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Hellen O'Neal-McCray

Civil rights volunteer, Hellen Jean O’Neal-McCray was born in Clarksdale, Mississippi on March 4, 1941 to Willie Long Anderson and Lester Calvin O’Neal. She attended Immaculate Conception School, Myrtle Hall Colored School and Holy Rosary School in Lafayette, Louisiana. Keeping up with current events, O’Neal-McCray knew activist druggist “Doc” Aaron Henry and read the Chicago Defender. A member of the school band, she graduated from W.A. Higgins High School in Clarksdale in 1959.

In 1961, O’Neal-McCray met Southern Christian Leadership Council (SCLC) organizers, James Bevel and Bernard Lafayette and they encouraged her to get involved in the nonviolent Civil Rights Movement. As a student, O’Neal-McCray helped Diane Nash when the Freedom Rides came to Jackson. She and Charles Cox became co-chairs of the Jackson Non-Violent Movement, working with Paul Brooks, Thomas Gaither, Marion Barry, Levaughn Brown, Richard Haley and Jesse Harris. They organized a demonstration at the Southern Governor’s Conference at the Heidelberg Hotel, enraging segregationist Mississippi Governor Ross Barnett. O’Neal-McCray was arrested (the first of many times) for “disturbing the peace and tranquility of the State of Mississippi.” Defended by William Kuntsler, O’Neal-McCray was sentenced to six months, but only served ten days. Soon, her civil rights activity found its home with the Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC). She served as a SNCC staff member before graduating from Jackson State in 1963. O’Neal-McCray, knew and worked with SNCC’s Ella Baker, Bob Moses, Casey Hayden, Annelle Ponder and Fannie Lou Hamer. She taught in a SNCC Freedom School in Mccomb, Mississippi.

In 1965, O’Neal-McCray helped staff the Lawyers Constitutional Defense Committee in Shreveport, Louisiana. She worked for the Southern Regional Council and National Sharecroppers Fund in Atlanta before retiring from intense movement activity. Moving to Yellow Springs, Ohio in 1966, O’Neal-McCray quietly worked at Fels Research Institute and attended Wright State University. She taught school in Springfield, Ohio for twenty-nine years and taught African American literature and composition at Wilberforce University. She attended the 30th Anniversary of Freedom Summer and the 40th Anniversary Freedom Riders Reunion in Jackson, and O’Neal-McCray wrote about her experiences in the Movement.

O’Neal-McCray was married to fellow SNCC activist, Willie McCray and has two grown sons, a grandson and a granddaughter.

Hellen O'Neal-McCray passed away on February 24, 2010.

Accession Number

A2006.046

Sex

Female

Interview Date

3/21/2006

Last Name

O'Neal-McCray

Maker Category
Organizations
Schools

W.A. Higgins High School

Immaculate Conception School

Myrtle Hall Colored School

Holy Rosary School

Holy Rosary Headstart School

W.A. Higgins Middle School

First Name

Hellen

Birth City, State, Country

Clarksdale

HM ID

ONE01

Favorite Season

Fall

State

Mississippi

Favorite Vacation Destination

Beaches

Favorite Quote

It Is Not The Size Of The Dog In The Fight. It Is The Size Of The Fight In The Dog.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Ohio

Birth Date

3/4/1941

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Wilberforce

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Ice Cream

Death Date

2/24/2010

Short Description

Civil rights activist and high school teacher Hellen O'Neal-McCray (1941 - 2010 ) taught African American literature and composition at Wilberforce University. She was a staff member with the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, taught in a Freedom School in Mccomb, Mississippi and worked for the National Sharecroppers Fund in Atlanta, Georgia.

Employment

Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC)

Lawyer's Constitutional Defense Committee

Charles Morgan Law Firm

Wilberforce University

Favorite Color

Red

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Hellen O'Neal-McCray's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray describes her mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls family discussions of lynchings in Mississippi

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray describes her mother's education

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray talks about her siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray describes her father's family background, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray describes her father's family background, pt. 2

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray describes her paternal grandmother

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray talks about her father

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray describes her parents' divorce and who she takes after

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray describes her earliest childhood memory

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray describes the sights, sounds and smells of her childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray describes the role of religion in her childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray describes the schools she attended

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray describes her experiences in school

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray remembers Holy Rosary Institute

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray remembers her favorite teacher

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls Clarksdale's W.A. Higgins High School

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray describes her awareness of civil rights as a youth

Tape: 2 Story: 11 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray remembers her decision to attend Jackson State College

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls attending Mississippi's Jackson State College

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls meeting civil rights organizers in Jackson, Mississippi

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls her arrest in Jackson, Mississippi

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls her decision to become a civil rights activist

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls her activity after being released from jail

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls being arrested for sitting at the front of a bus

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls testifying for Constance Baker Motley in 1961

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls working for SNCC upon graduating from college

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls an experience of police brutality while in custody

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls being questioned by the Federal Bureau of Investigation

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray remembers registering voters with SNCC

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls working on SNCC's Literacy Project, pt. 1

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray describes white activists' involvement in SNCC

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls working on SNCC's Literacy Project, pt. 2

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls the Council of Federated Organizations' founding

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls recruiting college students to SNCC

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray remembers the Chaney, Goodman and Schwerner murders

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls moving to New York

Tape: 4 Story: 10 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray reflects upon the tensions within SNCC

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls the 1964 Democratic National Convention, pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls the 1964 Democratic National Convention, pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray remembers Ella Baker

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray remembers Marion Barry

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls hearing Malcolm X speak

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray describes living in Shreveport, Louisiana

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls meeting her husband, Willie McCray

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray describes her work in Atlanta, Georgia

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls working for Samuel S. Fels Research Institute

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls obtaining a master's degree and teaching in Ohio

Tape: 5 Story: 11 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray reflects upon her civil rights activism

Tape: 5 Story: 12 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray talks about unrecognized civil rights activists

Tape: 5 Story: 13 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray talks about teaching at Wilberforce University

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray describes her favorite authors

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray talks about her students

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray describes her hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray reflects upon her life and legacy

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray talks about her family

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray describes how she would like to be remembered

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Hellen O'Neal-McCray reflects upon the legacy of SNCC

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$3

DAStory

4$9

DATitle
Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls her decision to become a civil rights activist
Hellen O'Neal-McCray recalls an experience of police brutality while in custody
Transcript
Let me ask you this though, let's go back a little bit, but--but--how did you--what compelled you to get involved in the movement in the first place 'cause you hadn't had a history? Now you had a history of being resistant to that--that social order down there as a child, but you hadn't had a--an organizational history of being involved in anything. So, well very few people down there had a history of that I guess. But what, what was it that pushed you over the edge to be involved in the first place?$$I always thought that I should do something, the something I did not know what it was. I always admired people who were integrating schools or who were--the people who were in Little Rock [Arkansas]. Because we read about that and we actually saw that on television. So I had a admiration for people and I just figured that since I was a person who was being discriminated against I should certainly do something. People were coming from up north and everywhere and that I couldn't just sit around and have somebody--but as I had always been taught in my family, you know, to--not to accept things from other people. That the only thing that you should owe people is respect. You don't borrow money, you take care of yourself, you look out for yourself so you aren't in debt. So that might've actually had something to do with it. To go through life not owing anybody anything except respect. So I--that could've really--I felt like people were doing something for me, that I should probably be doing for myself.$And I was arrested with a group of students on demonstration. I was arrested that summer [1963] twice. I was arrested first time with a group of people on demonstration. And then the second time I was arrested, that's the only time I suffered any kind of physical something, I was arrested by myself. I was out canvasing, voter registration, going door to door. And a policeman stopped and he picked me up, he said I was li- I think littering. And I was taken to the city jail. I was sick. It was one of the few times in my life I've been sick. But I was feeling--I was really sick. So the FBI [Federal Bureau of Investigation] came and interviewed me. I don't know how people in the SNCC [Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee] office in Jackson [Mississippi] knew that I was in there, 'cause I hadn't did--I don't remember calling anybody. But the FBI came to see me. I was sick. They told them that they should take me to the doctor. So the guy came--$$Well, wait a minute. What was wrong?$$I had like a probably a flu or pneumonia or something, I'm not sure what it was. But I was just really sick. And so they came at night and wanted, and I told 'em no I wanted to go not anywhere with them at night. So the next morning there had been a fight in the cell, two women were fighting about something that had happened on the street between 'em. And so there had been a fight. One lady had an arm broken. I don't know if the other lady broke it or the police bro- I don't know what happened. So they took us both to the hospital--took us to the hospital. And so as we riding--first when they were going to the police car I had my hair in braids, I'd twist in 'em, and I had a pencil stuck in 'em and the police yanked my hair and took the pencil and said, "Niggers, they ain't got no business, niggers ain't got no business with no pencil in there." They yanked my hair and they yanked it hard enough they pulled the pencil out. But they actually pulled out a shank of hair (laughter). And so we got in his police car and we're sitting in the back of the car and they started to say things like to each other, say, "We ought to push her out of this car and shoot her and say she tried to escape." I was looking at this other lady and I was thinking if they try to push me out, what is there that I can hold on to. 'Cause, you know, I'm thinking these people may really push me out and shoot me. And they kept and finally we got to the hospital. They walked around and checked all the windows and act like I was going escape from the hospital. Like I was a real--and I had borrowed--I was arrested in a dress and I had borrowed from one of the trustees a pair of pants and a shirt and so that's what I had on. The pants were kind of ripped and so they went all around and they were--they were doing that. Then the doctors--I saw the doctor. They gave me two shots, probably penicillin or something. I don't know what they were. But they were hard shots, I mean I bruised so much on my hips from those--those shots. And then they took me back. Now that's the only time that I've been, you know, physically touched or anything like that.

Margaret Peters

Educator, African American history specialist, Margaret Peters was born March 12, 1936 in Dayton, Ohio. Her parents, Mary Margaret Smith Peters, and building contactor, Joseph Andrew Peters, were stalwarts of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP). Attending Irving School, Peters graduated from Dayton Roosevelt High School in 1954. At the University of Dayton, she earned a B.A. degree in 1959 and a B.S. degree in 1963. Peters also received her M.A. degree in 1972 and a supervisors certificate from the University of Dayton in 1974.

Peters began her teaching career at Roth High School in 1963. In 1968, as the black community continued agitated for African American history, Peters was appointed Black History Resource Teacher for the Dayton Public Schools. In 1969, she produced Striving to Overcome: Negro Achievers, which was published by Dayton Public Schools. Johnson Publishing released Peters’ Ebony Book of Black Achievement in 1970. She co-authored with her encyclopedic brother, Wendell Peters, the article “Blacks in Ohio History” in 1980. Her writing also includes numerous articles for the Dayton Weekly News, an African American newspaper, and since 1995, a column, “From The Root,” for the DaytonWeekly News culminating in a 1995 column called “From The Roots.” Also in 1995, the Donning Company published her treasury of African American history called Dayton’s African American Heritage, which has gone into an expanded edition. She was also co-editor of A History of Race Relations in the Miami Valley in 2001. Peters also served as instructor at Sinclair Community College and at Central State University West. Since retiring from Colonel White High School in 1993, she has served as coordinator of the free after-school tutorial program at Zion Baptist Church.

