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Louisiana Hines

Beautician, beauty shop owner, painter, and sculptor Louisiana Hines was born on April 13, 1898, in Luverne, Alabama, to Callie and Ben Summerlin; both of her parents were born into slavery. Hines' father was a sharecropper, south of Montgomery, Alabama, in Crenshaw County, and her mother was a homemaker. Hines was the second of seven children who lived and worked on property where her family were sharecroppers.

Hines married the late Arthur Hines and moved to Avon Park, Florida. During the Great Migration of the 1930s and 1940s, the Hines family moved to Detroit, Michigan to seek better social and economic opportunities. Hines worked on airplanes as a riveter during World War II in 1946, before enrolling in Bee Dew Beauty College and receiving her beauty culture license in 1947. In 1948, Hines opened her own salon called L. Hines Beauty Shop in Detroit. Hines had a natural talent for clothing design and taught herself how to sew at an early age. She was an accomplished, self-trained seamstress, being able to make clothing without using patterns. Hines also found ways to express her creativity through painting and wood carving.

At over 113 years old, Hines maintains memberships in numerous civic and social community service groups, including Amvets Auxiliary, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, the Order of the Eastern Star Prince Hall Affiliation and the Red Hat Society. Hines is one of two centenarians featured in two chapters of a book entitled "If I Live to be 100: Lessons from the Centenarians (2004)" by Neenah Ellis, which has been published in several languages. Hines resides in Detroit, where she is a member of Hartford Memorial Baptist Church and a member of the April Birth Month, All States Club, Hartford Women United and Mothers’ Board ministries.

Louisiana Hines was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on June 30, 2007.

Louisiana Hines passed away on February 1, 2013.

Accession Number

A2007.194

Sex

Female

Interview Date

6/30/2007

Last Name

Hines

Maker Category
Marital Status

Widow

Schools

Bee Dew Beauty College

First Name

Louisiana

Birth City, State, Country

Luverne

HM ID

HIN03

State

Alabama

Favorite Quote

Be Obedient To Your Parents

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Michigan

Interview Description
Birth Date

4/13/1898

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Detroit

Country

USA

Death Date

2/1/2013

Short Description

Beauty shop owner and beautician Louisiana Hines (1898 - 2013 ) was the owner and operator of the L. Hines Beauty Shop in Detroit and was well known for living a very active public life past the age of 113.

Employment

L. Hines Beauty Shop

Hotel Jacaranda

DAStories

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493243">Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Louisiana Hines' interview</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493244">Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Louisiana Hines lists her favorites</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493245">Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Louisiana Hines describes her mother</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493246">Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Louisiana Hines remembers her maternal grandparents</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493247">Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Louisiana Hines describes her paternal grandparents</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493248">Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Louisiana Hines talks about her family's farm</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493249">Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Louisiana Hines describes her childhood home</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493250">Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Louisiana Hines recalls picking cotton</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493251">Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Louisiana Hines remembers attending B. Branch School</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493252">Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Louisiana Hines lists her siblings</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493253">Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Louisiana Hines remembers her teachers</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493254">Tape: 1 Story: 12 - Louisiana Hines recalls the lynching of her cousin</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493255">Tape: 1 Story: 13 - Louisiana Hines talks about moving to Detroit, Michigan</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493256">Tape: 1 Story: 14 - Louisiana Hines recalls marrying Arthur Hines</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493257">Tape: 1 Story: 15 - Louisiana Hines describes her job in Avon Park, Florida</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493258">Tape: 1 Story: 16 - Louisiana Hines recalls learning to sew and cook</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493259">Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Louisiana Hines recalls farming in Alabama</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493260">Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Louisiana Hines describes her husband's occupation in Avon Park, Florida</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493261">Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Louisiana Hines remembers moving to Detroit, Michigan</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493262">Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Louisiana Hines recalls seeing a car for the first time</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493263">Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Louisiana Hines remembers opening L. Hines Beauty Shop in Detroit, Michigan</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493264">Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Louisiana Hines describes her neighborhood in Detroit, Michigan</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493265">Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Louisiana Hines recalls working on planes during World War II</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493266">Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Louisiana Hines remembers joining the Order of the Eastern Star</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493267">Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Louisiana Hines recalls selling L. Hines Beauty Shop</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493268">Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Louisiana Hines talks about her hobbies</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493269">Tape: 2 Story: 11 - Louisiana Hines describes Hartford Memorial Baptist Church</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493270">Tape: 2 Story: 12 - Louisiana Hines remembers Detroit's three hundredth year anniversary celebration</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493271">Tape: 2 Story: 13 - Louisiana Hines reflects upon her life</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493272">Tape: 2 Story: 14 - Louisiana Hines remembers her mother's legacy</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493273">Tape: 2 Story: 15 - Louisiana Hines shares her advice to future generations</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493274">Tape: 2 Story: 16 - Louisiana Hines describes how she would like to be remembered</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493275">Tape: 2 Story: 17 - Louisiana Hines reflects upon her legacy</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/493276">Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Louisiana Hines narrates her photographs</a>

