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William Pickard

Entrepreneur William Pickard was born on January 28, 1941 in La Grange, Georgia to William Pickard and Victoria Woodward. He attended Flint Mott College, where he earned his A.S. degree in 1962. In 1964, he graduated from Western Michigan University with his B.S. degree in sociology. In 1965, Pickard graduated from the University of Michigan with his M.A. degree in social work. In 1971, he graduated from Ohio State University with his Ph.D. degree.

In 1971, Pickard purchased his first McDonald’s franchise in the Detroit area, and then expanded to own several franchises. In 1982, Pickard was appointed as the first Chairman of the African Development Foundation by President Ronald Reagan. In 1984, Pickard purchased Regal Plastics Company, a company that specialized in producing plastic moldings that were used in automobile parts. In 1987, Bearwood Management Company, Inc. was founded and Pickard became its president. In 1990, he was appointed to the National Advisory Committee on Trade Policy by President George H.W. Bush. The following year, he was appointed to the Federal Home Loan Bank Board of the Indianapolis Bank. In 1998, Pickard founded both Grupo Antolin Primera Automotive Systems and ARD Logistics. The following year, he helped found Vitec LLC. In addition, he became an investor with MGM Grand, Inc. for the construction of a casino in Detroit. In 1999, Pickard founded Global Automotive Alliance, a holding company to several automotive parts manufacturers, and served as its chairman. In 2003, he was part of a group that funded the media company, Real Times Media, LLC and purchased the Chicago Defender and other African American owned newspapers. In 2004, Pickard became the director of Asset Acceptance Capitol Corporation.

In 1980, Pickard was awarded the Distinguished Alumni Award by Western Michigan University. In 2001, he was named “Michiganian of the Year” by Detroit News; and, in 2016, he was appointed by Michigan Governor Rick Snyder to serve as a trustee on the Western Michigan Board of Trustees. In 2017, he published his book, Millionaire Moves: Seven Proven Principles of Entrepreneurship. In the same year, Western Michigan University named a residence hall in his honor, along with Ronald Hall and Dennis Archer.

William Pickard was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on October 20, 2017.

Accession Number

A2017.190

Sex

Male

Interview Date

10/20/2017

Last Name

Pickard

Maker Category
Occupation
Organizations
First Name

William

Birth City, State, Country

LaGrange

HM ID

PIC02

Favorite Season

Fall

State

Georgia

Favorite Quote

There's no prize that cannot be won by hard work, perseverance and prayer.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Michigan

Birth Date

1/28/1941

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Detroit

Favorite Food

Dover Sole

Short Description

Entrepreneur William Pickard (1941- ) one of the nation’s first McDonald’s owners was the founder and Chairman of Global Automotive Alliance. He was also a McDonald’s franchise owner.

Favorite Color

Blue

Willard "Chuck" Lewis

Willard “Chuck” Lewis, President and CEO of One Georgia Bank, was born on April 9, 1961, in Lagrange, Georgia. After graduating from high school in 1979, he earned his B.A. degree in banking and finance at Morehouse College in 1983.

Lewis began his career in banking by working part time at an Atlanta, Georgia, based community bank while still a college student. He has worked at every level of community banking during his twenty-four years in the business.

In June of 2005, Lewis resigned as senior executive vice president & COO from Citizens Trust Bank after twenty-two years of working there and First Southern Bank (which merged with Citizens Trust in 1998) to found One Georgia Bank. On May 5, 2006, One Georgia opened in the 1180 Peachtree Building, one of Atlanta’s most prestigious and distinctive buildings. Under Lewis’ leadership, the bank capitalized with $24.2 million and over 400 shareholders. It marked the first time that a newly chartered bank was formed with over $20 million in capital in Georgia’s history. The bank caters primarily to companies with $3 million to $50 million in revenue and features some of the highest levels of technology found in any bank. One Georgia is now one of the fastest growing community banks in Georgia.

Lewis currently serves on the Board of Trustees of the Georgia Council on Economic Education; Communities in Schools of Georgia; the Georgia Chamber of Commerce; The New Century Forum at the Commerce Club (co-founder & past president); The Commerce Club Operating Board; the Metropolitan YMCA Board of Directors; Midtown Alliance Board of Directors.

His past board involvement consists of the DeKalb Medical Center Foundation (former vice chairman); the Executive Board of Berry College's Campbell Business School; the National Bankers Association (past treasurer); the Sweet Auburn Avenue Business and Improvement Association (past chairman).

In 1997, Lewis was selected by Georgia Trend Magazine as one of the “Forty under Forty” rising stars in the state of Georgia. This honor recognizes the top forty leaders in Georgia under the age of forty. Nominees are judged on professional accomplishments, civic involvement, and giving back to the community.

A graduate of Leadership Atlanta’s Class of 1999, Lewis is a lifetime member of the Morehouse College Alumni Association and is a member of 100 Black Men of DeKalb County. He has served as an editorial columnist for several newspapers, and he has written an entry on the history of African American Banks in Georgia for The New Georgia Encyclopedia.