Peters was the recipient of the 1991 Excellence in Teaching Award for the Midwest Region from the National Conference of Negro Women; the National Education Association’s 1993 Dr. Carter G. Woodson Award; the 1993 Meritorious Award from the Southern Christian Leadership Conference and was their 2005 Education Breakfast speaker. From 1993 to 1995, she was elected to the National Executive Council of the Association for the Study of African American Life and History (ASALH). Peters is the recipient of many local awards including Dayton Public Schools’ Teacher of the Year in 1982 and the 2003 Lifetime Achievement Award from the Dayton Chapter of the National Forum for Black Administrators. Cited as one of Dayton’s Top Ten Women, Peters is a board member of the Dayton African American Legacy Institute, Inc. (DAALI) and has earned a block on Dayton’s Wright-Dunbar Walk of Fame.

Accession Number

A2006.043

Sex

Female

Interview Date

3/20/2006

Last Name

Peters

Maker Category
Organizations
Schools

Roosevelt High School

Irving Elementary School

University of Dayton

First Name

Margaret

Birth City, State, Country

Dayton

HM ID

PET06

Favorite Season

Fall

State

Ohio

Favorite Vacation Destination

Rural Retreat, Virginia

Favorite Quote

I Can Do All Things Through Christ That Strengthens Me.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Ohio

Birth Date

3/12/1936

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Dayton

Country

United States

Favorite Food

None

Short Description

High school teacher and historian Margaret Peters (1936 - ) was appointed as the Black History Resource Teacher for Dayton Public Schools. In 1970, Johnson Publishing released Peters’ book entitled, Ebony Book of Black Achievement and later the Donning Company published Dayton’s, African American Heritage.

Employment

Thurgood Marshall High School

Dayton Public Schools

Zion Baptist Church

Favorite Color

Purple

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Margaret Peters' interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Margaret Peters lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Margaret Peters describes her mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Margaret Peters describes her mother's experience at Roosevelt High School in Dayton, Ohio

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Margaret Peters describes her father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Margaret Peters describes segregation in the Dayton Public Schools during the 1930s and 1940s

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Margaret Peters talks about her father's role in writing the architectural history of Zion Baptist Church in Dayton, Ohio

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Margaret Peters describes her family and her earliest childhood memory

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Margaret Peters describes the sights, sounds and smells of her childhood in Dayton, Ohio

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Margaret Peters talks about the Classic Theater in Dayton, Ohio and Paul Robeson's legacy

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Margaret Peters narrates her photographs

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Margaret Peters talks about the black business district in Dayton, Ohio during the early 20th century

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Margaret Peters talks about the destruction of Dayton, Ohio's historically black communities

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Margaret Peters describes the contributions of African Americans from Dayton, Ohio

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Margaret Peters talks about her education at Irving Elementary School and learning black history at church

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Margaret Peters talks about Dunbar High School in Dayton, Ohio

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Margaret Peters talks about Dayton, Ohio's Roosevelt High School in the 1950s

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Margaret Peters talks about her extracurricular activities and her mentors at Roosevelt High School in Dayton, Ohio

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Margaret Peters talks about her undergraduate experience at the University of Dayton in the 1950s

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Margaret Peters describes becoming the Negro History Resource Teacher for the Dayton Public Schools in 1968

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Margaret Peters narrates her photographs

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Margaret Peters describes her interest in black history as a graduate student at the University of Dayton in Dayton, Ohio

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Margaret Peters talks about reading 'Your History: From the Beginning of Time to the Present' by J.A. Rogers as a child

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Margaret Peters talks about the publication of the 'Ebony Book of Black Achievement' in 1970

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Margaret Peters describes the curriculum she developed as Negro History Resource Teacher for the Dayton Public Schools

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Margaret Peters describes resistance to black history education

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Margaret Peters talks about the teaching of black history in schools and churches

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Margaret Peters talks about her involvement with the Association for the Study of African American Life and History

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Margaret Peters talks about the 1974 dissolution of the Negro History Resource office and lobbying for a more inclusive world history curriculum in Ohio

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Margaret Peters narrates her photos

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Margaret Peters talks about the relationship between Ancient African history and Christianity

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Margaret Peters details her involvement with the Wallpaper Project during the 1990s and the 2000s

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Margaret Peters talks about the history of Dayton's West Side and the establishment of the Dayton African American Legacy Institute

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Margaret Peters recalls a story about the Dayton Marcos and the Great Dayton Flood of 1913

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Margaret Peters talks about notable Dayton individuals and families

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Margaret Peters talks about the future of black history education in Dayton, Ohio

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Margaret Peters describes efforts to commemorate prominent African Americans from Dayton, Ohio

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Margaret Peters describes her hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Margaret Peters talks about teaching religion in public schools

Tape: 4 Story: 10 - Margaret Peters narrates her photographs

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Margaret Peters talks about the role of the family

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Margaret Peters talks about the first edition of 'Dayton's African American Heritage'

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Margaret Peters talks about the second edition of 'Dayton's African American Heritage'

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Margaret Peters talks about the Chicken Bone Express and the Freeman Field Mutiny

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Margaret Peters talks about her involvement in black history organizations in Dayton, Ohio

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Margaret Peters considers what she would have done differently in life

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Margaret Peters reflects upon her legacy

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Margaret Peters talks about her family

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Margaret Peters describes how she would like to be remembered

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - Margaret Peters narrates her photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$3

DAStory

9$3

DATitle
Margaret Peters describes becoming the Negro History Resource Teacher for the Dayton Public Schools in 1968
Margaret Peters talks about the publication of the 'Ebony Book of Black Achievement' in 1970
Transcript
Okay. So where did you start teaching?$$I started at Roth [High School, Dayton, Ohio], which was a high school at that point--and though my teaching fields were English and social studies and Spanish, I started out teaching reading because so many of the high school students could not read, or couldn't read at grade level. So I took some coursework at Miami [University, Oxford, Ohio] and started teaching reading at Roth. And then about '67 [1967], [Arthur] Art Thomas was one of the teachers at Roth at that point, and he and I and some of the others were concerned about the lack of black history. So we started going to the Board of Education, and pushing for the inclusion of black history in the Dayton Public Schools. And the superintendent was Dr. Wayne Carle, and so he arranged to have a citywide meeting where Dr. Charles Wesley was going to be the keynote speaker. But Dr. Wesley was ill and didn't come. And so I stood in for him and spoke about black history. You know, some of the major phases, why it was important to include it. And so after that meeting I was appointed as the Negro History Resource Teacher for the Dayton Public Schools.$$Now, that's quite a--we may have skipped over a lot of ground here to get there, but to be able to substitute for--$$Dr. Charles Wesley, yes.$$Who was the president of Central State [University, Wilberforce, Ohio]--$$Right, and he was president of ASALH [Association for the Study of African American Life and History].$$The confidant and co-Author with--$$Dr. Woodson.$$Dr. Carter G. Woodson of many black history books, a national recognized--$$Oh, yeah, brilliant man.$$--Leader of black history. I mean to be able to substitute for him is quite a--I mean how did you get to that point? I mean you just didn't jump up and--$$Well, I always loved history and I had done a lot of reading, and this was about the time that [HM] Lerone Bennett [Jr.] was doing a lot of writing for Ebony Magazine. A couple of years after that, The Dayton Daily News had serialized his, "'Before the Mayflower[: A History of Black America, 1619-1962]' and they asked me to write a biography to go with each of the twenty chapters. And I had done a lot of speaking in the community on different phases of black history. And so, he--when he asked me to speak, I was able to do that without a whole lot of preparation. I have a very good memory also, and so I could start with, you know, Africa the home of man and talk about Egypt is in Africa even though a lot of people would prefer that it not be there. And we'd talk about the fact that when [Christopher] Columbus got here, not knowing where he was, black people were already here. And we could kind of go chronologically and hit a lot of the main points. And because so much of that was new to a lot of the teachers who had come through just a regular school system, they simply didn't know what we considered just basic facts of history. And so as Negro History Resource Teacher, I would do workshops in the area. We prepared newsletters, we talked about how you include black culture regardless of what subject you're teaching whether it's science or math or literature. That we belong in all of those, it's not just history. So I worked in that area from '68 [1968] to '74 [1974], then in '74 [1974], I went to Colonel White High School [now Thurgood Marshall High School, Dayton, Ohio].$'Cause you're--the biographies that you wrote for the [Dayton] Daily News were I guess compiled to make the 'Ebony Book of Black Achievement?'$$Yes. What happened is, you know, 'Before the Mayflower[: A History of Black America, 1619-1962'] is an excellent book, but there's not much on any individual in it. So the news ran at twenty episodes. And with each episode, they asked me to write a biography of someone who lived during that time period. So we started with Mansa Musa, you know, the ruler in West Africa. And then we just went chronologically up through people like, you know, [Frederick] Douglass and I think we had Crispus Attucks in there. And Paul Cuffee and Mary McLeod Bethune and Mr. [Charles Clinton] Spaulding, the businessman and we ended with W.E.B. Du Bois. And then those were compiled in a book--a booklet, which went to the Dayton Public Schools ['Striving to Overcome: Negro Achievers']. And I took a few of them and sent them to Johnson Publishers and asked if they would be interested in publishing them. And they published it as the 'Ebony Book of Black Achievement' in 1970. And a lot of schools began to use it and some still use it to supplement American History because the biographies are, you know, relatively short. The illustrations by Cecil [L.] Ferguson are excellent. And so it's, that was the first published book.$$Now we were--when we found out that someone from Dayton [Ohio] did that, we were very proud. I mean, you know, in Dayton.$$Oh yeah. We got a lot of good comments on it. I did an interview some time ago in Yellow Springs [Ohio] with a young man who was from out of state, and he was familiar with the book because his teacher had used it when he was in the eighth grade. And when I was teaching at Colonel White [High School, now Thurgood Marshall High School, Dayton, Ohio], the book was there and the students would look at the picture in the back where I have all this black hair, and they would say, "Is that you Miss Peters?" I said, "Well, yes it is but that was back in 1970." So--$$The students assumed you always had grey hair?$$Oh, yeah. They can't--it's hard for them to imagine teachers being younger than they actually see them, yeah.

Maxine Duster

Civic leader and educator Maxine Duster was born on August 23, 1939, in the all black town of Pelham, Texas, which was founded by her newly freed ancestors in 1866. Graduating from Pelham High School in 1956, Duster earned her B.S. degree in education from Texas Southern University in 1961. She would go on to earn masters degrees from Governors State University and National Louis University, both in Illinois.

Duster taught in the Chicago Public School System from 1961 through 1979. From 1982 to 1989, she served as manager of community relations for Michael Reese Hospital. Duster served as a member of the Board of Directors for the Harold Washington Foundation for several years, starting in 1987. Duster was director of the Chicago Urban League’s education-focused Smart Program from 1989 to 1991. She also served as vice principal and principal of the Corporate Community School of America from 1991 to 1995. Duster directed the Working in the Schools (WITS) program from 1995 to 1996. From 1997 to 2006, she managed the Reach Out and Read pediatric literacy program for Illinois’ Cook County Hospitals.

