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Kalamu ya Salaam

Poet, editor, music producer and arts administrator, Kalamu ya Salaam was born Val Ferdinand III in New Orleans on March 24, 1947. Inspired by the poetry of Langston Hughes and the civil rights movement in New Orleans, Salaam became interested in writing and organizing for social change. Graduating from high school in 1964, he joined the U.S. Army and served in Korea. After service, Salaam attended Carleton College but returned to New Orleans in 1968 to earn an associate's degree from Delgado College.

During the Black Arts Movement, Salaam was a member of John O'Neal's Free Southern Theater for five years and was a founder of BLACKARTSOUTH. Changing his name along the way to Kalamu Ya Salaam, which is Kiswahili for "pen of peace," he was a founder of Ahidiana Work Study Center. He also assumed the editorship of the Black Collegian magazine, a post he held from 1970 to 1983. Salaam published cultural and political essays in Black World, Black Scholar and Black Books Bulletin. In 1977, he was part of the first African American activist delegation to the People's Republic of China.

Today, he is senior partner of Bright Moments, a public relations firm. He is also the founder of WordBand, a poetry performance group; the NOMMO Literary Society, and Runagate Press. Salaam has written seven books of poetry. His play, "The Breath of Life", was honored by Louisiana State University, and "BLK Love Song #1" won a Best of Fringe Award from The Manchester Evening News in England. A respected music writer and critic, he is the arts and entertainment editor for The New Orleans Tribune and is a regular contributor to Wavelength, The Louisiana Weekly and The New Orleans Music Magazine. He was executive director of the New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Festival for many years, and produced "A NATION OF POETS" for the National Black Arts Festival.

Selected Bibliography

Salaam, Kalamu ya. What is Life? Reclaiming the Black Blues Self. Third World Press: Chicago, 1994.

------Tarzan Can - Not Return to Africa But I Can (1996)

------He's The Prettiest: A Tribute to Big Chief Allison "Tootie" Montana's 50 Years of Mardi Gras Indian Suiting. New Orleans: New Orleans Museum of Art, 1997.

------360° A Revolution Of Black Poets. Alexandria, Va.: Black Words; New Orleans: Runagate Press, 1998.

------Magic of Juju: An Appreciation of the Black Arts Movement. Third World Press: Chicago, 1998.

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New Orleans



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Speakers Bureau Honorarium

Yes - $500 - $1,000

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Honorarium Specifics: $750 minimum
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New Orleans



Favorite Food

Red Beans, Rice, Seafood, Beets

Short Description

Poet and music critic Kalamu ya Salaam (1947 - ) was born Val Ferdinand III. He founded BLACKARTSOUTH and Ahidiana Work Study Center. He is senior partner of Bright Moments, a public relations firm. He is also the founder of WordBand, a poetry performance group; the NOMMO Literary Society; and Runagate Press. Salaam has written seven books of poetry.


Ahidiana Work Study Center

Black Collegian

Bright Moments

Favorite Color

Blue, Green

Timing Pairs

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Kalamu ya Salaam's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Kalamu ya Salaam lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Kalamu ya Salaam describes his family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Kalamu ya Salaam describes his parents, Vallery Ferdinand, Jr. and Inola Copelin Ferdinand

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Kalamu ya Salaam describes the sights, smells, and sounds of his childhood

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Kalamu ya Salaam describes his siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Kalamu ya Salaam describes himself as a child

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Kalamu ya Salaam describes New Orleans during the Civil Rights Movement

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Kalamu ya Salaam talks about his involvement with the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) as a student at Carlton College in Minnesota

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Kalamu ya Salaam talks about his experience serving in the U.S. Army in Korea

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Kalamu ya Salaam describes creating a safe environment with other black soldiers in Korea

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Kalamu ya Salaam talks about developing a Third World consciousness in Korea, pt. 1

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Kalamu ya Salaam talks about developing a Third World consciousness in Korea, pt. 2

