorate degrees from institutions that include Hampton University, Washington University and Howard University. She was inducted into the National Bar Association’s Hall of Fame in 1990.

Freeman passed away on January 12, 2018 at age 101.

Accession Number

A2006.183

Sex

Female

Interview Date

12/19/2006

Last Name

Freeman

Maker Category
Schools

Westmoreland School

Hampton University

Howard University School of Law

First Name

Frankie

Birth City, State, Country

Danville

HM ID

FRE05

Favorite Season

Christmas

State

Virginia

Favorite Vacation Destination

Anywhere Warm, Cape Town, South Africa

Favorite Quote

Do Your Homework.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Missouri

Birth Date

11/24/1916

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

St. Louis

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Soul Food

Death Date

1/12/2018

Short Description

Civil rights lawyer and municipal court judge The Honorable Frankie Freeman (1916 - 2018 ) was a former municipal court judge for St. Louis, Missouri and was the first female member of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights. Freeman was the lead attorney for the NAACP case, Davis et al v. St. Louis Housing Authority.

Employment

the U.S. Department of Treasury’s Office of Price Administration

Frankie Freeman, private practice

State of Missouri

St. Louis Housing Authority

U.S. Commission on Civil Rights

Community Services Administration

Montgomery Hollie and Associates, LLC.

Citizens Commission on Civil Rights

Favorite Color

Red

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of The Honorable Frankie Freeman

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman describes her mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman recalls the black businesses in Danville, Virginia

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman talks about her mother's education and profession

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman describes her father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman remembers her paternal grandfather, Frank Muse

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman recalls the independence of the black community in Danville, Virginia

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman describes her father's education and profession

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman recalls how her parents met and married

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman lists her siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 12 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman describes her earliest childhood memory

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman describes her neighborhood in Danville, Virginia

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman remembers segregation in Danville, Virginia

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman recalls her early musical talents

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman describes her early education

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman recalls her decision to attend the Hampton Institute in Hampton, Virginia

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman describes her experience at the Hampton Institute

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman remembers African American lawyer Sadie Tanner Mossell Alexander

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman shares a story about the Hampton Institute in Hampton, Virginia

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman recalls applying to St. John's College of Law in New York City

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman remembers meeting her husband, Shelby Freeman, Jr.

Tape: 2 Story: 11 - The Honorable Frankie Muse Freeman recalls her decision to apply to Howard University Law School in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman recalls her acceptance to Howard University School of Law in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman remembers registering for her final year of law school

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman recalls graduating from Howard University School of Law

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman remembers her mentors at Howard University School of Law

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman talks about starting her law firm in St. Louis, Missouri

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman remembers the Jefferson Bank and Trust Company

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman recalls other black female professionals in St. Louis, Missouri

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman remembers Brewten v. the Board of Education of St. Louis, 1950

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman talks about Davis et al. v. the St. Louis Housing Authority, 1955

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman remembers Constance Baker Motley

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman describes her position as a Missouri assistant attorney general

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman recalls being hired by the St. Louis Housing Authority

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman remembers the effects of Brown v. the Board of Education of Topeka, 1954 in St. Louis, Missouri

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman remembers notable civil rights attorneys

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman talks about desegregation in St. Louis, Missouri

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman remembers the Pruitt Igoe housing project in St. Louis, Missouri

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman talks about her activism in St. Louis, Missouri

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman recalls her nomination to the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights

Tape: 4 Story: 10 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman recalls her U.S. Senate confirmation to the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights

Tape: 4 Story: 11 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman remembers her first hearing for the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman describes her experience at the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman reflects upon the Civil Rights Act of 1964

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman remembers President Lyndon Baines Johnson's administration

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman talks about the importance of affirmative action

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman recalls her presidency of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc.

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman remembers President Richard Milhous Nixon's administration

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman recalls leaving the St. Louis Housing Authority

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman reflects upon President James Earl "Jimmy" Carter, Jr.'s administration

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman recalls her work for Native American rights

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman remembers her discrimination case against Southern Illinois University Edwardsville

Tape: 5 Story: 11 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman recalls her appointment as inspector general for the Community Services Administration

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman recalls her dismissal as inspector general for the Community Services Administration

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman talks about the mismanagement of funds in public agencies

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman remembers William Clay, Sr.'s congressional election

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman recalls forming the Citizens Commission on Civil Rights

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman remembers Clarence Thomas' nomination to the U.S. Supreme Court, pt. 1

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman remembers Clarence Thomas' nomination to the U.S. Supreme Court, pt. 2

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman talks about her work in private practice

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman reflects upon her life

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman describes her hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 6 Story: 10 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman reflects upon her legacy

Tape: 6 Story: 11 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman describes her family

Tape: 6 Story: 12 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman talks about her organizational involvement

Tape: 6 Story: 13 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman describes how she would like to be remembered

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman narrates her photographs, pt. 1

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - The Honorable Frankie Freeman narrates her photographs, pt. 2