Well-known for her civic involvement, Duster serves on the Leadership Advisory Committee board of the Chicago Art Institute, the Legacy Fund Board of Advisors of the Chicago Community Trust and is a past president of the Chicago Child Care Society. She has served for many years as a founding member of the Black Creativity celebration at the Museum of Science and Industry.

Duster is married to Donald Duster. They live in Chicago and have three grown children: one daughter, Michelle, and two sons, David and Daniel.

Accession Number

A2005.269

Sex

Female

Interview Date

12/22/2005

Last Name

Duster

Maker Category
Occupation
Schools

Pelham School

Texas Southern University

Governors State University

National Louis University

First Name

Maxine

Birth City, State, Country

Pelham

HM ID

DUS01

Favorite Season

Summer

State

Texas

Favorite Vacation Destination

Anywhere Warm

Favorite Quote

If You See It, Believe It.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Illinois

Birth Date

8/23/1939

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Chicago

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Cookies (Cinnamon)

Short Description

High school teacher Maxine Duster (1939 - ) has contributed to many aspects of education and children's welfare in Chicago. A former teacher and principal, she also directed the Chicago Urban League’s education-focused Smart Program, and managed the Reach Out and Read pediatric literacy program for Illinois’ Cook County Hospitals.

Employment

Corporate Community School

Michael Reese Hospital

Morgan Park High School

Caldwell School

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
0,0:3493,81:4546,96:13654,196:13978,201:16894,241:17785,256:21187,389:21754,397:23455,431:24913,450:25480,459:25804,464:26128,469:28234,496:32010,501:35430,578:36285,589:41670,610:43881,637:44752,657:46427,673:47231,687:47834,699:48973,717:49911,740:50246,747:52725,802:59754,892:61914,933:63426,963:64938,981:66522,1012:66954,1019:74697,1080:75775,1097:78239,1136:78932,1147:79471,1155:85441,1238:87132,1264:94783,1359:108788,1505:109164,1510:110728,1519:112039,1541:112315,1546:112660,1552:113143,1560:113833,1578:114385,1587:115420,1604:115696,1609:116179,1617:116662,1626:117490,1646:117766,1651:120485,1666:120777,1671:121288,1680:121945,1690:123770,1723:124792,1735:125303,1748:125887,1758:131946,1855:132238,1860:133479,1882:134428,1901:151350,2123:151758,2130:152030,2135:154002,2171:154274,2177:154546,2182:156450,2199:157130,2210:158218,2239:158898,2265:173240,2426:174608,2445:177290,2466$0,0:10488,222:11640,245:12000,251:14160,285:15168,303:17400,325:17760,332:19128,349:20208,369:21936,403:24168,475:24672,483:37560,663:50314,790:50818,799:51106,804:55210,890:56074,908:56938,921:59386,1027:59674,1032:59962,1037:63130,1084:64066,1099:64858,1112:69034,1177:76390,1204:77065,1215:88240,1394:89290,1412:89890,1422:90565,1432:91540,1449:100535,1523:100913,1531:101480,1541:101732,1546:102362,1561:103307,1574:105953,1622:107213,1635:107654,1643:112660,1684:113640,1704:115810,1719:116370,1728:117420,1740:117910,1748:121890,1790
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Maxine Duster's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Maxine Duster lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Maxine Duster describes her mother's side of the family

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Maxine Duster describes her family's community in Pelham, Texas, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Maxine Duster describes her mother's education, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Maxine Duster describes her mother's education, pt. 2

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Maxine Duster describes her father's side of the family

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Maxine Duster describes her family's community in Pelham, Texas, pt. 2

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Maxine Duster describes Zeno Carroll's significance in Pelham, Texas

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Maxine Duster describes her father

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Maxine Duster reflects upon her parents' upbringing and education

Tape: 1 Story: 12 - Maxine Duster describes her parents' personalities

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Maxine Duster describes her earliest childhood memories

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Maxine Duster describes the sights, sounds and smells of growing up

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Maxine Duster describes her paternal great-grandfather's storytelling

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Maxine Duster remembers popular radio programs

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Maxine Duster recalls segregation in Pelham, Texas

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Maxine Duster reflects upon women's athletics from her childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Maxine Duster describes her time at Pelham School in Pelham, Texas, pt. 1

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Maxine Duster describes her time at Pelham School in Pelham, Texas, pt. 2

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Maxine Duster describes Wesley United Methodist Church in Pelham, Texas

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Maxine Duster recalls her decision to attend Texas Southern University

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Maxine Duster remembers her time at Texas Southern University, pt. 1

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Maxine Duster remembers her time at Texas Southern University, pt. 2

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Maxine Duster recalls attending an event featuring the Kennedys in Houston

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Maxine Duster recalls President Lyndon Baines Johnson's support for civil rights

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Maxine Duster talks about her civil rights involvement

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Maxine Duster describes her year-long break from Texas Southern University

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Maxine Duster remembers her teaching career in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Maxine Duster describes her teaching experience in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Maxine Duster describes her family and volunteer activities in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Maxine Duster describes Chicago Focus for Women: Black and White, pt. 1

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Maxine Duster describes Chicago Focus for Women: Black and White, pt. 2

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Maxine Duster remembers Chicago's Willis Wagons

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Maxine Duster remembers civil rights activities in Chicago and Dallas

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Maxine Duster reflects upon her volunteerism

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Maxine Duster recalls Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.'s assassination

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Maxine Duster remembers addressing curriculum challenges as a teacher

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Maxine Duster describes her volunteer activities in the 1980s

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Maxine Duster describes her graduate studies in communication science

Tape: 4 Story: 10 - Maxine Duster describes becoming assistant principal at Chicago's Corporate Community School

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Maxine Duster describes Chicago's Corporate Community School, pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Maxine Duster describes Chicago's Corporate Community School, pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Maxine Duster describes Working In The Schools and Cook County Health and Hospitals System

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Maxine Duster remembers her involvement with the Harold Washington Foundation

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Maxine Duster describes her hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Maxine Duster reflects upon her life

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Maxine Duster reflects upon her family's relationship to Ida B. Wells

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Maxine Duster reflects upon her legacy

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Maxine Duster describes how she would like to be remembered

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - Maxine Duster reflects upon her identity as a former Pelham resident

Tape: 5 Story: 11 - Maxine Duster reflects upon her educational experience in Pelham, Texas

Tape: 5 Story: 12 - Maxine Duster remembers her father and uncle's deaths

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Maxine Duster narrates her photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

5$5

DAStory

3$4

DATitle
Maxine Duster describes Working In The Schools and Cook County Health and Hospitals System
Maxine Duster remembers her involvement with the Harold Washington Foundation
Transcript
WITS? W-I-T-S (simultaneous).$$(Simultaneous) WITS, W-I-T-S, it's an acronym for Working In The Schools [Chicago, Illinois]. It was founded primarily by Joanne Alter [Joanne H. Alter], who was a very active politician, and she was involved with the Water Reclamation [Metropolitan Sanitary District; Metropolitan Water Reclamation District of Greater Chicago] for a long time, so she and another person [Marion Stone] founded the organization. The idea was that they would engage volunteers to work primarily in the Cabrini [Cabrini-Green Homes, Chicago, Illinois] schools as tutors and mentors, and then it really grew beyond that so that, you know, the program for the volunteers as well as the students, changed dramatically. I mean, when I first got there, I really added a lot to it, you know, training for the volunteers by experts, you know, who knew how to deal with children both academically, emotionally, et cetera, so that was one of the principal things that I was able to do, and then move to a larger location, so, you know, but anyway, we--I guess we're not as compatible as we could have been in order to--for me to maintain a comfort level there. So, anyway, I stayed out for a few months and then ended up with the position that I have now, which is under the bureau of Cook County [Illinois], I should say Cook County--not Cook County Hospital [Cook County Health and Hospitals System], but so I run a pediatric literacy program there working with children ages six months through five years to introduce literacy to them while they're waiting for their doctors' appointments and also working with the parents during that same time period so that they can learn the importance of literacy by way of introducing books to the children, reading to the children, and so forth, and also model reading techniques to them and giving them some guidance as to how to choose appropriate books for their children and then how to manage their children while they're in the process of interacting with them, and so forth. It's a wonderful, wonderful program; it's very time-consuming, tiring energy-wise, but I really like working that program. It's kind of like, it's like maybe in my retirement phase, or whatever, but it's something I can do that I think is giving back to the community. I can contribute whatever expertise that I have in that area and then help somebody, you know, move along the way that's going to provide a better path for them.$Let me backtrack a little bit to the [Mayor] Harold Washington days. We didn't cover that and we didn't go back to that--$$No, we didn't.$$But 1983, now were you--how were you involved in the Harold Washington campaign?$$Just, you know, as any other person would be. I remember some friends and I got together and held the first, really official, gathering of Harold Washington in her house. She was living in the South Shore [Chicago, Illinois] and had one of those very sizable houses, so we called all of our friends and we pooled our money. We pooled our money to make that happen, and it was just overflowing, so that was one of the initial involvements that I had with Harold Washington, and it grew from there, just do little bits and pieces as a volunteer to make it happen, so that was very rewarding. As I said, I mentioned to you I had some interactions with him when I was working community relations at Michael Reese [Michael Reese Hospital and Medical Center, Chicago, Illinois], and so, you know, we got to know each other really well through those encounters and then, when the decision was made to put a foundation together, which was following, well, it really became--well it was during his last months there when it was put together.$$In 1987?$$Yeah, um-hm, so it was working really well. It got a lot of recognition, you know, several events were held that were very successful, and I think the important thing for me was that, you know, when you're asked by the mayor, you know, to put--to be a part of something like that that's so significant, that is the reward in itself, and then you know exactly your purpose there, why it's, you--the purpose of the organization and an opportunity to generate revenue, to support activities that he felt so strongly about.

Rachel Brown

Lifelong educator Rachel Hall Brown was born on November 16, 1912, in Glen Burnie, Maryland. Brown’s mother was a homemaker, and her father sold produce that he grew on their farm. She grew up the fourth of fourteen children. As she grew older, she was sent to live with relatives in nearby Baltimore because Glen Burnie did not have a high school for blacks to attend. Brown attended and graduated from Frederick Douglass High School in Baltimore in 1928. Douglass was also the alma mater of former Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall and entertainers Cab Callaway and Anne Brown.

Upon graduation, Brown planned to attend Morgan State University, but was unable due to financial reasons. Instead she attended Coppin State University where she earned her degree and graduated in 1930. She received her first teaching assignment upon graduation at Skidmore School in Anne Arundel County, where she taught first, second and third grades. In 1932, Brown was reassigned to Jones School, where she met and married her husband, Philip Brown, who was the principal of the two-room school where they both worked. Shortly after her marriage, she and her husband attended classes at Morgan State University where both earned their bachelor’s degrees in education. In 1938, her husband led the effort to sue the Anne Arundel Board of Education for equal pay for African American teachers. The teachers were represented by former Supreme Court Justice, Thurgood Marshall. In 1955, Brown earned her master’s degree in education from New York University.

In 1966, Brown helped to integrate Anne Arundel County public schools when she was one of the first black teachers assigned to teach at Tyler Heights School. In 1970, Brown was appointed to the White House Conference on Children and Youth, an organization that promoted understanding of child development and fostering children’s mental and emotional health. Brown retired from the school system in 1973.

Brown passed away on April 12, 2012 at age 99.