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Kalamu ya Salaam describes the influence of African anti-colonial leader Amilcar Carbal on his ideology

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Kalamu ya Salaam talks about serving in the U.S. Army in El Paso, Texas

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Kalamu ya Salaam talks about the camaraderie that developed among the black soldiers in Korea

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Kalamu ya Salaam talks about being discharged by the U.S. Army in 1968 and joining the Free Southern Theater in New Orleans, Louisiana

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Kalamu ya Salaam describes his Civil Rights militancy in the late 1960s

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Kalamu ya Salaam talks about his community activism with the Free Southern Theater, Black Collegian magazine, and the Lower Ninth Ward Health Center

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Kalamu ya Salaam describes being part of the first African American delegation to the People's Republic of China in 1977

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Kalamu ya Salaam talks about traveling around Africa, the Caribbean, Central and South America during the 1970s and 1980s in support of anti-colonial liberation movements

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Kalamu ya Salaam talks about co-founding and editing Black Collegian magazine in 1970

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Kalamu ya Salaam talks about the golden age of black magazines in the 1970s

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Kalamu ya Salaam describes his involvement with the Congress of African People in Atlanta, Georgia in 1970

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Kalamu ya Salaam talks about forming the community school and publishing organization, Ahidiana in 1977

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Kalamu ya Salaam describes the ideology behind Black Nationalist Movements in the 1970s

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Kalamu ya Salaam talks about changing his name and aligning with international cultural change movements

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Kalamu ya Salaam reflects on his involvement in various global independence movements as well as his travels to Africa

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Kalamu ya Salaam talks about the global missionary cultural movement's influence in black communities across the world

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Kalamu ya Salaam reflects on lasting changes in the liberation movements of the 1970s

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Kalamu ya Salaam talks about his involvement with the Black Arts Movement

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Kalamu ya Salaam reflects on the rising black prison population

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Kalamu ya Salaam reflects on global capitalism, pt. 1

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Kalamu ya Salaam reflects on global capitalism, pt. 2

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Kalamu ya Salaam describes his writing career

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Kalamu ya Salaam describes his hopes and concerns for the black community