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$3

DAStory

2$8

DATitle
The Honorable Frankie Freeman remembers registering for her final year of law school
The Honorable Frankie Freeman remembers Brewten v. the Board of Education of St. Louis, 1950
Transcript
Because I would get up in the morning very early, I would, I would, I'd get up like at three o'clock and do--and, and study. In the meantime however, there were a group of us (unclear) about four of us who were, you know, a study team. We would study to, all of us were pretty much around the same age at that time and same interests and so we studied together actually. And so I did very well and then my second year I became pregnant and so I still got through the second year but the baby was due in, in September which would be the beginning of my senior year. And the summer was fine because you see I was out of school and so I at least could do, do all of the things that I would ordinarily be doing. But class was to start in September the 10th and I knew my son [Shelby Freeman III] was due soon in September. So I wrote to--in the meantime Dean Hastie [William H. Hastie] had been appointed governor of the [U.S.] Virgin Islands so we had a new dean, Dean Johnson [George M. Johnson]. So I wrote to him in August and asked for permission to register late--to register after my baby was born and he wrote to me and reminded me of the rules that I couldn't do that and that only the university registrar could make that decision. So I--on the date of the--of September 10th Shelby [Freeman's husband, Shelby Freeman, Jr.] took me--by the time, I don't know what the arrangement was but anyway he took me up there and left me and I went over to the university registrar and filled out the form and asked to be, to register, you know, to register late. Dean Wilkerson [ph.] who was the registrar looked at me and he said, "Mrs. Freeman [HistoryMaker Frankie Freeman] I think you should stay out a year and come back after your baby is born." Well the war [World War II, WWII] was ending this was in '44 [1944] and I knew that my husband who was a St. Louisian that the decision was that we were coming to St. Louis [Missouri] and so I was afraid--I couldn't afford that, I couldn't take that chance. So I said thank you and then I came on back over to the law school [Howard University School of Law, Washington, D.C.] and stood in line to register and all of the people who were ahead of me to register immediately dropped out and got behind me and I registered. As soon as I had registered Ms. Cooper [ph.], Dean Johnson's special (unclear) secretary came to me and said, "Dean Johnson wants to see you." So when I went into his office he said, "Now Mrs. Freeman you have registered and I want you to know that you are already in good standing so you can go home and after your baby is born and your doctor releases you then you may return to school because I think your team will probably help you during that time." So I, I called Shelby and he came and picked me up and my son was born four days later on, on the, the 14th.$Tell us about Brewton versus the Board of Education [Brewton v. Board of Education of St. Louis, 1950].$$Oh. That was the first civil rights case in which I participated with three other lawyers, civil rights, well established Sidney Redmond [Sidney R. Redmond] and Henry Espy [Henry D. Espy] and Robert Witherspoon. And when I came to St. Louis [Missouri] and I opened my office and I joined the NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People] and I went to see them and I said, "I would be willing to work with you if any cases come." In--St. Louis had still segregated black, white in Washington Technical High School [Booker T. Washington Technical High School, St. Louis, Missouri] they had a little quote, separate but equal. Had courses that I think--they had both of them automobile and mechanics and Hadley Technical High School [St. Louis, Missouri] also had automobile mechanics but then they started a course in airplane mechanics. That hit the news and so there were three brothers who by that time there was excitement about the planes and everything. They read this and they told their parents, "We want to go, we want to take that course." So he did what parents do, he went even though he knew what the situation was he went to the school and was turned down, went to the board was turned down. They came to the NAACP and so then that's when they told me and I became--yeah I want to be involved in that too. We filed suit in circuit court [22nd Judicial Circuit Court of Missouri] challenging it as unconstitutional even under separate but equal and the judge decided in favor of the three Brewton brothers. So the board of education appealed it to the State of Missouri. Briefs were filed and we travelled to Jefferson City [Missouri], Sidney Redmond argued the case. The supreme court found in favor of--affirmed the case of the circuit court, found in favor of the plaintiffs and issued a mandate to them that they could not have a course in airplane mechanics for white student and not have one for blacks. So the board of education closed down the course for white students.$$So they, they solved it by subtraction?$$They solved it by subtraction and what happened, and of course we never have been able to prove this, but there were, there was a private school that we had been told that the white students went to but we didn't, but we never of course pursued that. What happened however, the three Brewton brothers during then did get trained, but they got trained to the [U.S.] military the Korean War. They got trained and one of the brothers even became an assistant manager of the FAA [Federal Aviation Administration] out in St. Louis and when he was talking and during the time several years later when I was talking about this case and somebody told him about it he called me and he told me that he was talking to his supervisor telling him about his experience and how he had gotten to be, how he had gotten his training. And then he learned that the supervisor was a student at Hadley at the time that he was, you know, was denied admission. But by that time they had become good friends and all so he shared his experience.$$It's ironic.$$Yeah.$$So the next, I guess, big case--now this is, this one went all the way to, to, to the Supreme Court of Missouri, right?$$Yeah that went to the Supreme Court of Missouri.

The Honorable Wayman Smith

City councilman, judge and Anheuser Busch executive Wayman Flynn Smith, III, was born June 18, 1940, in St. Louis, Missouri; his father, Wayman, II, and his mother, Edith Maux Smith were college educated. Wayman Smith, II, was the first black certified public accountant in Missouri and later served as a city councilman. Growing up in the area where Dick Gregory and Grace Bumbry were raised, Smith attended Washington Elementary School, Sumner High School, and graduated from Soldan International Studies High School in 1957. Smith began his collegiate career at Washington University but graduated from Monmouth College in New Jersey in 1962. Smith went on to graduate from Howard University Law School in 1965.

Mentored by St. Louis attorneys Margaret Bush Wilson and Frankie Freeman, Smith worked on housing legislation for the Missouri Commission on Human Rights in 1966; this legislation designated the real estate office as a place of public accommodation. Smith entered into private practice in 1968; in 1970, he was appointed a City Court Judge, serving until 1975. Smith then served on the St. Louis City Council from 1975 to 1987 and was once president of the council’s Black Caucus. Pressure on Anheuser-Busch by Rev. Jesse Louis Jackson, Sr.’s Operation PUSH, resulted in Anheuser-Busch’s hiring of Smith in 1980 as the first African American member of the Corporate Affairs Department. Working with Augie Busch, Smith created a $200 million minority business development program. Smith eventually became vice president of corporate affairs for Anheuser-Busch Companies, and a member of the board of directors of Anheuser Busch, Inc.

Smith served as a member of the board of directors of Howard University from 1989 to the time of his HistoryMakers interview, and chairman from 1991 to 1995. Smith was senior partner at The Smith Partnership, P.C., St. Louis, Missouri, and a partner in the law firm of Wilson, Smith & McCullin. Smith’s numerous civic board memberships include: the Congressional Black Caucus Foundation; National Urban League; National Association of Sickle Cell Disease, Inc.; St. Louis Symphony; and St. Louis Metropolitan YMCA. Chairman of the Board of Regents of Harris Stowe State College, Smith was also listed in Who’s Who in America and Who’s Who in Black America. Smith held memberships in the American Bar Association, Missouri, Mound City, and National Bar Association, Missouri Chapter.

Accession Number

A2006.180

Sex

Male

Interview Date

12/18/2006

Last Name

Smith

Schools

Soldan International Studies High School

Washington Elementary School

Howard University School of Law

Monmouth University

First Name

Wayman

Birth City, State, Country

St. Louis

HM ID

SMI16

Favorite Season

Summer

State

Missouri

Favorite Vacation Destination

Florida

Favorite Quote

Get It Done.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Missouri

Birth Date

6/18/1940

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

St. Louis

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Barbecue (Ribs)

Short Description

Corporate executive, municipal court judge, and city alderman The Honorable Wayman Smith (1940 - ) was the first African American to work in the Corporate Affairs Department of Anheuser-Busch, where he served as vice president of corporate affairs. He was also senior partner of The Smith Partnership, P.C. and chairman of Howard University's Board of Directors.

Employment

Anheuser-Busch Companies

St. Louis City Council

Peat, Marwick, and Mitchell

Missouri Commission on Human Rights

Favorite Color

Red

Timing Pairs
0,0:12649,247:16744,315:33956,527:35165,543:41792,596:42828,616:44234,648:44974,662:48748,747:49340,766:55704,905:74021,1127:74329,1132:77717,1194:90310,1305:101871,1469:105674,1503:109025,1529:109925,1542:110450,1551:115250,1620:118700,1670:124479,1710:134248,1835:134643,1841:135275,1851:135591,1856:136855,1870:144097,1944:151112,2045:160142,2207:166402,2254:171010,2323:174082,2360:174754,2373:185010,2530:185435,2580:207658,2924:211058,2971:211611,2980:211927,3013:217710,3098:218284,3123:230638,3271:233850,3348$0,0:738,27:1394,36:2378,50:2788,56:6218,117:23617,418:49274,746:52370,869:62162,942:62590,947:65800,1027:72128,1086:74504,1129:75824,1147:81120,1187:81492,1276:98480,1436
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of The Honorable Wayman Smith's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - The Honorable Wayman Smith lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - The Honorable Wayman Smith describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - The Honorable Wayman Smith talks about his maternal family's move from Kentucky to Missouri