Accession Number

A2004.062

Sex

Female

Archival Photo 1
Interview Date

6/3/2004

Last Name

Brown

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Middle Name

Hall

Organizations
Schools

Marley Neck School

Frederick Douglass High School

Coppin State University

Morgan State University

New York University

Archival Photo 2
First Name

Rachel

Birth City, State, Country

Glen Burnie

HM ID

BRO22

Favorite Season

Summer, Winter

State

Maryland

Favorite Vacation Destination

Honolulu, Hawaii

Favorite Quote

Thank you, God.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

District of Columbia

Birth Date

11/16/1912

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Washington

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Hen (Cornish), Crabcakes

Death Date

4/12/2012

Short Description

Elementary school teacher and high school teacher Rachel Brown (1912 - 2012 ) was an educator for over four decades, and was instrumental in integrating Anne Arundel County in Maryland. In 1970, Brown was appointed to the White House Conference on Children and Youth.

Employment

Skidmore School

Jones Elementary School

Stanton School

Tyler Heights School

Favorite Color

Blue, Pink

Timing Pairs
0,0:300,4:9922,84:12025,96:12475,103:12775,108:13300,118:14050,131:14950,144:15250,149:15775,157:16975,193:17650,203:18175,211:18475,216:19000,225:19750,244:20050,249:20800,262:23950,276:24278,281:25016,293:26919,365:27417,373:27998,382:28330,387:31069,458:31567,466:32231,476:32729,488:35302,533:38420,538:39055,544:39563,549:41173,620:41743,631:42541,645:42997,655:44365,687:44878,697:61520,878:62152,888:73792,1058:74856,1078:75236,1084:77498,1140:78100,1149:79046,1164:79390,1169:80078,1179:82314,1253:86528,1349:87388,1361:87732,1366:91430,1372:93384,1386:93804,1392:95232,1415:95568,1420:96660,1497:98676,1532:101239,1545:102650,1571:106197,1614:107169,1629:107655,1637:110328,1679:113163,1727:113811,1737:121487,1762:123658,1778:124063,1784:124792,1794:133260,1866:133900,1882:135660,1893:138275,1913:138725,1921:139325,1934:140075,1944:140750,1957:141200,1965:148838,2016:152046,2043:152670,2053:153918,2113:159242,2137:166357,2182:167326,2209:167611,2215:170796,2238:172476,2258:173036,2264:174102,2284:174392,2290:182078,2363:182382,2368:183750,2388:184054,2393:184586,2401:185650,2418:187018,2485:194058,2553:194374,2558:195243,2575:195559,2580:196270,2592:198324,2643:199509,2706:202116,2743:204802,2803:205197,2810:205513,2815:206066,2824:210802,2837:211138,2842:211642,2855:212482,2868:212818,2873:213322,2880:216344,2906:219705,2945:220095,2959$0,0:640,11:1200,21:1550,27:1900,33:3020,47:3790,60:4140,66:6030,87:7500,111:8620,152:9040,164:9460,226:10650,245:11210,255:12960,291:20805,392:44565,682:45240,692:46215,710:48015,747:57411,839:59901,898:60648,912:62059,933:62391,938:63221,950:64051,965:64798,977:68696,996:71800,1021:72544,1031:72916,1036:73288,1041:74776,1056:78720,1093:79032,1098:82152,1194:82464,1199:85860,1226:86952,1243:88128,1259:88464,1264:88800,1269:90060,1286:90816,1297:92244,1324:94176,1352:102530,1407:104105,1427:104525,1432:104945,1437:105365,1442:105995,1450:112348,1496:114770,1507:115082,1512:115862,1525:116564,1539:117890,1561:118202,1566:119294,1586:120542,1600:120854,1605:121400,1613:126314,1705:126704,1711:131012,1728:132227,1839:134738,1875:135224,1880:139598,1951:140165,1960:140732,1969:141461,1981:142514,1996:143405,2010:151268,2023:151784,2030:152128,2051:152472,2056:154794,2081:155224,2087:155654,2093:168011,2204:168343,2223:168841,2230:169339,2237:169920,2245:170252,2250:170584,2255:171082,2262:174114,2282:175270,2300:175542,2305:176698,2325:177378,2336:177718,2344:179078,2377:179350,2382:185083,2426:185629,2437:187005,2442
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Rachel Brown interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Rachel Brown lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Rachel Brown recalls her mother

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Rachel Brown relates how her parents met

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Rachel Brown remembers her father

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Rachel Brown discusses her family background

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Rachel Brown shares childhood memories

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Rachel Brown describes her siblings

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Rachel Brown describes her childhood community

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Rachel Brown recalls her elementary school

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Rachel Brown discusses the intersection of school and church life

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Rachel Brown recounts her high school years

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Rachel Brown remembers her college aspirations

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Rachel Brown reflects on her college experience

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Rachel Brown recalls her first teaching job

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Rachel Brown recalls teaching at Skidmore School

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Rachel Brown details the effects of 'Brown vs. Board of Education' on school integration in Maryland

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Rachel Brown describes her teaching career after integration

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Rachel Brown shares her thoughts on integration

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Rachel Brown discusses the changes needed in elementary school education

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Rachel Brown remembers the White House Conference on Children and Youth in 1970

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Rachel Brown discusses contemporary education issues

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Rachel Brown discusses the need for mothers to be in the home

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Rachel Brown reflects on her life and career

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Rachel Brown offers her advice to educators

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Rachel Brown reflects on her career and family life

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$4

DAStory

3$1

DATitle
Rachel Brown describes her teaching career after integration
Rachel Brown remembers the White House Conference on Children and Youth in 1970
Transcript
And don't you know in the spring of '66 [1966], before that material had started to come in and that's when they said we've got to integrate in Anne Arundel County [Maryland]. And they had to integrate because they were not going to send them that money in the fall. And so they came in the school [James A. Adams Park Elementary School, Annapolis, Maryland] and told us where we were going. Now Philip [husband, Philip Brown], they allowed Philip to say that he wanted to stay in his school. But now remember, Philip was in the only black high school [Wiley H. Bates High School, Annapolis, Maryland]. I was in an elementary school with a plenty of elementary teachers. I was the assistant principal. And so when they brought me in there and said, "Well, where--where do--what--either Mr. Nowell (ph.) will have to go or you have to go. 'Cause they're not gone have two black and white, blacks." So Nowell looked at me and I looked at Nowell. Now he was the Principal. So he said, "Well I'm gonna stay." Well I said, "Well I'm not going anyplace unless I go down to Tyler Heights [Elementary School, Annapolis, Maryland]." And that was down this way, next school to this. Not the Hillsmere [Elementary School, Annapolis, Maryland] was not built. And Georgetown East [Elementary School, Annapolis, Maryland] was not built. But Tyler Heights did this whole area, all the white children. And it was a Blue Ribbon School [U.S. Department of Education's award for academic excellence] because it had all the [U.S.] Navy people. And they wanted to go to that school. And so I went down. They told me what day to go down to interview the principal--or the Principal interviewed me. He interviewed me like I was a brand new teacher. And he did not want a white--a black Assistant Principal. And you could see it on his face.$$What was it like for the parents and the students?$$Well as I told you, most of those people were Navy people. And most of them were educated. And really in the schools, my first job there was to get books for them to tutor their own children at home. These were white children. And our poor black children. Oh Lord! You talking about walking the road. We were still walking the road. And that was '66 [1966] after that.$$How were the black children faring?$$Well everybody was told that they couldn't do. They'd keep telling us--if they tell anybody else on TV, "I'm going through the TV. I don't want them to tell our children they can't learn. I don't want anybody." And I've told them that. And I've been on the TV. I've been to the schools. And I've been everywhere and told them. Been up to Jones [Elementary School, Severna Park, Maryland]. Jones is all--mostly white now. And they got a blue ribbon. And I told them it was blue ribbon when I went into the school. And they told them it always was a Blue Ribbon School. And they got our books and my pictures up there, on the wall. (laughs)$So tell me about the White House Conference on Children and Youth initiative in 1970?$$Well you see the [U.S.] President's [Richard Milhous Nixon] aide came to the school [Tyler Heights Elementary School, Annapolis, Maryland] with my invitation because I wasn't on the list when they mailed them out. And oh my--but that limousine and him coming in there. And oh they ran to get me. "Mrs. Brown, it's the President's aide is in here for you." So I went there. And I didn't know that Dr. Allen was going to get it to--worked out. And I was suppose to go. Of course, my principal, he had to get permission from the [Maryland] Board of Education. So I called the--our board of education person who was in charge of the black school. "Oh yes indeed, Mrs. Brown. You can go." And I didn't ask her to pay my way. I had to pay my own hotel. And we went over there [Washington, D.C.] for that week. And we were promised--oh we were promised so much. And get back to the integration. If I could get for all of our children, what they promised us at that conference, oh I wish you could have been--,$$(Simultaneously) What kinds of thing did they--,$$--to those lectures.$$--promise?$$Oh they promised us that they were going to put the money into it. They were going to put the schools in shape. They were going to teach every child--that was what it was, the right to read. And every child has a right to read. And that when they tell us that all of our children can't read, you know right well that that's a lie right there. Because if you get so many thousand, even with this dyslexia that they're talking about--I didn't know anything about it. But we sat there and we got those children doing something. Even Benjamin [learning disabled student in her first grade class at Skidmore School, Skidmore, Maryland] got to do something. And he--oh he'd love to tell everybody. "What class you in?" "I'm in the opportunity class. Mrs. Brown is going to give me the opportunity to learn all the stuff." And that's what they promised. They promised us that at that White House conference. And I got the tapes in there, the story.$$Do you feel like the promises were fulfilled?$$No. And they haven't--they really didn't fulfill what they really promised to give us because, you see, when they say, "With all deliberate speed," that was just like saying, "Take your time. Don't do it." And some of them took that, took that.

Audrey Grevious

Social activist Audrey Grevious was born in Lexington, Kentucky, in 1930 and has remained there most of her life. After graduating from Dunbar High School, she attended Kentucky State University in Frankfort, earning a B.A. in elementary education, and later earned a master's in administration from Eastern Kentucky University in Richmond.

After graduating, Grevious first taught at, and later became principal of Kentucky Village, a state reformatory for delinquent boys. Following the closing of the school, she taught in Fayette County Public Schools, where she remained until she retired. More than a teacher, Grevious also became active with the NAACP in the late 1940s. She also became active with the Congress on Racial Equality (CORE). As the civil rights movement heated up, Grevious rose to become the president of the Lexington chapter of the NAACP while her friend and vice president Julia Lewis became the president of CORE. The two brought the two organizations together, organizing protests, pickets and sit-ins, and successfully and peacefully achieved their objectives. This marked the first time that the NAACP and CORE had worked together, as ideological differences at the national level had previously kept the groups apart.

Over the years, Grevious has remained involved with the NAACP. Since her retirement, she has become involved in a number of organizations. She currently serves on the board of directors of The Humanitarium, an organization devoted to celebrating diversity. She is also a member of the board of the Community Reinvestment Housing Project, which provides counseling to first-time homebuyers, a member of the board and the former president of Kentucky Tech, and the secretary of her church, Pilgrim Baptist. She is also the president of the Elder Crafters, an organization of senior citizens who make crafts. As a group, they enjoy bowling, and Grevious' home is filled with trophies from the sport.