Accession Number

A2006.021

Sex

Male

Interview Date

2/16/2006 |and| 6/16/2006

Last Name

Lewis

Maker Category
Middle Name

"Chuck"

Organizations
Schools

LaGrange Boys Junior High School

LaGrange High School

Kelly Grammar School

Morehouse College

Speakers Bureau

Yes

Speakers Bureau Availability

Days, Evenings

First Name

Willard

Birth City, State, Country

LaGrange

HM ID

LEW08

Speakers Bureau Preferred Audience

Does not matter

Speakers Bureau Honorarium

Yes - Negotiable

Favorite Season

Spring

Speaker Bureau Notes

Preferred Audience: Does not matter

Emergency Phone Number: (678) 553-7020

State

Georgia

Favorite Vacation Destination

Puerto Rico

Favorite Quote

Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Georgia

Birth Date

4/9/1961

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Atlanta

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Lobster

Short Description

Bank chief executive Willard "Chuck" Lewis (1961 - ) founded One Georgia Bank in Atlanta after serving as senior executive vice president and COO of Citizens Trust Bank.

Employment

One Georgia Bank

Citizens Trust Bank

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Willard "Chuck" Lewis' interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis describes his mother

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his maternal grandmother

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his maternal grandfather and maternal family name

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his father's background

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis remembers debating with his father over the 1968 U.S. presidential election

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis describes his father's influence

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis describes how his parents met

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Continued slating of Willard "Chuck" Lewis' interview

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis lists his favorites

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his siblings James, Judith, and Mattie

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis remembers waiting in the white area of a segregated dentist's office with his elder sister, Joyce Lewis

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his brother Milton

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his sisters, Cheryl and Carol

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his family's achievements

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis considers his elder siblings' perspectives on their younger siblings

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his paternal family history

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis recounts his earliest memories in LaGrange, Georgia

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis remembers typical days and holidays in LaGrange, Georgia

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis describes his childhood neighborhood and friends

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about visiting LaGrange, Georgia as an adult

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about growing up during integration

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about growing up in segregated schools and transitioning into an integrated school system

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis describes his childhood personality

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis describes his religious upbringing

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about attending East Depot Junior High School in LaGrange, Georgia

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis describes his experience at LaGrange High School in LaGrange, Georgia

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his favorite courses in high school

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis reflects on the assassinations of Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Robert Kennedy

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis describes political and social change in the 1960s

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about attending Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his involvement in the bricklaying family business

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his major influences at Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about the influence of Dr. Benjamin Mays and Dr. Hugh Gloster at Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about internships he took while studying at Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia

Tape: 4 Story: 10 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his extracurricular activities at Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about who influenced his career in banking, pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about who influenced his career in banking, pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about HistoryMakers Deborah Wright and Jacoby Dickens

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his community involvement in Atlanta, Georgia

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis describes the challenges he overcame as a young professional in banking

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about participating in Leadership Atlanta

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis describes how his personal philosophy has changed over the years

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his bank, One Georgia Bank

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis describes parallels between chess and life

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Second slating of Willard "Chuck" Lewis' interview

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about how he became interested in Citizens Trust Bank in Atlanta, Georgia

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about working for Citizens Trust Bank under the mentorship of Owen Funderberg

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about Civil Rights Movement leaders who banked at Citizens Trust Bank in Atlanta, Georgia

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about the decline of black-owned banks across the Unites States

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his mentorship under Owen Funderberg

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his career at Citizens Trust Bank in Atlanta, Georgia

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about leaving Citizens Trust Bank to work at First Southern Bank

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about opening bank branches for First Southern Bank

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about the social, political and economic climates of Atlanta, Georgia in the 1980s

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about music in Atlanta, Georgia in the 1980s

Tape: 7 Story: 3 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about economic fallout and recovery in the 1990s

Tape: 7 Story: 4 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis describes "Nigerian fraud schemes" that were popular in the 1990s

Tape: 7 Story: 5 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about the merger of First Southern Bank and Citizens Trust Bank and the failure of Mutual Federal Savings & Loans

Tape: 7 Story: 6 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about acquiring Mutual Federal Savings & Loan after its failure in 2000

Tape: 7 Story: 7 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his successes at Citizens Trust Bank and First Southern Bank in the early 2000s

Tape: 7 Story: 8 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his involvement in Leadership Atlanta and the program's "race day"

Tape: 8 Story: 1 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about how his Leadership Atlanta experience impacted him and led to new friendships

Tape: 8 Story: 2 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about establishing the New Century Club and merging with the Commerce Club in Atlanta, Georgia

Tape: 8 Story: 3 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about the history of the Commerce Club and his group's merger with it in 2001

Tape: 8 Story: 4 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about conducting business across racial divides

Tape: 8 Story: 5 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about the Commerce Club's activities and the vision for One Georgia Bank

Tape: 8 Story: 6 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about creating the board for One Georgia Bank

Tape: 9 Story: 1 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about the creation of One Georgia Bank

Tape: 9 Story: 2 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis describes the culture he wanted to build at One Georgia Bank

Tape: 9 Story: 3 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about leaving Citizens Trust Bank

Tape: 9 Story: 4 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about the risks of starting One Georgia Bank and the development of its business plan

Tape: 9 Story: 5 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about the role of race in the development of his business plan for One Georgia Bank

Tape: 9 Story: 6 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis explains One Georgia Bank's boutique status

Tape: 9 Story: 7 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about raising capital to open One Georgia Bank, pt. 1

Tape: 10 Story: 1 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about raising capital to open One Georgia Bank, pt. 2

Tape: 10 Story: 2 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about One Georgia Bank's opening

Tape: 10 Story: 3 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his hopes for African American support for One Georgia Bank

Tape: 10 Story: 4 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his goals for One Georgia Bank

Tape: 10 Story: 5 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his plans for the future

Tape: 10 Story: 6 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his involvement in Atlanta community organizations

Tape: 10 Story: 7 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis describes his hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 10 Story: 8 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis considers what he might have done differently

Tape: 10 Story: 9 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about his children