Rose Morgan

Born in Edward, Mississippi in 1912, Rose Meta Morgan grew up in Chicago. By 1942, she owned and operated the largest African American beauty parlor in the world. Following the business example of her father, industrious former sharecropper Chaptle Morgan, Morgan began making artificial flowers and convincing neighborhood children to sell them door-to-door at 10. Her skills with hair flowered into a business by age 14.

After attending Morris School of Beauty, Morgan rented a booth in a neighborhood salon and began working full-time. In 1938, she styled the hair of singer/actress Ethel Waters and impressed her so much that Morgan was invited to New York City as Waters' guest. Awed by the city's glamour, Morgan moved there and within six months had established enough customers to open her own beauty shop. Soon, she hired five stylists and signed a ten-year lease on a vacant, dilapidated mansion. By 1946, the Rose Meta House of Beauty had a staff of 29, including 20 hairstylists, three licensed masseurs, and a registered nurse.

Morgan opposed notions of beauty, which hold that kinky hair is bad, believing there is beauty in everyone. She began marketing her own line of cosmetics and staging fashion shows. With her ever-increasing success, Morgan bought a new building. In 1955, Rose Morgan's House of Beauty opened in a more stylish setting with a dressmaking department and a charm school in addition to the existing salon facilities. In the early 1960s, she added a wig salon. Over time, she employed and trained over 3,000 people.

In 1965, Morgan was one of the founders of New York's only black-owned commercial bank, the Freedom National Bank. She retired in the 1970s. Morgan continues to exercise every day and care for her health and beauty.

Contributions of Black Women to America, vol. 1. Kenday Press, 1982.
Ebony Success Library, vol. 1. Johnson Publishing, p. 228.
Notable Black American Women. Gale, 1992, p. 769.

Accession Number

A2002.009

Sex

Female

Interview Date

1/28/2002

Last Name

Morgan

Maker Category
Middle Name

Meta

Organizations
First Name

Rose

Birth City, State, Country

Edward

HM ID

MOR02

Favorite Season

July, August

State

Mississippi

Favorite Vacation Destination

Florida, Atlantic City

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Illinois

Interview Description
Birth Date

8/9/1912

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Chicago

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Salad

Death Date

12/16/2008

Short Description

Personal care entrepreneur and beautician Rose Morgan (1912 - 2008 ) owned and operated the largest African American beauty salon in the world beginning in 1942. In 1955, Rose Morgan’s House of Beauty opened, and included a dressmaking department and charm school.

