The Nation’s Largest African American Video Oral History Collection Mobile search icon Mobile close search icon

Search Results

Advanced Biography Search
Mobile navigation icon Close mobile navigation icon

Dr. Lloyd C. Elam

Founder of Meharry Medical College’s Psychiatry Department and retired college president Dr. Lloyd C. Elam was born on October 27, 1928 in Little Rock, Arkansas. His parents, Ruth Davis Elam and Harry Penoy Elam met in church in Little Rock. Elam attended Stephens School and graduated from Paul Laurence Dunbar High School in 1944 at age fifteen. He went to junior college in Little Rock before moving to Harvey, Illinois. There, Elam worked for the Maremont Automobile Plant and commuted to Chicago to attend classes at Roosevelt University where he graduated with his B.S. degree in zoology in 1950. After a stint in the United States Army, Elam earned his M.D. degree from the University of Washington School of Medicine in 1957. From 1957 to 1958, Elam completed an internship at the University of Illinois Hospital in Chicago, and from 1958 to 1961, he served as a resident in psychiatry at the University of Chicago Hospital.

Elam joined Chicago’s Billings Hospital as staff psychiatrist and instructor of psychiatry in 1961. From 1961 to 1963, he served as assistant professor and chairman of the Psychiatry Department of Meharry Medical College in Nashville, Tennessee. Becoming a full professor in 1963, Elam was appointed interim dean of the college in 1966. In 1968, he was selected president of Meharry Medical College and supervised the school’s growth in that capacity until 1981. From 1981 to 1982, Elam was college chancellor. He served as Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry from 1982 to 1995 when he retired to serve as a volunteer faculty member. Elam served as a fellow at the Center for Advanced Study in Behavioral Sciences at Stanford, California in 1982. He was made Professor Emeritus of the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences in 1996 and Chairman Emeritus in 1997. Elam is a member of the Tennessee Psychiatric Association, Tennessee Medical Association, American Medical Association, National Medical Association, American Psychiatric Association, American College of Psychiatrists, Black Psychiatrists of America, R.F. Boyd Medical Society and the American College of Forensic Examiners.

In 1973, Elam was presented an honorary Doctor of Laws from Harvard University. His other awards include honorary degrees from Meharry Medical College and St. Lawrence University; the 1988 National Board of Medical Examiners Distinguished Service Award; induction into the Alpha Omega Alpha Honor Society; the 1972 Nashville Club Man of the Year Award; the 1976 Human Relations Award from the National Conference of Christians and Jews and the 1988 Eleanor Roosevelt Key, Roosevelt University’s highest alumni award. Meharry Medical College established the Lloyd C. Elam Mental Health Center in his honor and that building now bares his name.

Elam and his wife, Clara Elam, R.N., have two daughters: Dr. Gloria Elam-Norris of Chicago and Dr. Laurie Elam-Evans of Atlanta. Elam passed away on October 4, 2008.

Elam was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on March 14, 2007.

Accession Number

A2007.089

Sex

Male

Interview Date

3/14/2007

Last Name

Elam

Middle Name

Charles

Schools

Paul Laurence Dunbar High School

University of Washington

Stephens Elementary School

Roosevelt University

University of Chicago

First Name

Lloyd

Birth City, State, Country

Little Rock

HM ID

ELA02

Favorite Season

Summer

State

Arkansas

Favorite Vacation Destination

Hawaii

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Tennessee

Interview Description
Birth Date

10/27/1928

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Nashville

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Peas (Black-Eyed)

Death Date

10/4/2008

Short Description

College president, psychiatrist, and psychiatry professor Dr. Lloyd C. Elam (1928 - 2008 ) founded Meharry Medical College’s Psychiatry Department, and served as the college's president until 1981.

Employment

Meharry Medical College

Dupont Corporation

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
0,0:791,12:5650,140:6102,145:30696,395:31860,409:34382,445:50022,646:61102,735:62510,753:74602,924:77122,960:78550,985:108414,1291:110898,1326:111634,1338:173850,2051$0,0:418,5:786,10:1522,20:2166,25:6950,98:8330,115:9250,129:12194,165:12654,171:13298,179:18562,205:25321,275:26926,295:36312,362:38063,367:38973,378:40429,394:41248,406:42249,418:46981,475:51258,511:65404,685:68060,726:69637,750:78069,816:78818,824:86000,847:86658,855:90418,908:91546,921:92016,927:96460,1013:102080,1052:103250,1066:103700,1072:104060,1077:104780,1086:121683,1244:128958,1339:129734,1348:130122,1353:130510,1358:131577,1372:143411,1472:156529,1610:214180,2006:251253,2276:254050,2284
DAStories

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598971">Tape: 1 Slating of Dr. Lloyd C. Elam's interview</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598972">Tape: 1 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam lists his favorites</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598973">Tape: 1 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam describes her mother's family background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598974">Tape: 1 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam describes his mother's community in Arkadelphia, Arkansas</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598975">Tape: 1 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam describes his father's family background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598976">Tape: 1 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam describes his father's education and occupation</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598977">Tape: 1 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam describes how his parents met</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598978">Tape: 1 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam describes his likeness to his parents</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598979">Tape: 1 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam describes his father's lumber business</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598980">Tape: 1 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam talks about race relations in Little Rock, Arkansas</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598981">Tape: 1 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam describes his paternal grandfather's career as a stagecoach racer</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598982">Tape: 1 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam describes his earliest childhood memories</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598983">Tape: 1 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam describes his household</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598984">Tape: 1 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam recalls his refusal to eat meat</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598985">Tape: 2 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam describes his childhood diet</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598986">Tape: 2 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam recalls his transportation to school</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598987">Tape: 2 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam remembers his family's road trips to Arkadelphia, Arkansas</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598988">Tape: 2 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam recalls his experiences as a migrant farmworker</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598989">Tape: 2 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam recalls attending Stephens Elementary School in Little Rock, Arkansas</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598990">Tape: 2 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam describes his family's daily prayers</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598991">Tape: 2 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam recalls selling newspapers</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598992">Tape: 2 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam remembers his teacher, Leroy Christopher</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598993">Tape: 2 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam remembers an influential teacher</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598994">Tape: 2 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam recalls his community's emphasis on education</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598995">Tape: 2 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam recalls his early interest in medicine and psychology</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598996">Tape: 2 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam remembers his early understanding of mental health</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598997">Tape: 2 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam recalls the popular ideas about mental illness during his youth</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598998">Tape: 3 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam recalls the beliefs about mental illness in rural Arkansas</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/598999">Tape: 3 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam recalls his decision to attend Roosevelt College in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599000">Tape: 3 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam remembers his high school graduation</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599001">Tape: 3 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam describes his experiences at Roosevelt College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599002">Tape: 3 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam remembers serving in the U.S. Army's Medical Service Corps</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599003">Tape: 3 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam recalls the University of Washington School of Medicine in Seattle, Washington</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599004">Tape: 3 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam remembers meeting his wife</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599005">Tape: 3 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam recalls race relations at the University of Washington School of Medicine</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599006">Tape: 3 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam describes the findings of his medical study of stress</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599007">Tape: 3 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam recalls the psychiatry program at the University of Chicago</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599008">Tape: 4 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam recalls his influential professors</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599009">Tape: 4 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam talks about the treatments for mental illness</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599010">Tape: 4 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam describes the perceptions of psychiatry in the African American community</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599011">Tape: 4 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam recalls founding the Department of Psychiatry at Meharry Medical College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599012">Tape: 4 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam describes the changes in the cost of psychiatric care</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599013">Tape: 4 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam recalls establishing a day hospital in Nashville, Tennessee</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599014">Tape: 4 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam recalls his presidency of Meharry Medical College in Nashville, Tennessee</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599015">Tape: 4 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam describes his challenges as the president of Meharry Medical College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599016">Tape: 4 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam describes Meharry Medical College's contributions to Nashville, Tennessee</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599017">Tape: 4 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam talks about his community health concerns</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599018">Tape: 4 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam describes the increase in African Americans seeking psychiatric care</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599019">Tape: 4 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam talks about his retirement</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599020">Tape: 5 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam talks about the underrepresentation of African Americans in the medical field</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599021">Tape: 5 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam describes his hopes and concerns for the African American community</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599022">Tape: 5 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam reflects upon the psychological effects of the Civil Rights Movement</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599023">Tape: 5 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam reflects upon his life</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599024">Tape: 5 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam reflects upon his legacy</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599025">Tape: 5 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam talks about his involvement at the First Baptist Church in Nashville, Tenneesee</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599026">Tape: 5 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam describes his civic activities</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599027">Tape: 5 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam describes how he would like to be remembered</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/599028">Tape: 5 Dr. Lloyd C. Elam narrates his photographs</a>

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$4

DAStory

11$7

DATitle
Dr. Lloyd C. Elam recalls his early interest in medicine and psychology
Dr. Lloyd C. Elam recalls his presidency of Meharry Medical College in Nashville, Tennessee
Transcript
Now how was high school [Paul Laurence Dunbar High School; Dunbar Magnet Middle School, Little Rock, Arkansas]? Were you active in clubs in high school or student government or sports or anything like that?$$I went to all the football games but most of the people in my--most of the guys in my class were active and I was not. I enjoyed studying (laughter). As a matter of fact, the way I got interested in medicine I was thirteen and kind of browsing in the library one day and saw a little book and the title of it was 'Physique and Personality' [ph.] and I said, oh, that sounds interesting. I read it, it was fascinating and it went on to show how whatever kind of physique you has, you have determines what kinds of adjustment possibilities are open to you. If you're a little athletic boy and somebody does something on the playground, you might hit him or push him or something and he stops doing it. And so you figure that works and so you become that kind of an outgoing person. If you are a little thin, scrawny guy and you try that, the guy will hit you back and say that, that won't work. So you decide to go to the library, (laughter) read books and so that determines your--another little boy on the playground tries pushing, gets hit, tries studying, reading, he's not smart so that doesn't work. So he becomes the jokester and so the little fat boy becomes a jokester. And so it was fascinating the way he wrote the book but it has some motivational kind of lesson. And his students really tried to, to do a scientific study of all of this but they went too far. But as you know, your physical does affect your personality. But that's how I got interested in psychology and then found out, if you're gonna do research in psychology, you should go on and be a psychiatrist so you can do all kinds of research. And that's how I got interested in that.$$Okay, so at age thirteen you were aware of what a psychologist was and--$$Yeah (simultaneous).$$--(simultaneous) in terms of that--$$Yeah.$$--because of that study?$$Yeah.$Now, just about the time that I got all of that going the--there was progress in civil rights and desegregation of schools. And people had the idea that all of the black schools were gonna merge into the others and you wouldn't need them so we had that kind of crisis. And that's when I moved into administration and bunch of us met every Saturday night for a year struggling with what, what would be an appropriate approach to this problem. It was a problem for us.$$The funding began to dry up or--for the black institutions?$$No, probably, I don't know but you know, black institutions have always had funding problems so I don't know if it was drying up or not. I was--this is before I was in administration. But the question is, why do you need two whatever kinds of institutions, you know, and so what we decided after that year of, of talking about the problem is that, sure enough, you did need historically black institutions [HBCUs]. If, if Meharry [Meharry Medical College, Nashville, Tennessee] stopped it's existence, then number of black persons going into medicine would drastically decrease and so that we did, indeed, need to continue this institution. And that's when I went into administration and decided that, if we were going to, we needed to be a niche institution. And we should address those illnesses and problems that were unique to the population that we served. And, in order to do this, we had to do a number of things. One, was to build a campus and that's what a good number of years of my administration was involved. But the other was to establish a Ph.D. program, research programs, and so on. And we did that. And it's--and they are going very well in addition to medicine and dentistry.$$How long did it take to establish those?$$I, let's see, I became president in '68 [1968] so we started building campus in '69 [1969] and we started the research in, in graduate studies in about '75 [1975] somewhere in there, middle '70s [1970s]. And then it became a school of graduate studies and research in about '76 [1976]. So--excuse me, let me see, '76 [1976], yep, that's right in '76 [1976]. And now we will graduate a significant percentage of black Ph.D.'s. in the biomedical sciences and of course we still have the medical program.