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - The Honorable Wayman Smith describes his parents' early education

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - The Honorable Wayman Smith describes his mother and siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - The Honorable Wayman Smith describes his father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - The Honorable Wayman Smith talks about researching his family history

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - The Honorable Wayman Smith describes his family's reluctance to share stories

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - The Honorable Wayman Smith talks about the importance of family values

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - The Honorable Wayman Smith remembers his grandparents' professions

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - The Honorable Wayman Smith describes his neighborhood in St. Louis, Missouri

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - The Honorable Wayman Smith recalls the educational opportunities for St. Louis' African American community

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - The Honorable Wayman Smith describes his father's college experiences

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - The Honorable Wayman Smith talks about the impact of segregation

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - The Honorable Wayman Smith describes his earliest childhood memories

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - The Honorable Wayman Smith recalls the sights, sounds and smells of his childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - The Honorable Wayman Smith reflects upon his childhood in St. Louis, Missouri

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - The Honorable Wayman Smith recalls his introduction to television

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - The Honorable Wayman Smith recalls his activities in high school

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - The Honorable Wayman Smith recalls graduating from Soldan High School in St. Louis, Missouri

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - The Honorable Wayman Smith recalls transferring to Monmouth College in West Long Branch, New Jersey

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - The Honorable Wayman Smith describes his father's campaign for the Board of Aldermen in St. Louis, Missouri

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - The Honorable Wayman Smith recalls working as an elevator operator at the U.S. Capitol, pt. 1

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - The Honorable Wayman Smith recalls working as an elevator operator at the U.S. Capitol

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - The Honorable Wayman Smith remembers Howard University School of Law in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - The Honorable Wayman Smith recalls his civil rights activities at Howard University School of Law

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - The Honorable Wayman Smith remembers when Adam Clayton Powell, Jr. fled the country

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - The Honorable Wayman Smith remembers the Civil Rights Act of 1964

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - The Honorable Wayman Smith recalls his transition to Wall Street

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - The Honorable Wayman Smith recalls joining St. Louis' Board of Aldermen

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - The Honorable Wayman Smith remembers the Missouri Commission on Human Rights

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - The Honorable Wayman Smith describes his law practice in St. Louis, Missouri

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - The Honorable Wayman Smith recalls serving on St. Louis' Board of Aldermen

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - The Honorable Wayman Smith talks about William Clay, Sr.

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - The Honorable Wayman Smith recalls the civil rights issues of the late 1960s

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - The Honorable Wayman Smith describes his work for Anheuser-Busch Companies

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - The Honorable Wayman Smith recalls the Great Kings and Queens of Africa program

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - The Honorable Wyman Smith describes Anheuser-Busch Companies' support for African American organizations

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - The Honorable Wayman Smith talks about Anheuser-Busch Companies distributorships

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - The Honorable Wayman Smith recalls Anheuser-Busch Companies' donations to the United Negro College Fund

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - The Honorable Wayman Smith talks about Anheuser-Busch Companies' operations

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - The Honorable Wayman Smith talks about East St. Louis, Illinois

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - The Honorable Wayman Smith talks about development in East St. Louis, Illinois

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - The Honorable Wayman Smith remmebers Barry Rand

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - The Honorable Wayman Smith recalls Executive Leadership Council's founding

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - The Honorable Wayman Smith describes his friendship with Earl G. Graves, Sr.

Tape: 5 Story: 11 - The Honorable Wayman Smith describes his hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 5 Story: 12 - The Honorable Wayman Smith reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - The Honorable Wayman Smith describes his commitment to education

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - The Honorable Wayman Smith reflects upon his life

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - The Honorable Wayman Smith talks about his family members

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - The Honorable Wayman Smith reflects upon his law career

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - The Honorable Wayman Smith describes how he would like to be remembered

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$4

DAStory

5$5

DATitle
The Honorable Wayman Smith recalls working as an elevator operator at the U.S. Capitol
The Honorable Wayman Smith describes his law practice in St. Louis, Missouri
Transcript
What about those Mississippi guys, Eastland [James Eastland] and Stennis [John C. Stennis], and--they were--$$I didn't meet them but it was interesting when I, the ones I met 'cause you know it was just a matter of luck and I worked at night so I missed a lot of action. And in the daytimes, the elevators were so busy that you never really--one of your jobs was to know when a senator got on your elevator. So you had to know 'em all if you didn't and one got on the elevator--when he got on the elevator your job was to go directly to the floor he wanted to go to. I mean the clerks and the employees and other people who were on the elevator really didn't matter. When a senator got on your elevator you went right to that floor and you're going to be in big trouble if you didn't know who the senator was and you didn't go to that floor. So I found you know you got to know who the heavy hitters were. But it was interesting, the southern senators, the ones who you would believe were most prejudice, most hostile to civil rights people like Strom Thurmond and others. Of course Strom turned out to have had so- had some relationships with the African American community that wasn't well known in those days. There was an old saying that in the South, white people didn't care how close black people got as long as they didn't get too big. In the North, (unclear) white people didn't care how big black people got as long as they didn't get too close. So what happened was that there was, there was a more positive relationship black to white in the South that I observed, even though it was a patronizing relationship and therefore unhealthy. But it was interesting, in the North, white people were not very friendly, but you could get jobs in their countries--in their companies and they viewed you as a peer and they would fight for your right to be a professional and whatever. So s- and the southern white people were very close even to their maids and butlers, but it was in a patronizing relationship and if you translate that to the experience in the [U.S.] Senate the guys like Jacob Javits [Jacob K. Javits] from New York couldn't have been colder, I mean (unclear). The guys who were from the states that I considered bigoted states couldn't have been friendlier. So there was just a different relationship kind of.$$Okay. So how long did you work with them throughout law school [Howard University School of Law, Washington, D.C.], or did--?$$A couple of years, yeah.$$Okay.$$Oh I was at law school three years so I probably worked for at least two years.$$So you were there (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) They made me quit--I know they made me quit it the last year--law school did. The law school had a lot of money and a lot of scholarships and they said well how much money do you need not to have to go to work? Well I told them and they said fine you got it; you don't have to go to work anymore. So I didn't but, but I mean the fact was that my grades were every bit as good when I was working 'cause, 'cause work was study time for me. As a matter fact work was probably better study time once I didn't have to--once I was able to be completely free. I could be a little frivolous but, but when I was at work and couldn't do much, I mean I had to, had to read something might as well read the law book.$Where did you go after the Missouri Commission on Human Rights?$$I came out and started practicing law, started this practice (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) Okay, private practice.$$And I, and I--that was around '68 [1968] or '69 [1969] and I stayed in the private practice and my brother [Christopher Smith, Sr.] came out and joined me after that and some other young lawyers were in this community also joined me, Michael Roberts [HistoryMaker Michael Roberts, Sr.] and Steve Roberts [HistoryMaker Steven Roberts, Sr.] and Georgia Gosling [ph.] and some others who worked for me, Linwood Evans [ph.] and others, and [HistoryMaker] Anne-Marie Clarke. And we all became--came through my office and worked for me and I was working with another lawyer by the name of [HistoryMaker] Margaret Bush Wilson. And Margaret and I had a partnership and all these other young people came through us, Donald McCullin, who is now a circuit judge. So that practice continued. I picked up Anheuser-Busch [Anheuser-Busch Companies] as a client and ultimately represented them in their employment discrimination, which again gets back into that civil rights thing and, and, and once I got involved with that Anheuser-Busch ultimately hired me as a vice president in 1980. I represented them from about 1968 to 1980 and after about twelve years they said you just probably need to come on in here and be one of our vice presidents and I said okay.