Grevious passed away on January 6, 2017 at age 86.

Accession Number

A2002.226

Sex

Female

Interview Date

12/11/2002

Last Name

Grevious

Maker Category
Organizations
Schools

Dunbar High School

Constitution Street School

Kentucky State University

First Name

Audrey

Birth City, State, Country

Lexington

HM ID

GRE05

Favorite Season

None

State

Kentucky

Favorite Vacation Destination

Anywhere

Favorite Quote

Anything I Want To Do I Can Do It. It May Take A Little Longer But I'll Do It.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Kentucky

Birth Date

9/3/1930

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Lexington

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Chicken

Death Date

1/6/2017

Short Description

Civil rights activist and high school teacher Audrey Grevious (1930 - 2017 ) was a NAACP desegregation leader in Lexington, Kentucky, who worked closely with CORE.

Employment

Kentucky Village

Fayette County School System

Favorite Color

Black

Timing Pairs
0,0:970,9:4970,73:8330,150:53822,598:60950,828:61302,833:85430,1102:92484,1450:96900,1754:109401,1914:128910,2055:205110,2813$0,0:783,69:9052,172:16774,334:17242,341:21495,364:22254,386:22806,395:23496,444:31837,567:32994,628:44538,690:47600,713:57412,911:58020,923:60300,980:63340,1070:63796,1077:64328,1085:65012,1098:80098,1250:100754,1535:112695,1781:113375,1791:115415,1840:123692,1928:134464,2042:135112,2057:136048,2077:142733,2190:148334,2289:149622,2311:151002,2349:156075,2400:156500,2407:160524,2488:174496,2677:175728,2713:176036,2718:176575,2727:181041,2822:188510,2982:193498,3075:197368,3160:227815,3465:229615,3666:230290,3772:245470,3945:246270,3967:249870,3980
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Audrey Grevious' interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Audrey Grevious lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Audrey Grevious talks about her family history

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Audrey Grevious talks about her biological father, James Washington

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Audrey Grevious describes her mother, Martha Ross

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Audrey Grevious talks about the Aspendale Housing Projects in Lexington, Kentucky

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Audrey Grevious describes her childhood neighborhood in Lexington, Kentucky

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Audrey Grevious describes the sights, sounds, and smells of her childhood

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Audrey Grevious talks about nurturing teaches who rose above racial discrimination in the segregated school system

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Audrey Grevious describes her teenaged years in Lexington, Kentucky

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Audrey Grevious talks about being taken care of by neighbors and her childhood personality

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Audrey Grevious talks about her elementary school and her high school

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Audrey Grevious describes her teachers at Dunbar High School in Lexington, Kentucky

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Audrey Grevious talks about teachers at Dunbar High School who raised money to help send students to college

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Audrey Grevious talks about teaching children in her neighborhood

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Audrey Grevious describes her education at Kentucky State University in Frankfort, Kentucky

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Audrey Grevious describes her experience at Kentucky State University

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Audrey Grevious talks about finishing her education at Kentucky State University

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Audrey Grevious describes the NAACP's restaurant service

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Audrey Grevious describes her start with the NAACP

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Audrey Grevious talks about working with Julia Lewis of the Lexington, Kentucky chapter of CORE

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Audrey Grevious talks about how she became president of the NAACP chapter in Lexington, Kentucky

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Audrey Grevious talks about organizing her first sit-in with Julia Lewis, the president of the Lexington chapter of CORE

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Audrey Grevious describes being attacked at a sit-in

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Audrey Grevious talks about the lack of participation African American religious leaders in the Civil Rights Movement in Lexington, Kentucky

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Audrey Grevious talks about being arrested for a protest

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Audrey Grevious talks about working to integrate movie theaters in Lexington, Kentucky

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Audrey Grevious explains the demise of the Lyric Theatre after the integration of theaters in Lexingotn, Kentucky

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Audrey Grevious describes the pressure to continue segregation

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Audrey Grevious talks about a store owner's attempt to get her fired

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Audrey Grevious describes fighting for integration at the Kentucky Village Reform School

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Audrey Grevious talks about her desegregation efforts in schools, lunch counters, theaters, and places of employment

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Audrey Grevious talks about leading a violence-free movement and being the target of hate crimes

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Audrey Grevious talks about the unique partnership between CORE and NAACP in Lexington, Kentucky

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Audrey Grevious describes her own realization of racial injustice

Tape: 4 Story: 10 - Audrey Grevious talks about the integration of Kentucky Village Reform School

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Audrey Grevious talks about her teaching career at Kentucky Village Reform School

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Audrey Grevious talks about her career in Fayette County Public Schools

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Audrey Grevious reflects upon her legacy

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Audrey Grevious talks about the lack of recognition for her work with Julia Lewis in Lexington, Kentucky during the Civil Rights Movement

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Audrey Grevious talks about her mother and brother's support

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Audrey Grevious talks about teaching neighborhood children about the Civil Rights Movement

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Audrey Grevious describes how she would like to be remembered

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$4

DAStory

7$10

DATitle
Audrey Grevious describes being attacked at a sit-in
Audrey Grevious talks about the integration of Kentucky Village Reform School
Transcript
And then after, after that we had another (unclear) that was right next, next door to them and we decided we were going to, to, to do that. Well the first time we got in, we got the seats because it was just kind of open and you just going down the aisle. And we took up all the seats. Well then see the customers couldn't, couldn't--and she couldn't wait on anybody, but she wasn't gonna wait on us. And she became so angry and aggravated that she took a great big bowl--jar of iced tea and turned it over on my new suit that I had just bought cause I was going someplace afterwards. I still have the--it's up in the attic now. It's a souvenir of the [Civil Rights] Movement. And, and I just--and, and I just sat there just like nothing--red--every time I think about it, I, I can still, still picture that. And so the next week when we came, they had this rope all around the lunch counter. And the, the manager was sitting at the rope and he would let his white customers come in and then close it, close it right back. And so I was kind of at the front of the line and he had this little string on it, and he was hitting it and it was hitting right across my, my leg. It was really hurting something, something bad. And, and the men--there were a few men on our line and of course they wanted to take the, the chain and wrap it around his neck. And so we had to send them outside 'cause they were really getting angry because it was hurting, you know. I'm, I'm doing this the whole time. Each time he did that, I'm, I'm feeling it.$$Like [unclear].$$Yeah. And, and so they went on--reluctantly they went on out and we, we, you know we stood there. But for--I would say for about twelve to fifteen years, I suffered with my leg right down at that, that--like right in that area. Anyway, and they couldn't find out what was wrong. I think it was all up here in my head. But we stayed, stayed there then. And then we--finally we--wasn't too long after that, that we were able to get them to, to make the change 'cause they could see that we weren't giving up. And we're being so quiet and so refined and so top notch. And that they had no complaint, you know, about it. That they--we felt like that one of the stores had hired some--we, we called them hoodlums and that--which isn't really quite fair to them, but they act like hoodlums anyway. Who were coming by and they would have a lighter, and they would cut it on and get it as close to our hair as, as they possibly could. I guess just to try to get us, but we just sat there, you know, anyway. And it wasn't too long after that that they realized we're being stupid. We might as well go ahead and when we had a meeting, they, they agreed to go ahead and, you know and do this.$$You had a meeting with the store owner?$$Uh-huh.$How did this era affect your, your later career? Did, did it affect your later career at all?$$In teaching?$$Yeah.$$No, because you know like I said, after I was arrested that time and, and the superintendent of the [Kentucky] Village [Reform School] called me at work. I told you we'd had a meeting, you know, anyway. And, and we talked about it. And, and he says, "Well I've been thinking about it, you know, for a long time but I didn't know how it was gonna go over." And there was some very prejudiced ones there on both sides, you know. And, and, and the separation was complete. I mean when I say complete, I mean complete. Even dining room, every- they didn't even eat, you know. And, and that's what I was telling him, you know, that--well I had made up my mind that I was going to eat in the dining room. We ate--they had a small--another one and it was--well it was so clean it wasn't even funny. You know you could almost eat off the floor. And, and I had made up my mind. I don't know what made me think of it over the weekend. And I had said Monday morning when I go to school, I'm not going to go in the--where the children eat. I'm going to sit down and eat in the dining room that's for the whites. And the young man from Paris [Kentucky] would catch the bus up here and I'd pick him up on the corner and carry him on to work, you know with me. And I told him, you know, that this was what I was going to do. And so he didn't say anything. He just looked and he says, "Oh, Audrey." And so when the time came, we went in and he had made up his mind that he wasn't gonna let me go by myself. And so he came and sat with me at the table by the door. I got by the door in case I had to run out. But he sat, sat there with me. And it upset some people so badly, now these are people who have been saying hello to you, how are you, you know, and just being rather friendly with you, that they actually threw their food in the trashcan and stamped out of the dining room. And some of them who did it would, would have--if anybody had told me they would have been the ones who'd have done it, I would have said no way 'cause they had been so friendly, you know. But they were the ones who got up and threw, threw it out. And so after that--that was the beginning of the, the integration of the, the whole, whole, whole place. And then after that--and then that's when I went to talk to the, to the, to the superintendent and I said, "Well that was my first step. And the next one is to integrate the, the schools." And he says, "Huh?" And I said, "Yeah." I said, "It doesn't make sense to, to waste talent like you have here and not be sharing it." I said, "They need to know what I'm teaching and my students need to know what they're teaching. And so that's gonna be the next, next step," and he says, "Well will you tell me when?" I said, "No, 'cause I don't know when." I said, "Just one day, it might be when I walk up and, and say this is the day and take my students and we'll walk over, over to the, the school and that's where we're gonna--they'll have to find a room or we'll just sit in the library, you know, during the time." And then after we talked about it and he said, "Oh don't do that, that to me." He says, "You got me in the--." I said, "Well okay. Do you have a room?" And he says, "Yes, but it's in the basement." I said, "It doesn't make any difference. Just let me have the key and I will bring my students over and we will--," and that was the way we did. And you could have heard a pin fall in that building; there was so much tension that day that it was not even funny. And these are people who normally, "Hello, how are you," you know and all that, but it was the separation that was, you know there and they wanted to, to, to keep it. And, and at the time I only taught the black students and, and the other male. He only taught. But it--then, then, then we integrated the whole, whole school.

Crain Woods

Educator and politician Crain Woods was born in Due West, South Carolina, on December 14, 1932. The youngest son of a farmer and a housewife, Woods attended Benedict College in Columbia, South Carolina, following his graduation from high school. Woods earned a B.S. in 1957, and later returned to school, attending South Carolina State University for an M.S. in education and graduating in 1970.

After earning his bachelor's degree, Woods began his teaching career in 1959 in the Clarendon County Department of Education, where he was a teacher and a coach. Three years later, Woods was hired by the Horry County Department of Education, where he served as a teacher and school administrator. Woods continued on with Horry County until his retirement. In 1994, Woods became involved in the city government of Myrtle Beach after winning a City Council seat, and served as a city councilman until 2002.

Woods remains active with the local government today, serving on the Myrtle Beach Convention Center Hotel Corporation board of directors and the All Aboard Committee, which is taking measures to have the Myrtle Beach railroad station placed in the National Registry of Historic Places. Woods sits on the board of the Myrtle Beach Housing Authority. He has also been active with the Horry County chapter of the American Red Cross for more than twenty-five years and currently serves as chairman of the organization.Additionally, Woods is a charter member and sits on the board of the Children's Museum of South Carolina. Woods and his wife, Julia, have been married since 1959.