Gloria Scott

Gloria Dean Randle Scott was the eleventh president of Bennett College located in Greensboro, North Carolina. She was the second female chief administrator at Bennett College. Scott was born on April 14, 1938 in Houston, Texas to Juanita and Freeman Randle. She attended Blackshear Elementary School and Jack Yates Secondary School where she graduated from in 1955. A scholarship fund afforded Scott the opportunity to attend Indiana University. She received her B.A. degree and M.A. degree in zoology in 1959 and 1960, respectively, and her Ph.D. in higher education in 1965.

In 1961, Scott’s career began as a research associate in genetics and embryology at Indiana University Institution for Psychiatric Research. During this time, she worked as a biology instructor at Marion College until 1965, making her the first African American instructor at a predominately white college in Indianapolis, Indiana at the time. Scott held the positions as Dean of Students and Deputy Director of Upward Bound at Knoxville College in 1965 and as the Special Assistant to the President and Educational Research Planning Director at North Carolina A&T University in 1967. During her ten year tenure, Scott continued to make history by becoming the first African American National President of the Girl Scouts in 1975. She then served as the Institutional Research Planning Director at Texas Southern University for a year before becoming Vice President at Clark College in Atlanta in 1977.

After ten years at Clark College, Scott became the President of Bennett College in 1987, thus fulfilling her life’s mission to educate African American women.

Scott is the recipient of three honorary doctorate degrees. She has been featured in several publications such as Who’s Who Among American Women, Famous Texas Women and Essence magazine.

Scott is married to Dr. Will B. Scott, a professor of sociology.

Scott was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on February 8, 2007.

Accession Number

A2007.055

Sex

Female

Interview Date

2/8/2007

Last Name

Scott

Maker Category
Middle Name

Dean Randle

Occupation
Schools

Blackshear Elementary School

Jack Yates High School

Indiana University

Speakers Bureau

Yes

Speakers Bureau Availability

Any

First Name

Gloria

Birth City, State, Country

Houston

HM ID

SCO05

Speakers Bureau Preferred Audience

Any. Especially teens.

Speakers Bureau Honorarium

Yes - 0 - $500

Favorite Season

Spring

Speaker Bureau Notes

Preferred Audience: Any. Especially teens.
Special Interest: Women's groups, education, girl scouts, defense groups, religious groups, and social action groups,.

State

Texas

Favorite Vacation Destination

Anywhere Near Water

Favorite Quote

We Must Do And Not Just Be.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Texas

Interview Description
Birth Date

4/14/1938

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Corpus Christi

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Fish, Peach Cobbler

Short Description

College president Gloria Scott (1938 - ) was the president of Benedict College and was the first African American national president of the Girl Scouts of America.

Employment

Indiana University Institute for Psychiatric Research

Marian College

Knoxville College

North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University

Texas Southern University

Clark College

Bennett College

Girl Scouts USA

Favorite Color

Red

Timing Pairs
0,0:8170,189:13480,249:17330,301:23882,465:25520,492:25975,498:29888,566:30889,579:35680,590:37305,643:38605,751:40490,808:47336,923:48467,943:50033,966:50555,979:55688,1072:56906,1089:59255,1128:65519,1303:75382,1404:76062,1422:76946,1450:77422,1459:78034,1469:85310,1631:86058,1645:86466,1652:91972,1720:94988,1772:96572,1808:96968,1828:104888,2055:110552,2101:110978,2108:111404,2115:116090,2204:119439,2239:120069,2252:120384,2258:124113,2303:124596,2312:125148,2325:128667,2413:129357,2430:130116,2444:140447,2579:148888,2664:149785,2700:159426,2824:159894,2831:160986,2852:177415,3142:177699,3148:180823,3219:189064,3373:189533,3382:191208,3431:193017,3475:200620,3557:200960,3563:204580,3615:209339,3651:209960,3662:211823,3710:218620,3802:228820,4074:235306,4105:243424,4235:245854,4327:271252,4732:273050,4749$0,0:288,8:1632,28:20370,322:20745,328:22395,366:27195,547:27945,560:28245,565:28545,570:37395,778:37845,785:38145,790:45384,851:45986,860:50286,956:53382,1013:60620,1068:63630,1138:66270,1144:68241,1184:69628,1210:77147,1355:77585,1362:79045,1398:83372,1421:83930,1431:84612,1445:85046,1453:86038,1474:91855,1594:96280,1707:97255,1721:99130,1758:99730,1771:101680,1813:101980,1829:106130,1874:106550,1880:107222,1890:116782,2152:121264,2227:128822,2338:130901,2374:132826,2411:134982,2457:137720,2479
DAStories

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467972">Tape: 1 Slating of Gloria Scott's interview</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467973">Tape: 1 Gloria Scott lists her favorites</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467974">Tape: 1 Gloria Scott describes her maternal grandparents, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467975">Tape: 1 Gloria Scott describes her maternal grandparents, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467976">Tape: 1 Gloria Scott describes her mother's family background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467977">Tape: 1 Gloria Scott describes her father's family background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467978">Tape: 1 Gloria Scott talks about her older siblings</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467979">Tape: 1 Gloria Scott talks about her brother</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467980">Tape: 1 Gloria Scott describes her younger sister</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467981">Tape: 1 Gloria Scott describes her youngest sister, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467982">Tape: 2 Gloria Scott describes her youngest sister, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467983">Tape: 2 Gloria Scott recalls attending kindergarten at the Fourth Missionary Baptist Church in Houston, Texas</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467984">Tape: 2 Gloria Scott remembers enrolling at Blackshear Elementary School in Houston, Texas</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467985">Tape: 2 Gloria Scott talks about her father's career</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467986">Tape: 2 Gloria Scott describes her father's interests</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467987">Tape: 2 Gloria Scott describes her neighborhood in Houston, Texas</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467988">Tape: 2 Gloria Scott describes the sights, sounds and smells of her childhood</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467989">Tape: 2 Gloria Scott remembers the Greater Rose Hill Missionary Baptist Church in Houston, Texas</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467990">Tape: 3 Gloria Scott remembers her baptism</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467991">Tape: 3 Gloria Scott recalls her experiences of color discrimination</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467992">Tape: 3 Gloria Scott remembers Blackshear Elementary School in Houston, Texas, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467993">Tape: 3 Gloria Scott remembers Blackshear Elementary School in Houston, Texas, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467994">Tape: 3 Gloria Scott describes her early work experiences</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467995">Tape: 3 Gloria Scott remembers her paper route</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467996">Tape: 3 Gloria Scott remembers her experiences as a Girl Scout</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467997">Tape: 3 Gloria Scott describes her aspiration to become a doctor</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467998">Tape: 3 Gloria Scott describes Jack Yates Senior High School in Houston, Texas</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/467999">Tape: 3 Gloria Scott remembers attending the prom at Jack Yates Senior High School</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468000">Tape: 4 Gloria Scott remembers Bernie Harper</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468001">Tape: 4 Gloria Scott recalls her decision to attend Indiana University in Bloomington, Indiana</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468002">Tape: 4 Gloria Scott remembers William S. Holland</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468003">Tape: 4 Gloria Scott recalls her arrival at Indiana University</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468004">Tape: 4 Gloria Scott describes her studies at Indiana University</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468005">Tape: 4 Gloria Scott recalls meeting her husband</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468006">Tape: 4 Gloria Scott describes her husband</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468007">Tape: 4 Gloria Scott remembers the delay of her marriage license</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468008">Tape: 5 Gloria Scott recalls her early career in Indianapolis, Indiana</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468009">Tape: 5 Gloria Scott recalls being hired as a dean at Knoxville College in Knoxville, Tennessee</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468010">Tape: 5 Gloria Scott recalls her civil rights activism with Delta Sigma Theta Sorority</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468011">Tape: 5 Gloria Scott describes Stokely Carmichael's visit to Knoxville College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468012">Tape: 5 Gloria Scott recalls the Civil Rights Movement in Greensboro, North Carolina</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468013">Tape: 5 Gloria Scott recalls the assassination of Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468014">Tape: 5 Gloria Scott talks about school desegregation</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468015">Tape: 5 Gloria Scott recalls the accreditation of North Carolina Agricultural and Technical College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468016">Tape: 5 Gloria Scott recalls working at Texas Southern University in Houston, Texas</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468017">Tape: 6 Gloria Scott recalls her vice presidency of Clark College in Atlanta, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468018">Tape: 6 Gloria Scott recalls her presidency of Bennett College in Greensboro, North Carolina</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468019">Tape: 6 Gloria Scott talks about Johnnetta B. Cole and Niara Sudarkasa</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468020">Tape: 6 Gloria Scott talks about the accreditation of historically black colleges</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468021">Tape: 6 Gloria Scott describes her work with the Girl Scouts</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468022">Tape: 6 Gloria Scott remembers promoting diversity in Girl Scouting</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468023">Tape: 6 Gloria Scott describes her presidency of the Girl Scouts of the United States of America</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468024">Tape: 6 Gloria Scott recalls leading the National Urban League's education committee</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468025">Tape: 6 Gloria Scott describes her work with the United Negro College Fund</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468026">Tape: 7 Gloria Scott recalls her conflict with the United Negro College Fund</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468027">Tape: 7 Gloria Scott talks about the United Negro College Fund</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468028">Tape: 7 Gloria Scott describes her community involvement, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468029">Tape: 7 Gloria Scott describes her community involvement, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468030">Tape: 7 Gloria Scott talks about her presidency of Bennett College in Greensboro, North Carolina</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468031">Tape: 7 Gloria Scott describes her hopes and concerns for the African American community, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468032">Tape: 7 Gloria Scott describes her hopes and concerns for the African American community, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468033">Tape: 8 Gloria Scott describes her hopes and concerns for the African American community, pt. 3</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468034">Tape: 8 Gloria Scott reflects upon her life</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468035">Tape: 8 Gloria Scott describes how she would like to be remembered</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468036">Tape: 8 Gloria Scott recalls the St. John Missionary Baptist Church in Houston, Texas</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/468037">Tape: 8 Gloria Scott narrates her photographs</a>