Kalamu ya Salaam describes being part of the first African American delegation to the People's Republic of China in 1977
Kalamu ya Salaam describes his writing career
Yeah, no, so I'm saying that, the this is, this is an analysis that I make, and I don't claim it as my analysis. It's simply an analysis that I make, and a lot of other people have pointed it out before me. I remember the Chinese, we had a meeting with the Chinese, and they were talking about it. When I said, had a meeting with the Chinese, we, we were in China in 1977, all-black tour of-$$Right.$$--educators from independent black schools across the country which we had organized. And while we were there, we, you know, we were--they were taking us around. We went all over China, from--came in at Shanghai, went up to Wuxi, the old capital, Nanking [Nanjing], went over to Xi'an, which is like in the middle of the country, and then from there a couple of other places, and then we flew in to Beijing. But while we were there, after we'd, you know, we'd see all the sights, you know, the tourist things, and then, then of course show you the, the communes and the educational centers and this, that, and the other. We said okay, we wanna have some ideological discussion, and we kept (unclear). So finally, in Xi'an, this was towards the last third of the trip. We were there for I think either nineteen or twenty-one days, something like that, the last third of the trip, and said, "we're gonna have a meeting, and we'll have some discussions in the cotton factory tomorrow night." So fine. We get to the cotton factory. And we're in the room, and these cats walk in and immediately I know this is a different breed than we've seen before. And we have some ideological discussions and struggle, and that's when I heard the Chinese run it down, Jack. I mean the cat said, you know, "after every major war we have advanced, and the United States has lost ground." And they went, they went through and showing it point by point. They said, "We're not afraid of war. We don't want war, but we're not afraid of war; and in fact, we're prepared for war." And they have, in China--I don't know what it is now. This is '77' [1977]. At that time, all of the major cities, there were cities below ground. They had already literally put an infrastructure below ground, because they would--they were certain that there was gonna be a nuclear war, and they were preparing--as, as the guy said, "We are prepared to lose, you know, two hundred million people if this war comes. We are prepared. We know that this is gon'," you know, you know. And they was--I mean I've seen some of the--I have--what I--what, I'm sure what they showed us was just minimal compared to what exists at, existed at that time, but they were prepared for it.$Speaking of beautifying the world, let's talk about your art some. You are--(simultaneous)-$$We always--we've, we've been doing--that's all we been doing (laughter).$$(Simultaneous)-$$I mean that's just the basis from our-$$You can't separate art from life, but-$$Yeah.$$But, and then (unclear)--you, you, you did have a career as poet, as a critic, and, and people read what you write. And you--tell me about your writing career.$$Langston Hughes is the first major influence.$$Did you ever meet Langston Hughes?$$Nope.$$Never got a chance to meet him?$$Second major influence was James Baldwin, whom I met a couple of times; and in fact, Baldwin did a film. One of the film documentaries he did, we shot some sequences of he and I walking through [Louis] Armstrong Park [New Orleans, Louisiana] talking. They didn't use those sequences in the, in the final edit, but he credits me in the, you know, in the credits and so forth and so on. And the third influence was Amiri Baraka, whom of course I'm--I know and worked with and, and continue to work with on, on a number of issues. After that, there are no other literary, direct literary influences except those three. And I would say that was like the first ten or fifteen years. After that, James Baldwin fell off, then [Amiri] Baraka fell off as a literary influence. Langston Hughes has remained a major influence, that's why I work in all genres. There's no genre that I don't work in. I've done a little bit of everything, actually have been more successful than most in terms of playwriting and theater working and so forth and so on. But as far as I'm concerned, all of my writing is filtered through my activity as a, as a human being who's, who decided to be an activist in the transition between segregation and raw imperialism to global capitalism, what we're--the period we're in now. But see, this is gonna change also, not necessarily because of political or military struggles, but because it's--the environment is gonna play a big role in what, what comes next. It's gon' play a major role in what comes next, a major role. And people who, I think, who become active and understand that--and I don't mean environmentalism like we've traditionally known it here. I mean there're some, there're some, there're some doozies coming, some real questions about--we could get into talking about urban societies, what they mean and so forth and so on. I go back to Ibn Khaldūn from North Africa who said that societies are like people. They are born, they grow, develop, mature, and die. And if there is no way--if you don't have it in your, your life cycle a rebirth, and a rebirth can only happen after a death, that is, there's no way to fundamentally change your, your society. Move away or you know, make some, some changes. If that's not, if that doesn't happen, you just gon' die and that's gon' be it. There will be no rebirth, and I think the same thing with America. See, people thing that America's gonna be around forever, but you know, it's only a couple of hundred years, 1776, the foremost started its thing, you understand? And we're not even 300 years later. You understand what I'm saying? So now in terms of the--and to think that humankind has--had societies for over 10,000 years. I ain't nothing but a drop in the bucket, you know. And, and, and this whole question of urbanization, there have been urban societies before. But all urban societies have problems, major--when you, when you get these conglomerations, millions and millions of people in on spot, like, like I always say the way I describe it is, one of the things that rev--all revolutions have to do--have to determine, is how do you deal with shit, both literally and figuratively, when you've got all of these people-$$Waste and management.$$(Laughter) Waste management, waste management becomes a major, a major issue. And I, I tend to think that--I live in a metropolitan area, and I'm not in no hurry to move outside of it. But I tend to think that that's gonna be one of the major struggles that United States is gonna have to deal with. And how they did with it, I don't know. For instance, we're seeing across the country a breakdown of public education. That cannot continue. The public schools cannot continue for another ten years the way they are now.

