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James Hiram Malone

Versatile, prolific, retired graphic artist, cartoonist, writer and painter, James Hiram Malone is the founder and director of Laughing Trees, Inc., a non-profit, volunteer oriented organization operated out of his office, studio, and gallery/home in Atlanta, Georgia. Born on March 24, 1930 at the onset of the depression in Winterville, Georgia to Ralph and Sarah Lena Echols Malone, his father (Malone Sr.) in 1932, moved the family to Atlanta’s Buttermilk Bottom with hopes of attaining a better life for Malone and his older brother, Ralph, Jr. With encouragement from his mother and an elementary school teacher, Malone began to express himself visually at an early age. The earliest exhibition occurred during his junior year in high school. During his senior year, his paintings won him international recognition and a scholarship to attend Morehouse College where he majored in art.

Malone tried to attend “White” Atlanta’s High School of Art but was denied admission. Instead, he joined the U.S. Army, and his military career spanned over a nine-year period. Malone became the first person of color to hold the Fort Jackson post of Art Coordinator NCO and an instructor of the 3431 Army Services Unit Craft Shop. Later, he became the U.S. Army Chief Illustrator in the Special Services Division.

Malone left the military and demanded entrance again into Atlanta’s High School art program. Barred the second time, Atlanta’s High School offered him a voucher to attend an art school up north. At Detroit’s Center for Creative Studies Art and Design College, he earned his Associate of Arts degree. He worked for a variety of companies— always the first and only black in the art department. His employment ranged from a one room small agency’s one-man team to an over four acre K-Mart International Headquarters with a team of hundreds. Before leaving Michigan, for Atlanta, he spearheaded fundraising for the landmark African American History Museum; recorded the 1967 riots in paintings, cartoons and writings; created Michigan Chronicle Newspaper’s cartoon, “Brother,” and “I’m Dreaming of Colored Christmas” greeting cards.

Malone was hired by the Atlanta Journal Constitution as an advertising graphic artist, then promoted to senior graphic designer. He created the cartoon panel “Malone’s Atlanta”, and a literacy guide, (Say) “Simply Apply Yourself”. He organized employees’ Martin Luther King, Jr.’s parade celebration, and gave community students motivational lectures.

Among the books Malone has authored are Brother, No Job Dad and Grandma Sarah’s Closet. His publications include the Ralph Syndicated Comic Strip and the Living Longer Comic Strip. He has written lyrics for the songs, “Homeless Hope” and “Willie Lives in the Street” to bring attention to the plight of the homeless and “Talk to Your Child” to encourage parents’ participation in the lives of their children. His poetry is in the book Word Up. Two of his paintings Faith Moves Mountains and Down Yonder serve as a background for the movie Snow Dogs. His cartoons are published in numerous publications.

Malone is an avid community activist, lobbyist, volunteer for Hosea’s Feed the Hungry and Homeless Program and a columnist for the crusading newspaper, Street Beat. He is CEO of Grove Park Arts Alliance and Neighborhood Association; Board Member of Keep Atlanta Beautiful; past President of the International Black Writers Association; Local 22, Member of the Southern Poverty Law Center of Alabama and the RepoHistory Association; the Buttermilk Bottom Project; past chairman, The Atlanta Project Clusters, promoting local neighborhood’s self reliance.

Malone, The Eldest African American Living Native Son of Contemporary Visual Arts in Atlanta, in 2005, organized and curated, “Homecoming: 20th Century African American Masters Art Exhibition” at the City Gallery East, Atlanta, Georgia, featuring twenty-two artists, was sponsored by the Bureau of Cultural Affairs and Laughing Trees, Inc. An ongoing exhibition of Malone’s artwork is at Teaching Museum South, Hapeville, Georgia.

Malone was divorced and was the father of two sons, Andrew Ralph and Matthew Martin, who reside in Michigan. He passed away on April 9, 2011 in Atlanta.