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$6

DAStory

8$5

DATitle
Gloria Scott remembers the Greater Rose Hill Missionary Baptist Church in Houston, Texas
Gloria Scott describes her work with the Girl Scouts
Transcript
So now we're in elementary school [Blackshear Elementary School, Houston, Texas].$$Okay. Um-hm.$$What type of student were you?$$Um-hm.$$Well I should say what type of child were you? We know you were a good student.$$Um-hm. Well, I really was a child, I guess that you would probably call square, because, and then again, the early adults to whom I was exposed, starting I guess with kindergarten and my parents [Juanita Bell Randle and Freeman Randle] and the people around us, all were about having you do right and I attributed a lot of my development as the person to my church. I said, I was for a while, I was the only person in my house who went to church. This is before my sister [Greta Randle] and brother [Billy Randle] came back and before the other children were born, I was staying alone with my parents. And Rose Hill [Greater Rose Hill Missionary Baptist Church, Houston, Texas] was right across the street and as later life, I would describe that I was a high energy child, I used up a lot of peoples energies, I mean I was like a sponge and I was attracted to the church and I, I said it many days, the church probably helped keep me out of a lot of trouble, because I would, I would go over--this is the truth and this sounds weird to people when they say, when I say this. I think on Monday night may- maybe they had prayer meeting, I would go over and sit in the back of the church for prayer meeting. On Tuesday night, they had something else, I would go over. On Wednesday night they had Christian benevolence meeting. Now, I learned probably as a very young girl what a benevolence fund was, how people in the church would put their money together so that when people needed loans and things, benevolence and I, 'cause I asked, what the word was, I, I was inquisitive like that. If there was something I didn't really know, I'd ask. And Mr. Milligan [ph.], the husband of the ma- of the woman I was telling who'd take--I would go home with them on Sundays he worked for the post office, he was the person in charge of that, then I'd go to choir rehearsal and then Sunday school teacher, teachers' meeting on Friday night, I would go over and sit and listen. So, the church, a lot of that and then the people there would take us on field trips and we always had six weeks of summer bible school, you know, it isn't like now days, it's two days or whatever? We would have six weeks and it was great for the children, because we had nothing else really to do. And so that kind of helped to shape me to be the kind of person that I was and to really learn. And when I was seven, we were practicing for the Easter play. We had Easter, churches, you know, used to have Easter programs on Easter Sunday, and we were doing the, going to reenact the crucifixion and so we were practicing on Friday evening, Good Friday before Sunday and this, the girls were playing Mary Magdalene and all the others and the boy had the cross on his shoulder and, you know, the--the various things and so we were going down the aisle and so the girls were crying and we were, and so our, our director said, "Okay, you all can stop, that was good, we're all ready for Sunday." And so I remember sitting down and I was crying, I sat in the chair and I was crying, and so she came over she said, "Gloria [HistoryMaker Gloria Scott], you can stop crying now. It's all over, it's good. You all are doing good," and I said to her, "Did they really kill him just because he was doing good?" And she said, in later years, again as an adult, she said, that you can't imagine, "I said, 'What, what--if, I said, yes?'" And I said, "Well, if that's the truth, I want to be like him and I want to be a Christian, so I want to be baptized Sunday." They always baptize on Easter Sunday, and she told us later, she said, "I said, 'Oh girl, unh-uh, your mama, no you can't just decide you wanna be baptized. No you--I have to go and ask.'" I said, "Well, will you go and ask my mother?" She said, "I have to go and ask your mother." Well, we lived right across the street. So we went over to my house and again at this time my mother was not in church, nobody in my family was in church so she told my mother that I had said that I wanted to be baptized. So my mother said, "Girl, you don't know what you're talking about," and I said, "I do, I wanna be like Jesus." And she said, "Oh, you don't know what you're talking about," and I said, "I do, yes I do, I do want to be like Jesus, I want to do good; I want to do the right things." So eventually she relinquished and so she had to get a dress, get a white dress for me for Sunday to be baptized. So I was baptized on Sund- Easter Sunday morning, and nobody in my family was there.$Now, s- stepping out of the academic arena--$$Um-hm.$$--we need to talk a little bit about your involvement with the Girl Scouts [Girl Scouts of the United States of America].$$All right, sure. I was a girl, Girl Scout here in Houston [Texas] in San Jacinto Girl Scout Council and I think a little bit earlier I told you about that, about going to Oklahoma and all that. So, when I went away to college [Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana] I was not involved and at my job at Knoxville [Knoxville College, Knoxville, Tennessee] as dean of students, at that time that was in 1965, a Dr. Jeanne L. Noble who was on the board of Girl Scouts, national board, who was one of my mentors, she had been president of Delta Sigma Theta [Delta Sigma Theta Sorority] when I was the second vice president and they had gotten Girl Scouting to try out a new program, called Campus Gold, to try to look at young women who had gone, who'd graduated and had gone to college who were Girl Scouts and to see could we not get them as volunteers to learn to be troop leaders and so forth. And so, she called up and ha- had the Girl Scouts ask me if I would have a Campus Gold group on Knoxville's campus and we did. So we created that Girl Scout group and we sponsored three troops for girls, Brownies, Juniors and ca- two, two Brownies and a Junior troop in the low income neighborhood right around Knoxville College. And it was a fantastic thing for the college girls as well as the students so. And in Girl Scouting once you start doing something as a volunteer, they keep, you know they keep rolling over and so, the next thing I knew I was asked to serve on a regional committee and that to help select kids for international opportunities, and I said I would do that because also, I wanted to always try to make sure that things are equal and the girls, black girls had a acqu- equal access to those. So I served on that group and then we moved to North Carolina to Greensboro at A&T [Agricultural and Technical College of North Carolina; North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University], and while I, when I went there, Girl Scouting was just undergoing kind of a realignment like it's doing right now nationally, and council coverage and a new council had been created and I was asked to serve on a committee to help set up the personnel policies and all for that council and to help them recruit the first executive director. So I did and I did another volunteer job.

Prince Jackson, Jr.

Prince Albert Jackson, Jr., was born on March 17, 1925, in Savannah, Georgia, to Julia and Prince Albert, Sr. Jackson graduated with honors from Beach-Cuyler High School in 1942 and joined the United States Naval Reserve. Jackson received his B.A. degree in mathematics from Savannah State University in 1949, and his M.A. degree from Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences from the New York University Graduate School of Arts and Sciences in 1950. Jackson later received his Ph.D. in philosophy with distinction from Boston College. While studying at Boston College, Jackson was named one of the school’s first six Distinguished Alumni.

In 1971, Jackson became the seventh President of Savannah State College. During his tenure as president, Jackson established the third Naval Reserve Officer Training Corp (NROTC) at a university; he also established the University’s radio station, WHCJ-FM, which was the fifth station established on an African American college campus. The observation of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Day was the result of Jackson’s initiative along with the increase in faculty and teachers holding doctorates. In 1978, Jackson stepped down as President of Savannah State University, but continued to serve as a member of the faculty until 1999 when he retired.

Jackson was the recipient of thirty-five academic awards and honors, and a member of twenty-nine professional and scholastic organizations. Jackson was also a lifetime member of the NAACP, where he served as President of the Savannah branch in 2003. Jackson authored over fourteen research and scholarly articles. After retiring in 1999, Jackson continued his active involvement in various community projects including being an advocate for the mentally challenged and the NAACP Voter Empowerment Project.

Jackson was married to the former Marilyn Striggles of Sylvania, Georgia; the couple had five children.

Accession Number

A2007.028

Sex

Male

Interview Date

1/24/2007

Last Name

Jackson

Maker Category
Middle Name

Albert

Occupation
Schools

Alfred E. Beach High School

Savannah State University

Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences

Boston College

St. Benedict the Moor Catholic School

First Name

Prince

Birth City, State, Country

Savannah

HM ID

JAC22

Favorite Season

Spring

State

Georgia

Favorite Quote

If You Want Your Prayers Answered, Get Up Off Your Knees And Hustle.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Georgia

Interview Description
Birth Date

3/17/1925

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Savannah

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Beans (Lima)

Death Date

9/21/2010

Short Description

College president Prince Jackson, Jr. (1925 - 2010 ) was the seventh president of Savannah State College.

Employment

Savannah State College

Favorite Color

Green

Timing Pairs
0,0:3818,55:4399,71:6225,165:10292,287:25440,434:26565,546:45087,850:45549,857:48552,906:55097,1053:55713,1070:56329,1078:56714,1084:68184,1251:73008,1378:75528,1434:75816,1439:76464,1454:77184,1465:80856,1534:83304,1571:88128,1670:94225,1692:94699,1732:103152,1928:103468,1933:103863,1939:105443,1990:111573,2031:113598,2068:117891,2211:136226,2492:138596,2537:142467,2621:144205,2652:144995,2718:145706,2731:162285,3007:170880,3101$0,0:1800,26:2160,32:6048,123:7488,145:8352,162:9432,187:14616,279:15624,398:15984,404:43068,715:59850,1050:77282,1317:80766,1386:82441,1428:86796,1523:87131,1535:90012,1604:92223,1714:110545,2012:113598,2096:114166,2106:120002,2119:129662,2297:134282,2419:148072,2647:148756,2659:167720,2967:172335,3118:195390,3542:195918,3550:196886,3564:205492,3623:261070,4393
DAStories

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505591">Tape: 1 Slating of Prince Jackson, Jr.'s interview</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505592">Tape: 1 Prince Jackson, Jr. lists his favorites</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505593">Tape: 1 Prince Jackson, Jr. describes his father's background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505594">Tape: 1 Prince Jackson, Jr. describes his mother's family background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505595">Tape: 1 Prince Jackson, Sr. lists his siblings</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505596">Tape: 1 Prince Jackson, Jr. describes his earliest childhood memory</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505597">Tape: 1 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls his upbringing in Savannah, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505599">Tape: 1 Prince Jackson, Jr. describes the sights, sounds and smells of his childhood</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505601">Tape: 1 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls St. Patrick's Day celebrations in Savannah, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505603">Tape: 1 Prince Jackson, Jr. describes his childhood community in Savannah, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505605">Tape: 1 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls his Catholic schooling in Savannah, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505607">Tape: 1 Prince Jackson, Jr. remembers St. Benedict the Moor Catholic School</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505614">Tape: 2 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls graduating from Beach-Cuyler High School in Savannah, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505616">Tape: 2 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls his experience in the U.S. Navy</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505618">Tape: 2 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls when his mother saved the money he earned from the U.S. Navy</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505620">Tape: 2 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls his U.S. Navy training</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505622">Tape: 2 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls graduating from Savannah's Georgia State College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505624">Tape: 2 Prince Jackson, Jr. describes his education at Georgia State College in Savannah, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505626">Tape: 2 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls being hired to teach at Georgia State College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505629">Tape: 2 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls his activities at Georgia State College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505631">Tape: 2 Prince Jackson, Jr. remembers the Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences in New York City</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505632">Tape: 2 Prince Jackson, Jr. describes his early teaching career</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505653">Tape: 3 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls being fired due to his NAACP involvement</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505654">Tape: 3 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls serving as the athletic director of Savannah's St. Pius X High School</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505655">Tape: 3 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls applying to Boston College's Ph.D. degree program</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505656">Tape: 3 Prince Jackson, Jr. describes his decision to return to Savannah State College's faculty</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505657">Tape: 3 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls the impact of the Civil Rights Movement on Savannah State College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505658">Tape: 3 Prince Jackson, Jr. talks about his family members</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505659">Tape: 3 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls hiring faculty at Savannah State College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505660">Tape: 3 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls founding Savannah State College's WHCJ Radio</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505661">Tape: 3 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls establishing a Naval Reserve Officers' Training Corps program</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505691">Tape: 4 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls the desegregation of Savannah-Chatham County Public Schools, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505692">Tape: 4 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls the desegregation of Savannah-Chatham County Public Schools, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505693">Tape: 4 Prince Jackson, Jr. describes the impact of integration on Savannah State College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505694">Tape: 4 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls the construction of the Asa H. Gordon Library</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505695">Tape: 4 Prince Jackson, Jr. remembers his NAACP involvement in Savannah, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505696">Tape: 4 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls his work with Shirley James at Savannah State College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505697">Tape: 4 Prince Jackson, Jr. remembers Professor Hanes Walton, Jr.</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505698">Tape: 4 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls how he allocated funds at Savannah State College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505699">Tape: 4 Prince Jackson, Jr. remembers returning to the faculty of Savannah State College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505700">Tape: 4 Prince Jackson, Jr. describes his organizational activities in Savannah, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505709">Tape: 5 Prince Jackson, Jr. describes his involvement in the Roman Catholic Diocese of Savannah</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505710">Tape: 5 Prince Jackson, Jr. talks about his children and grandchildren</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505711">Tape: 5 Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls integrating the Knights of Columbus in Savannah, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505712">Tape: 5 Prince Jackson, Jr. talks about the African American Catholic leadership</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505713">Tape: 5 Prince Jackson, Jr. reflects upon his life</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505714">Tape: 5 Prince Jackson, Jr. talks about destinations he plans to visit</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505715">Tape: 5 Prince Jackson, Jr. describes his hopes for African American youth</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/505716">Tape: 5 Prince Jackson, Jr. describes how he would like to be remembered</a>