The Honorable Lillian Burke

Attorney and retired judge Lillian Walker Burke was born in 1915, and grew up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. After graduating from high school, Burke attended Ohio State University, where she received her bachelor's of science degree in education in 1947. In 1951, she received her law degree from the Cleveland Marshall College of Law, now part of Cleveland State University, and was admitted to the Ohio Bar.

While pursuing her law degree, Burke worked as a teacher in the Cleveland Public Schools. After graduating from law school, Burke served three years as the assistant attorney general, specializing in workmen's compensation. Burke was later appointed to the Ohio Industrial Commission by Governor James Rhodes, and served in that capacity for three years. Burke became the first African American woman to sit on the bench in the State of Ohio with her appointment to the Cleveland Municipal Court in January 1969; she was later elected to that office in November 1969, where she served until her retirement in 1987.

Judge Burke worked with a number of community organizations and voluntary associations, including The Cleveland Restoration Society; the City Planning Commission; the Landmark Commission; The Cleveland Foundation African American Outreach Advisory Committee; the National Council of Negro Women; the City Club; the NAACP; and Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority. Burke also established the Lillian Walker Burke Scholarship for students attending the John Marshall College of Law.

Burke passed away on March 27, 2012 at age 94.

Accession Number

A2004.082

Sex

Female

Interview Date

6/17/2004

Last Name

Burke

Maker Category
Middle Name

W.

Schools

Oliver School

Crawford School

Duquesne Junior High School

Duquesne High School

Duquesne University

The Ohio State University

Cleveland-Marshall College of Law

First Name

Lillian

Birth City, State, Country

Upson County

HM ID

BUR10

Favorite Season

Fall

State

Georgia

Favorite Vacation Destination

None

Favorite Quote

And What Does The Lord Require Of Thee?

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Ohio

Birth Date

8/2/1917

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Cleveland

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Chicken Salad

Death Date

3/27/2012

Short Description

Municipal court judge The Honorable Lillian Burke (1917 - 2012 ) became the first African American woman to sit on the bench in the State of Ohio, when she was appointed to the Cleveland Municipal Court in 1969.

Employment

Cleveland Public Schools

Ohio Industrial Commission

Cleveland Municipal Court

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
0,0:1018,17:1666,39:2098,46:2386,51:4042,111:9298,216:15634,324:22042,498:31930,582:33355,610:41064,720:41434,726:42544,778:42914,784:48908,888:49870,905:51646,934:51942,939:53348,963:54236,977:55050,989:56530,1024:57862,1050:64780,1070:65464,1083:66604,1105:66908,1110:70176,1179:70480,1184:95750,1590:100710,1678:101030,1683:102390,1728:112790,1944:119292,1961:130022,2214:131428,2249:135276,2331:135720,2343:150210,2491:150885,2500:152235,2520:156285,2603:163386,2640:164178,2650:164538,2656:166986,2702:167490,2710:168426,2728:168786,2734:171594,2799:171954,2805:172242,2811:176634,2901:177930,2929:179586,2974:192170,3129:192681,3137:196039,3213:203193,3365:205456,3414:207938,3455:208376,3462:217640,3535$0,0:3170,52:9970,183:16770,352:29898,516:30546,524:31194,533:36864,624:37593,634:42534,705:42858,710:43506,719:43830,724:51897,797:58451,910:65030,952:100537,1419:100813,1426:105261,1458:106808,1481:107263,1488:116036,1596:116324,1601:118916,1653:120500,1686:122156,1722:123380,1746:125468,1792:127484,1824:129572,1834:140510,1940:142205,1947:142655,1954:143780,1968:158970,2206:159370,2211:160970,2240:183090,2594
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of The Honorable Lillian Burke's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - The Honorable Lillian Burke lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - The Honorable Lillian Burke talks about her mother and father's roots in Upson County, Georgia

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - The Honorable Lillian Burke talks about her immediate family

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - The Honorable Lillian Burke remembers her grandparents

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - The Honorable Lillian Burke describes her mother and the beautiful tables she set

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - The Honorable Lillian Burke describes the sights, sounds and smells of her childhood in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - The Honorable Lillian Burke talks about life during the Great Depression in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - The Honorable Lillian Burke talks about her childhood activities

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - The Honorable Lillian Burke describes the lack of African American role models when she was growing up

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - The Honorable Lillian Burke remembers her encouraging fifth grade teacher

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - The Honorable Lillian Burke remembers her home economics class at Duquesne Junior High in Duquesne, Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - The Honorable Lillian Burke describes her love of reading and surprising her class with her knowledge of the New York Stock Exchange

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - The Honorable Lillian Burke reflects upon her experiences at Duquesne Junior High in Duquesne, Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - The Honorable Lillian Burke talks about reading and playing music as a child

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - The Honorable Lillian Burke talks about her music education

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - The Honorable Lillian Burke describes her work on Paul Laurence Dunbar

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - The Honorable Lillian Burke talks her concern about the education system in Duquesne, Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - The Honorable Lillian Burke describes playing basketball at Duquesne High School in Duquesne, Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - The Honorable Lillian Burke remembers playing basketball with students as a substitute teacher in Cleveland, Ohio

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - The Honorable Lillian Burke describes going to The Ohio State University in Columbus, Ohio and her difficulty finding housing

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - The Honorable Lillian Burke describes her various jobs while earning her degree at The Ohio State University in Columbus, Ohio

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - The Honorable Lillian Burke talks about her teaching career in Cleveland, Ohio after graduating from The Ohio State University

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - The Honorable Lillian Burke describes studying for and taking the Ohio Bar Exam, pt.1

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - The Honorable Lillian Burke describes studying for and taking the Ohio Bar Exam, pt. 2

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - The Honorable Lillian Burke talks about meeting her husband, and being reunited with her son after taking the Ohio Bar Exam

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - The Honorable Lillian Burke recalls her husband's death and her relationship with her son

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - The Honorable Lillian Burke talks about working on the Ohio Industrial Commission

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - The Honorable Lillian Burke talks about having to commute to Columbus, Ohio while serving on the Ohio Industrial Commission

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - The Honorable Lillian Burke talks about her early law career

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - The Honorable Lillian Burke describes being appointed the first African American woman municipal court judge in Cleveland, Ohio

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - The Honorable Lillian Burke describes the support she received after being elected municipal court judge in Cleveland, Ohio

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - The Honorable Lillian Burke talks about the dean Cleveland-Marshall College of Law and her classmate HistoryMaker Stanley Tolliver, Sr.