Accession Number

A2005.256

Sex

Male

Interview Date

12/7/2005 |and| 12/19/2005

Last Name

Malone

Maker Category
Middle Name

Hiram

Organizations
Schools

David T. Howard Elementary School

Edmund Asa Ware Elementary School

Booker T. Washington High School

Morehouse College

College of Creative Studies

Search Occupation Category
First Name

James

Birth City, State, Country

Winterville

HM ID

MAL03

Favorite Season

All Seasons

State

Georgia

Favorite Vacation Destination

Atlanta, Georgia

Favorite Quote

None

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Georgia

Birth Date

3/24/1930

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Atlanta

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Barbecue (Chicken)

Death Date

4/9/2011

Short Description

Cartoonist and graphic designer James Hiram Malone (1930 - 2011 ) was a retired graphic artist, cartoonist, writer and painter, and founder and director of Laughing Trees, Inc., a non-profit, volunteer oriented organization. Malone was an avid community activist, lobbyist, volunteer for Hosea's Feed the Hungry and Homeless Program and a columnist for the crusading newspaper, Street Beat.

Employment

U.S. Army

Better Brochures and Catalogues

Federal Department Store

Laughing Trees, Inc.

Atlanta Journal Constitution and Cox Enterprises, Inc.

Montgomery Ward

Favorite Color

Green

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of James Hiram Malone's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - James Hiram Malone lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - James Hiram Malone describes his mother's personality and family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - James Hiram Malone describes his father's personality and family background

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - James Hiram Malone describes his grandparents' family backgrounds

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - James Hiram Malone describes his earliest childhood memory

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - James Hiram Malone describes the Atlanta neighborhood of Buttermilk Bottom

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - James Hiram Malone describes Sanctified churches

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - James Hiram Malone remembers Buttermilk Bottom's juke joints and sense of community

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - James Hiram Malone describes the sights, sounds and smells of his childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - James Hiram Malone recalls how the Ku Klux Klan assailed Buttermilk Bottom

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - James Hiram Malone recalls the vendors that would visit his neighborhood

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - James Hiram Malone describes the Buttermilk Bottom community and its fate

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - James Hiram Malone remembers Atlanta's David T. Howard Elementary School

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - James Hiram Malone remembers lunch at David T. Howard Elementary School

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - James Hiram Malone recalls the elementary schools he attended in Atlanta

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - James Hiram Malone recalls a fight in his later elementary school years

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - James Hiram Malone recalls moving out of Buttermilk Bottom

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - James Hiram Malone remembers going to the movies as a child in Atlanta

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - James Hiram Malone recalls seeing movies at Atlanta's segregated theaters

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - James Hiram Malone describes University Homes in Atlanta, Georgia

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - James Hiram Malone describes his early art exhibitions

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - James Hiram Malone describes his extracurricular activities at Booker T. Washington High School

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - James Hiram Malone recalls his teenage experiences of racial discrimination

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - James Hiram Malone describes his decision to attend Morehouse College

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - James Hiram Malone describes Morehouse College in the late 1940s and 1950s

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - James Hiram Malone describes changes at Spelman College and Morehouse College

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - James Hiram Malone recalls enlisting in the U.S. Army

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - James Hiram Malone explains his decision to leave Morehouse College

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - James Hiram Malone describes his placement in the U.S. Army

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - James Hiram Malone recalls the desegregation of the U.S. Army

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - James Hiram Malone describes the gallery he established at Fort Jackson

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - James Hiram Malone explains the purpose of the art gallery at Fort Jackson

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - James Hiram Malone recalls defying segregation in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - James Hiram Malone describes his experience of racial discrimination at Fort Jackson

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - James Hiram Malone reflects upon what he learned in the U.S. Army

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - James Hiram Malone describes his role as chief illustrator in the U.S. Army

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - James Hiram Malone recalls helping to solve a burglary case in Fayetteville, North Carolina

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - James Hiram Malone recalls the military bases where he was stationed

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - James Hiram Malone recalls his success as an illustrator while serving in the U.S. Army

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - James Hiram Malone talks about his first collection of poetry

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - James Hiram Malone remembers the deaths of his brother and mother

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - James Hiram Malone recalls deciding to attend the Detroit Society of Arts and Crafts

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - James Hiram Malone describes his role at Better Brochures and Catalogues, Inc.