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$3

DAStory

1$8

DATitle
Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls being fired due to his NAACP involvement
Prince Jackson, Jr. recalls founding Savannah State College's WHCJ Radio
Transcript
All right, so we were talking about the fact that you, because of your NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People] activities, you were fired from William James High School [William James Middle School, Statesboro, Georgia].$$Yes, uh-huh.$$Okay, and you called--$$President Payne [William K. Payne].$$--President Payne.$$Yeah, uh-huh.$$Okay, so, so tell me what happens?$$Yeah, I'll tell you. Just let me step back a minute and tell you--$$Okay.$$--why I was fired.$$Okay.$$I invited Ralph Mark Gilbert. There, there's a museum down the street that's named for him, Ralph Mark Gilbert Civil Rights Museum [Savannah, Georgia], right down the street there that's named for him.$$Ralph Mar-?$$Ralph Mark Gilbert.$$Okay.$$He was probably the greatest NAACP worker in Georgia. And had invited him up to speak to my class. I was senior class advisor. And he told me ahead of time, he said you, you know, the way I speak, you might get into trouble. I told well, then let it be, so be it (laughter). And he came up, and he talked about the [U.S.] Supreme Court decision [Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, 1954] and for African American families to start getting ready because their children were going to go to those white schools, and he pa- particularly said Statesboro High School [Statesboro, Georgia] and all that. Well, the superintendent was also at that commencement. And I could look at him and tell that he didn't appreciate what Ralph Mark Gilbert was saying. And he thanked me as one of the NAACP workers and that sort of thing that I had invited him, him up there, and so they fired me. It was just--it, it, it wasn't no big deal. As a matter of fact, Denise [Denise Gines], the letter that the superintendent used to fire me, I used it several times when I was president at Savannah State College [Savannah State University, Savannah, Georgia] 'cause it was just so smooth. I had just never seen a letter written quite that (laughter), quite that way. They'd simply reorganized the school, and they organized me out of position. So, after I got fired, I, I called and, and, and put in my application to President Payne. And I, I told him that, that, you know, that I'd left Statesboro [Georgia] under mysterious conditions. I was fired. It's the way he knew it. He said, "Well, Mr. Jackson [HistoryMaker Prince Jackson, Jr.]," said, "I know," said, "this news gets out," and said, "Well, I'm, I'm proud of you." And I'd, I'd been in his office all that morning talking to him. And about one o'clock that day when I got home, C.V. Troup, Cornelius V. Troup, who was president of Fort Valley State College [Fort Valley State University, Fort Valley, Georgia], had also learned that I had been fired, and he called me at home. And see, he wanted me to come to Fort Valley State to join his, his mathematics department too, but I'd already committed to Savannah State. So that's how I ended up at Savannah State rather than at Fort Valley State. And I became an instructor of mathematics and alumni secretary at Savannah State when that happened.$And then I found out that Clark College [Clark Atlanta University] in Atlanta [Georgia] beca- Clark College in Atlanta was setting up a, a radio station on their campus. Then I did some research, and I found out that Clark College was, had been only the fourth African American school [HBCU] that had its own radio station. And so I came back, and I talked to the chancellor about setting up our radio station. And he said, "Well, you don't have the money, and we can't give you the money for that." He said, "You can set it up, if you can find the money." Well, providence is a funny thing. I was on a program at B.C. [Benedictine Military School, Savannah, Georgia] to receive, they call it the Benedictine Gold Medal of Excellence. The bishop was going to receive--one of the bishop of Diocese of Savannah [Roman Catholic Diocese of Savannah] was also receiving one. And then there was another white gentleman who owned Savannah Marina [Thunderbolt Marina Inc., Savannah, Georgia], whose name was William Honey [William E. Honey]. He was also receiving--there were three of us who were gonna receive the Benedictine Gold Medal of Excellence. I sat next to him, Denise [Denise Gines], and you're gonna laugh when I tell you this. I found out he was a Lutheran. And I said to myself, now when a Catholic school is giving a Lutheran the highest honor, there can only be one reason for it. He must have given them a whole lot of money or had done something good for them 'cause, you know, Martin Luther was the thing that, that split us.$$Right.$$And so I talked to him, and I told him about this radio station that I wanted and all, and I just couldn't get the money, and that I was trying to get the money. He didn't say a word, he didn't, he didn't, he didn't. He just told me, he wished me luck and that sort of thing. This was on a Saturday night. And so the three of us, the bishop of the Diocese of Savannah, myself, and Mr. Hon- Honey, we all got Medal of Excellence. And we went to the receptions, and people pat us on the back and all of that. Well, when I went to my office on that Monday, about 10:30 that morning, somebody told me that somebody was riding up in front of the building in a raggedy 1967 Lincoln Continental. And they were getting ready to give him a ticket 'cause he was in a yellow line area. And I went down there, and I saw it was Mr. Honey. And I told the chief, my chief of police, if he put a ticket on that car, I would fire him on the spot (laughter). Well, I rushed back to my office 'cause I didn't want Mr. Honey to see me. Mr. Honey came in, and he gave my secretary an envelope. He said, "Give this to Dr. Jackson [HistoryMaker Prince Jackson, Jr.]," and he left out. He didn't wait. He say, "Give this to Dr. Jackson for me," and he left out. And so she brought the envelope into me, and I opened the envelope, and it was $10,000. It was--I told him I was gonna need about $10,000 startup money. That man had written over the weekend a check for $10,000. He brought it to me. He--when I got to the front to thank him, he had already gone off in that raggedy 1967 (laughter) Lincoln, this man with all this money. Then later on, he (unclear) came back when I did finally get him to come back. He came back to me and offered to build--we had a creek behind the college [Savannah State College; Savannah State University, Savannah, Georgia]. He wanted to build a dock. He wanted to--he was gonna chain his dredges in there to dredge out the, the creek and all that so that we could start a marine biology program and all that. But, so I built that radio station. At first I had called--asked for the call letters WSSC, but that was already taken. And then I said I have to honor this man somewhere. They didn't--at that time the State of Georgia would not let you name anything for anybody living. So I went to the telephone book, and I looked at the telephone book, and I found all the last names in there that had the most. And it was WHC and J, and so I named our radio station WHCJ [WHCJ Radio, Savannah, Georgia] but mostly the H because of Honey. I had to get him in there somewhere. And the reason why it's named WHCJ because those call letters had the most entry in the Savannah [Georgia] phone directory. And so we named it WHCJ, and so we became the fifth radio station on an African American campus.

Rena Bancroft

Rena Ercelle Merritt Bancroft was born on September 14, 1931 in Clinton, North Carolina to Sadie B. Herring and William Edward Merritt. Her maternal grandfather was named George Washington Herring. When slavery ended, he founded the Sampson County Normal and Industrial School, one of the first college preparatory high schools for African Americans. Bancroft grew up in Clinton, North Carolina. In 1948, Bancroft took the College Entrance Examination Board test, earning the highest score in the State of North Carolina. As a result of her score, Bancroft earned a Pepsi-Cola scholarship, which funded her undergraduate studies. After attending Howard University for two years, she transferred to Syracuse University, from where she earned her B.A. and M.A. degrees in home economics and education.

In 1952, Bancroft began her teaching career in Watertown, New York. She taught morning and evening classes in home economics. Bancroft stayed in Watertown for two years, then she moved in with her aunt, Rena Hawkins, and taught in Syracuse, New York. In 1956, Bancroft decided to move to the West Coast, where she joined the Oakland Public School System. She taught at Havenscourt Junior High School for four years followed by Montera Middle School, where she stayed for another three years. In the evenings and during the summer, Bancroft taught sewing at Oakland High School. For the McCall Pattern Company, Bancroft conducted sewing and other home economic demonstrations at schools in San Francisco and San Jose. Bancroft went on to become the first African American female principal for the San Mateo Union High School District. In 1986, Bancroft became president of the San Francisco Community College Centers. Also that year, she earned her Ph.D. in education from the University of California – Berkeley. Bancroft remained president of the centers until 1991, when she began directing the centers' evening division and adult program. When she retired, Bancroft worked as a consultant for the State of California, evaluating school programs.

Bancroft was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on April 7, 2006.

Accession Number

A2006.070

Sex

Female

Archival Photo 1
Interview Date

4/7/2006

Last Name

Bancroft

Maker Category
Occupation
Schools

Syracuse University

Archival Photo 2
First Name

Rena

Birth City, State, Country

Clinton

HM ID

BAN04

Favorite Season

Spring

State

North Carolina

Favorite Vacation Destination

South Africa

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

California

Interview Description
Birth Date

9/14/1931

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Bay Area/San Francisco

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Strawberries

Short Description

College president Rena Bancroft (1931 - ) was the first African American female principal in the San Mateo Union High School District. She also served as president of the San Francisco Community College Centers.

Employment

San Mateo Union High School District

San Francisco Community College Centers

Favorite Color

Red

Timing Pairs
0,0:3440,201:4400,216:10036,286:10376,292:12892,358:14184,388:15408,410:15748,417:16496,430:22360,485:22920,499:28692,596:29140,605:29588,614:31892,671:34260,732:34708,740:35732,771:36052,777:39384,792:40242,806:42222,853:49218,999:49614,1006:50142,1015:50604,1024:54300,1101:55950,1134:65238,1294:68126,1351:68582,1358:69722,1375:70102,1381:71242,1406:71698,1413:72154,1420:73142,1436:75422,1496:75878,1503:82180,1541:86277,1572:86722,1578:90458,1616:98020,1734:98860,1769:100120,1794:100960,1815:108857,1909:109490,1914$0,0:1064,35:5092,203:11090,274:16406,346:22725,471:24997,523:30119,569:30534,575:31032,583:35348,656:43814,795:55180,951:55716,960:58530,1026:66940,1138:70060,1207:78232,1329:97806,1513:98214,1518:98622,1523:104334,1655:106068,1680:114690,1764:120165,1858:120690,1866:121515,1879:122715,1898:131664,2020:132044,2026:146636,2396:147092,2403:147396,2408:159108,2564:171884,2831:176984,2941:191436,3118:192156,3133:192588,3140:192876,3145:193164,3150:193452,3178:209890,3406
DAStories

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/397372">Tape: 1 Slating of Rena Bancroft's interview, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/397373">Tape: 1 Slating of Rena Bancroft's interview, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/397374">Tape: 1 Rena Bancroft lists her favorites</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/397375">Tape: 1 Rena Bancroft talks about her maternal grandfather</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/397376">Tape: 1 Rena Bancroft talks about her mother's romantic relationships</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/397377">Tape: 1 Rena Bancroft describes her father's family background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/397378">Tape: 1 Rena Bancroft talks about her ancestry in North Carolina</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/397379">Tape: 1 Rena Bancroft recalls her relationship with Burl Toler, Sr.</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398612">Tape: 2 Rena Bancroft remembers Melvia Woolfolk Toler's illness</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398613">Tape: 2 Rena Bancroft describes her earliest childhood memories</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398614">Tape: 2 Rena Bancroft remembers her sister's work as a children's librarian</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398615">Tape: 2 Rena Bancroft talks about her affinity for pigs</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398616">Tape: 2 Rena Bancroft recalls her early family life</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398617">Tape: 2 Rena Bancroft remembers singing with her family</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398618">Tape: 2 Rena Bancroft describes her community in Clinton, North Carolina</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398619">Tape: 2 Rena Bancroft recalls her early education in Clinton, North Carolina</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398620">Tape: 2 Rena Bancroft remembers serving as a high school principal</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398621">Tape: 3 Rena Bancroft remembers her sister's education</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398622">Tape: 3 Rena Bancroft recalls transferring to Garland High School in Garland, North Carolina</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398623">Tape: 3 Rena Bancroft remembers earning a full scholarship from Pepsi-Cola</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398624">Tape: 3 Rena Bancroft remembers her mentor, Paul F. Lawrence</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398625">Tape: 3 Rena Bancroft remembers her high school principal, W.M. McLean</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398626">Tape: 3 Rena Bancroft talks about her childhood friend, Cassandra McLean Clay</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398627">Tape: 3 Rena Bancroft describes her family's religious background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398628">Tape: 3 Rena Bancroft remembers her relationship with her parents</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/397397">Tape: 4 Rena Bancroft recalls her mother's second marriage</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/397398">Tape: 4 Rena Bancroft remembers Howard University in Washington, D.C.</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/397399">Tape: 4 Rena Bancroft remembers moving to Syracuse, New York</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/397400">Tape: 4 Rena Bancroft recalls living with Rena Hawkins in Syracuse, New York</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/397401">Tape: 4 Rena Bancroft remembers her early teaching career in Upstate New York</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/397402">Tape: 4 Rena Bancroft remembers her career in the Oakland Unified School District</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/397403">Tape: 4 Rena Bancroft remembers her brief marriage to Richard Bancroft</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/397404">Tape: 4 Rena Bancroft recalls her work with the McCall Corporation</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/397405">Tape: 4 Rena Bancroft recalls her early career in the San Mateo Union High School District</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/397406">Tape: 4 Rena Bancroft recalls teaching at Hillsdale High School in San Mateo, California</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398629">Tape: 5 Rena Bancroft remembers meeting with a spiritualist in Vallejo, California, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398630">Tape: 5 Rena Bancroft remembers meeting with a spiritualist in Vallejo, California, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398631">Tape: 5 Rena Bancroft recalls her challenges as a school administrator</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398632">Tape: 5 Rena Bancroft talks about attending church services in San Francisco, California</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398633">Tape: 5 Rena Bancroft recalls applying for the presidency of the San Francisco Community College Centers</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398634">Tape: 5 Rena Bancroft describes her presidency of the San Francisco Community College Centers</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398635">Tape: 5 Rena Bancroft recalls the San Francisco Community College Centers' courses</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398636">Tape: 6 Rena Bancroft reflects upon her life, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398637">Tape: 6 Rena Bancroft reflects upon her life, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398638">Tape: 6 Rena Bancroft describes her house in North Carolina</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398639">Tape: 6 Rena Bancroft reflects upon her values</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398640">Tape: 6 Rena Bancroft describes her organizational activities</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398641">Tape: 6 Rena Bancroft describes how she would like to be remembered</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398642">Tape: 6 Rena Bancroft remembers being late to a meeting in Portland, Oregon</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/398643">Tape: 6 Rena Bancroft narrates her photographs</a>