Woods passed away on March 5, 2017 at age 84.

Accession Number

A2002.223

Sex

Male

Interview Date

12/5/2002

Last Name

Woods

Marital Status

Married

Schools

Benedict College

South Carolina State University Lab School

First Name

Crain

Birth City, State, Country

Due West

HM ID

WOO01

Favorite Season

Spring

State

South Carolina

Favorite Vacation Destination

None

Favorite Quote

You Know.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

South Carolina

Birth Date

12/14/1932

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Myrtle Beach

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Fried Chicken, Seafood

Death Date

3/5/2017

Short Description

High school teacher and city council member Crain Woods (1932 - 2017 ) served as a city legislator in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina.

Employment

Clarendon County Department of Education

Horry County Department of Education

Myrtle Beach City Council

Favorite Color

Gold, Purple

Timing Pairs
0,0:5665,92:7004,127:9785,155:15570,168:16158,174:17824,193:18412,200:23924,245:26586,281:27191,287:40255,385:56694,621:57134,627:77130,818:77426,824:80647,886:96536,988:100964,1070:110048,1177:123250,1287:125770,1335:129280,1399:158880,1742:159256,1747:166337,1830:166722,1836:167954,1855:173631,1917:173947,1922:175053,1945:175369,1950:177660,1988:179003,2010:181136,2045:187641,2123:198293,2226:198625,2231:199870,2257:200202,2262:223306,2472:226858,2530:247930,2683:248590,2690:249580,2751:255524,2785:256534,2791:259160,2819:262590,2829:263082,2836:263410,2841:269472,2932:276636,2999:280880,3024:281365,3030:294217,3164:295036,3176:295400,3181:296037,3189:296856,3200:297311,3206:297675,3211:298312,3219:300820,3230$0,0:14093,122:37570,407:63274,697:63690,702:74050,841:90130,1045:90690,1058:95970,1154:97970,1198:101490,1298:112430,1373:129320,1471:132805,1608:134760,1641:135695,1654:136035,1659:167080,1942:185650,2181
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Crain Woods' interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Crain Woods lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Crain Woods describes his family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Crain Woods describes his parents

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Crain Woods describes his hometown of Due West, South Carolina

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Crain Woods describes the sights, sounds, and smells of his childhood in Due West, South Carolina

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Crain Woods describes his childhood personality

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Crain Woods describes his childhood chores

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Crain Woods talks about attending church in Level Land, South Carolina

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Crain Woods describes his experiences in school

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Crain Woods describes his experiences attending Carver High School in Due West, South Carolina

Tape: 1 Story: 12 - Crain Woods describes enrolling at Benedict College in Columbia, South Carolina

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Crain Woods describes his experiences attending Benedict College in Columbia, South Carolina

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Crain Woods describes his employment experiences after graduating from Benedict College in Columbia, South Carolina

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Crain Woods describes pursuing his Master's degree at South Carolina State University in Orangeburg, South Carolina

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Crain Woods describes integrating the staff of an elementary school in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Crain Woods describes how he was asked to run for a seat on the Myrtle Beach City Council

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Crain Woods describes how the Myrtle Beach City Council worked to improve the economy of Myrtle Beach, South Carolina

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Crain Woods describes how the work of the Myrtle Beach City Council has benefitted the community

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Crain Woods shares his hopes and concerns for the community in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Crain Woods reflects upon his legacy and his parents' pride in his teaching career

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Crain Woods talks about his plan for the future

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Crain Woods talks about how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Crain Woods narrates his photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$2

DAStory

4$5

DATitle
Crain Woods describes integrating the staff of an elementary school in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina
Crain Woods describes how he was asked to run for a seat on the Myrtle Beach City Council
Transcript
Okay, okay. Now, tell me about your career in the Myrtle Beach system, you know, what, what things happened?$$Well, there were things that happened in the system. And after working here a few years, when they got ready to integrate the system, again, I was called on to go to the grade school, and that's where Horry County integrated there, the staff there. Superintendent, I think called the principal in one afternoon, and said who they wanted to transfer and the principal called me at home about four o'clock one evening and said, "You're to meet in the superintendent's office tomorrow morning for the purpose of being transferred." And, again, I said, you know, I could have been asked, but I wasn't asked. I was told, for the purpose of being transferred. So that kind of really disturbed me a little bit that, that I was not asked. And I think I told my wife that night, that evening, I said, you know, "I think I'll go back to New York," I said, "and go to work there and probably do some blood chemistry and blood typing," you know, this kind of thing, working in a lab. And I remember, she looked at me and she said, "Well, Woods, if you're gonna leave your family here, then I didn't marry the man I thought I did." Well, that was enough said for me to not to worry about a thing else, but go on down to the grade school the next morning or down to the superintendent's office, which I did. And then there was, one of the teachers there, Fred Bagwell [ph.] met in the office also. And he was a Caucasian, so he was being transferred over to the Carver [Elementary] School here. You know, every town had a Carver school if it was black. So we met, and we talked, and we had a great time with each other because he was open minded, and so was I. So they carried us, carried--our first stop was down to the grade school where I was introduced to the classroom there that I would be the teacher that would be coming in the next morning and that Mr. Bagwell would be leaving. And we went over to Carver School where he was introduced that he would be taking over that spot. And that's the way it was done. It was just done that simple, and that--but just, we moved along. And so, you know, naturally, some people didn't like it and some people did. So, you don't please everybody anyway. So we just had a great time there, and I stayed there and, until they decided to--that they were gonna close that school. And then they moved up to another school that was opened. And they had--was building other schools along. And from that I went into administration, assistant principal at the middle school. And we stayed there until we retired. And that was eleven years ago.$$Now, was busing the biggest issue in the schools when you were--$$Busing was a big issue because in order for Myrtle Beach, if blacks were going to attend high school, they had to go to, all the way to Conway [South Carolina] and that was not very good. So once the schools were integrated, then that was cut out and you could stay within your own area and attend school. So we had a, you know, it was a challenge, and everyone was up to the challenge. So it worked, and it's working today. So we're just pleased about that.$Okay, all right, now, how did you get involved in politics?$$Well, after I retired, I remember one of the council members which was James Futrell, he was the first black that we had on city council, and he said to me, he said, "I would like for you to maybe go on there." He said, "I'm not gone stay there too much longer." And I said, "Oh no." I didn't pay it any attention. And so three or four other people came to me and said, "You know, we want you to run for council." I said, "No." So we had, I had just retired and I told my wife, I said--our daughter was living in Augusta [Georgia] at the time. And I said, "Well, let's go down to Augusta and, for a few days and just kind of get away from everything." And when I came back, it was, they had thing on the answering machine that said, "Come up to the church, come up to the church." So I told my wife, I said, "I'm going up there." I said, "But I," I said, "I believe I know what they want." I said, "But I'm not gone run for council." I went up there, and the minister was there at the church, you know, and said, "You know you have been slated to run for, for council, whether you know it or not." He said, he said, "Now the people have spoken. Now, what do you say?" I said, yes (laughter), of course, and, you know, from that it just went right along. And that's what we did. We went on and we were successful that time, and we put eight years on council. And--$$So they basically--did they have a plebiscite is how that, how they did it to choose you as a candidate, as a (simultaneous)--?$$(Simultaneous) Well, it was, it was just some of the people just got together and they just said, this was--they wanted me to run. And I did. And, of course, my wife supported me and my family supported me to run. And many people, because, I guess I had taught people all over the city, you know, and whites and blacks, and there were so many of 'em came together to support me. And I'm thankful for that. It gave me a great opportunity to see some of the fruits of my teaching and all, 'cause a lot of the students came and said, "We want to work for you." And I said, "Great." So we had a great time.

Reverend Harry Tartt

A writer, actor, U. S. Army major and ordained minister, the Reverend Harry Charles Tartt was born on October 16, 1908, in Biloxi, Mississippi. The oldest of seven children, Tartt excelled in school where his classmates were Johnny Robinson, poet Margaret Walker and activist chemist Katie Booth. After graduation from Mobile County Training School in 1928, Tartt enrolled in New Orleans University (now Dillard University), graduating summa cum laude in 1933.

Tartt taught at 33rd Avenue High School in Gulfport, Mississippi, in 1934 and left Gulfport to pursue a master's degree in English literature at the University of Chicago. Instead, Tartt became a staff writer for Bronzeville’s Chicago Bee newspaper. Drafted into World War II in 1942, Tartt entered the Quartermaster Corps of the U.S. Army with a commission as a second lieutenant. He served as a replacement chaplain in northern Africa and in southern France, and then was stationed in Germany and Italy after the war. During his military career, Tartt earned five battle stars and the Army Commendation Medal, the nation’s highest peacetime award, attaining the rank of major.

Tartt also appeared as an actor in three German movies: The Life of Lola Montez, Alexander the Great and Maid Without Honor. His European stage credits include La Boheme, Pagliacci and Fanny. In Korea, Tartt served as editor-in-chief of seventeen different Army publications. While in the U.S. Army, Tartt attended San Jose State University and eventually earned his M.A. degree in English literature from Xavier University in New Orleans. His experience as a U.S. Army chaplain inspired Tartt to pursue the pastor’s course of study at Emory University’s Candler School of Theology. The United Methodist Church subsequently ordained him. Tartt’s inspirational essays have appeared in many publications.

After his military service, Tartt returned to Gulfport to teach in the school system. He has received numerous awards for service, including the Living Legacy Certificate of Recognition by the National Caucus and Center on Black Aged, the Charlie Green Award, the Harriet Tubman Award, the Ageless Heroes Award and the Citizen of the Year Award. Tartt remained active in the Gulfport area until his death on May 12, 2008. He was 99 years old.

Accession Number

A2002.200

Sex

Male

Interview Date

11/12/2002

Last Name

Tartt

Middle Name

Charles

Organizations
Schools

Gulfport School (Colored)

Dillard University

University of Chicago

San Jose State University

Xavier University of Louisiana

First Name

Harry

Birth City, State, Country

Biloxi

HM ID

TAR01

Favorite Season

Spring

State

Mississippi

Favorite Vacation Destination

Monterey, California

Favorite Quote

Keep A Green Branch In Your Heart And, For Sure, A Robin Will Come.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Louisiana

Birth Date

10/16/1908

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Baton Rouge

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Oatmeal

Death Date

5/13/2008

Short Description

High school teacher, chaplain, and pastor Reverend Harry Tartt (1908 - 2008 ) was a high school teacher before joining that Army as a chaplain. Tartt served in Africa, Europe, and Asia. He returned to teaching in the Gulfport, Mississippi area after retiring from the military.