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - James Hiram Malone describes his work at Detroit's Federal Department Stores

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - James Hiram Malone remembers the 1967 Detroit riots

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - James Hiram Malone describes his involvement in Detroit's art organizations

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - James Hiram Malone recalls his graphic design career in Detroit, Michigan

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - James Hiram Malone describes his work in Atlanta and his book, 'No-Job Dad'

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - James Hiram Malone describes his poetry and books

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - James Hiram Malone describes his activism in Atlanta, Georgia, pt. 1

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - James Hiram Malone describes his activism in Atlanta, Georgia, pt. 2

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - James Hiram Malone describes his work with The Atlanta Project

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - James Hiram Malone talks about his father's remarriage and death

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - James Hiram Malone describes his art and activism after retirement

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - James Hiram Malone describes Laughing Tree, Inc.

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - James Hiram Malone reflects upon his life

Tape: 7 Story: 3 - James Hiram Malone shares advice for young artists

Tape: 7 Story: 4 - James Hiram Malone describes his hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 7 Story: 5 - James Hiram Malone describes how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 7 Story: 6 - James Hiram Malone reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 8 Story: 1 - James Hiram Malone narrates his photographs, pt. 1

Tape: 8 Story: 2 - James Hiram Malone narrates his photographs, pt. 2

Tape: 8 Story: 3 - James Hiram Malone narrates his photographs, pt. 3

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$7

DAStory

9$1

DATitle
James Hiram Malone recalls enlisting in the U.S. Army
James Hiram Malone describes Laughing Tree, Inc.
Transcript
After Morehouse [Morehouse College, Atlanta, Georgia], you joined the [U.S.] Army, and where were you stationed?$$Fort Jackson, South Carolina [Fort Jackson, Columbia, South Carolina]. Fort Jackson and that's (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) And where was--$$That's--huh?$$Okay, go on.$$Fort Jackson, South Carolina. It was, it was interesting. But, but what happened is--the interesting thing was when I applied for it. You know, they have what they call these recruiters, and when I, when I went there, I--well, reason why I went there--or what I can say of the job market, but I knew they were going to draft me anyway, you know. I had to go anyway, so I, so I, so I volunteered and went. And so when I got there, the recruiters--they were asking me some questions, you know. I was gonna show 'em my portfolio to--you know, I was thinking that if I show 'em my portfolio that they would be kind of compassionate or sympathetic, know what I was interested in or give 'em my bio, and all that kind of stuff. Boy, what you know. They asked me, "Are you--," you know, they saw that--they wondered why I was a, a member of the NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People], and all that kind of thing, they wondering am I a troublemaker, you know, and it, it kind of shocked me and, and, in fact, they, they didn't want to--you know, didn't want me to--they, they was ready to turn me down, you know? And then they, they had a little huddle together--the two, two, two recruiters, and then they, you know, let me go, you know--let me--okayed me. They were gonna turn me down because of my, my portfolio like I had. They thought that--you know, back then, they would--they, they'd, they'd do that. And I, I didn't--I was shocked, but I wanted--really wanted to go so I, I had my chance then to, to not go to service (laughter). God, and I didn't, didn't do it, I could of, I could of stayed out, and they would have--and then they would ask me why, and they said, "Well, I'm, I'm, I'm part--I'm a member of the NAACP," so, so that's what happened (laughter). Now, seriously that's what happened--$Tell us some more of the projects that you have been involved in since leaving the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.$$Well, what happens, I have done, when I left there, there was so many things to do, but I was interested in doing something locally here in District 3 [Atlanta, Georgia] in my neighborhood, and so one day I was mowing my lawn out here, and I said, "Well, sheesh, you know, I get tired a mowing this lawn," so I, I started--looked at the trees and I said, "Hm, you know, those trees, we could do something with those." So what I did, I timidly, embarrassingly, or whatever you wanna call it, put some paint on the trees, you know, just touched it up a little bit. And, and then I, I decided to do some more on it. I said, "Well, I wanna put these trees to work--I wanna decorate these trees." So, I, I painted the trees, and then after I did that, I said, "Well, what I'm gonna call the trees?" So I called 'em laughing trees. And I did this in 1997. Now, I have what we call a Laughing Trees Incorporation [Laughing Trees, Inc.]. I am the CEO, it's a non-profit organization, mission of preserving open spaces and creating indoor/outdoor art projects. It was created and governed and, you know, staffed by completely volunteered people, and I'm gonna--later gonna plan classes and so forth for the local people here, and especially low-income individuals in the area, and I just wanna give them--this is my greeting card to everybody who drive by, walk by, or whatever, bike by, to see and to, you know, give them a greeting card--constant greeting card. And then I--since this been on the Internet, I received some invitations from other people, they wanted--they was interested in this project, so nationally I received word, and also internationally, people have asked me about this, and they want to do the same thing, so that's been gratifying, that's been. That's, that's great.$$Now, some of your artworks have been used in backdrops for movies and--$$Oh, yeah, my, my work is on the Internet and the, and the, a company, the Winterdance Corporation [sic.] in Vancouver [Canada], saw my, my--saw the artwork, and they was sort of interesting because they wanted to do the backdrop, or the background for, for movie houses, and so they, they selected two of my paintings and I sent them the images, and they used them in the movie called 'Snow Dogs,' which came out in 2002. It was, it was--it, it starred Cuba Gooding [Cuba Gooding, Jr.], he was the star in the movie, and it was, the, the, the, the paintings was called 'Down Yonder,' [ph.] and 'Faith Moves Mountains' [ph.]. And it, it worked out good, too. They, they used the images, but I kept the original paintings.