Stanley Crouch

An outspoken writer and critic, Stanley Crouch was born in Los Angeles, California, on December 14, 1945. Encouraged by his mother, Crouch began writing at the age of eight. Crouch became active in the Civil Rights Movement while in junior high school. After graduating from high school, he attended two junior colleges in the Los Angeles area. While studying at the East Los Angeles Junior College, Crouch worked for a poverty program in East Los Angeles, teaching a literacy class. In August 1965, Crouch witnessed the Watts Riot firsthand. This experience radicalized Crouch and he became a black nationalist.

From 1965-1967, Crouch was an actor-playwright in the Studio Watts Company. While at the Studio Watts Company, Crouch discovered the writings of Ralph Ellison and Albert Murray who became major influences in Crouch's thinking. This influence caused him to turn away from the black nationalist movement, finding it too reactionary. Crouch taught at the Claremont Colleges in California from 1968-1975 and moved to New York in 1975. For his first five years in New York, Crouch played the drums in an avant-garde jazz band, later becoming a staff writer for the Village Voice (1979-88). It was during this time that Crouch started to find his voice as a writer. Then, in the 1980s, he became the spokesperson for popular jazz trumpeter Wynton Marsalis.

Crouch has written articles for the New York Daily News and articles for magazines such as The New Yorker, The New Republic, and Esquire. He is the author of three collections of essays, Notes of a Hanging Judge (1990), The All-American Skin Game, or, The Decoy of Race: The Long and Short of It, 1990-1994 (1995), and Always in Pursuit: Fresh American Perspectives, 1995-1997 (1998) and one novel, Don't the Moon Look Lonesome: A Novel in Blues and Swing (2000).

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Los Angeles



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I'm doing the best I can.

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New York

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New York



Short Description

Newspaper columnist, music critic, and magazine columnist Stanley Crouch (1945 - ) worked as both a playwright and jazz drummer. Crouch published articles in The New Yorker, The New Republic, and Esquire, and he wrote numerous books of essays, including, "Notes of a Hanging Judge," as well as a novel titled, "Don't the Moon Look Lonesome: A Novel in Blues and Swing."


Studio Watts Company

Claremont Colleges

Village Voice

Timing Pairs

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Stanley Crouch interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Stanley Crouch identifies one favorite thing

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Stanley Crouch discusses his parents' background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Stanley Crouch shares stories about his mother's childhood

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Stanley Crouch talks about his siblings and his father's family

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Stanley Crouch shares early memories

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Stanley Crouch recalls life in a multicultural elementary school

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Stanley Crouch discusses his childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Stanley Crouch reflects on his childhood household

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Stanley Crouch talks about his childhood environment

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Stanley Crouch explains his inclination toward introspection

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Stanley Crouch discusses many of the community forces that helped to shape him

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Stanley Crouch talks about his start as a writer

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Stanley Crouch reflects on his community and its treatment of women

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Stanley Crouch reflects on his early interest in girls

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Stanley Crouch talks about the improved occupational choices for women

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Stanley Crouch discusses gender perceptions

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Stanley Crouch talks about the racial composition of his junior high school and high school

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Stanley Crouch discusses gender differences and the natural order

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Stanley Crouch talks about the activities in which he and his friends were involved

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Stanley Crouch discusses aggression and defense

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Stanley Crouch explains how his mother and grandmother encouraged critical self-awareness

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Stanley Crouch discusses the loss of importance in achieving high quality performance in the black community

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Stanley Crouch describes cultural influences and frictions in inner city Los Angeles

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Stanley Crouch recalls the frenzy of the 1965 Watts riot

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Stanley Crouch describes working with illiterate adults

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Stanley Crouch discusses cultural differences and various related issues

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Stanley Crouch identifies lasting memories of the Watts riot

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Stanley Crouch offers his assesment and critique of black nationalism

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Stanley Crouch continues his critique of black nationalism

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Stanley Crouch explains the lost friendship of LeRoi Jones

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Stanley Crouch critiques several black writers and academicians

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Stanley Crouch talks about his various professional endeavors

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Stanley Crouch comments on critiques of his views

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Stanley Crouch talks about writing and being prolific