Employment

33rd Avenue High School

Chicago Bee

United Methodist Church

Gulfport Public Schools

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
0,0:20794,274:39002,477:67946,962:70705,1048:154100,1755:154380,1792:162686,1888:196678,2250:206040,2349:252694,2969:275930,3229$0,0:42131,679:47200,877:113442,1792:118314,1982:165720,2609:192983,2857:231815,3393:233540,3496:289069,4065:307499,4348:310194,4366:338620,4414
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Reverend Harry Tartt's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Reverend Harry Tartt lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Reverend Harry Tartt describes his family history

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Reverend Harry Tartt describes his parents

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Reverend Harry Tartt describes his mother's personality

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Reverend Harry Tartt describes the sights, sounds, and smells of his childhood

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Reverend Harry Tartt describes the land his family lived on

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Reverend Harry Tartt describes his teachers and community

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Reverend Harry Tartt describes his childhood experience of church

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Reverend Harry Tartt describes his experience at Gulfport Colored High School

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Reverend Harry Tartt describes his childhood experiences with racism, pt, 1

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Reverend Harry Tartt describes his childhood experiences with racism, pt, 2

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Reverend Harry Tartt describes his experience at New Orleans University in Louisiana

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Reverend Harry Tartt talks about migrating to Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Reverend Harry Tartt talks about getting drafted into the United States Army in 1942

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Reverend Harry Tartt talks about his experience working for The Chicago Bee

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Reverend Harry Tartt describes his experience with the 28th Quartermaster regiment of the United States Army during World War II

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Reverend Harry Tartt talks about his career as an actor in Germany after World War II

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Reverend Harry Tartt describes his experience in the United States Army after World War II

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Reverend Harry Tartt talks about his marriage and life as an actor

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Reverend Harry Tartt talks about his involvement in the Civil Rights Movement

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Reverend Harry Tartt describes his career as a United Methodist, A.M.E., C.M.E., and Baptist minister

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Reverend Harry Tartt talks about his current career

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Reverend Harry Tartt describes his hopes and concerns for the black community

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Reverend Harry Tartt reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Reverend Harry Tartt talks about how he would like to be remembered

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$3

DAStory

1$3

DATitle
Reverend Harry Tartt talks about his marriage and life as an actor
Reverend Harry Tartt describes his career as a United Methodist, A.M.E., C.M.E., and Baptist minister
Transcript
--You were stationed at Fort Ord for about ten years, you said?$$Exactly ten years.$$And we're rolling again, I just want to let you know. So that's in California, near Monterey?$$In Monterey, 100 miles south of San Francisco.$$Okay.$$All right.$$Now, let me ask you about your wife. Where did you and your wife meet, what's her name?$$My wife's name, O-R-L-E-A-N, O-R-L-E-A-N, Orlean. I met her in eighth grade, but I didn't pay any attention to her in eighth grade, and I didn't pay any attention to her in the twelfth grade either because I had another girlfriend, but I gave plenty attention to her when I finished college. Came back and then we married in St. Louis [Missouri]. We couldn't get married fast enough in Chicago. So we went to St. Louis maybe we'd get married right away.$$Now what caused all this interest after all these years of neglect?$$Because she had made such wonderful changes. She didn't look like the little eighth grade girl that I knew. Yeah, she was a wonderful girl. And she played also in the same movies that I played in, played also in 'Fanny.'$$Okay, so she was an actress too?$$Yeah, she was that.$$Now, tell me about that. Let's explore that a little bit, because that is so unusual. How were you chosen to play these roles? Did you go audition for these roles?$$What happened is that they called militaries said they want the military man in a play. Well I'm in public relations and the newspaper business, I said "Okay I'll get--how many you want?" said "eight." I said "Okay I'll get you six more." I count myself and my wife. That's how. But they thought I was an actor because they had the--they brought the army out said, they gon have this scene here. The army's gonna be playing. And then said "Look, cut, look, beat the drum like this, cut again. Okay, Tartt, you take it." I said, "I can't beat a drum," said "but you could act." And I got on that drum and said, "Oh, that's what you want." They had the background beat the drum, I'm in the front acting, cutting up. That's how it happened.$$Okay, so you were going through the motions but (simultaneous)--$$Oh, yeah, I'm going through the motions. I mean, I'm a little excited about this thing. The real drummer couldn't do that. He's just (making noises), but I'm going like this thing is on fire. So that's the kind of thing we want.$$What else did your wife do, I mean, tell us more about her?$$Well, with the top English player, Peter Ustinov, she played with him, in the top French female actress, she was in that and she played along with him. I was masseur in "The Life of Lola Montez" and the masseur would do the massages and all these dances before they go on the thing, but she was very--and my wife has worked with the German--American (unclear) they got together and had their monthly. She was an expert bridge player. And then the bridge would sometime--the club would meet at our house and they started in the evening, six o'clock and they served breakfast at seven o'clock.$$They played bridge--$$All night long, all night long. But then she became a very--very active in all community work. Anytime there's work to be done, help to be done in the community, she was always there.$OKay. Now, how did you yourself get involved in the ministry?$$Well, as I said, you know, I grew up in the church and I just knew the church in and out. I was secretary of the church when I was quite a youngster, and during my college years I still was involved in church work and then Bishop Jones, Robert E. Jones, inspired me to come into--he was a black bishop, I said he's black, but he really was white. You couldn't tell him from any white man. He could move anywhere as white whenever he wanted to. He was at my graduation. Told me he wanted to go--me to go to Gulfside [United Methodist Assembly] and work over there and so--being associated with these ministers, like Farmer [James Leonard Farmer, Sr.], not the Farmer now [James Leonard Farmer, Jr.], but Farmer's father was one of my teachers. And that's the kind of thing that association with these people here brought me into it.$$So you got involved in the ministry here in Gulfport [Mississippi]?$$Yeah, right, yeah.$$This was after you--$$Oh, yeah, yeah, right, yeah.$$--Retired from the military?$$Oh, no--$$Okay, okay.$$--Before. When I was in military, I was ready to preach.$$Okay.$$That's why they wanted me chaplain at different places, right.$$So are you ordained in the United Methodist Church?$$I'm ordained in the United Methodist Church, the A.M.E. Church, African Methodist Episcopal Church, the C.M.E. [Christian Methodist Episcopal] Church, and the Baptist Church. I have all relations in all four of those.$$I didn't know that was possible that you would have all of those?$$Yeah. You can-so for example a Baptist minister come say I want to join this, but he already is a Baptist minister ordained, he comes in the Methodist Church so he is ordained there.$$Well, is there a conflict of interest in that?$$No. Because a difference, you don't have--their Protestants, they're all Protestants. The only difference were to have--you move to a Catholic then you--that's not possible. You'd have to be completely converted and changed over. But the Protestants, sometimes it's just a matter of management, district, administration. There's no difference between the C.M.E., A.M.E. and the United Methodist in their theology, nothing separate. And the Baptist, very little, but the average Baptist doesn't know why he's Baptist or Methodist doesn't know why he's Baptist, or the Methodist doesn't know why he Methodist.$$Now people often get confused about what the difference is between the different Methodist branches. What is the difference between the United Methodist, the African Methodist Episcopal and the Christian Methodist Episcopal, which is formerly the Colored Methodist Episcopal?$$Right. The only difference is that in administration, the United Methodist is a part of the total Methodist Church, the C.M.E., which was--really came out of right after slavery that the Methodist asked a group of people would they form their own church, invited them out.$$Invited them out of the church?$$Out of the church. Richard Allen protested and say "Well I wanted to get out because of discrimination." That's the A.M.E. Church and so--$$So--$$--But a C.M.E. invited to get out.$$--So the main body is--$$Is the United Methodist, right.$$--Methodist.$$And out of that--$$And the C.M.E. is the group that--$$That protested--$$--Wanted out?$$--Yeah, wanted out.$$And the C.M.E. is the group that got put out?$$Invited out.$$--Yeah, invited out. Okay. Well, I've never heard it put quite like that. That's probably a good description of it. So, did you pastor at church at all?$$Oh, yes, I pastored the--several churches in Gulfport area, in Bay St. Louis, and other areas. Each you had a Bishop appoint you at different places for you to go.$$Did you pastor mostly as a United Methodist pastor?$$Well, I pastored a Baptist Church for six years. (unclear) As as Methodist minister you had to--course I don't have a license for a Baptist. They called me to preach there then finally ended up at United Methodist and retired, a mandatory retirement, seventy years old in the Methodist Church. So I'm retired United Methodist Minister.$$So you've been retired as a minister for over twenty years, right?$$No, you had to be seventy to be mandatory retirement.$$Okay.$$Yeah, right.$$And you're 90--$$I'm 94.$$Ninety-four. So that was like 24 years ago?$$Yeah, that's right, that's right. Yeah, that's right.

Roy Chappell

Decorated World War II Air Force veteran and Tuskegee Airman Roy M. Chappell was among a group of African American aviators in the Tuskegee Airmen division that led the way to integrating the armed forces. Born in Williamsburg, Kentucky to Lionel and Flora Chappell, Roy Chappell grew up in Monroe, Michigan, where he was in the top 10 percent of his high school graduating class. In 1940, he left Monroe to attend Kentucky State University, majoring in chemistry. In 1942, during his third year of studies, he was drafted into the armed forces.

In 1944, Chappell underwent navigator training in Hondo, Texas and bombardier training at Randolph Field, Texas. Upon completion, he served as a B-25 bombardier/navigator with the 477th Bombardment Group. In 1945, Chappell was one of the 101 black officers who were arrested for trying to integrate a segregated officers club in what became known as the Freeman Field Mutiny. That same year, Chappell married his wife, Lucy, with whom he had two daughters, Camille and Kathy.

After the war, Chappell completed his education, receiving his B.S. degree in psychology. He went on to become an educator, working as a teacher and guidance counselor in Chicago, Illinois for thirty years, retiring in 1985.

After retiring, Chappell served as the Chicago "DODO" Chapter Tuskegee Airmen President and as the Chairman of the Friends of Meigs Field Board of Directors. On July 25, 2001, Chappell was awarded the Phillips 66 Aviation Leadership Award, recognized as one of the most prestigious civilian aviation awards. Chappell coordinated the Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA) Young Eagles Program and received a Humanitarian Award from the EAA for his efforts. He was also involved with the Chicago Youth in Aviation Project and the Black Star Project of Chicago.

Chappell passed away on September 23, 2002 at age 81.

Accession Number

A2002.073

Sex

Male

Interview Date

5/14/2002

Last Name

Chappell

Middle Name

M.

Organizations
Schools

Kentucky State University

Search Occupation Category
First Name

Roy

Birth City, State, Country

Williamsburg

HM ID

CHA01

Favorite Season

Summer

State

Kentucky

Favorite Vacation Destination

Mexico

Favorite Quote

I Believe I Can Fly.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Illinois

Birth Date

9/16/1921

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Chicago

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Chicken (Roasted), Barbeque, Macaroni, Cheese

Death Date

9/23/2002

Short Description

High school teacher and tuskegee airman Roy Chappell (1921 - 2002 ) was the president of the Dodo Chapter of the Tuskegee Airmen. In addition to his work as a teacher, Chappell was also a youth volunteer.