Tape: 10 Story: 10 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis considers his legacy

Tape: 10 Story: 11 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis describes how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 11 Story: 1 - Willard "Chuck" Lewis narrates his photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$3

DAStory

4$5

DATitle
Willard "Chuck" Lewis remembers waiting in the white area of a segregated dentist's office with his elder sister, Joyce Lewis
Willard "Chuck" Lewis talks about growing up during integration
Transcript
My next sister, Joyce Lewis, Joyce was also one of the pioneers of integration and Joyce is probably the, she--Mattie [Arnell Shelly] was salutatorian of her high school and Joyce topped that. She was valedictorian (laughter), and Joyce, she was one of the pioneers of integration at Simmons College [Boston, Massachusetts] in Boston [Massachusetts], one of the Ivy League schools [sic] up there. And she actually later in life, I did learn that a lot of the women in the South during that period of time that went to Simmons College looked up to her as a person that, a person of inspiration, as a person that came before them and a very talented person. And I'll tell you, she's the, back in--my first visit to the, she took me to the dentist, my first dentist visit. And we went to a, we went to the dentist's office. And at that time, it was during the time of obviously, the '60s [1960s], and that period it was a time of segregation. And I did come along during the latter vestiges of segregation and went through the whole integration process myself. And, but that was during a period of time when there was a white waiting room and a black waiting room. And then it was called "colored." And we were taken back to the quote, unquote the "colored" waiting room. And, and the entire time I was sitting there with my sister as a little small kid, and she's sitting there, and I didn't realize--she was just as calm as she could be, but I could, I didn't realize that it was eating her up inside to be sitting there in the, in that waiting room. So for the follow-up visit, I guarantee you she doesn't realize that I remember this, but for the follow-up visit, we went to the white waiting room. And we waited, and we sat in the white waiting room. In fact, I think the receptionist pointed toward the "colored" waiting room, but she took me into the white waiting room. And, and I sat there on the floor, and I played with a little white kid, and nothing was ever said. And after that day, I don't think that, I don't think that anyone ever looked back on that period. And I know my subsequent visits there, it was, it was integrated, you know, in every sense of the word. So I don't know if she was the first to do that, but it certainly caught my attention. And I remember it to this day.$Other memories of growing up that you want to share?$$Memories of growing up. Well, I'll tell ya, when the, the later years started to occur and going through the period of integration, I think that was a, that was a period of time that was very unique because, and my community had a sense of pride in terms of what it had accomplished, in terms of the kids that went on to college and the kids that did things--not just my family, but others--and people that achieved; and they were very proud of the teachers, the principals that really kind of dominated the community because they were the professionals. They were the ones with the shirt and tie on, and they were the professionals of the community. And they were the ones that were most revered and respected because of their educational background. And then going through integration and seeing some of these people that you know are some, have some significant talent and have produced significant product in terms of students, kind of relegated to second positions in a lot of instances. For the most part, that was the scenario. The principal of the, of the black high school was now the assistant principal. The teachers that taught the best or the top students were now teaching in the lower levels and the top positions were relegated to or given to white instructors. So I went from being in a circumstance where I was around a lot of African Americans, almost overnight to being in a scenario where I was in the--they had levels one, two and three, and I was always, from the time I went into that system I was always in level one classes, and so my teachers went from black to white almost overnight with a few exceptions. I had a fourth grade teacher and I think, just maybe my fourth grade teacher. But beyond that, all my teachers pretty much were white for the rest of time I was in school. And all of the, and most of the kids that I was around were from the white community. Me and Michael Meredith [ph.], Edna Moore [ph.] and a couple of others were in that circumstance. And I was in it a hundred percent of the time. And so a lot of times I would, I would see kids that, from the community, I would see them in the morning time, but I wouldn't see them again until--and I would barely see them when I got out of school, and it was time to go home. So I wouldn't even see kids that I used to see every day. I went from seeing them to not seeing them almost overnight. And, and I think there's some things that happen when the world is like that for young people. I think they tend to withdraw over time. I didn't, it didn't happen to me initially, but over time, through puberty, I began to withdraw a little bit and became extremely shy and kind of stayed within myself a lot and rarely ventured out. And, and, and a lot of stuff was happening with me during that period.$$But you maintained your academic prowess. You continued on level one, with the level one being the highest courses, is that right?$$Yeah. I don't know how. But (laughter)--

Reverend Dr. Otis Moss, Jr.

Theologian, pastor, and civic leader the Reverend Dr. Otis Moss, Jr. is one of America’s most influential religious leaders and highly sought-after public speakers. A native of Georgia, Moss was born on February 26, 1935, and was raised in the community of LaGrange. The son of Magnolia Moss and Otis Moss, Sr., and the fourth of their five children, he earned his B.A. degree from Morehouse College in 1956 and his masters of divinity degree from the Morehouse School of Religion/Interdenominational Theological Center in 1959. He also completed special studies at the Inter-Denominational Theological Center from 1960 to 1961 and earned his D.Min. degree from the United Theological Seminary in 1990.

From 1954 to 1959, Moss served as pastor of the Mount Olive Baptist Church in LaGrange, Georgia. From 1956 to 1961, he also served as pastor of Atlanta’s Providence Baptist Church and therefore, simultaneously led two congregations from 1956 to 1959. From 1961 to 1975, he pastored the Mount Zion Baptist Church in Lockland, Ohio, and in 1971, he served as co-pastor, with Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Sr., at Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta. In 1975, he was called to pastor Olivet Institutional Baptist Church in Cleveland, Ohio, where he continues today.