DASession

1$1

DATape

4$5

DAStory

10$6

DATitle
Rena Bancroft recalls teaching at Hillsdale High School in San Mateo, California
Rena Bancroft describes her presidency of the San Francisco Community College Centers
Transcript
Well you (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) That, that's right (laughter).$$--that's what you were supposed if you teach cooking, you have to move around (laughter).$$Anyhow, when he called me in for my evaluation, he said, "Did you read this?" And I said, "Yes." He said, "What do you think about it?" And I said, "I think it's funny, Mr. Alley [ph.]." I said, "The day that I lost my enthusiasm is the day that I need to stop teaching. And if the only complaint she has is that my children move around in the classroom, that's what I want them to do." I run a three ring circus. I had some kids who would be cooking. I had some kids who would be sewing because we only had seven sewing machines in the room and then I'd have another group and we'd either be doing child development or decorating or something that kept them in their seats at the table and we could work in groups and I ran three like I said I ran three ring circus and the kids had a marvelous time and I did too. And I had people knocking down the doors to get in my classes so that the other--the department chair got angry because her classes fell off and everybody wanted to be in Mrs. Bancroft's [HistoryMaker Rena Bancroft] class. So anyway I stayed there [Hillsdale High School, San Mateo, California] for four years and I had a good time and by the end she and I had become friends but that first year (laughter) we had a supply closet between our two rooms. We had what they call all-purpose rooms, there were sewing machines and tables so the kids could work in and the kitchens. She would actually go in that supply closet and take the flour out, the little canisters of flour into the kitchen so I wouldn't use all the flour. And we all had a budget you know, it was just, just simple stuff. Anyway it turned out to be all right and last time I saw her she wanted to hug and kiss and I just you know long ago and far away.$(Simultaneous) So how was it being president of the, of the colle- (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) Division [San Francisco Community College Centers]?$$--did you enjoy it?$$Yes. I had a lot of trouble with the chancellor, Hilary Hsu. He had a bachelor's degree and I was just about finish with my doctorate. He had lived in the United States from the time he came here to go to college but I guess they have their classifications and there's a difference between the Mandarins and the Cantonese--$$Right, right.$$--and he's Mandarin. He was very snotty. He had a great deal of trouble dealing with me. I threatened him. I didn't mean to but he, he watched me like a hawk. And he made problems for me and I always solved them. And I never said anything to him that was unhappy or nasty until one day he called me in about something silly and I was working on some reports that I had to get in. And I told him I said, "You're keeping me from doing my work. You want those reports this afternoon you need to let me go back to my office." Burl [HistoryMaker Burl Toler, Sr.] was there. He called Burl in too. And he started and started and started, finally I stood up and I said, "I'm not staying here to have you just rant like this. If you have a reason to have me here, fine, but your papers will be on the desk by four o'clock, and I'm going back to finish." And I walked on out. And I finished the papers and I took them back over there at four o'clock and when we got a new chancellor, I don't know what happened with him and the board [San Francisco Community College Board], but the board released him and--$$Oh my.$$--demoted him to teaching in the business department at the downtown center. And when the new chancellor came, I was demoted from whatever I was head--as president of the centers division and I was made the dean of the evening division and when I had to sign students who were coming in to take evening classes, the fo- former chancellor who'd been so mean to me hid in the corner until everybody had gone and then he came over for me to sign his payroll. So I see him once in a while but I stayed seven years there and that was it.$$Oh wow.$$Stayed 'til I was sixty-two (simultaneous).$$(Simultaneous) So what kind of things did you do? Really? What kinds of things did you teach, did you do there?$$I was an administrator. I had the responsibility for seeing that they kept the budgets straight, that their students performed well, that they kept the ADA [Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990] up because we were the cash cow for the district [San Francisco Community College District]. We got less money per student because we were non-credit but we had over sixty thousand students whereas city college [City College of San Francisco, San Francisco, California] only has something like twenty-three or twenty-four thousand so they got--their teachers got paid more than mine did, but we had three times as many students or maybe four times as many students, more than that anyway, we did all right, but my job was to keep my money because when I got there, he took 60 percent of the budget that came from the revenue created by that division and gave it to his own office for the gener- the district office running and then the rest of it went to the credit side.$$Oh my Lord.$$So we had to have a little agreement about that. I got it upped a little bit.

Beverly Daniel Tatum

Educator and clinical psychologist Beverly Christine Daniel Tatum was born on September 27, 1954, in Tallahassee, Florida, to parents Catherine Faith Maxwell and Robert A. Daniel. After completing high school, Tatum received her B.A. degree in psychology from Wesleyan University in 1975. She went on to receive her M.A. degree in clinical psychology from the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, in 1976 and later returned there to receive her Ph.D. in clinical psychology in 1984. In 2000, Tatum received her M.A. degree in religious studies from Hartford Seminary in Hartford, Connecticut.

Tatum began her career in higher education in 1980 as a lecturer in the Department of Black Studies at the University of California at Santa Barbara. During her teaching career, she held professorships in psychology at Westfield State College and Mount Holyoke College. During her tenure at Mount Holyoke College, she was promoted to chair of the Department of Psychology and Education. In 1998, Tatum was appointed as dean of the college and vice president for student affairs. By 2002, she was appointed acting president of Mount Holyoke College before assuming the presidency at Spelman College.

Along with distinguishing herself as a notable educator, Tatum has enjoyed a celebrated career as a clinical psychologist. She worked in independent practice from 1988 to 1998 focusing on individual and group counseling. She specialized in consultation and training related to diversity and multicultural organizational development. Tatum has also written two widely acclaimed books, Assimilation Blues: Black Families in White Communities: Who Succeeds and Why? and ”Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?” And Other Conversations About Race, which was named 1998 Multicultural Book of the Year by the National Association of Multicultural Education.

In addition to serving as president of Spelman College, Tatum serves as a member on many boards, including the Board of the Association of American Colleges and Universities in Washington, D.C., and the Woodruff Arts Center Board in Atlanta, Georgia. She is also active in many professional organizations such as the American Psychological Association, American Educational Research Association and the American Association of University Women among others.

Tatum is married to Dr. Travis Tatum and is the mother of two sons, Travis Jonathan and David.

Accession Number

A2006.039

Sex

Female

Interview Date

3/17/2006

Last Name

Tatum

Maker Category
Middle Name

Daniel

Schools

Burnell Laboratory School

Bridgewater Middle School

Bridgewater-Raynham Regional High School

Wesleyan University

University of Michigan

First Name

Beverly

Birth City, State, Country

Tallahassee

HM ID

TAT01

Favorite Season

Fall, Spring

State

Florida

Favorite Vacation Destination

Oceans

Favorite Quote

Breathe Deeply.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Georgia

Interview Description
Birth Date

9/27/1954

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Atlanta

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Tofu

Short Description

College president and psychology professor Beverly Daniel Tatum (1954 - ) was chair of the Department of Psychology and Education and, later, acting president at Mount Holyoke College, before becoming the president of Spelman College. She has also enjoyed a celebrated career as a clinical psychologist and author.

Employment

University of California Santa Barbara

Westfield State College

Mount Holyoke College

Spelman College

Favorite Color

Pomegranate Red

Timing Pairs
0,0:2940,86:8295,170:12600,186:19212,333:19668,340:24760,430:25216,438:25520,443:25824,448:27344,480:28180,491:28560,497:35810,560:36500,574:42779,703:43331,712:45677,769:46781,791:49472,843:50093,854:52812,990:56170,1013:56660,1022:59250,1071:59530,1087:59880,1093:60370,1102:62190,1138:62750,1147:63030,1152:64850,1203:66880,1246:67160,1252:69120,1315:69890,1330:70170,1335:70450,1340:72480,1384:73880,1419:75140,1442:75910,1458:77730,1491:80880,1594:88988,1685:89708,1716:89996,1721:90644,1733:91220,1742:93812,1814:94100,1819:94676,1828:94964,1833:95612,1845:97124,1880:99068,1933:99644,1942:110748,2112:111672,2128:117348,2311:117612,2316:121374,2383:124080,2443:132950,2501:133450,2507:135150,2529:135950,2538:136750,2547:137650,2559:138550,2569:141350,2599:143850,2642:145450,2682:156020,2757:169876,2990:170380,2998:176140,3138:179524,3210:184045,3224:190195,3338:191545,3374:195145,3446:197995,3519:200470,3568:205850,3586$0,0:7005,134:7503,141:9827,192:10574,237:15886,325:28592,465:38126,576:38454,585:39356,598:43210,666:66887,1045:69077,1080:70099,1106:70391,1111:70975,1120:71559,1129:72289,1141:78786,1285:80830,1329:83020,1379:84042,1400:84480,1408:84918,1415:88790,1429:89231,1441:93137,1539:93515,1546:94460,1565:95027,1576:95783,1590:96035,1595:96413,1603:96728,1609:97988,1637:98240,1642:100130,1702:100508,1710:100760,1715:101831,1744:102335,1754:102587,1759:102902,1765:103343,1777:104540,1800:105170,1811:105611,1880:109076,1951:109454,1958:118058,2091:119444,2112:120368,2126:121138,2137:122601,2180:123063,2187:123679,2196:126297,2242:126913,2252:129916,2302:130224,2307:132229,2320:132544,2326:133426,2343:133804,2350:134182,2357:139115,2427:139490,2433:140090,2442:140915,2456:141215,2461:141890,2472:145551,2517:148316,2626:149264,2642:149738,2649:151002,2671:155821,2743:157717,2787:158349,2796:159929,2826:160640,2838:161035,2844:162062,2864:163563,2887:163958,2893:166249,2941:166802,2949:167513,2961:168303,2981:175042,3032:175538,3041:176034,3050:179196,3114:179506,3121:180002,3131:180374,3138:180746,3146:181242,3156:182296,3185:182854,3195:186760,3231
DAStories