Employment

Rose Meta House of Beauty

Freedom National Bank

Favorite Color

Blue, Red

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DAStories

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71385">Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Rose Morgan's interview</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71386">Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Rose Morgan talks about her father's background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71387">Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Rose Morgan talks about her father's experience in Edwards, Mississippi</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71388">Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Rose Morgan talks about her mother's background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71389">Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Rose Morgan talks about taking after her parents</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71390">Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Rose Morgan shares her earliest childhood memory</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71391">Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Rose Morgan describes her siblings</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71392">Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Rose Morgan lists her favorites</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71393">Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Rose Morgan describes working during her childhood</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71394">Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Rose Morgan talks about learning to do hair as a child</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71395">Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Rose Morgan describes her family life growing up in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71396">Tape: 1 Story: 12 - Rose Morgan talks about her education at Morris Beauty Academy in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71397">Tape: 1 Story: 13 - Rose Morgan talks about working as a hair stylist and moving to New York</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71398">Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Rose Morgan describes moving to New York to start her own hair salon</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71399">Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Rose Morgan describes the differences between Chicago, Illinois and New York</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71400">Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Rose Morgan talks about starting her business in New York</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71401">Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Rose Morgan describes the techniques she developed in styling hair</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71402">Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Rose Morgan describes her clients in Harlem, New York in the 1930s and 1940s</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71403">Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Rose Morgan talks about her business</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71404">Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Rose Morgan describes the expansion of her salon in New York</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71405">Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Rose Morgan describes Sugar Hill, Harlem, New York</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71406">Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Rose Morgan remembers the construction of Rose Meta House of Beauty, 401 West 148th Street, New York</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71407">Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Rose Morgan describes the experience her salon, Rose Meta House of Beauty, offered her clients</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71408">Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Rose Morgan describes developing her process of styling hair</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71409">Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Rose Morgan talks about developing her curling technique and training her employees</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71410">Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Rose Morgan talks about the success of her growing business in the 1940s</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71411">Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Rose Morgan talks about her clientele, which included Lena Horne and Diahann Carroll</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71412">Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Rose Morgan describes her clients that included Sarah Vaughan and Ella Fitzgerald</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71413">Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Rose Morgan talks about managing her employees at her beauty salons</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71414">Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Rose Morgan recalls her favorite client, Diahann Carroll</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71415">Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Rose Morgan describes her philosophy about black hair</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71416">Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Rose Morgan talks about her styling techniques and treatments</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71417">Tape: 3 Story: 10 - Rose Morgan talks about products she developed and marketed in her salons</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71418">Tape: 3 Story: 11 - Rose Morgan talks about developing her business and management style</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71419">Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Rose Morgan reflects on the difficulty of running such a large business</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71420">Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Rose Morgan describes an average day of running her business in the 1940s</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71421">Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Rose Morgan talks about the national expansion of her business</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71422">Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Rose Morgan talks about the fashion shows she produced at her salons</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71423">Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Rose Morgan describes the beauty business community in New York in the 1940s and 1950s</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71424">Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Rose Morgan describes the production of her hair and fashion shows</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71425">Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Rose Morgan talks about her involvement with 100 Black Women and Ebony Magazine</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71426">Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Rose Morgan describes her philosophy of beauty</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71427">Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Rose Morgan talks about securing funds to expand her business in the 1950s</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71428">Tape: 4 Story: 10 - Rose Morgan reflects on her view of glamor and style</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71429">Tape: 4 Story: 11 - Rose Morgan remembers meeting her future husband, Joe Louis, in Las Vegas, Nevada</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71430">Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Rose Morgan talks about her relationship and marriage to Joe Louis from 1955 to 1958</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71431">Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Rose Morgan describes the annulment of her marriage in 1958</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71432">Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Rose Morgan talks about how her business shifted through the 1960s</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71433">Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Rose Morgan describes her international travels in the 1960s</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71434">Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Rose Morgan talks about starting Freedom National Bank in 1965</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71435">Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Rose Morgan talks about her relationship with Jacoby Dickens, Chairman of the Board of Seaway Bank</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71436">Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Rose Morgan talks about how business in New York was different than in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71437">Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Rose Morgan reflects on the changing trends in women's style over her career</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71438">Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Rose Morgan discusses trends in the African American beauty industry</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71439">Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Rose Morgan describes her business philosophy, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71440">Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Rose Morgan describes her business philosophy, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71441">Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Rose Morgan talks about her management style</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71442">Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Rose Morgan talks about the of closing her salon and her retirement in 1973</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71443">Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Rose Morgan talks about her father's pride in her accomplishments, and her family's working together</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71444">Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Rose Morgan reflects on becoming a successful businesswoman in New York</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71445">Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Rose Morgan reflects on her legacy</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71446">Tape: 6 Story: 9 - Rose Morgan talks about her family</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71447">Tape: 6 Story: 10 - Rose Morgan talks about her hopes and concerns for the black community</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71448">Tape: 6 Story: 11 - Rose Morgan reflects on her influence on black culture</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71449">Tape: 6 Story: 12 - Rose Morgan narrates her photographs, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71450">Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Rose Morgan narrates her photographs, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71451">Tape: 7 Story: 2 - Rose Morgan narrates her photographs, pt. 3</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71452">Tape: 7 Story: 3 - Rose Morgan narrates her photographs, pt. 4</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/71453">Tape: 8 Story: 1 - Rose Morgan narrates her photographs, pt. 5</a>