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - The Honorable Lillian Burke talks about serving on the Commission on Accreditation

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - The Honorable Lillian Burke talks about her work with The Cleveland Foundation in Cleveland, Ohio

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - The Honorable Lillian Burke talks about organizations she is involved in

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - The Honorable Lillian Burke talks about her continuing education and working with former mayor of Cleveland, Ohio Michael R. White

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - The Honorable Lillian Burke recalls the working relationships she had with different Cleveland, Ohio political leaders

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - The Honorable Lillian Burke describes other African American women judges in Ohio

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - The Honorable Lillian Burke recalls well-known figures from Pittsburgh and Duquesne, Pennsylvania

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - The Honorable Lillian Burke describes her greatest accomplishments

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - The Honorable Lillian Burke talks about the work she has been involved in since her retirement

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - The Honorable Lillian Burke reflects upon being a beneficiary of the Civil Rights Movement

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - The Honorable Lillian Burke talks about her son and Thurgood Marshall

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - The Honorable Lillian Burke talks about the future of affirmative action and gives advice to those who hope to work in law

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - The Honorable Lillian Burke talks about how proud she is of her family

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - The Honorable Lillian Burke narrates her photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$4

DAStory

2$3

DATitle
The Honorable Lillian Burke describes her love of reading and surprising her class with her knowledge of the New York Stock Exchange
The Honorable Lillian Burke describes being appointed the first African American woman municipal court judge in Cleveland, Ohio
Transcript
Were there other classes in [Duquesne] Junior High School [Duquesne, Pennsylvania] that you really enjoyed?$$I enjoyed literature. I enjoyed literature because I was the type of person, I lived my character. I was always a character when I read. And I read--and I'm going to tell you about something else that happened. Because I read a lot. And we were without a minister at my church [Macedonia Baptist Church, Duquesne, Pennsylvania]. And a man came out from, a minister came out from New York [New York], and he met with the young people. And I might have impressed him, because he went back and he sent me a lot of books. And I was--and the books were very, very, good books. And it was about the New York Stock Exchange [New York, New York], and we didn't know a thing about that. And so what happened was--and I'm getting away from my story now, but I want to tell about this incident of reading. And I came--and so what happened was I was in a class, one of these large classes that they have. If you're pretty good, they let the people get together with current events. And I met in this class, and I think we were in eighth grade, I was in eighth grade at that time. And I had a brother who was older than I who was in this class. Seventh, eighth, and ninth graders met in this class. And of course we were, my brother was a 'W' alphabetically, and he sat behind me. And he worked in my grandfather's [Nelson Daviston] store. So the teacher wanted to know what did we know about the stock exchange, the New York Stock Exchange, and about the, whatever was--talk about the amount of money that they--the number of volumes and all. And so, I had read this book. And I had re-read it because I didn't have a lot of material, so I was re-reading. And so, my hand flew up. And my brother said "Put your hand down. You don't know what you're talking about." So, I put it down. And so the teacher caught him, and he said, "You don't want your sister to recite?" He said, "She doesn't know what she's talking about." So, he says, "How do you know?" He says, "Well, because I know she doesn't know." And so the teacher said to me, "Do you know what you're talking about?" I said, "I think I do." He said, "Get up and recite." I stood up and gave a dissertation on the stock market. (Laughter) Not that I, not that I understood everything that I was giving, but I knew I was giving what I had read. And so, even the teacher was shocked. So then when I sat down, he said, "Hm, now," he said to my brother, "now, how do you like that?" He was shocked. But see, what I found out later was at that time the people in those communities played numbers. And they got the numbers from the New York Stock Exchange that they won on every day. So, I didn't know anything about that, because we were at home; I didn't know anything about the numbers. But I found out later that he did not--he thought this was what I was going to get up and talk about, and I didn't know anything about it. That's all he knew, because he was at this store where the folks did a lot of talking. And he knew about the numbers they were playing, and about how they won it by getting it off the New York Stock Exchange by the newspapers. And I didn't know that, and I didn't know a thing about it. But this was why he did not want me to recite.$$Oh your brother?$$My brother. He was--and I didn't know that, but I did. And I will always feel pretty good that the teacher allowed me to get up and speak my piece, and I did.$You know I (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) See, at that time, I had no idea that I would be sitting on the bench. All I wanted--an opportunity to practice law in a civil courtroom, that's all I wanted. And later on I met the gentleman, and I was sitting on the bench. And it was kind of nice to meet him, I really liked it.$$You mentioned the fact that you became a [Cleveland Municipal Court] judge in an era when there weren't very many women on the bench (simultaneous).$$(Simultaneous) No.$$And certainly no African American women.$$None in Ohio.$$And few African American attorneys who were working--$$Right.$$--in prominent positions. But in 1969, you were appointed to the bench. So, can you just describe that moment in history, what that meant, how that changed history in Ohio for women in law?$$Well, let me say this. By the time--when I was appointed, I was serving on the [Ohio Industrial] Commission. I had a six-year term, and I only, I served a year on an un-expired term, and now I'm on a new six-year term. I had only done two years on the new term. So, now I've got four years that I can serve, and it was a very nice job. And I had learned--everybody, we were getting along beautifully. And it was something to give up something and come back to the bench. And you got to run the same year, plus the fact that I'm appointed in January and I got to run in November, and there's a chance that I might not make it. And so, the people were telling me that I should consider that. I had a son [R. Bruce Burke] who was getting ready to go to college, and he finished high school in January at the time. And he was going to college, either--if he went to a state school, he was going to go in January. But if he was going to an eastern school, he's got to go in September. So, he was going to school in September. And so I decided--the governor [James Allen "Jim" Rhodes] called me and gave me the assurance that I should take the job, that he was backing me. So I took the challenge, and I beat [Daniel O.] Corrigan. And I said that was something unheard of in the State of Ohio. The man that I beat was the president of the school board. And he, his name Corrigan was like magic in Ohio. And I took a hundred women and we got out here and we beat the bushes. They called it the wrecking crew. And when the votes were in, we beat this man.$$So, all of this is happening in 1969?$$Sixty-nine [1969]. My son had gone off the Yale [University, New Haven, Connecticut]. The kids were all on the phone. He had the whole thing, they were all pulling for me.

The Honorable Russell B. Sugarmon

Judge Russell B. Sugarmon, Jr., helped reverse the tide of racism in Tennessee during his legal and political career. A native of Memphis, Sugarmon was born on May 11, 1929, and completed his primary education in his hometown.

Following a year at Morehouse University, Sugarmon earned his B.A. degree from Rutgers University in 1950; he then received his J.D. degree from Harvard Law School in 1953. For the next two years, Sugarmon served in the Army, receiving a letter of commendation for his tour of duty in Japan. Upon returning to the United States, Sugarmon did graduate work in finance at Boston University before entering private practice in Memphis in 1956. Sugarmon ran for public works commissioner in 1959 in a racially charged race. As the first African American to make a serious bid for a major city office in Memphis, Sugermon lost when whites united in opposition to his candidacy; his experience, however, helped pave the way for future black leaders in Memphis.