Moss has been involved in advocating civil and human rights and social justice issues for most of his adult life. Having been a staff member of Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., he currently serves as a national board member and trustee for the Martin Luther King, Jr. Center for Non-Violent Social Change. His work in the international community has taken him to Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Japan as a member of a clergy mission in 1970, and to Israel in 1978. In 1994, he was the special guest of President Bill Clinton at the peace treaty signing between Israel and Jordan, and, in that same year, he led a special mission to South Africa.

Moss is the recipient of numerous awards and honors, including Human Relations Award from Bethune Cookman College in 1976, The Role Model of the Year Award from the National Institute for Responsible Fatherhood and Family Development in 1992, Leadership Award from the Cleveland chapter of the American Jewish Committee in 1996, and an Honorary Doctor of Divinity from LaGrange College in 2004. In 2004, he participated in the Oxford Round Table in Oxford, England, and was a guest presenter for the Lyman Beecher Lecture series at Yale University.

Moss is married to the former Edwina Hudson Smith. They have three children, Kevin, Daphne (deceased), and Otis, III.

Accession Number

A2005.070

Sex

Male

Interview Date

3/18/2005

Last Name

Moss

Maker Category
Organizations
Schools

Morehouse College

Morehouse School of Religion

Interdenominational Theological Center

United Theological Seminary

First Name

Otis

Birth City, State, Country

LaGrange

HM ID

MOS04

Favorite Season

Spring, Summer

State

Georgia

Favorite Vacation Destination

Western United States, Arizona, Florida, Georgia

Favorite Quote

Keep On Keepin' On.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Ohio

Birth Date

2/26/1935

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Cleveland

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Greens, Cornbread, Vegetables, Fruit

Short Description

Civil rights activist and pastor Reverend Dr. Otis Moss, Jr. (1935 - ) was a staff member of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and has been a pastor in the Cleveland, Ohio area since 1961. In 1994, he was the special guest of President Bill Clinton at the peace treaty signing between Israel and Jordan, and, in that same year, he led a special mission to South Africa.

Employment

Olivet Institutional Baptist Church (Cleveland, OH)

Morehouse College

United Theological Seminary

Ebenezer Baptist Church

Mount Zion Baptist Church

Providence Baptist Church (Atlanta, GA)

Old Mount Olive Baptist Church (LaGrange, GA)

Favorite Color

Maroon, Scarlet, White

Timing Pairs
0,0:1104,21:5704,97:6072,102:9888,137:11826,163:14434,236:14902,243:15448,258:16228,270:17788,290:18568,303:19504,317:23501,354:24068,363:29463,415:30850,425:31330,432:36210,510:37090,522:38610,563:39090,570:39410,575:40450,587:41090,597:41810,608:46164,632:47044,644:50509,701:51380,715:52050,724:52519,733:55100,762:63348,779:67768,802:71178,813:72842,832:77845,877:78769,893:79077,898:79693,907:82670,925:86250,956:88814,979:89334,985:90270,997:96732,1021:99400,1042:102470,1051:103018,1056:103566,1061:107960,1075:108340,1080:114180,1117:118201,1125:121730,1144:123485,1158:127180,1184:128812,1202:134750,1226:135320,1233:140586,1248:141167,1256:143680,1294:144268,1301:150436,1357:153330,1379:155319,1392:155635,1397:156662,1414:159506,1446:163516,1471:164888,1487:165672,1497:166064,1502:166652,1510:176810,1543:180174,1564:182070,1578:191416,1623:191960,1632:197264,1648:199837,1684:200767,1697:201697,1709:207589,1753:209280,1766:210015,1774:215350,1835:215660,1841:219061,1897$0,0:2774,12:3102,17:3430,22:4168,32:4988,44:5480,52:6218,63:6710,71:7284,84:7776,91:9334,112:10400,126:10974,134:14254,149:14920,161:15290,167:16844,177:17806,199:18324,207:18620,212:18916,217:19508,226:26470,280:27170,289:27770,297:32250,312:32770,318:37400,329:38030,338:39164,376:43040,402:43760,414:48775,437:49930,449:52865,464:58135,486:58795,491:65090,502:66247,512:69110,521:69522,526:78745,563:81090,583:82050,597:82930,610:83250,615:86008,625:88670,645:89810,658:90665,671:91140,677:91805,686:92660,697:93230,704:94560,723:95510,736:96270,743:97125,754:100456,765:101310,776:103084,793:103552,800:104332,812:104722,818:105658,833:106282,842:106984,852:107764,863:111108,881:111593,887:113636,898:128450,975:128740,981:129436,997:129668,1002:132278,1012:133580,1021:142266,1038:144842,1056:147906,1071:148918,1084:149470,1092:150022,1099:152966,1144:153518,1152:156558,1175:158690,1225:159002,1232:159470,1244:159678,1249:160406,1266:160666,1272:160978,1279:165872,1322:173559,1354:174666,1364:178000,1381:179170,1393:181372,1403:182263,1417:182992,1434:184940,1457:185606,1467:186640,1475:187891,1486:189146,1494:193482,1513:194931,1523:195897,1530:198300,1543:199020,1552:200023,1561
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of the Otis Moss interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Otis Moss lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Otis Moss relates his mother's background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Otis Moss discusses his father's background

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Otis Moss talks briefly about his maternal and paternal grandparents

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Otis Moss describes the custom of receiving religion via a network of churches and preachers in the rural South

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Otis Moss talks about the meaning of the baptism ritual

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Otis Moss remembers his baptism as a child