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Second slating for the Stanley Crouch interview

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - Stanley Crouch discusses his first famous poem, 'A Song for Asoka'

Tape: 7 Story: 3 - Stanley Crouch talks about his plays

Tape: 7 Story: 4 - Stanley Crouch identifies various events that had influenced him

Tape: 7 Story: 5 - Stanley Crouch recalls how Amos Moore's poetry influenced him

Tape: 7 Story: 6 - Stanley Crouch comes to his own understanding of black nationalism

Tape: 8 Story: 1 - Stanley Crouch's disenchantment with black nationalism

Tape: 8 Story: 2 - Stanley Crouch discusses his disaffection with black nationalism

Tape: 8 Story: 3 - Stanley Crouch explains why he rejects 'fake' African identity in black Americans

Tape: 8 Story: 4 - Stanley Crouch explains his fear ofgaining tenure

Tape: 8 Story: 5 - Stanley Crouch discusses his rejection of a tenure-track teaching post

Tape: 9 Story: 1 - Stanley Crouch describes moving to pursue a career as a critic

Tape: 9 Story: 2 - Stanley Crouch shares his insight about and friendship with Ralph Ellison

Tape: 9 Story: 3 - Stanley Crouch views Ralph Ellison as a tragic figure

Tape: 9 Story: 4 - Stanley Crouch details his development as a critic

Tape: 9 Story: 5 - Stanley Crouch reflects on his tenure at the 'Village Voice'

Tape: 10 Story: 1 - Stanley Crouch discusses his book, 'Notes of a Hanging Judge'

Tape: 10 Story: 2 - Stanley Crouch talks about the shift from black to African American

Tape: 10 Story: 3 - Stanley Crouch offers some controversial theories on African vs. black American achievement

Tape: 10 Story: 4 - Stanley Crouch discusses one of his essays, 'All American Skin Game'

Tape: 10 Story: 5 - Stanley Crouch talks about human rights and objects to clitoridectomies

Tape: 11 Story: 1 - Stanley Crouch describes his experience at the 'Village Voice'

Tape: 11 Story: 2 - Stanley Crouch talks about his departure from the 'Village Voice'

Tape: 11 Story: 3 - Stanley Crouch talks about the period in which he published essays

Tape: 11 Story: 4 - Stanley Crouch talks about his novel

Tape: 11 Story: 5 - Stanley Crouch comments on reactions to his novel

Tape: 12 Story: 1 - Stanley Crouch continues discussing his novel, 'Don't the Moon Look Lonesome'

Tape: 12 Story: 2 - Stanley Crouch shares his wife's views of his novel, 'Don't the Moon Look Lonesome'

Tape: 12 Story: 3 - Stanley Crouch talks about criticisms of his novel, 'Don't the Moon Look Lonesome'

Tape: 12 Story: 4 - Stanley Crouch talks about his aspirations as a writer

Tape: 12 Story: 5 - Stanley Crouch discusses his views on affirmative action

Tape: 12 Story: 6 - Stanley Crouch wants the black community to shed its decadent ways

Tape: 13 Story: 1 - Stanley Crouch speculates on how he would lead the country

Tape: 13 Story: 2 - Stanley Crouch comments on black political leadership

Tape: 13 Story: 3 - Stanley Crouch hopes for a renaissance in black America

Tape: 13 Story: 4 - Stanley Crouch examines perceptions of himself by intellectuals and workaday people