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317492">Tape: 1 Slating of Beverly Daniel Tatum's interview</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317493">Tape: 1 Beverly Daniel Tatum lists her favorites</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317494">Tape: 1 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes her mother</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317495">Tape: 1 Beverly Daniel Tatum remembers visiting Danville, Virginia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317496">Tape: 1 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes her father's side of the family, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317497">Tape: 1 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes her father's side of the family, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317498">Tape: 1 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes her paternal grandparents</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317499">Tape: 1 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes the book 'Twenty Families of Color In Massachusetts'</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317500">Tape: 1 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes her parents, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317501">Tape: 1 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes her parents, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317502">Tape: 1 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes her mother's side of the family, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/316263">Tape: 2 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes her mother's side of the family, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/316264">Tape: 2 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes her father's side of the family, pt. 3</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/316265">Tape: 2 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes her earliest childhood memories</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/316266">Tape: 2 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes her earliest childhood memories and her siblings</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/316267">Tape: 2 Beverly Daniel Tatum remembers her family's move to Bridgewater, Massachusetts</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/316268">Tape: 2 Beverly Daniel Tatum recalls growing up in Florida, Pennsylvania and Louisiana</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/316269">Tape: 2 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes growing up in Bridgewater, Massachusetts</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/316270">Tape: 2 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes the sights, sounds and smells of growing up</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/316271">Tape: 2 Beverly Daniel Tatum remembers her neighbors in Bridgewater, Massachusetts, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317503">Tape: 3 Beverly Daniel Tatum remembers Bridgewater, Massachusetts</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317504">Tape: 3 Beverly Daniel Tatum remembers her neighbors in Bridgewater, Massachusetts, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317505">Tape: 3 Beverly Daniel Tatum recalls Bridgewater's Burnell Laboratory School, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317506">Tape: 3 Beverly Daniel Tatum recalls Bridgewater's Burnell Laboratory School, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317507">Tape: 3 Beverly Daniel Tatum remembers her elementary and junior high school teachers</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317508">Tape: 3 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes holidays and her church in Bridgewater, Massachusetts</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317509">Tape: 3 Beverly Daniel Tatum remembers her time at Bridgewater Middle School</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317510">Tape: 3 Beverly Daniel Tatum recalls her Cape Verdean neighbors</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317511">Tape: 3 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes her childhood personality and her time in high school</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317512">Tape: 4 Beverly Daniel Tatum recalls Bridgewater-Raynham Regional High School</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317513">Tape: 4 Beverly Daniel Tatum remembers choosing Wesleyan University in Middletown, Connecticut</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317514">Tape: 4 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes applying to college and her interest in psychology</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317515">Tape: 4 Beverly Daniel Tatum recalls choosing Wesleyan University in Middletown, Connecticut</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317516">Tape: 4 Beverly Daniel Tatum remembers her instructors at Wesleyan University</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317517">Tape: 4 Beverly Daniel Tatum remembers her time at Wesleyan University in Middletown, Connecticut</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317518">Tape: 4 Beverly Daniel Tatum recalls developing her sense of black pride in college</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317519">Tape: 4 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes her work between college and graduate school</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317520">Tape: 4 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes the development of her racial identity, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317521">Tape: 4 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes the development of her racial identity, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317522">Tape: 5 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes her older brother, Eric Daniel, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317523">Tape: 5 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes her older brother, Eric Daniel, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317524">Tape: 5 Beverly Daniel Tatum remembers attending the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317525">Tape: 5 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes her dissertation advisor, Eric Berman</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317526">Tape: 5 Beverly Daniel Tatum remembers completing her dissertation</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317527">Tape: 5 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes her research about black families</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317528">Tape: 5 Beverly Daniel Tatum recalls teaching a course on racism</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317529">Tape: 5 Beverly Daniel Tatum reflects upon her experiences with racism, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317530">Tape: 5 Beverly Daniel Tatum reflects upon her experiences with racism, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317531">Tape: 6 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes her move from California to Massachusetts</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317532">Tape: 6 Beverly Daniel Tatum remembers her career at Westfield State College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317533">Tape: 6 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes her career trajectory in Massachusetts</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317534">Tape: 6 Beverly Daniel Tatum recalls joining the Mount Holyoke College faculty</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317535">Tape: 6 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes her book 'Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?'</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317536">Tape: 6 Beverly Daniel Tatum talks about her research on racial identity, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317537">Tape: 6 Beverly Daniel Tatum talks about her research on racial identity, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/317538">Tape: 6 Beverly Daniel Tatum describes her career at Mount Holyoke College</a>

DASession

1$1

DATape

4$5

DAStory

10$7

DATitle
Beverly Daniel Tatum describes the development of her racial identity, pt. 2
Beverly Daniel Tatum recalls teaching a course on racism
Transcript
But when I was at Wesleyan [Wesleyan University, Middletown, Connecticut], I became a resident advisor in the residence halls, and in my--on my residence hall, I had two black girls who also had grown up in predominantly white communities and one of them did it the way I did it in the sense that she came to Wesleyan and she really became part of the black community, and another one didn't. She seemed to be uncomfortable, not able to make that transition, and hung out mostly with other white students and I wondered at the time what made the difference. What made the difference for me, what made the difference between these two girls, and that was really my research question when I went off to graduate school. It was like, what makes the difference? And, I studied that question when I did my doctoral dissertation, and I tried to answer the question in my book, 'Assimilation Blues' ['Assimilation Blues: Black Families in a White Community,' Beverly Daniel Tatum], and in the book I described three kinds of families. I discovered, as part of my research, that there were three kinds of families that I described. One was families that were what I would call race conscious. These were black families living in white communities that, even though they were in a white community, they really worked hard to try to make sure that their kids developed a strong sense of black identity. And maybe they did that by visiting their relatives other places, or sending the kids to a black church, or, you know, maybe joining Jack and Jill [Jack and Jill of America, Inc.], or you know, they did things (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) Just immersing themselves in some kind of black environment--$$Trying to find some way to maintain that kind of ongoing connection for their children. And then there were some families that said it was important but didn't really do it, that they were kind of neutral. And then there were families that didn't think it was important, didn't really talk about it, didn't, you know, kind of avoided the whole topic of race, and I called them race-avoidant. If I had to characterize my family, I would call my parents [Catherine Maxwell Daniel and Robert A. Daniel] race neutral.$$Okay.$$You know, they didn't talk a lot about race, they really talked, they talked--or when they did, it was in the spirit of judging people by the content of their character, not by the color of their skin. They were really humanitarians in the sense of I can honestly say I never heard my parents make negative comments about white people or anybody, you know. They were very much guided by the golden rule: treat people the way you want to be treated. That was a clear principle in my household, so I would not give my parents credit for my own desire to establish--to connect with black people because it wasn't necessarily something that they talked a lot about. They didn't say you should do this or you should not do that and, in fact, when I went off to college with my Angela [HistoryMaker Angela Davis] and came home, I went off to college, came home, you know, looking like Angela Davis and talking about power to the people (laughter), you know, my mother thought I had really become kind of anti-white, and she and I had a long conversation about this in my summer after my first year of college, when I said to her, you know, "It's possible to be pro-black without being anti-white," you know. It's not necessarily both--you know, you don't have--I still had white friends, I still saw my high school friends, but clearly my focus had shifted.$So, I got invited to teach a course in the black studies department. The first course I was invited to teach was a course called--was really about black children and education. It was called Education and the Black Child. So, I taught that course and it went pretty well, and then I was asked to teach another one, and the second course I was asked to teach was called Group Exploration of Racism, and I had not ever taught a course like that before, but I, as a psychologist, had facilitated groups, you know, assertiveness training groups, all kinds of groups. And I had done all this reading about coping patterns and responses to racism on the parts of black families and so, anyway, to make a long story short, I thought I could do it and so I, and I needed the money (laughter) so I was offered the opportunity and I took it and I wasn't, I was twenty-five years old, I mean I was still young. Maybe I was twenty-six. I got married when I was twenty-four, going on twenty-four, so maybe I was twenty-six at this time, but I was a new professor and even though I wasn't very experienced, I had a very powerful teaching experience, because at the end of the semester, teaching this course, Group Exploration of Racism, my students said, "This course was the best course we've taken at this university. Everybody should take this course. It should be required." And I just felt like, wow, this is really powerful, and what was it that was making the course such a powerful learning experience? And, what I concluded was it was really about giving young people the permission to talk about a topic that had been a taboo up to that point for them. I mean, it was a very uncommon thing to be able to come together in a racially mixed class and talk about race. Most people hadn't had that experience before.$$Now were there as many whites as there were blacks, or were there--$$Oh, there were more whites, it was mostly white, so it wasn't evenly divided. The University of California at Santa Barbara [University of California, Santa Barbara, Santa Barbara, California] was the least diverse of the University of California campuses at the time that I was there, and that's probably still true. The black student population was about two percent, the Chicano student population was maybe five percent, the Asian population was a little higher perhaps, but it was still largely white campus.$$Well, a lot of times black students will shy away from classes on racism, but in that particular instance, you still had black representation (simultaneous)--?$$(Simultaneous) Yes, I did. I did. So, you know, if their class had maybe thirty students in it, maybe five of the students were black, and that's not a huge number but it is certainly, you know maybe 20 percent of the students would be black, and that, for most of the white students, was a new experience, being in a class with 20 percent of the students being of color, because most of the time, maybe there'd just be one or two. And, but anyway it was a very powerful teaching experience, and as the result of it, I made a personal decision that I wanted to always teach a course on racism. I thought it was an important social duty that I should engage in.

Harold Pates

Educator and cultural activist Harold Pates was born October 31, 1931, in Macon, Mississippi. His great aunt, raised in slavery, lost two fingers to her master for attempting to read. Pates’ parents, Amanda Beasley Pates and Squire Pates were graduates of Bolivar Training School in Mound Bayou, Mississsippi. Migrating to Chicago, Illinois, Pates attended Forestville Elementary School and DuSable High School graduating in 1948. Taught music by DuSable’s Captain Walter Dyett, Pates played with Eddie Harris, Richard Davis, John Gilmore, Jimmy Ellis and other future greats. Pates graduated from Wilson Junior College in 1952 and DePaul University with his B.A. degree in English in 1954. He earned his M.A. degree from DePaul in 1956 and received his PhD degree from the University of Chicago in 1976.

Pates taught at Fuller Elementary School and Forestville Elementary School, and was assistant principal of DuSable Upper Grade Center from 1964 to 1968. He served as a counselor at DuSable Upper Grade Center and High School and as a guidance counselor for the Hyde Park Evening School. As teacher and administrator, Pates joined Lawrence Landry, Lu and Jorja Palmer, Rev. C.T. Vivian, Lorenzo Martin, Bobby E. Wright, and others in agitating for African American concerns in the Chicago Public Schools. In 1968, he joined Loop College where he became director of the Admissions Department. Pates also taught at Loyola University, George Williams College, Northeastern Illinois University, and Concordia College. He also helped plan the first Upward Bound Program. Appointed dean of career programs at Malcolm X College in 1981, Pates moved on to Kennedy-King College as a dean in 1983. In 1986, Pates was named president of Kennedy-King College, serving until 1997. At Kennedy-King, he provided access for cultural and civic organizations and events at an unprecedented level.

Active in efforts to generate an African version of the history and culture of Africa and to infuse the black experience into the educational system, Pates was a founder of the Chicago Communiversity and the Association of African Educators with Anderson Thompson in the late 1960s. He was a founding member of the Kemetic Institute, the Association of Black Psychologists, the National Association of Black School Educators, the Black United Front, the Chicago Task Force for Black Political Empowerment, the Association for the Study of Classical African Civilizations, and the Harold Washington Institute. Recipient of numerous awards, ranging from the Chancellors Award for outstanding Leadership to the Muntu Dance Theatre’s Alyo Award, Pates currently serves on the board of the Black United Fund of Illinois and the advisory board of the Jacob H. Carruthers Center for Inner City Studies of Northeastern Illinois University. He is founding director of the All African World Virtual University. Fit, playing full court basketball into his 70s, Pates, now retired, enjoys golf and playing jazz on the cornet.

A widower, Pates has a grown daughter and son.

Accession Number

A2005.263

Sex

Male

Interview Date

12/12/2005

7/10/2006

Last Name

Pates

Maker Category
Schools

Du Sable Leadership Academy

University of Chicago

DePaul University

Kennedy–King College

Forrestville Elementary School

Speakers Bureau

Yes

First Name

Harold

Birth City, State, Country

Macon

HM ID

PAT04

Favorite Season

Summer

State

Mississippi

Favorite Vacation Destination

Palm Springs, California

Favorite Quote

Ain't Nobody Right But God.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Illinois

Interview Description
Birth Date

10/31/1931

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Chicago

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Pie (Sweet Potato)

Short Description

Cultural activist, college president, and teacher Harold Pates (1931 - ) is the former president of Kennedy-King College in Chicago. He has worked with numerous organizations dedicated to infusing the African American experience into the educational system, and is founding director of the All African World Virtual University.