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Otis Moss discusses baptism as a rite of passage into adulthood

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Otis Moss names his siblings and details the family structure after his mother's death

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Otis Moss talks recalls the smells that remind him of his childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Otis Moss discusses his early education and the teacher who influenced him

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Otis Moss talks about learning race pride in the Jim Crow South during his youth

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Otis Moss refutes the notion that black education was inferior to white education during segregation in the South

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Otis Moss recalls his experiences at Morehouse College

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Otis Moss discusses the political climate during his years at Morehouse College

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Otis Moss talks about going forward with the Civil Rights Movement despite fear and intimidation

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Otis Moss explains the importance of voting rights to the Civil Rights Movement

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Otis Moss talks about the impact of the Voting Rights Act of 1965

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Otis Moss discusses the level of family support he and others received as political activists

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Otis Moss talks about his personal affiliation with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Otis Moss comments on the Civil Rights Movement after the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Otis Moss discusses the legacy of the Civil Rights Movement

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Otis Moss briefly details his pastoral assignments through the early 1970s

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Otis Moss briefly details his professional activities with his church, the King Center and Operation Push

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Otis Moss clarifies numerous civil rights organizations' acronyms

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Otis Moss recounts his decision to pastor at Olivet Institutional Baptist Church in Cleveland

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Otis Moss explains the practice of using the appropriate words when naming Baptist churches

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Otis Moss discusses the ways in which Olivet Institutional Baptist Church serves its community

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Otis Moss comments on the Black Church and its involvement in the 2004 Presidential election

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Otis Moss talks about the Black Church and its involvement with faith-based initiatives

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Otis Moss discusses the importance of his family

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Otis Moss talks about his son who is also a successful minister

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Otis Moss discusses his goals for the future

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Otis Moss expresses his hopes for the future for Olivet Institutional Baptist Church

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Otis Moss explains the symbolism of the Sankofa bird

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Otis Moss talks about the forces that impact our daily lives

DASession

1$1

DATape

4$5

DAStory

3$3

DATitle
Otis Moss talks about his personal affiliation with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Otis Moss recounts his decision to pastor at Olivet Institutional Baptist Church in Cleveland
Transcript
Reverend Moss by the time we get to that thirtieth birthday [1965] for you--.$$Yes.$$--there's a long list of martyrs for the cause. We have Medgar Evers [1963], Malcolm X [1965], the four little girls [1963]--.$$(Simultaneously) Four little girls.$$--from Birmingham, Alabama.$$The three young men in Philadelphia, Mississippi [1964].$$Martyrs for the cause of freedom, but still you were out there. When do you decide to settle down or have you settled down? And I ask the question because I know of your association with Dr. [Martin Luther] King [Jr.]. Do people talk about this, about the reality of death and martyrdom and perhaps the possibility of settling down one day? Do you have those conversations with Dr. King and others in the movement?$$You know, we saw the dangers as a necessary feature of liberation and the fulfillment of our calling, not everyone but those of us who were directly involved. By the time I reached '65 [1965], the year of '65 [1965], my first wife is now deceased. And I am now participating in the Movement with that reality and a baby daughter [Daphne Moss], but I do not stop my involvement. I do curtail a few activities because of the responsibility of fatherhood. But by the time I reach 1966, my present wife [Edwina Hudson Smith Moss] and I become engaged and we are married by Dr. King. She was on the staff of Dr. King's. Consequently some would say it was almost a, a marriage within the Movement, so there is no breaking of the rhythm of this kind of activism. And our children then grow up as a part of that historic experience and see Dr. King as a part of the extended family. And he truly was, and Mrs. [Coretta Scott] King and the entire King family.$$So you said in '66 [1966] Dr. King performs the wedding ceremony--,$$Yes.$$--for you and Mrs. Moss.$$Right.$$And two years later in 1968 he'll be assassinated.$$[Nods head "Yes"].$In 1975 you make this wonderful decision to come to Cleveland, Ohio to serve as the Senior Pastor of the Olivet Institutional Baptist Church.$$Yes.$$What was it about Cleveland that, that led you to believe that your ministry here would bear a lot of fruit in the city?$$I had no plans to come to Cleveland, was very, very happy with the church [Mount Zion Baptist Church] in Cincinnati [Ohio]. And I received an invitation to give the anniversary message in the fall of 1974. And in that experience something happened that said, "You must say yes or no to the possibility and the invitation of becoming the next pastor of this great church," whose former pastor I had known well and respected, highly respected. He was regarded and gifted around the nation and across the world and we had served together as board members of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference and as board members of Operation Push. And it's interesting how, how that developed. And you, you could even say at the last minute my name was entered into the process and I was overwhelmingly extended the call to become pastor of the church. And as they say, "The rest is history."$$And for the record would you please just tell us who the, the former pastor was, your colleague in the civil rights movement?$$Yes, indeed, [Rev.] Dr. Odie M. Hoover [Jr.] who was the really legendary pastor of Olivet prior to my coming, a leader in the Cleveland in the community, a leader in religious circles across the nation, gifted evangelist, unusually gifted vocalist and powerful preacher.

Augustine Davis

Augustine Davis, survivor of the attack on Pearl Harbor and pioneering black pharmacist, was born on November 19, 1917, in LaGrange, Texas. His early years were spent helping his family with farm work. Aware of the lack of medical attention available to his family, Davis desired to become a doctor. When he graduated in 1936 from Taylor High School in Taylor, Texas, Davis needed money to attend college, but he was unable to find a working scholarship available for any of the black colleges.