Stanley Crouch reflects on his tenure at the 'Village Voice'
Stanley Crouch discusses his book, 'Notes of a Hanging Judge'
What things were significant besides you getting--did you get fired from the 'Village Voice'?$$Oh, you mean for that fight with Harry Allen? Definitely.$$Okay.$$Definitely.$$What things besides that incident? What things were forming you as a person?$$Well, I was getting a lot of.$$That you consider significant.$$Well, for one thing when I was working at the Voice when I was edited by Robert Christgau, by Ellen Willis, by this women M. Mark because she hates her first name Marcia so she goes with M. Mark and is referred to as 'M'."Hi, this is M."--and Karen Durbin, those are four of the best editors in New York City, and they were four of the best that I've ever had. In fact, I've had no editors better than the four of them, and so I think writing pieces that were edited by those four people had a very big impact on my development as a writer because they made me aware of a number of things and things to look out for and stuff like that. I think that had a very--I think they helped me develop. You know, they helped me go my way most effectively so under no circumstances would I ever have traded that experience that I got from being edited by them or working at the 'Voice' where I had such a freedom to write about so many different things because you know departments are so closed off in most publications. You can't write a theater review sometimes, then write about a painter like I did about Bob Thompson. Another time I would write about a review of some jazz band or an article about a jazz musician, then go out and write something about, you know, Jesse Jackson or Louis Farrakhan or whomever it is so I had a very great freedom, and I was able to do a lot of things so I thought that was very--that was a great experience.$$Now when did you start or felt that you had really started developing an audience? Was it almost immediately or was it?$$An audience? I have to tell you I never ever thought about that during that period because it was hard to tell. You know what I mean? See, with newspapers, unless people write in, you don't really know what's going on. All you know is that the newspaper goes out. People buy it. They read it, and then they line there catboxes with it, birdcages, you know, and some homeless people use it for other things, but so you don't really know unless people write you a lot of mail and stuff, and I wasn't getting a lot of mail during that time at the 'Voice'. Every now and then there would be some controversy over something that I wrote, but that didn't really let me know what kind of an audience I had. I didn't begin to understand that until much later in terms of the size of any kind of an audience, and I don't really--at this point I don't think I have any large audience. I mean I had--I'm well-known in New York City because of writing for the 'Daily News' now which I've been doing for the last four or five years, but as far as if I put a book out, people say oh, they got to get that book, I don't think that's true yet, and I don't know that it'll ever be true, I mean because who knows? I don't know.$$In this whole process with the 'Village Voice' you were becoming a man about town sort of because you were writing critiques. You were going around.$$Right. I came to know a lot of people, yeah, and I started--the thing is with New York that you get taken down different paths, and you get invited to this, and somebody writes you a letter. You get this award for that or something or whatever it is, and eventually you come to know these other people. Oh, yes, yes, I've read you, very good, very good, whatever it is, but you see, the big breakthrough was the collection. When 'Notes of a Hanging Judge' came out, that was it, but see, as I point out in the introduction in 'Notes of a Hanging Judge', by virtue of being at the 'Village Voice' at the time that I was there I got a chance to see the brain trust of the feminist movement come forward, and I got to see the homosexual movement emerge. And I got to see how those things had been very badly influenced by the Black Nationalists' kind of separatist attitudes that came out of that which destroyed the 'Village Voice' and created a kind of what they came to call identity politics which I call like a politics of narcissism now. So it was interesting watching these women and these homosexuals go through the same thing in which they were women are better than men, homosexuals. You know there was a thing where a homosexual--I don't even know if he's still alive-- said that it's no longer about gays and straights. He said it's about gay men and women against straight men, he thought at that time.$How did that even come about as the title?