Employment

Fuller Elementary School

Wisconsin Steel Mill

Forestville Elementary School

DuSable High School

Loop College

Malcolm X College

Kennedy-King College

Favorite Color

Black

Timing Pairs
0,0:21420,206:21987,214:25718,254:44501,452:45025,459:53755,551:57626,606:87314,899:91822,996:92190,1001:98300,1030:116865,1202:119688,1241:120816,1298:159040,1744:173679,1985:174658,2088:193630,2262:196750,2327:198190,2358:198990,2378:200750,2406:201310,2414:201710,2420:230230,2794:231130,2804:231490,2809:234010,2894:244384,3040:250104,3161:250832,3169:256510,3231:259570,3287:271136,3435:271432,3440:273208,3476:278900,3590$0,0:14673,127:15037,132:16038,144:26678,312:27194,319:30497,336:31892,367:38867,446:39239,451:44982,470:54843,604:87960,1128:88300,1133:92465,1214:97790,1268:102020,1284:108160,1314:108889,1324:110509,1346:112320,1354:115354,1416:121390,1467:123290,1498:132869,1600:133487,1608:134002,1614:134517,1620:136474,1643:156384,2004:158270,2045:170548,2268:171277,2278:191640,2544
DAStories

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324594">Tape: 1 Slating of Harold Pates' interview</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324595">Tape: 1 Harold Pates lists his favorites</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324596">Tape: 1 Harold Pates describes his mother's family background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324597">Tape: 1 Harold Pates describes his mother's family history in the A.M.E. church</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324598">Tape: 1 Harold Pates recalls working conditions in his maternal family's community in the South</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324599">Tape: 1 Harold Pates recalls traveling to Mississippi as a boy</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324600">Tape: 1 Harold Pates explains why his parents sent him south for the summers</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324601">Tape: 1 Harold Pates describes his mother's personality, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324602">Tape: 2 Harold Pates describes his mother's personality, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324603">Tape: 2 Harold Pates describes his father's family background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324604">Tape: 2 Harold Pates relates his paternal family's stories from the era of slavery</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324605">Tape: 2 Harold Pates recalls spending summers in Macon, Mississippi as a boy</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324606">Tape: 2 Harold Pates describes confrontations with whites in Mississippi, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324607">Tape: 2 Harold Pates recalls confrontations with whites in Mississippi, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324608">Tape: 2 Harold Pates describes his father's community in Mound Bayou, Mississippi</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324609">Tape: 3 Harold Pates recalls his father's move from Mississippi to Chicago</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324610">Tape: 3 Harold Pates recalls his father's work for the post office</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324611">Tape: 3 Harold Pates describes his siblings</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324612">Tape: 3 Harold Pates describes his sister's career as an opera singer</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324613">Tape: 3 Harold Pates describes his earliest childhood memory, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324614">Tape: 3 Harold Pates describes his earliest childhood memory, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324615">Tape: 3 Harold Pates describes the sights, sounds and smells of his childhood</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324616">Tape: 4 Harold Pates remembers learning to drive at the age of twelve</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324617">Tape: 4 Harold Pates recalls Chicago's Bronzeville neighborhood during his childhood</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324618">Tape: 4 Harold Pates recalls performers who lived in and visited Chicago's Bronzeville neighborhood</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324619">Tape: 4 Harold Pates recalls his activities as a child in Chicago's Bronzeville neighborhood</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324620">Tape: 4 Harold Pates describes being a paperboy in Chicago's white neighborhoods</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324621">Tape: 4 Harold Pates recalls running policy as a child in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325093">Tape: 5 Harold Pates describes influential figures in Chicago's Bronzeville neighborhood</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325094">Tape: 5 Harold Pates recalls famous musicians from Chicago's Bronzeville neighborhood</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325095">Tape: 5 Harold Pates describes the geography of his childhood neighborhood on Chicago's South Side</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325096">Tape: 5 Harold Pates describes his father's civil rights activism</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325097">Tape: 5 Harold Pates talks about systemic racial oppression</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325098">Tape: 5 Harold Pates recalls segregation in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325099">Tape: 5 Harold Pates describes racial tension in Chicago's South Side neighborhoods</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324629">Tape: 6 Harold Pates recalls Chicago's political machine in Bronzeville</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324630">Tape: 6 Harold Pates recalls institutions in Chicago's Bronzeville neighborhood</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324631">Tape: 6 Harold Pates describes businesses in Chicago's Bronzeville neighborhood</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324632">Tape: 6 Harold Pates recalls a teacher at Chicago's Forrestville Elementary School</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324633">Tape: 6 Harold Pates describes his grade school experiences in Chicago</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324634">Tape: 6 Harold Pates describes his extracurricular activities during grade school</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324635">Tape: 7 Harold Pates recalls his childhood neighbor William Cousins, Jr.</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324636">Tape: 7 Harold Pates describes his favorite activities at Chicago's DuSable High School</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324637">Tape: 7 Harold Pates describes politically radical community groups in Chicago</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324638">Tape: 7 Harold Pates recalls hearing W.E.B. Du Bois and Paul Robeson speak, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324639">Tape: 7 Harold Pates recalls hearing W.E.B. Du Bois and Paul Robeson speak, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324640">Tape: 7 Harold Pates describes the social atmosphere of Chicago's DuSable High School</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324641">Tape: 7 Harold Pates recalls musicians who studied at Chicago's DuSable High School</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324642">Tape: 7 Harold Pates remembers working as a musician as a teenager</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324643">Tape: 8 Harold Pates recalls graduating from Chicago's DuSable High School</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324644">Tape: 8 Harold Pates describes working for Wisconsin Steel, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324645">Tape: 8 Harold Pates describes working for Wisconsin Steel, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324646">Tape: 8 Harold Pates describes his initial setbacks at Chicago's Wilson Junior College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324647">Tape: 8 Harold Pates reflects on his father's support for his education</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324648">Tape: 8 Harold Pates describes his experiences at Chicago's DePaul University</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324649">Tape: 8 Harold Pates explains how his DePaul University degree helped him to find a job</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324650">Tape: 9 Harold Pates describes his academic pursuits at DePaul University</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324651">Tape: 9 Harold Pates recalls befriending Italian Americans at DePaul University</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324652">Tape: 9 Harold Pates describes his impressions of DePaul University</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324653">Tape: 9 Harold Pates describes his own and his brother's careers during the 1950s</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324654">Tape: 9 Harold Pates recalls his first position as a teacher in Chicago</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324655">Tape: 9 Harold Pates describes teaching at an all-girls school</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324656">Tape: 9 Harold Pates describes the lessons he learned early in his teaching career</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325100">Tape: 10 Harold Pates recalls his fellow teachers at Chicago's Fuller Elementary School</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325101">Tape: 10 Harold Pates recalls his concern over expulsions at Fuller Elementary School</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325102">Tape: 10 Harold Pates describes discrimination against black teachers in Chicago Public Schools</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325103">Tape: 10 Harold Pates recalls students from Chicago's Forrestville Elementary School</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325104">Tape: 10 Harold Pates recalls how he enjoyed teaching at Forrestville Elementary School</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325105">Tape: 10 Harold Pates recalls his decision to leave Forrestville Elementary School</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325106">Tape: 11 Harold Pates describes his disagreements with the principal of Forrestville Elementary School</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325107">Tape: 11 Harold Pates recalls becoming a teacher at Chicago's DuSable Upper Grade Center</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325108">Tape: 11 Harold Pates recalls tension between the students and teachers at DuSable Upper Grade Center</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325109">Tape: 11 Harold Pates describes a violent incident with a student at DuSable Upper Grade Center</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325110">Tape: 11 Harold Pates recalls the overcrowding of Chicago's black schools</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325111">Tape: 11 Harold Pates explains how the Willis Wagons controversy mobilized black leadership</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324669">Tape: 12 Slating of Harold Pates' interview, session 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324670">Tape: 12 Harold Pates recalls racial discrimination in Chicago's trade schools</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324671">Tape: 12 Harold Pates recalls biases in the hiring of principals in Chicago Public Schools</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324672">Tape: 12 Harold Pates describes working for Galeta Kaar at DuSable Upper Grade Center</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324673">Tape: 12 Harold Pates talks about Reverend Dr. C.T. Vivian</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324674">Tape: 12 Harold Pates recalls joining Loyola University Chicago's Upward Bound program</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324675">Tape: 12 Harold Pates describes his career ambitions during the late 1960s</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324676">Tape: 12 Harold Pates recalls Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.'s assassination</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324677">Tape: 13 Harold Pates describes tensions around integration in Chicago during the 1950s and 1960s</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324678">Tape: 13 Harold Pates describes the reaction of Chicago's black community to Dr. King's death</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324679">Tape: 13 Harold Pates recalls incidents that led to the Selma to Montgomery marches</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324680">Tape: 13 Harold Pates recalls his experience in the 1965 Selma to Montgomery march</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324681">Tape: 13 Harold Pates recalls becoming director of admissions at Chicago's Loop College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324682">Tape: 13 Harold Pates remembers black organizations in Chicago in the late 1960s</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324683">Tape: 14 Harold Pates describes the influence of the University of Chicago in Chicago's Woodlawn neighborhood</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324684">Tape: 14 Harold Pates recalls the rise of the Blackstone Rangers</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324685">Tape: 14 Harold Pates recalls mediating between gangs in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324686">Tape: 14 Harold Pates recalls the growth of African American studies programs</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324687">Tape: 14 Harold Pates recalls his involvement in the National Association for College Admission Counseling</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324688">Tape: 14 Harold Pates recalls the founding of Chicago's Communiversity</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324689">Tape: 14 Harold Pates recalls the rise of the Black Power movement in the late 1960s</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325112">Tape: 15 Harold Pates reflects on the importance of black institutions</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325113">Tape: 15 Harold Pates talks about the educational philosophy of Chicago's Communiversity</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325114">Tape: 15 Harold Pates describes problems with the Eurocentric version of history</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325115">Tape: 15 Harold Pates describes the structure of Chicago's Communiversity</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325116">Tape: 15 Harold Pates recalls a quarrel with Sol Tax at the University of Chicago</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/325117">Tape: 15 Harold Pates reflects upon the mission of the Communiversity</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324696">Tape: 16 Harold Pates describes his administrative tenure at Chicago's Loop College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324697">Tape: 16 Harold Pates recalls fellow faculty members at Chicago's Loop College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324698">Tape: 16 Harold Pates recalls becoming a dean of Chicago's Malcolm X College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324699">Tape: 16 Harold Pates recalls being appointed president of Chicago's Kennedy-King College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324700">Tape: 16 Harold Pates describes the politics of Kennedy-King College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324701">Tape: 16 Harold Pates recalls a negative news story about Kennedy-King College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324702">Tape: 16 Harold Pates recalls community engagement at Kennedy-King College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324703">Tape: 17 Harold Pates describes his policies as Kennedy-King College president</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324704">Tape: 17 Harold Pates describes programs he introduced at Kennedy-King College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324705">Tape: 17 Harold Pates talks about plans for a new facility for Kennedy-King College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324706">Tape: 17 Harold Pates describes life after his retirement from Kennedy-King College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324707">Tape: 17 Harold Pates talks about a controversy at Kennedy-King College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324708">Tape: 17 Harold Pates reflects upon his life</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324709">Tape: 18 Harold Pates describes his hopes and concerns for the African American community, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324710">Tape: 18 Harold Pates describes his hopes and concerns for the African American community, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324711">Tape: 18 Harold Pates considers contemporary leaders in the African American community</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324712">Tape: 18 Harold Pates reflects upon his legacy</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324713">Tape: 18 Harold Pates reflects upon his family life</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324714">Tape: 18 Harold Pates talks about the importance of rejecting materialism</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324715">Tape: 18 Harold Pates reflects upon the role of music in his life</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324716">Tape: 19 Harold Pates describes how he would like to be remembered</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/324717">Tape: 19 Harold Pates narrates his photographs</a>