Arthur Burton, Sr.

Arthur Burton, Sr., one of the Pullman Porters was born September 10, 1903, in Winterville, Mississippi. Burton was the oldest of five children. When Burton's mother, who ran a small store, died when he was twelve years old, he accompanied his father to Earl, Arkansas for construction work. His father was a carpenter and Burton helped him build "shotgun houses," small shacks in which one could look through the front door and see straight through to the back.

One Saturday, dressed in his favorite shirt, Burton with the other youngsters "flipped" a train. Burton, who had not mastered the technique, jumped off at the wrong time and was flung down an embankment severely lacerating his head and cracking his skull. He carried a deep scar in his head for the rest of his life. Burton finished grade school when he was in his twenties.

In 1930, he was hired by The Pullman Company and was soon assigned to the Santa Fe Super Chief, California Limited, and the Scout, among others. Being a porter consisted mostly of making beds and cleaning up, but what was most difficult was the way Pullman treated the black porters. Often management would forget to feed porters not adjacent to dining cars. The hours were also grueling. Porters were officially allowed four hours of sleep a night. Working twenty days a month, Porters would average about two hours of sleep a night. The pay was about half that of factory workers. These factors and the blatant disrespect by management and the public, who referred to all porters as "George" caused them to organize behind A. Phillip Randolph in 1924.

Ten years of struggle yielded victory on August 21, 1935. Burton, now living in Chicago, was a member of the Union of Sleeping Car Porters and drove local leaders to and from headquarters at 43rd and Michigan Avenue. Burton was a porter for thirty-eight years and six months. He met celebrities like Gloria Swanson, Bob Hope, Buck and Bubbles, Jack Benny and Eddie Rochester Anderson. Burton was proudest of the fact that with his own hands, he built his own house and that of his son; author Arthur Burton, Jr. in Phoenix, Illinois.

Burton passed away on March 25, 2005 at age 101.

Accession Number

A2002.069

Sex

Male

Interview Date

5/18/2002

Last Name

Burton

Maker Category
Middle Name

T.