Sugarmon later became a founding partner in the Memphis law firm of Ratner, Sugarmon, Lucas, Willis and Caldwell. In 1964, Sugarmon was elected to the Tennessee Democratic Party Executive Committee, and two years later ran successfully for the State Senate. From 1976 to 1987, he served as a referee in Memphis Juvenile Court system; Sugarmon stepped down from that post in May 1987 when he was appointed to the General Sessions bench. Sugarmon was elected to the seat in 1988 and was re-elected in 1990 and 1998; by that time, he had become a well-respected elder statesman in Memphis, liked by people of all races and political affiliations.

Sugarmon was an active member of several civic and community groups, including the NAACP and ACLU; he was honored by both organizations for his pioneering efforts and contributions to Memphis. Sugarmon has four children with his first wife, Miriam, and two stepchildren with his present wife, Regina. He also has seven grandchildren and a great-granddaughter.

Accession Number

A2003.148

Sex

Male

Interview Date

7/28/2003

Last Name

Sugarmon

Maker Category
Marital Status

Single

Middle Name

B.

Organizations
Schools

Cooperative School

Booker T. Washington High School

Morehouse College

Rutgers University

Harvard Law School

Boston University

First Name

Russell

Birth City, State, Country

Memphis

HM ID

SUG01

Favorite Season

Fall, Spring

State

Tennessee

Favorite Vacation Destination

None

Favorite Quote

Don't let the bastards get you down.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Tennessee

Birth Date

5/11/1929

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Memphis

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Ribs, Chinese Food

Short Description

Municipal court judge The Honorable Russell B. Sugarmon (1929 - ) served on the Tennessee Democratic Party Executive Committee; the Tennessee State Senate, as a referee in Memphis Juvenile Court system, and on the General Sessions bench.

Employment

United States Army

Delete

Ratner, Sugarmon, Lucas, Willis and Caldwell

Tennessee House of Representatives

General Sessions Civil Division, Division IV

Favorite Color

Blue

DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Russell Sugarmon interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Russell Sugarmon's favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Russell Sugarmon discusses his Chinese, Native American and black family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Russell Sugarmon remembers his parents

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Russell Sugarmon recalls his childhood neighborhood in Memphis, Tennessee

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Russell Sugarmon describes his childhood activities

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Russell Sugarmon recalls his high school football career

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Russell Sugarmon recalls the football rivalry between Manassas and Booker T. Washington High Schools in Memphis

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Russell Sugarmon talks about the Crump political machine's control of black voters in Memphis, Tennessee

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Russell Sugarmon remembers some of his favorite teachers from high school

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Russell Sugarmon recalls his youth in the Depression and 1940s

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Russell Sugarmon reviews his pursuit of higher education

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Russell Sugarmon describes his mischief at Morehouse College

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Russell Sugarmon remembers notable figures from his years at Rutgers University

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Russell Sugarmon shares memories from his college football career

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Russell Sugarmon recalls a piece of environmental analysis he wrote at Rutgers University

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Russell Sugarmon recounts his experience at Harvard Law School

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Russell Sugarmon recalls Harvard Law School professors and classmate Bob Adelman who became a photojournalist

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Russell Sugarmon recounts his military tour in Japan in the mid 1950s

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Russell Sugarmon describes his ex-wife's scholarly pursuits

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Russell Sugarmon discusses beginning his involvement in Memphis, Tennessee politics

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Russell Sugarmon recounts running in a racially-charged Memphis, Tennessee election in 1959

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Russell Sugarmon describes his participation in Memphis, Tennessee politics at the precinct level

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Russell Sugarmon recounts the effects of Tennessee's 1959 gubernatorial election

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Russell Sugarmon discusses national interest in Tennessee's 1959 gubernatorial election

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Russell Sugarmon describes networks of information in Memphis, Tennessee's black community

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Russell Sugarmon recalls how black political activists influenced Tennessee State Senate candidate Frank Clement

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Russell Sugarmon remembers Tennessee legislator A. W. Willis and black voters' increasing power in state politics

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Russell Sugarmon details changes in the local government structure and blacks' political role in Memphis in the 1960s

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Russell Sugarmon discusses "Freedom Summer" in Mississippi and praises Fannie Lou Hamer

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Russell Sugarmon compares Democratic National Conventions in Atlantic City, New Jersey (1964) and Miami, Florida (1972)

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Russell Sugarmon remembers the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Russell Sugarmon talks about contacts with Bobby Kennedy during the Freedom Rides and during JFK's campaign

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Russell Sugarmon remembers John Jay Hooker's 1966 and 1970 runs for governor of Tennessee

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Russell Sugarmon tells about being warned of an alleged assassination plot during the Civil Rights Movement

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Russell Sugarmon recalls an unusual meeting between a Mau Mau and a Ku Klux Klan member

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Russell Sugarmon recalls a Jordanian delegation visiting his court room

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Russell Sugarmon reflects on his career as a judge

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Russell Sugarmon discusses the current financial situation of Tennessee

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Russell Sugarmon discusses discipline and criminality

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Russell Sugarmon reflects on his life's course

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Russell Sugarmon reflects on Elmwood Cemetary, Memphis, Tennessee

The Honorable Jennifer Jones

Judge Jennifer Lynn Jones holds the distinction of being the first African American woman to serve as a judge in the State of Kansas. Born in Wichita Kansas on September 25, 1960 to Nannie Hatch and Leamon Jones, both Oklahoma natives, Jennifer was the fifth of seven children. She attended Wichita's Southeast High School where she graduated in 1978.

After high school, Jones enrolled at Emporia State University and then transferred to the University of Missouri at Columbia where, in 1982, she received her bachelor's degree in Social Work. Determined to continue her education, Jones was accepted to the University of Oklahoma Law School. While there, she was a member of many clubs and societies and served as President of the Black Law Students Association. Jones received her J.D. degree in May, 1985. Following law school, Jones began her career in the office of the District Attorney of Muskogee, Oklahoma. While working for the District Attorney, she developed a specialty in prosecuting sex offenses, child abuse and juvenile cases. In May 1988, she returned to Wichita for a position with the law firm of Bruce and Davis. She became a partner at the firm in 1992. That same year, Jones ran for and was elected Sedgwick County District Court Judge, making her the first African American woman to hold the position of judge in the State of Kansas.

In January of 2001, Judge Jones was appointed to the Municipal Court for the City of Wichita, Kansas. Although the duties of this position demand a lot of her time and energy, she strives to remain active in her community, church and the lives of her two children. Judge Jones also has the honor of being selected by the Kansas Supreme Court to serve as a member of the Commission on Judicial Qualifications. The commission reviews ethical violations of judges throughout the State of Kansas.

Jennifer Jones was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on August 29, 2002.