$$The title? Oh, well, the title was--it's interesting that you ask that because it was an allusion to [James] Baldwin's book of essays, 'Notes of a Native Son', because you had native son book--I mean Richard Wright, and you had Baldwin's book, 'Notes of a Native Son', and to this day you're the first person who ever asked. Almost 15 years later you're the first person that says what about the title? The title was an allusion on the one hand to Henry Morgan, you know Henry Morgan and about the fact that when he--you know, Henry Morgan was a pirate. And then he became a judge, and when he became a judge in England, he sent a number of these guys that he used to hang out with, his fellow pirates, to the gallows so I was just announcing in the book, in the introduction, that though I may well have been one of you guys in the '60s [1960s] a number of you need to be marched to the gallows, intellectually speaking. So that was part of what was going to happen and also that there was going to be no mercy in this book, that it was not going to be--I wasn't going to come with something like but the brother's trying. Well, he means well or so and so put black people to work. I mean none of those things were good enough for me. Now I have been accused of being an elitist, but then I don't know anyone who's not elitist. That is to say I've never discovered among any people that I've ever met an absolute lack of a hierarchy of what they like. If they're going to eat some fast food, they have a place that they think sells better fast food than something else. If they're buying whatever clothes they're buying, they have an idea what clothes look better than other clothes, and anybody given his or her choice is going to get the best version of what it is that they like, which includes, I'm sure, even people who are into sadomasochism. I'm sure that when they decide to get an ass whipping, they go to the person who gives the best ass whipping. Right? I'm sure of that so I've never met anybody--people say well, you're an elitist. I say well, okay, you dislike, but what do you like? I like baseball. Well, do you think everybody on the team plays equally well? Of course not. That's absurd. Well, who are your favorite players? They never list the sad ones. You know the person who's not an elitist and likes sports? They never--their favorite players are never the ones who mess up all the time who stand on the bench. I've never seen some people say well, that brother sure can sit on the bench, can't he? Yeah, I like the way he turns to the left and right. Looks good in the warmup jacket, don't he? I've never seen anybody say that so I just think that that's all a big fraud when people talk about you're an elitist and I'm not.$$Now back to 'Notes of a Hanging Judge', why did you--was there a lot of thought about the order and?$$Oh, definitely.$$Content? So why did you start with Jesse Jackson?$$I started with Jesse Jackson because the book came out in 1990, and he had run [for President] in 1988, and I thought that a number of the themes that were going to come up in the book were connected to him, and I wanted to use that opening essay as a big overture, and that's why the last essay is out of sequence to 'Body and Soul'. It's not the last essay that was written that's in the book. It was written actually earlier than some of the ones that precede it, but I wanted to end it there because at that point I was able to bring together the things about Afro-American history, about jazz, about black religious music, about the relationship between jazz and Renaissance painting and the art of the Renaissance, and so I thought that a number of the themes that had come up through the book that included, you know, things like black identity about music, about painting, about history, about the South, you know, etcetera, that a number of those things that that would conclude the book well.$$And how long did it take for you to put the book together? I mean the things were already written, but how long did it?$$It didn't take that long. I don't remember how long but not that long. Once I knew what I wanted to do, I figured out the sequence because you always want a book to read well from start to finish. Now as it turns out, most people who buy books of essays do not read them from start to finish unless they're reviewers, but that book was a very--that was a very explosive book. That had a very big impact. That was a very influential book because a lot of writers, I've been told--have told me since then that when they read that book, they decided well, hey, he can do that. I can get up and tell people what I actually think, too, because a lot of people were just lying and faking and frauding in the sense that there were things that they really were disturbed by that they didn't like, and they looked at that book as an announcement of the fact that there was another--we were now past the period where we had to just, you know, see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil among us, but also you know--I mean there's plenty of stuff in there about racism and other things where the other people get their drubbings, too. I always wanted to be like an equal opportunity paddler.$$Is there one essay there that is your favorite?$$Maybe 'Body and Soul'. Maybe the last one just in terms of the structure of the essay because of the way it's organized and the way that the themes are developed and the relationship between the past and the present and all of that and personal memories overlaid by reporting and by things about Roman history and all that since it's set in Italy during the jazz festival in the summer in the late '80s [1980s]$$Were you aware that it was a significant body of work when you came out with it? Were you aware immediately?$$Well, I don't know that you.$$You said a lot of writers afterwards said that it gave them permission, but it was also--et's look at the time. It's 1990.$$'90 [1990], right.$$Who was in office back then? Are we--was Reagan in office? Reagan.$$Yeah, I think. Wait a minute. Was he still in office then in '90 [1990]? No, he was gone.$$He was gone? It was [George H. W.] Bush.$$He was gone.$$Okay, he was gone.$$Yeah.