To finance his college education, Davis enlisted in the U.S. Army’s segregated black 25th Infantry, which recruiters told him was the only armed black unit in the Army. After a three-year stint, he still needed tuition money, so he enlisted in the still-segregated U.S. Navy. The pay from the U.S. Navy was a little higher, though all black recruits were assigned special duty in the messman branch. However, Davis’ naval duty, which superseded special duty, was that of a gunner.

At daybreak, on December 7, 1941, the Japanese military launched a surprise attack on the U.S. Naval Base at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. Davis rushed to his gun as the enemy opened fire on the U.S.S. Breese. One plane flew so low that Davis could see the pilot’s face. His loaders never reached him, but somehow Davis loaded his gun and fired back, only to see planes disappear into clouds of smoke. His gun was the only one on the Breese to get into action, but Davis received no citations for valor. He went on to see combat duty in other pivotal engagements, including the Battle of Midway. Davis was placed in charge of a battery aboard the U.S.S. Essex, which consisted of four anti-aircraft machine guns, all manned by black men.

After the war, Davis attended Ohio State University and earned his B.S. degree in pre-medicine, then graduated from the Ohio State College of Pharmacy – one of few blacks to have done so. Davis retired after a long professional career. He has two daughters, six grandchildren and two siblings. He lived with his wife, Gwendolyn, in Montclair, New Jersey.

Davis passed away on July 5, 2014.

Accession Number

A2002.100

Sex

Male

Interview Date

7/9/2002

Last Name

Davis

Maker Category
Occupation
Organizations
Schools

La Grange School

Taylor High School

Bates College

The Ohio State University

The Ohio State University School of Pharmacy

Search Occupation Category
First Name

Augustine

Birth City, State, Country

LaGrange

HM ID

DAV04

Favorite Season

None

Sponsor

Walgreens

State

Texas

Favorite Vacation Destination

None

Favorite Quote

For heaven’s sakes!

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

New York

Birth Date

11/19/1917

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

New York

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Beans

Death Date

7/5/2014

Short Description

Pharmacist and sailor Augustine Davis (1917 - 2014 ) was a World War II Navy gunner and Pearl Harbor survivor. After the war, Davis attended Ohio State University and earned his B.S. degree in pre-medicine, then graduated from the Ohio State College of Pharmacy, one of the few blacks to have done so at the time.

Employment

Mt. Carmel Hospital, (Columbus, OH)

University Hospital

St. Joseph's Hospital

Main Sponsor
Main Sponsor URL
Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Augustine Davis interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Augustine Davis's favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Augustine Davis describes his family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Augustine Davis describes his mother's background

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Augustine Davis recalls the racial climate of the La Grange, Texas of his youth

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Augustine Davis describes his family structure growing up

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Augustine Davis reflects on his youth in La Grange, Texas

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Augustine Davis discusses the history of Native American/black relations in the U.S.

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Augustine Davis reflects on his school life

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Augustine Davis recalls leaving home at age sixteen

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Augustine Davis recalls his false imprisonment in Katy, Texas

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Augustine Davis describes his beginnings in the U.S. military

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Augustine Davis reviews his educational pursuits while in the U.S. military

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Augustine Davis recounts the bombing of Pearl Harbor, December 7, 1941

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Augustine Davis gives examples of discrimination in the segregated U.S. Navy during the 1940s

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Augustine Davis evaluates portrayals of World War II generals and admirals

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Augustine Davis talks about mispersceptions about blacks' roles in the Navy during World War II

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Augustine Davis recalls the destruction of the U.S. fleet at the attack on Pearl Harbor, December 7, 1941

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Augustine Davis shares memories of the aftermath of the attack on Pearl Harbor, December 7, 1941

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Augustine Davis explains the U.S. Navy's strategy after defeat at Pearl Harbor

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Augustine Davis reflects on his and other African Americans' military service in World War II

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Augustine Davis describes how a gun battery works

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Augustine Davis describes his experience in World War II's Battle of Midway, 1942

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Augustine Davis mentions Tokyo Rose

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Augustine Davis relates an unreported incident of an American cruiser sunk by friendly fire during World War II

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Augustine Davis illustrates how he and other black soldiers were not appreciated at home during World War II

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Augustine Davis illustrates racism aboard the U.S.S. Essex aircraft carrier

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Augustine Davis advocates for the acknowledgement of African American military service in World War II

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Augustine Davis describes his experince at Bates College after his discharge from the U.S. Navy

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Augustine Davis recalls averting a frontal lobotomy while at a Veteran's hospital

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Augustine Davis describes his efforts to start life anew after leaving college and the military

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Augustine Davis talks about his return to college and obtaining his undergraduate degree from Ohio State

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Augustine Davis talks about the difficulty of getting into medical school after graduating from college

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Augustine Davis explains why he attended pharmacy school

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Augustine Davis recalls how he dealt with racism he encountered at Ohio State

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Augustine Davis describes the challenges he faced due to racial prejudice while working as a pharmacist

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Augustine Davis discusses the prevalence of racism in the United States

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - Augustine Davis recognizes shortcomings in the mentoring of black youth

Tape: 7 Story: 3 - Augustine Davis discusses his parents' responses to his success