Employment

United States Army Air Corps

Favorite Color

Brown

Timing Pairs
0,0:4224,104:20784,357:21152,362:38902,617:48262,817:58766,963:59702,1014:60404,1024:69200,1125:73840,1256:93980,1456:97020,1524:104667,1591:107736,1660:115318,1741:120856,1862:123898,1922:138252,2107:144684,2249:158791,2470:159501,2491:163122,2559:167940,2639:182742,2987:191908,3043:197364,3157:208666,3346:211130,3404:226213,3644:232009,3786:232354,3792:244554,4042:248294,4159:250674,4229:255075,4257:259580,4326$0,0:7754,148:13086,254:16354,316:24415,401:42484,671:44668,758:46540,833:61024,1029:63394,1109:70680,1149:74692,1240:84525,1380:99225,1600:107425,1675:107767,1682:117900,1813:124690,1958:128120,2036:133605,2072:139552,2150:141580,2186:146260,2287:146728,2295:154555,2407:159355,2535:163780,2658:174582,2770:175429,2896:196829,3299:209807,3466:211795,3509:212221,3644:245865,3997:255667,4104:258839,4363:259876,4415:260303,4423:262740,4454
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Roy Chappell's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Roy Chappell lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Roy Chappell lists his parents and siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Roy Chappell describes his elementary school in Williamsburg, Kentucky

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Roy Chappell talks about his parents' backgrounds

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Roy Chappell describes the sights, sounds and smells of his childhood

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Roy Chappell recalls memories of his parents

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Roy Chappell describes participating in sports at Monroe High School in Monroe, Michigan

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Roy Chappell recalls his social life at Monroe High School in Monroe, Michigan

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Roy Chappell talks about attending Kentucky State University in Frankfort, Kentucky

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Roy Chappell recalls the start of World War II

Tape: 1 Story: 12 - Roy Chappell remembers facing racial discrimination in the 1940s

Tape: 1 Story: 13 - Roy Chappell describes his training for the U.S. Army Air Corps

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Roy Chappell describes the movement to improve opportunities for black servicemen in the 1930s and 1940s

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Roy Chappell describes cadet training at Tuskegee, Alabama

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Roy Chappell recalls being lost while learning how to fly a plane

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Roy Chappell tells the story of Chief Anderson's flight with Eleanor Roosevelt

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Roy Chappell describes two of his fellow Tuskegee airmen

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Roy Chappell talks about the casualties during training at Tuskegee, Alabama

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Roy Chappell talks about continuing his flight training in Hondo, Texas

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Roy Chappell describes training to be a navigator

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Roy Chappell talks about the treatment of black officers during training

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Roy Chappell describes his family's reaction to his military success

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Roy Chappell talks about the respect his community showed when he returned home from military service as a Tuskegee Airmen

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Roy Chappell reflects upon race and self-image

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Roy Chappell describes finishing bombardiering school

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Roy Chappell describes the protests of the segregated Officers Club at Freeman Field in Indiana

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Roy Chappell talks about receiving a reprimand for protesting the segregated Officers Club at Freeman Field in Indiana

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Roy Chappell describes how the Tuskegee Airmen led to the integration of the U.S. Airforce

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Roy Chappell talks about Commander Benjamin O. Davis

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Roy Chappell talks about outside pressure to allow the Tuskegee Airmen to go into combat

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Roy Chappell describes the planes used by bombers during World War II

Tape: 3 Story: 10 - Roy Chappell talks about the heroism of black units in WWII and how it was unrecognized

Tape: 3 Story: 11 - Roy Chappell recalls discrimination in the commercial airline industry following WWII

Tape: 3 Story: 12 - Roy Chappell talks about being discharged and life after his service in the U.S. Air Force

Tape: 3 Story: 13 - Roy Chappell describes teaching at Carnegie Elementary School in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Roy Chappell talks about how the Tuskegee Airmen eventually gained recognition

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Roy Chappell talks about determining who is classified as Tuskegee Airmen

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Roy Chappell remembers Tuskegee Airman, Mayor Coleman Young

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Roy Chappell describes his involvement in youth outreach programs, pt.1

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Roy Chappell describes his involvement in youth outreach programs, pt.2

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Roy Chappell talks about women in aviation

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Roy Chappell describes the sights, sounds, and smells of being a Tuskegee Airmen

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Roy Chappell talks about his children's involvement as Heritage Members

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Roy Chappell talks about the costly nature of training young black people as pilots

Tape: 4 Story: 10 - Roy Chappell talks about his church involvement and hobbies

Tape: 4 Story: 11 - Roy Chappell talks about lasting friendships from his military career

Tape: 4 Story: 12 - Roy Chappell reflects upon the legacy of the Tuskegee Airmen

Tape: 4 Story: 13 - Roy Chappell talks about how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 4 Story: 14 - Roy Chappell talks about his family

Tape: 4 Story: 15 - Roy Chappell advises young people to join the U.S. Air Force

Tape: 4 Story: 16 - Roy Chappell comments on The HistoryMakers organization

Tape: 4 Story: 17 - Roy Chappell talks about his leadership

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Roy Chappell narrates his photographs

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Roy Chappell narrates his photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$3

DAStory

2$4

DATitle
Roy Chappell describes cadet training at Tuskegee, Alabama
Roy Chappell describes the protests of the segregated Officers Club at Freeman Field in Indiana
Transcript
Now, this takes us to, I guess, the next step is Tuskegee [Alabama] itself.$$Right. We got shipped out from Biloxi [Mississippi], and they sent us to Tuskegee [Alabama] to start our cadet training. And the first thing that they did where we were shipped, and they put us in a unit--and we had to go to, like, a day school for about eight or ten weeks, to take some more math and all the basic kind of subjects of that kind. And one of the teachers I remember was Wilkins, I don't know if you're familiar with him or not. But I think Wilkins got his Ph.D. from the University of Chicago when he was about 16 or 17 years old. He was one of the instructors. He instructed us in math. One of the fascinating things about him is that he could be writing--he would write with each hand on the board and be working a different kind of arithmetic problem. You know, and he wasn't but about 18 or 19 years old then. But it was the kind of thing that they had for that. And we went through that. And we stayed in something called the (Emerys?). It's at Tuskegee. Then they moved us over to the base, and we went through a little basic training there. Then they moved us into the--really the flight training program. And the flight--the pilot training program is divided into three parts; a basic, a primary--and the primary, basic, and advanced. And each phase runs about two--two and a half months of training. So we went over and we went into the primary part of the training. And the primary part of training was leased out to the Tuskegee University, and we flew out of what was called Moton Field (ph), which was a ways from Tuskegee. It was all close together. And we flew in a Stearman, where the plane is bi--two wings and things, and that's when I first had a chance to--I know nothing about airplanes. I had no idea. I didn't know anything about them. I had no idea I wanted to fly or anything like that. But this was getting me around what I wanted to get around in the military, so I did. And my instructor, we started flying and we had a number of hours (in about?) it's an open cockpit plane. And after you get a few hours in, you would get the idea that, you know, you're young and you got all this energy and halfway crazy, too. So I decided this particular day, like everybody else, to loosen up my seatbelt and making it very loose, you know, so I'd be real comfortable, I could move around in the seat and everything back there. And they always tried to tell us keep that belt tight. So he flipped this plane over on its back, and here I come sliding up out of this seat. And you talk about somebody having a conniption fit. I said, "Oh, Lord, what am I going to do?" 'Cause I never wanted to jump without a parachute. And he looked--turned around 'cause he's in the front seat. He turned around and looked at me and grinned and said, "Ha-ha-ha-ha." And I said, "Ha-ha-ha," something my mother told me not to say anymore in life, and he, and I said "Turn this thing back over." And he did. But the message was given to me. I learned it, and that was the end of that. No more of that kind of stuff. But it was interesting. And then one day we went up, we came back down, and we landed and we taxied up to where we, you now, go in and they used to pull in off and everything. He said, "Well, we'll stop here for a minute." He stop it. He jumped out. He said, "Okay. It's yours." And so that means I had to go up in solo. So that was the first time that I went up and soloed an airplane and thing. Then we went on through the primary phase of the training and everything, and I got through that in good shape. And, you learn how to do a lot of things. It's amazing what you can do with an airplane and amazing when I look now and think that you can take an airplane and flip it over on its back, you can take it and make it do a loop, and you can do what they call a snap roll, and then snap roll it over quickly and that kind of thing. And you do stalls, 'cause they teach you how in case the plane stumble, what you're supposed to do? And that--and, you know, all those kind of things. And I had no idea about I could ever learn how to do all these things. And it was interesting. And we helped each other, and we got to a real wonderful shape. So I enjoyed that.$So we came in and in a couple of days, they shipped us up to Godman Field, too--not to Godman Field--the Freeman Field. And when we got there, you know, we found out about these two officers clubs, and they had taken the enlisted men's club and made it into an officers club. And the commanding officer was saying that, one club was for instructor personnel, and one was for trainee personnel. And that translated, black and white, because we had some guys there--we had a chaplain there, we had doctors there, and some other--about five--about eight or nine people--about six or seven of them, weren't really in the training program. And we even had some guys there that were back from a tour of duty of the three-thirty-second (3-32nd). And they came back. And so guys started going to the club. And they get there, the man that was in charge of the officers club would tell them that they couldn't come in--they couldn't come in there. The guy was going, he said--and he told them you have to leave or he'll place you under arrest in quarters. So everybody had to go back (unclear) and then go in your quarters and things. And they had hundreds of guys went in there that way. And so the commanding officer there was deciding that this wasn't working. And one of the things that was going on we found out later from the Freedom of Information Act is that he was in contact with the people over him in Washington, D.C., and they were talking about what was going on, what was happening. And so we decided to put out--now, in the military, there was an article of one of the rules said that "any officers club is open to all officers on that base." And he was saying that they could get around this by saying this thing was for officers and trainees. And they told him to write up this memorandum that certain facilities on the base were for instructors and for officers. So and then they did this. He wrote up his personnel. He had a big meeting and read it to everybody and told them, you know, that this thing was coming up. And then he heard again that guys were going to start coming back to the thing. And then he had them come in and had everybody said they would either sign this thing and they understood it and sign it, and read it. Once you do that, you have to comply with it. And so some of us said that we didn't want to do it. We didn't want to sign it. So then they decided to--everybody that hadn't signed it, they had something almost like a little court-martial. Our commanding officer was there, the man who was going to do the questioning was there, and three or four of the officers were there, and the person that was taking the testimony. And they come in, they ask you first thing, "Have you seen the thing? Have you read it?" "Yes." "Will you sign it?" "No." "Well, you could cross out what you don't like and sign it." "No." Then they would read us the Articles of War that has to do with, you know, if you don't obey your commanding officer, and you can get shot and all these other kind of things that can happen. So they finally come down to, say, "Well, scratch out what you don't want and sign it." We says, "No. I won't do that." And so then, finally, they said, "Well, let me read the Articles of War to you again." They read that to us again. And, "A commanding officer gives you a direct order to sign it," to Harry. He says, "I'm not going to sign it." He says, "I'm not going to sign it today. I refuse to sign." So then he was placed back under arrest in quarters. And so that there's a conversation was still going on in the thing. So they decided to ship us back to Godman Field. So we got shipped back; 101 of us got shipped back to Godman Field. The bags were there, they had puts lights up all around the barracks and things, and a fence around barracks and things, and we were all there. And the strange thing about it was, German POWs were able to walk through the barracks, and there was a gas station across the street; they were doing that, and things were going on. See. And these are the kind of things that were going on. And they (simultaneous) (unclear)--$$There were German POWs were at Godman Field.$$At Godman Field. You know (simultaneous) (unclear)--$$They had liberties (simultaneous)--$$--liberties. Right. You know, after they come there so long, they get these kind of liberties. They work in the filling station and that kind of thing.