Occupation
First Name

Arthur

Birth City, State, Country

Winterville

HM ID

BUR08

Favorite Season

Summer

State

Mississippi

Favorite Vacation Destination

California

Favorite Quote

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Boy, boy, boy.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Arizona

Birth Date

9/10/1903

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Phoenix

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Corn

Death Date

3/25/2005

Short Description

Pullman porter Arthur Burton, Sr. (1903 - 2005 ) was over 100 years old, and a member of the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters.

Employment

Pullman Company

Favorite Color

Red

Timing Pairs
0,0:23180,330:36544,385:96702,717:114438,842:116358,980:138928,1213:139748,1256:165210,1380:167350,1428$0,0:5004,81:10212,171:11142,183:11700,188:43260,393:88420,624:101780,755:126146,1149:128140,1156:148920,1418:169760,1558:172271,1609:184610,1724:188920,1749:194350,1769:237340,2122:254840,2229
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Arthur Burton's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Arthur Burton lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Arthur Burton describes his family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Arthur Burton describes an accident he had while trying to "flip" a train

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Arthur Burton talks about building two homes

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Arthur Burton talks about the irony of his train accident

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Arthur Burton talks about receiving his eight grade diploma

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Arthur Burton talks about seeing white people working in cotton fields for the first time

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Arthur Burton describes his parents' occupations

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Arthur Burton describes his favorite childhood foods

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Arthur Burton describes growing up in Winterville, Mississippi

Tape: 1 Story: 12 - Arthur Burton talks about using a primer and learning his ABC's in school

Tape: 1 Story: 13 - Arthur Burton talks about moving to Earl, Arkansas and his accident "flipping" a train, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 14 - Arthur Burton talks about moving to Earl, Arkansas and his accident "flipping" a train, pt. 2

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Arthur Burton describes why he lied to the doctor about his train accident

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Arthur Burton talks about trying to shoot wild ducks in Winterville, Mississippi

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Arthur Burton talks about terrorizing his little brother during a flood in Winterville, Mississippi

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Arthur Burton talks about his pet calf, Logan

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Arthur Burton talks about moving to Little Rock, Arkansas, pt. 1

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Arthur Burton talks about moving to Little Rock, Arkansas, pt. 2

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Arthur Burton talks about the sandlot baseball people played in Little Rock, Arkansas

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Arthur Burton describes how a boy died "flipping" a freight train in Earl, Arkansas

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Arthur Burton recalls witnessing a murder in Little Rock, Arkansas

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Arthur Burton describes his experiences working for a white man in Little Rock, Arkansas

Tape: 2 Story: 11 - Arthur Burton talks about what he is thankful for

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Arthur Burton describes how he became a Pullman Porter

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Arthur Burton describes his first train routes as a Pullman Porter

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Arthur Burton describes what "deadhead" means in train terminology

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Arthur Burton describes the smell of a train and his first time seeing a black female train engineer

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Arthur Burton describes the tireless hours he worked as a Pullman Porter

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Arthur Burton talks about the time he spent away from home as a Pullman Porter

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Arthur Burton describes his responsibilities as a Pullman Porter

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Arthur Burton describes the dangers of being a Pullman Porter

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Arthur Burton talks about getting caught in a flood on one of his train runs as a Pullman Porter

Tape: 3 Story: 10 - Arthur Burton describes how he avoided being drafted into the U.S. Army during WWII

Tape: 3 Story: 11 - Arthur Burton describes what it was like being a Pullman Porter before the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters

Tape: 3 Story: 12 - Arthur Burton talks about A. Philip Randolph and Milton Price Webster

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Arthur Burton talks about A. Philip Randolph

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Arthur Burton talks about Milton Price Webster and the Chicago headquarters of the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Arthur Burton talks about famous individuals he encountered as a Pullman Porter

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Arthur Burton describes segregated Pullman train cars

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Arthur Burton describes his favorite train route, the Santa Fe Super Chief

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Arthur Burton talks about the Pullman mail train

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Arthur Burton describes the difference between steam and diesel train engines

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Arthur Burton describes how Pullman Porters signaled one another

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Arthur Burton talks about his length of service as a Pullman Porter

Tape: 4 Story: 10 - Arthur Burton talks about having to watch the train passengers' children