Tape: 7 Story: 4 - Augustine Davis describes how he would like to be remembered

DASession

1$1

DATape

4$6

DAStory

1$8

DATitle
Augustine Davis recalls the destruction of the U.S. fleet at the attack on Pearl Harbor, December 7, 1941
Augustine Davis describes the challenges he faced due to racial prejudice while working as a pharmacist
Transcript
Let's go back to [the attack on] Pearl Harbor [Hawaii, December 7, 1941] and let's talk about what the scene looked like there. And maybe why the [U.S.S.] Breese didn't get sunk. And there's a story about the [U.S.S.] Arizona too.$$You ready for me to talk? Tell you about it?$$Yeah, yeah.$$Then Pearl Harbor, now, see, they have what they call battleship row, and they--now, we weren't tied up to any of those docks. Destroyers was moored to buoys, we were tied up to buoys. Now, we were right around, as you came out of the channel, we weren't too far, after getting out to the channel into the main harbor, tied up to a buoy. Now, when there was all that attack, that was going on there--see, most of those ships were sunk within a minute of--a half an hour because when they knew anything, those guys was dropping bombs and things down on--practically down the smokestacks and things before any of the other guys were even out of the bunks. Ships was sinking and burning. And the guys were abandoning ship, jumping in the water. And those fighters were still coming in strafing and killing the guys in the water. So, and this, another thing, they always say, now, telling it, giving a description of something that happened in a case like that or during war or anything else in the--individuals tell the story from where they--their viewpoint, where they were and what was happening. Now, they, they talk about they only lost 2,500 men in Pearl Harbor. That's hard for me to believe because you take each one of those battleships carried almost 400--4,000 men, not to mention the destroyers or anything like that that carried three--around 300 men and stuff. Now, and most of those guys were lost on those ships. Now, you take like the [U.S.S.] Arizona. The Arizona just went down, and the guys didn't have a chance. But when they sound, man your battle station, even though their ship was blowing up and sinking at the time, here again, that was a battleship. And like I said, most of your black guys on there was assigned to the magazine. Those guys went to their battle station knowing that that ship was going down. They went to their battle stations. Consequently, they're all down there on that, the Arizona in Pearl Harbor right now. Now, about a couple of months before that happened, before the war brought--see, in the [U.S.] Navy they like all the other service, the Army as well, they, they go after good athletes. Ships compete for good athletes just like there in the Army bases and things, like companies go after good athletes. So the guys, the admiral has rank and the captain of the Arizona was an admiral, where the captain of the destroyer I was on was only a commander. Now, the captain of the Arizona was trying to get me off of the destroyer on the Arizona because I was a good athlete.$$What, to play baseball?$$For, to play baseball--now see, I played everything. I played but football, and so, yeah, that's what, yeah, that's what it--because ships compete against each other like schools and things, your bases and things, ship bases, they, they have base teams and things like that. They, they compete against each other just like colleges and things do. So he was trying to get me off, gonna take me off the destroyer, that destroyer and move me to the Arizona. Well, the captain of the destroyer I was on, he made an appeal to the admiral of the fleet saying that the captain of the Arizona was pulling rank on him and attempting to take his best men away from him which was lowering the efficiency of his ship. And the admiral of the fleet stopped that transfer. Now, had that not happened, I would be down there with the rest of those guys on that Arizona right today. So here again, I say, well, maybe there is a God. I mean so many things have happened to me that I can't explain. But anyway, that's--$$Well, what did--yeah, can you--I just wondered if you could describe what it looked like and what it smelled like, and--?$$Oh, during that attack?$$Yeah, after the battle, yeah.$$Well, you couldn't, you couldn't smell anything but oil and oil all over the water, from the ships and things, and naturally, smoke, you, you--black smoke and stuff. You're inhaling that, it's stifling to you--and during, during the battle, you, you could hardly see so far because the, it was so much dense black smoke from those ships burning and sinking. So it was, it was just, it was, it was complete pandemonium. As I say, you smelled a lot of fuel oil and stuff like, all those planes right there on Ford Island [Pearl Harbor, Hawaii]. Those planes was all blowing up so there's aircraft fuel and fumes in the air, and all from the ships, the, the whole harbor was covered with oil. And they guys, if you--that was in the water, all you could do was--and it was fire on the water. So you were taught in the navy anyway, abandon, abandoning ship in case of fire or it might be fire on the water from the--so you swim as far as you could in the water and when you come up, you come up with your hands first and part the water, part that oil and stuff. So you could catch your breath and then go back down. See, you could do that when that, when that oil and stuff is burning on the water, you come up, you part the water, you part that blaze, give you a chance to stick your head up there and, and catch a breath and then go back down. Well, that's--.$$So what do you try to do? Swim under it--?$$Swim under it, you have to stay under it. And that's only, you can only go so far like that, and you, you have to come up. So it's just, you're just lost. I mean you just come up and get burned up. And then another thing, when a ship is sinking like that, you have to get as far away from it as you can because it, it'll pull you right down with it. It's taking on water, you see, and it's sucking that water in; it'll suck you right in with it. And that vacuum of the ship going down, even if it, you--it's no longer seen on the surface of the water, it's still a vacuum, there's water coming in to fill that void where that ship went down. So, so that water and current will, will pull you right down with it. And it may take you so deep so you won't be able to hold your breath long enough to get back to the surface. But that's, that's what these guys were doing in the water. And then--another thing, as I say, most of them didn't have a chance because even though they managed to get off the ship and into the water and trying to swim to the shore, these, these--the fighter planes were coming and just spraying the surface of the water with bullets killing 'em in the water.