Accession Number

A2002.172

Sex

Female

Interview Date

8/29/2002

Last Name

Jones

Maker Category
Organizations
Schools

Southeast High School

Emporia State University

Fairmont Elementary School

Munger School

Curtis Middle School

University of Missouri

University of Oklahoma

First Name

Jennifer

Birth City, State, Country

Wichita

HM ID

JON04

Favorite Season

Summer

Sponsor

Knight Foundation

State

Kansas

Favorite Vacation Destination

Caribbean

Favorite Quote

None

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Kansas

Birth Date

9/25/1960

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Wichita

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Chicken

Short Description

Municipal court judge The Honorable Jennifer Jones (1960 - ) is the first African American woman to serve as judge in the state of Kansas, and is a former Assistant District Attorney of Muskogee, Oklahoma, where she developed a specialty in prosecuting sex offense and juvenile cases.

Employment

Office of the District Attorney of Muskogee, Oklahoma

Bruce & Davis

18th Judicial District Court of Kansas in Sedgwick County

Municipal Court of the City of Wichita

Main Sponsor
Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Jennifer Jones' interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Jennifer Jones lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Jennifer Jones talks about her family's history

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Jennifer Jones describes her parents' professions

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Jennifer Jones describes the sights, smells, and sounds of her childhood

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Jennifer Jones shares her memories of childhood

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Jennifer Jones describes her grade school years

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Jennifer Jones describes her experience at Southeast High School in Wichita, Kansas

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Jennifer Jones describes an influential teacher and her decision to attend Emporia State University in Emporia, Kansas

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Jennifer Jones describes her experience at Emporia State University in Emporia, Kansas

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Jennifer Jones talks about her extracurricular activities in college

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Jennifer Jones describes how her experience as a social work intern inspired her to become a lawyer

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Jennifer Jones talks about her experiences in juvenile court

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Jennifer Jones describes her experience at the University of Oklahoma College of Law

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Jennifer Jones talks about an influential professor in law school, David Hall

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Jennifer Jones talks about memorable cases at the District Attorney's Office in Muskogee, Oklahoma

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Jennifer Jones talks about getting a job at the law firm of Bruce and Davis in Wichita, Kansas

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Jennifer Jones talks about her work at the law firm of Bruce and Davis

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Jennifer Jones describes her return to juvenile court

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Jennifer Jones talks about how she became a district court judge in Wichita, Kansas

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Jennifer Jones talks about her tenure as a district court judge

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$3

DAStory

8$3

DATitle
Jennifer Jones talks about getting a job at the law firm of Bruce and Davis in Wichita, Kansas
Jennifer Jones talks about how she became a district court judge in Wichita, Kansas
Transcript
So what did you do after the prosecutor's office in Muskogee [Oklahoma]?$$After leaving there, well I got married, and that kind of precipitated the move, back to Wichita [Kansas], I never really thought I'd come back here, you know, home, most often times people want to get away from home, and stay away, you know, when I was growing up it was like, I'm gonna leave and I'll never come back and live here. But, I got married, my husband, was working for Boeing, and for the first year of our marriage, he was in Greenville, Mississippi, working at a subsidiary of Boeing. And I was in Muskogee and we were six hours apart, and he then, subsequently received a transfer, to the plant here in Wichita, and that's how we ended up coming back here. After coming back, it was then trying to find a job, I went to the D.A.'s office here, in Wichita, and they told me, that I was making too much money in Oklahoma, and they couldn't come anywhere close to that, and thank you, goodbye. There was, I knew no attorneys here, didn't grow up knowing any attorneys. Chester Lewis, was a prominent African American attorney here in Wichita, he was still living at the time, and I went and talked to him, to get some advice as to what do I do, where do I go, where do I get a job in this town? And, he gave me some advice, and encouraged me to go, talk to some of the larger law firms, but I really, I still wanted to be in courtroom. I knew that, and, I thought about a young man that I had gone to law school with, who I knew was marrying a woman, who was from Wichita. And when we left law school, it was understood that he would be coming to Wichita, so I got the phone book out and looked him up, and surely, he was still here. In a small law firm, with his father-in-law, and several other people, called him up, and told him I was here, he remembered my from law school, and said that he would talk to the other people in their firm, because they were looking for someone at the time. And, he arranged a lunch meeting for me, with the partners, and went to lunch, on a Tuesday, about 11:00. And they called me and offered me a job the same day, about 2:30, the same day, so, I took that job and went into private practice as an associate with the firm of Bruce and Davis, when I came back to Wichita.$And I was also experiencing some difficulties, as an attorney in juvenile court here in Wichita [Kansas], because juvenile court is the bottom of the rung, or it was, at that time. And I'm sure not a whole lot had changed here in Wichita since then, but it was on a rotation basis, the judges would come to juvenile court, rotate out there, for a year, and then rotate out and go back downtown to the court house and do other civil or criminal work. So it was a very unpopular court, it was a very difficult court, you know you dealt with those emotional issues of families and child abuse, and neglect, and things of that nature, termination of parental rights. So, it wasn't an easy court to be in, and I really felt like you needed judges who wanted to be in that kind of environment, and I was tired of the flip flop with the judges, because, at that time the focus was work with family until you can put them back together. And it may take three or four years, to undo generations of dysfunction, or substance abuse, or whatever the issue was. So, we would have one judge on a case for a year, and that judge would make all the rulings and the case would move in this direction, and then at the end of that year, that judge would leave, we'd get a new judge, and we would start cases all over again. And families were not going anywhere, and the system was really, bogged down in my opinion. And we had five positions opening up in 1992, for judges, we elect judges here in Wichita, there were five who were forced into retirement, because they had reached the age of 70, while in office, and they could not run again. So, I was like well, why don't I, talking to some other lawyers, sitting in the law library, at juvenile court, why don't I run for judge. And, be assigned here or ask to stay here in juvenile court, and that would kind of stop this flip flop and everybody was like, "well yeah that's a good idea, why don't you do it?" And I was like, well I was really just kidding, but you know, they encouraged me and said well you can do this. So, a few of us got together and tried to figure out how do you run a campaign. I was a very grassroots type of, campaign, we ran very little money. The man that also filed on the Republican ticket, was another Caucasian male, who had stated he was looking for a way to retire. And I, I just kind of felt like we didn't need more of what we already had: a bunch of elderly Caucasian men looking to retire. We needed someone on the bench, particularly in juvenile court who was concerned about children, concerned about families, and trying to fix a system that was broken. So I ran, and I won, so that's how I became a judge the first time here in Wichita.

The Honorable Joseph Roulhac

Joseph Daniel Roulhac was born on August 18, 1916, in Selma, Alabama. His father, Robert, was a Presbyterian minister and his mother, Minerva, was a teacher. Roulhac earned a reputation in Akron, Ohio, as a humane and fair judge who gave his personal attention to every individual who came into his courtroom.

Roulhac’s family moved to Tuscaloosa, Alabama, when he was ten, and to Titusville, Georgia, four years later. He attended religious schools and received his high school diploma from Stillman College in Tuscaloosa in 1934. In 1938, Roulhac graduated with his B.A. degree in sociology from Lincoln University in Pennsylvania. He worked there after graduation as a sociology instructor for a year while earning his M.A. degree from the University of Pennsylvania in 1940. He taught at Fort Valley State College in Georgia until 1941. The U.S. Army drafted him in 1942, and Roulhac attained the rank of master sergeant within months. Everything went well until he refused to justify the Army’s segregation to his black subordinates. Weeks later, Roulhac was shipped to the Philippine Islands. When he returned to the United States in 1946, he used the G.I. Bill to attend the University of Pennsylvania, earning his J.D. degree. In 1948, Roulhac moved to Akron and went into private practice as an attorney. He became an assistant county prosecutor in 1957. In 1967, Roulhac was elected as a municipal judge, serving thirty years before retiring in 1987.