Tape: 4 Story: 11 - Arthur Burton describes why some Pullman Porters were fired

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Arthur Burton talks about the Richmond Boys

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Arthur Burton comments on the significance of receiving a pension from the Pullman Car Company

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Arthur Burton talks about retiring as a Pullman Porter

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Arthur Burton talks about meeting his wife and getting married

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Arthur Burton talks about meeting his wife and getting married

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Arthur Burton talks about his love of fishing and frogs

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Arthur Burton shares his thoughts on young people

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Arthur Burton talks about how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Arthur Burton talks about the importance meeting people with unique experiences

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - Arthur Burton's son, Turk Burton, narrates his photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$4

DAStory

5$1

DATitle
Arthur Burton describes the tireless hours he worked as a Pullman Porter
Arthur Burton talks about A. Philip Randolph
Transcript
Now, being a porter [Pullman Porter], was it hard work?$$Hard work?$$Yeah, was it hard work being a porter?$$(Chuckle) I wave my hand at you, talking about hard work. That's about the hardest job you could ever get on, was on those cars. You take--you got--you're supposed to get four hours sleep a night, between the two cars, that are traveling like that. One will go down, 10:00 o'clock, I think till 2:00 and the other 2:00 to 6:00 to get that sleep, see. And nine times out of ten, you supposed to be in the bed at 10:00, you making beds because a lot of people that had rooms, see, call you at different times for you to come make their rooms for them to go to bed. Your time for you to go to bed is there when they calling you to make their beds.$$Okay, I get it, I get it.$$Boy, oh, boy. Boy, oh, boy, oh, boy, oh. Boy.$$So you only were allowed four hours of sleep a night?$$Four hours, yeah, four hours, but you didn't get that. A lot of the time, you didn't get that because the thing of it is, you may lose two of them hours before, you know, you get a chance to get through with your work to go to bed. So like you say, supposed to be four hours sleep you get, but you didn't get that far as that concerned. That's a, that's a--that, that was, look like one of the most killing jobs there ever was, was porter, on a Pullman car, one of the most killing jobs that you could ever want to, ever want to be on.$Okay, now, Mr. Burton, sir, okay, we were talking about the union, and A. Philip Randolph, and--A. Philip Randolph and the union, the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters, right. And what role did you play in that? Were you a voting union member? Did you get active in the union? Were you active?$$Active.$$Yeah, in the union?$$Yeah, yeah.$$Okay.$$Yeah, yeah, in fact, I knew good and well that was the only salvation was left was to get in the union with him because you see the, the thing of it is, the Pull Comp--Pullman Company treat you like (unclear), see. And naturally, when he came in like that, he changed all that stuff. They have you deadheading from here to Los Angeles [California] or something, see, and put you up there on a car like that and don't see to you getting something up there to eat, you know. In other words, they supposed to wire ahead to Fred Harvey to have so many box lunches out there for the porters, you know. Heck, they put you up there and wouldn't get no box lunches for you or nothing, and that's when I would always carry stuff in the bag. I even got the blue bag now, wherever, around here somewhere that I would get stuff and put it in there because when they didn't stop for me to get something to eat, I had something in that bag. Boy, oh, boy.$$Now, you said you met A. Philip Randolph, you met him, right?$$Huh?$$What kind of person was A. Philip Randolph like? What kind of man was he? You met him, right?$$Oh, very--he was, he was a powerful leader. And naturally, see, he was in the position that when they did something wrong to you, to call this meeting, and see to you getting your justice out of it, see, because, you know, they know good and well that, that they wasn't treating you right. That's the, that's, just like you supposed to get your two hours, three hours sleep or something, naturally, he don't give it to you, you know. He see to you getting it. Boy, oh, boy, oh, boy.$$What did he look like?$$Huh, Randolph?$$Yeah.$$He was a nice-looking man. He was a nice-looking man, brown skinned man, very nice-looking man.$$Was he tall or short or what?$$No, he wasn't (unclear) as he is, but he, about his height I think and kind of slender, slender man.