$When I graduated from pharmacy [Ohio State University College Of Pharmacy, Columbus, Ohio] it was a routine--they usually brought in representatives from all your major pharmaceutical companies, things like that, to come in and interview the senior class. It was two of us graduating in my class. One more black guy. They brought these guys in to interview all these other guys. And none of them ever interviewed myself or this other--Rudy, this other black guy. Never interviewed us. At that time you couldn't--black guys couldn't get in the pharmaceutical industry. You couldn't even get a job in retail pharmacy. You apply--I applied for jobs in retail pharmacy and they said they need you there, but they were afraid to hire you because it may drive a lot of their white customers away. So hospital pharmacy would take a black pharmacist in for the simple reason that none of these other guys--because they made more money in industry and that type of thing than they could make in hospital pharmacy. So hospitals needed pharmacists. So they would take us. So that's how I got into hospital pharmacy. And in order to augment my salary, bring my salary up to something comparable to what these other white guys were making in the industry and that, not only did I do hospital pharmacy, I worked part-time retail pharmacy in areas--all black areas. They wouldn't hire you in retail pharmacy. These chains and things in none of the retail pharmacy that you know. Private drugstores. They wouldn't hire you in a white area. But those people--drugstores in all black areas, they would hire you. Now that's what was going on then, all right. Now another thing that I get into, you get into that. Even there in hospital pharmacy you could never become the head of the department a chief pharmacist even in hospital pharmacy, that paid more than just a regular staff pharmacist. That was going on even in hospital pharmacy. I went--I went into hospital pharmacy in Columbus, Ohio and I stayed in pharmacy in Columbus, Ohio 'til I met my wife [Gwendolyn Newberry] and got involved with my wife and she lived in Cleveland [Ohio]. So that's when I moved to Cleveland and went into hospital pharmacy in Cleveland. And the first thing I was told when I reported to work at University Hospital in Cleveland--the head of the department called me inside and said, "Now just because we will be working with you, that doesn't mean that we want to socialize with you." See that's the thing that burns me. A lot of these blacks today they're out here walking around with their nose in the air and not--and they don't know what we went through. And to a great extent still going through, up until I retired. I was working in--I transferred to a hospital [St. Joseph's Hospital] in New Jersey, because it paid a little bit more money than the hospital was paying--the University Hospital was paying in Cleveland. I got there--it was a situation where most of the people they had working in pharmacy there didn't know anything about hospital pharmacy. So that's why they latched on to me in the first place, all right. The head of the department, that one that should have been running the department--and when they had department head meetings and all this kind--that should have been attending those meetings, I was sent to those department head meetings. And I was told at one of the meeting--it kept happening. I was told at one of the meetings something. The president was talking about some kind of program. Whatever they were talking about and they wanted the opinion of all--coming from all departments. And I said how it would affect the pharmacy department, the problems and things we would have and that type thing. And the president one day--one day I just had had it. This particular day the president said, "Oh that's not for you to say. That's for the head of your department to say." And I had had it. I said, "Well why do you think I'm up here? Do you think I came here on my own? The head of the department sent me here. Why do you think I was sent here?" And you could hear a pin fall. He didn't know what to say. And I--in the department I set up an IV [intravenous] department. I did all the research work and that type of thing. I set up an IV department. So I was put in charge of that IV department because the other pharmacist, they didn't know anything about that. So they got another white youngster coming in there right out of college. And he was assigned to my department, the IV department. He didn't wanna work back there because I was in charge of that department. So the head of the pharmacy department started hee-hawing around and came to me and said, "Well--" talking about the situation. He said, "Well why don't we just make both of you head of that department." Now this might seem ridiculous to you.$$Yeah it does.$$"Why don't we just make both of you head of that department." I told him--I said, "This is ridiculous." I said, "Well I'll just do what you don't have the guts to tell me. I'll just tell you what I'll do myself. You can give that department to that fellow. I'll take orthopedics, intensive care and cardiac care. And I'll take those three departments--floors. Cardiac care, intensive care and orthopedics." And then they said, "Well that will be fine. But then also what will happen before he makes any decisions as to what's to be done back there in that IV department, he'll have to get it approved by you." I was telling you about some of the things I went through. Some of the things I went through.$$That sounds crazy. Sounds absolutely crazy.$$And that's--and that hadn't been eons--years ago. That's right on up until--you have doctors and things coming to the pharmacy with questions and things about medication and what not. They'd walk right by me and go to one of these white individuals. And that white individual had to turn and come to me to get the answer. And that soon became--and all the doctors--it wasn't no black doctors in that hospital out there. They [unclear]. They were aware of that. Yet they would come if they'd come there, they'd still go to one of those guys and they had to get what I had to say through one of those guys. Also the thing that, you know--so tell you the truth I'm a--I am a better man today and it makes it worse when I have to endure and think of what other people thinks about me and that type of thing. Now I--getting back to the beginning when I transferred from Ohio to New Jersey, New Jersey was supposed to reciprocate with Ohio. Supposedly all I had to do was go there and apply for a license in New Jersey. I had to get a New Jersey license. But that's all it should have been. Because I'd been working as a pharmacist in Ohio for what? Five or six years. But when I got to New Jersey instead of reciprocating with me, they did it for other pharmacists. I've known other white pharmacists to come from Chicago [Illinois] here and Boston [Massachusetts] there. Came there and all they did was apply for a New Jersey license and got it. But with me--you know how they requested for me to get licensed in New Jersey? I had to get authentic documentation from the elementary school that I graduated from, the high school that I graduated from, the college that I graduated from. I had to get a letter from two of the professors in the college that I graduated from. And a recommendation from the hospital that I had just left. They requested all that stuff from me. Now how in the world did I get through high school? How did I get through college? How would I get an Ohio license if I hadn't graduated from college?