Roulhac was a member of the Phi Beta Sigma fraternity and has served in the NAACP, the Urban League, the Methodist Church and the American Legion. He was honored with the Thomas More Award in 1979. He and his wife, Frances Phoenix, have one child, Delores.

Roulhac passed away on March 5, 2008 at the age of 91.

Roulhac was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on August 2, 2002.

Accession Number

A2002.125

Sex

Male

Interview Date

8/2/2002

Last Name

Roulhac

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Middle Name

D.

Organizations
Schools

University of Pennsylvania

First Name

Joseph

Birth City, State, Country

Selma

HM ID

ROU01

Favorite Season

Spring

Sponsor

Knight Foundation

State

Alabama

Favorite Vacation Destination

Florida

Favorite Quote

Do Your Best.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Ohio

Birth Date

8/18/1916

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Akron

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Chicken

Death Date

3/5/2008

Short Description

Civil rights lawyer and municipal court judge The Honorable Joseph Roulhac (1916 - 2008 ) was a former assistant county prosecutor and served thirty years as a municipal judge in Akron, Ohio.

Employment

City of Akron

Main Sponsor
Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Joseph Roulhac's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Joseph Roulhac lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Joseph Roulhac describes his mother's background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Joseph Roulhac describes his father's background

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Joseph Roulhac describes the sights, sounds, and smells of his childhood

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Joseph Roulhac shares memories of his childhood

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Joseph Roulhac recalls his elementary schools

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Joseph Roulhac describes his favorite teachers

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Joseph Roulhac talks about attending Allen Normal School in Thomasville, Georgia and the Stillman Institute in Tuscaloosa, Alabama

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Joseph Roulhac talks about his employer paying the deposit for his attending Lincoln University in Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Joseph Roulhac describes attending Lincoln University in Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Joseph Roulhac recalls his fellow students at Lincoln University, including Osagyefo Kwame Nkrumah the future President of Ghana

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Joseph Roulhac describes the professors at Lincoln University in the late 1930s

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Joseph Roulhac describes attending the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Joseph Roulhac talks about teaching at Fort Valley State College in Fort Valley, Georgia

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Joseph Roulhac describes race and social class in the 1940s

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Joseph Roulhac talks about his father's ministry

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Joseph Roulhac talks about meeting black intellectual leaders like Alain Locke and Howard Thurman

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Joseph Roulhac describes seeing Howard Thurman speak at Miami University in Ohio

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Joseph Roulhac describes Benjamin Elijah Mays

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Joseph Roulhac talks about James A. 'Billboard' Jackson

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Joseph Roulhac talks about joining the U.S. Army during World War II

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Joseph Roulhac remembers being assigned to write procedural manuals during World War II

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Joseph Roulhac recalls being asked to leave Camp Lee for refusing to adhere to the U.S. Army's segregationist policies

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Joseph Roulhac describes his life path following World War II

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Joseph Roulhac describes meeting his wife

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Joseph Roulhac describes attending law school at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Joseph Roulhac talks about moving to Akron, Ohio to practice law

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Joseph Roulhac describes a case from his early legal career

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Joseph Roulhac talks about winning his famous case, Douglas v. Hubbard

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Joseph Roulhac describes his 1971 case the State v. Norwood

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Joseph Roulhac talks about the role of judges in preventing unjust charges

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Joseph Roulhac describes how he became a judge

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Joseph Roulhac narrates his photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$4

DAStory

1$4

DATitle
Joseph Roulhac talks about his employer paying the deposit for his attending Lincoln University in Pennsylvania
Joseph Roulhac describes a case from his early legal career
Transcript
I want you do just recap that again. Now you were at Stillman [Institute] for high school and you went to junior college there.$$At Stillman, yeah.$$You were trying to save money to go to Lincoln [University, Oxford, Pennsylvania] so let's get that on tape.$$Well at Lincoln [University, Oxford, Pennsylvania] I went to--after I finished high school, I went back to Stillman for two years because I didn't have money to go to Lincoln but I could go to Stillman [Institute, Tuscaloosa, Alabama]. My dad was a Presbyterian minister and he got a special dispensation for the minister's children. So I went back and when the junior college--I attended junior college I had to get money to send to Lincoln [University] because each year they had sent me a letter of admission but they needed some advancement money to see whether they should reserve spaces for me and place it. So the last--so the year after I finished junior college that summer, I went to--went back home and the morning I got on the train, I went to the factory. I took a letter with me and asked the gentleman, I can't remember his name now, to advance me $35.00 to send to Lincoln and I showed them the letter and he wanted to take the letter home. So he took the letter home and a couple of days later he came back and gave me the $35.00 and he said that he was interested in that letter because he thought the letter was wrong, that one of the paragraphs was too long and he took it home and his daughter who had recently graduated from Duke [University] said there was nothing wrong with that letter, that must be a mighty good school. So he came back and gave me $35.00 and he was to take out some money each week and I would remind him that he didn't take it out but then he'd say well I'll get to it but he never got to it and when I got to where I could pay him he was deceased. His wife told me that he never intended to collect on that $35.00. So that was a great fellowship and underwriting in those days and it was a critical difference in my educational progress.$What kind of cases did you handle in the beginning?$$Oh I'd handle anything that would come in the door but I had one case where I have a picture of some boys up on the hill had found a cookie jar which had been buried in the earth over there from 1800s, back in there. They were rolling the dollars on the sidewalk, they were young boys, little boys and when some of the older boys saw them, they wanted to take them and they said, why not get your own, there is a whole bunch of them back there and that caused a lot of commotion. The different people who used to own the property years back--the folks who represented the estate where it was found on Large Street back up in that area and so forth all went to court because with that ruckus found with that money, the police came and took all of the silver dollars and took them to court--took them to the police station and turned them over to the court. So the people from Bath, this is out where we're living here now wanted to know who was representing those black boys who had found the money. So they sent them to me. So that was right down my avenue because at Penn [University of Pennsylvania] I studied under the--Penn taught you the common law and of course in England back in the old days, you know, they would finding treasure troves quite often. That came my way so I wrote some tremendous briefs in terms of who was entitled to it legally and of course I won the case and I have a picture of the Beacon Journal took of my giving the money out to the boys, two black boys who had found it. And of course I took some of them for myself but of course, in those days that was a way of getting some publicity. I took some, gave my friend, gave my wife some and I think I still have two or three of those old silver dollars. They have cankered now with a goodly portion of canker on them but that was one of my first cases.$$How much money was it altogether, do you remember?$$Around $300 and some dollars. So I just took some of the dollars and divided the other dollars which were there among the other children and I don't know but I had enough to kind of pass around some and then we still have some three or four.$$So you gained some notoriety with that.$$Yeah.