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$4

DAStory

2$11

DATitle
Rose Morgan talks about developing her curling technique and training her employees
Rose Morgan remembers meeting her future husband, Joe Louis, in Las Vegas, Nevada
Transcript
So you said that it took two weeks to train someone as to your tech...$$[simultaneously] No matter how experienced you were. I don't care where you have... coming from, or what school you went to, or how much practice you had before coming there. But you had to learn my method.$$And wha... who... when you went to hire people, what were you looking for in a person to be, you know, who would be in your salon? 'Cause you were... you definitely were catering to a certain clientele. So I'm just wondering who were you... You know, what attributes would they have? Or what were you looking to make a decision about whether this person could work for you or not?$$'Cause they had to go... come in and demonstrate to me what they could do. And if you couldn't do what we were doing, then you had to work in training for two weeks. So we could teach you what we wanted. We didn't have a person to come in and say, "Here. Here's a customer you do that customer." You had to come in and do a shampoo. You could be a shampoo girl for a month or so. And then we will let you go through with pressing the hair out. And there's a certain way you had to curl. We didn't let you make those little tight curls. You had to curl the way I had learned to curl to get what I want.$$Okay and can you describe that curling technique?$$I didn't give you a [unclear] curl that you wrap it around. You seen people curl their hair and wrap it around. You had to curl that hair and curl it up and roll it up and let those curls come down loose. And that gave you nice loose hair. And gave you any kind of style we wanted to give you. You saw those styles in that book in there. You saw what they look like? That was sixty years ago. You never saw anything like that [chuckling]. But I have it on paper. And I have dates in there to show you when that was done. And how we... with the eye and the ear, the nails. In that book you'll see it again. You just see how those people look. That's my work. And you see I'm not just sitting here saying to you what we did. I have it on paper to show you what we did. But I perhaps could have gone out and said, "Well I'll have a school to train this." But it wouldn't done me any... I couldn't have been any better off than I am now. I just kept up a professional business.$Now let's talk about... How did you meet Joe Louis?$$Oh I went on a junket to Las Vegas [Nevada] when they opened the Moulin Rouge [Hotel]. They had all the press. Nothing but the press and famous people that they flew out there for free overnight. And I was on this plane and I got like seasick. So Joe Louis looked down the list and he saw my name on it. He said, "Rose Morgan! What you bringing her out here for?" So the public relations said, "You don't know who Rose Morgan is?" He said, "Yeah I know Rose Morgan. Who is she?" You know, [chuckling]. "What are you bringing her out here for free?" And when I got off the plane, they said Joe [Louis] was there. And the first girl got off. He said, "Did Rose come?" She said, "I'm here. You asking about Rose and you asking... I'm here. My name... You know who I am." So when I got off the plane, I didn't even look at Joe [Louis]. 'Cause I was like airsick. I went on to a hotel. And I saw him the next day. So when we got... went down for the dinner, they had the music and seating arrangement for everybody. And I thought that I was gonna be seated with the people that I came out with. I went over to this table. And they said, "Rose did you look to see where you're going to be seated?" Said, "You have a seating assignment. We all have seating assignments." So I went over to this table and they said, "your seat" ... Man escorted me. Took me upstairs. And I could look right down on the dance floor. I said, "Where are my friends?" So the people at the table said, "I don't know." I didn't know these people. So by the time the show started, who walked down the aisle but Joe [Louis]. And he sit down beside me. He never said a word to me. I never said a word to him [chuckling]. So when it was over he got up he said, "Well did you like the show?" "I thought it was great," I said and left and went on down to find my friends. Left him standing there. And when he found me, I was at the black jack table. And I had won about five hundred dollars. He said, "Are you gonna try and win all the money?" I said, "That's what I came out here for, you know?" So a friend of mine came up and said, "Girl we'd like to see what this... what is it? The strip on Downing," 'cause you know, this was this hotel they were opening up. The Moulin Rouge [Hotel], Las [Vegas, Nevada]. We wanted to see what the strip was like. So he drove us down and we saw all the bright lights and everything. And when we came back, it was about oh about... the sun was shining. You know. And I rushed on off the ho... off this elevator. He said, "Here you're going... you can come to my room." I said, "No man I got to go to sleep." So I rushed to my room. And my... Jerry Major was the editor of Ebony and Jet. I rushed in there and got about a couple of hours' sleep. Then our plane was ready to leave. So we left. And my phone started ringing when I got home. Joe [Louis] called me for three months before I could see him. I told him, "No, I can't come to Las Vegas [Nevada]. I'm busy." "I can't come to Chicago [Illinois]." Wanted me in Chicago [Illinois]. "I can't come, I'm busy." So when he finally got out here, he had to make an appearance on television. And... on 'Name That Tune' and something else. So then he went up to Buffalo [New York] for something. And he asked me if I would come up to Buffalo [New York]. So one Saturday, I finished with my business about eight o'clock. I got up there about twelve thirty. And he and his business partner, Billy Rowe, were standing waiting for me. And that's how we got started.$$Okay we're gonna change tapes.