DASession

1$2

DATape

4$16

DAStory

5$4

DATitle
Harold Pates describes being a paperboy in Chicago's white neighborhoods
Harold Pates recalls being appointed president of Chicago's Kennedy-King College
Transcript
I remember the first time I ever got afraid of a policeman. I told you I was twelve years old, I was tall. I started delivering papers in the white neighborhood; the paper branch was in the alley between Cottage Grove [Avenue] and Drexel [Avenue]. We would, I would go from 46th [Street] and Evans [Avenue], down 47th Street into this alley. There was a drugstore on the corner of 47th and Cottage Grove, it was called Orenstein's [ph.], there was also a newspaper stand right in front of it. One day I had my paper bag, 4:30 in the morning, I'm going to the paper branch. I walk down 47th Street, a white woman was coming in front of me, she saw me and ran across to the south side of 47th Street. It was a policeman standing at the newsstand, and this is one of these pivotal experiences too. I saw this lady, I knew that this lady was afraid of me, it was very clear, she went across the street and walked to the newsstand. There was a policeman at the newsstand, and I saw her doing like this, the policeman took out after me running. And I saw that, I started to run but I didn't because you know how white policemen dealt with black people at that time was no myth. I mean it was very real, I started to run but I didn't, I continued to walk, and I tried to act like I didn't know that he was coming behind me. He came up to me, right when I got in front of the Vee show, he pulled his gun out, put it up to my head and he said, "What are you doing over here?" He said, "Turn around," where my back would be to him, he put the gun up against my head, and he said, "What are you doing over here?" And I went to turn around to talk to him; he said, "If you turn around, I'll blow your head off." So I just stood there, but I said, "You see this paper bag, I'm about to go to the paper branch," but it occurred to me I can't see this man's face. If he killed me nobody will know who he is, but I wouldn't have been able to tell it anyway, you know. So I'm standing there and he's--then he cocked the gun and I thought, Crowe [Larry Crowe], I really thought I was gone then, as a young boy you know. So finally I said, "See the paper bag, see the paper bag, I'm going right back here, the paper branch is right here." So then he, I guess he took the latch off the gun and then he turned around and went on away. And there was a florist shop and when I got back in the paper branch, I thought about that because I never told any of the fellows. See back at that time, there was only one white boy working in the branch, his name was Tommy North, N-O-R-T-H, and he lived in the white community. All the rest of us who delivered papers in the white community were black. My brother [Henry Pates] delivered the papers over in five hotels which are now, which have--many of them have been replaced by 50th on the Lake [50th on the Lake Motel, Chicago, Illinois]. There was also an [U.S.] Army barracks over there that was called the [U.S.] Fifth Army, now that's important. Because in the '60s [1960s], the Fifth Army came out in the '60s [1960s] after Martin Luther King [Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.] was killed and posted a .50 caliber machine gun right there on--this is what I saw with my eyes. Right there on Stony Island [Avenue] and 63rd Street, I guess they decided they were gonna shoot down 63rd Street. Because young people were setting 63rd Street on fire, you understand? And they didn't know what to do, so the Army--I came out that night to see, but I was, you know. This is not when I was young; this is when Martin Luther King got killed.$My presidency, I think I became president either in '86 [1986] or '87 [1987], I don't remember the exact date. And that was a very interesting experience, the presidency of Kennedy-King [Kennedy-King College, Chicago, Illinois] because my orientation for the presidency was to make sure that the pres- that the school reflected of the community and its values. And that it took the community to a higher level with respect to the offerings and with respect to, to--it operating as a resource for community development.$$Before I get, I just want to ask you did you, were you surprised when you became, when you were appointed, I mean did, you went after the job I'm sure. But, but were you, I mean how, how was the lay of the land? I mean were you assured of (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) Well--$$--of being, of becoming the president at that time? Did you have, was it a done deal or what?$$Well you know no, it wasn't a done deal. It was very interesting because you see there was, within the college, the faculty council had decided on another person. I'm coming in out of the community with a community support, but also with the, with the support of the student government, who was both a part of the school and a part of the community at the same time. Well, my coming into the presidency, when the selection committee, it just so happens that members of the selection committee, the president of the selection committee--now this just so happens, the president, the chairman of the selection committee was a fellow named Mayo [ph.]; I can't remember his first name, simply because we were in third grade together in elementary school [Forrestville Elementary School, Chicago, Illinois], and when he discovered that they were searching and that they were looking at me as the president, he came to see me. He said, "[HistoryMaker] Harold Pates," he said, "do you realize that, do you realize how far we go back?" And I begin to talk, I said, "Look, I remember when we were in elementary school." We started talking about--. He says, "With your credentials," because everybody knew me in the City of Chicago [Illinois], you know, "you got to be the president over here." He says, "You got to be the president." Well, I don't know what went on in the selection committee, but the student government chairman came out one day and told me while I was in the counseling office he says, "Now Dr. Pates are you ready to be president?" I said, "Oh?" He said, "Are you ready?" I said, "Of course," and that's the way that happened.

Rafael Cortada

Rafael Leon Cortada, Ph.D, was born on February 12, 1934, in New York City. His mother was a seamstress and his father was a postal worker. He attended Public Schools 99 and 39 until his family moved and enrolled him in a Catholic school. In 1951, Cortada received his high school diploma from St. Francis Xavier Military School in New York.

Shortly after earning his bachelor’s of arts degree in philosophy from Fordham University in 1955, he was drafted into the army and stationed in Korea. In 1958, he received his master’s degree in secondary education from Columbia University. He went on to further his education earning his Ph.D from Fordham in Latin American and modern European history in 1967.

Cortada taught high school history from 1957-1964 at New Rochelle High School in New York while working on his Ph.D. From 1964 to 1966, he taught Latin American history at the University of Dayton in Ohio. He then went on to work as a Foreign Service officer in the State Department from 1966 to 1969. From 1969 until 1974, Cortada taught at a number of colleges including Federal City College in Washington, D.C., Smith College in Massachusetts, Howard University, Medgar Evers College and Hostos Community College, both in New York.

In 1974, Cortada wrote and published his first and only book, Black Studies, An Urban Comparative Curriculum, and received his first job as a college president. From 1974 to 1977, Cortada served as president of Metropolitan Community College in Minneapolis, Minnesota. He then moved back East and accepted the presidency at Community College of Baltimore, where he served from 1977-1982. From 1982 until 1987, he served as president of El Camino College in Torrance, California. In 1987, he was appointed president of the University of the District of Columbia and served in that post until 1990, when he was named president of Wayne County Community College in Detroit, Michigan. From 1994-1999, Cortada was president of Central Ohio Technical College in Newark, Ohio. From 1999 until his retirement in 2001, Cortada taught history education at Ohio State University at Newark.

Cortada passed away on April 11, 2017 at age 83.

Accession Number

A2004.079

Sex

Male

Interview Date

6/15/2004

Last Name

Cortada

Maker Category
Middle Name

L.

Occupation
Organizations
Schools

P.S. 99, Dimitrious Myers School

P.S. 39

St. Anthony School

St. Francis Xavier High School

Fordham University

Columbia University

Harvard University

St. Francis Xavier Military School

Xavier High School

First Name

Rafael

Birth City, State, Country

New York

HM ID

COR02

Favorite Season

Spring

State

New York

Favorite Vacation Destination

Hilton Head, South Carolina

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

District of Columbia

Interview Description
Birth Date

2/12/1934

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Washington

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Beans, Rice

Death Date

4/11/2017

Short Description

College president Rafael Cortada (1934 - 2017 ) has served as president of several community colleges, including the Metropolitan Community College in Minneapolis, Community College of Baltimore, El Camino College, University of the District of Columbia, and Wayne County Community College.

Employment

New Rochelle High School (New York)

City University of New York, Bronx Community College

University of Dayton

Department of State

Howard University

Federal City College

Smith College, Northampton, MA

City University of New York, Medgar Evers College

City University of New York, Hostos Community College

Metropolitan Community College, Minneapolis

Community College of Baltimore

Pepperdine University, Los Angeles

El Camino College

University of the District of Columbia

American Association of State Colleges and Universities, D.C.

Wayne County Community College, Detroit

Ohio State University, Newark

Central Ohio Technical College

Ohio State University

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
270,0:1638,48:2151,60:3633,97:4089,106:4317,111:4716,121:5058,126:5286,131:5970,145:6882,175:11088,206:11412,211:11817,217:14247,255:18778,290:19401,298:20914,318:21270,325:21715,331:25008,388:27180,406:27495,412:27873,419:28314,427:28818,437:29133,443:30393,476:31653,500:32598,522:33417,540:34992,588:35370,597:36441,615:37134,653:37764,666:38079,672:42380,693:44123,724:47194,770:49352,805:50846,828:51759,848:52257,857:53751,885:58635,896:61105,943:61885,959:62145,964:63705,994:64420,1014:64680,1019:66305,1055:69340,1075:69860,1084:70315,1093:71940,1115:73435,1155:73695,1160:74280,1172:74800,1177:75255,1189:77075,1226:77335,1231:79025,1263:79545,1273:80065,1294:83822,1306:84794,1336:85280,1343:85766,1350:92196,1376:92500,1381:97972,1472:98428,1480:99644,1504:107122,1559:107826,1571:108722,1589:109426,1606:111034,1619:111400,1627:111705,1634:112376,1646:113291,1668:116475,1703:117375,1718:117975,1727:119025,1745:119400,1751:119700,1756:120075,1762:120450,1768:121500,1789:123675,1832:124275,1848:124575,1853:126825,1898:127950,1914:132332,1927:132556,1932:133116,1945:133564,1954:133844,1960:134180,1967:135356,1994:135748,2003:143610,2128:145690,2176:146170,2183:148170,2219:148650,2229:149210,2237:149930,2249:150890,2262:151610,2278:151930,2283:153930,2317:158770,2333:159106,2338:160198,2354:161206,2370:161878,2379:163810,2413:164482,2423:166246,2461:166582,2467:166918,2472:168010,2487:168346,2492:170446,2528:172966,2561:174814,2594:175402,2602:177082,2622:181330,2635:181774,2642:182144,2648:182884,2661:183772,2678:184290,2686:185178,2706:185548,2712:186954,2740:191126,2780:191707,2789:192039,2794:194031,2820:194529,2830:195193,2840:195608,2846:196106,2854:196687,2863:199036,2877$0,0:162,9:729,17:3590,53:3846,58:5062,81:5446,88:6086,102:7942,139:8326,145:9222,164:9670,172:10750,177:11176,184:11460,189:13732,219:14513,233:16359,267:16856,275:17140,280:18418,303:18773,311:20122,337:20619,345:20903,350:23033,392:23530,401:24027,409:24808,423:28512,446:28995,454:29547,464:30444,479:31548,498:31893,506:32169,511:32652,520:32928,525:33411,533:33756,539:34998,569:35274,574:35757,582:36102,588:36930,600:37275,607:37827,616:41718,645:42294,658:42726,665:43230,674:44598,699:46120,707:47100,728:47870,741:48570,753:48850,758:51020,796:52000,812:52910,833:55010,881:60397,948:61156,960:62122,976:62605,985:62950,991:63502,1001:64606,1023:65296,1037:66538,1058:67090,1067:67435,1073:67711,1078:68332,1088:71450,1100:71770,1105:72250,1112:73610,1132:74090,1139:76650,1176:77290,1186:80007,1202:80421,1209:80697,1214:81249,1225:81870,1237:82698,1253:83043,1259:84285,1282:85182,1299:86010,1314:87804,1352:91850,1367:93250,1389:93880,1399:94230,1405:95630,1440:95910,1445:96680,1458:97520,1471:98080,1481:98640,1490:99200,1499:101700,1507:103013,1521:103934,1529:105446,1555:106094,1565:107318,1589:107750,1596:108182,1603:110760,1623:111462,1631:111930,1638:113022,1654:114426,1679:115830,1700:116610,1711:118404,1736:118872,1743:119340,1751:119964,1761:120744,1773:121212,1786:121602,1792:122226,1801:124800,1837:125580,1849:132772,1899:133360,1907:140652,1999:141244,2009:141688,2018:143908,2068:147756,2119:148274,2127:150864,2177:151382,2185:151900,2194:152270,2200:156310,2207:156675,2213:157113,2220:157989,2234:158500,2242:159522,2261:163245,2330:163975,2344:164778,2365:165143,2371:166092,2386:166384,2391:167479,2410:170728,2426:170993,2432:171841,2458:172053,2463:172318,2469:172954,2492:173325,2500:175320,2519:175775,2529:176360,2541:176815,2549:182066,2630:182722,2640:183706,2650:184034,2655:184854,2666:185182,2672:185838,2681:186412,2689:187068,2698:187478,2704:187888,2710:188626,2723:189200,2731:189528,2736:190348,2745:190676,2751:191004,2756:195115,2784:195795,2794:196305,2801:196645,2806:197155,2813:197835,2831:198260,2837:198940,2847:200300,2877:200640,2882:201745,2905:202510,2916:203020,2923:203445,2929:207028,2944:207332,2949:211924,3024:212644,3036:213148,3046:213508,3052:214660,3071:215596,3085:216244,3096:216820,3105:217396,3114:217900,3119:219052,3142:223158,3169:223468,3175:223964,3184:224832,3204:225080,3209:225576,3218:225886,3224:226196,3230:227622,3268:227932,3274:228552,3285:229668,3306:230226,3316:230660,3325:233760,3387:238072,3419:238328,3428:238584,3433:238840,3438:239224,3447:239928,3462:240888,3485:241400,3494:241848,3502:243704,3539:244152,3548:245880,3600:246328,3608:247416,3628:248056,3639:248696,3653:249272,3663:249592,3669:250168,3679:251256,3700:256484,3744:258332,3795:259388,3819:260180,3836:260576,3844:263170,3852:263470,3858:263890,3866:264310,3876:264730,3885:265330,3897:265810,3907:266110,3913:266590,3922:267070,3931:267490,3939:268210,3958:268570,3965:269110,3976:269650,3986:270010,3993:270490,4007:271390,4024:271810,4032:273970,4081:279518,4137:280454,4152:280886,4166:281174,4171:281966,4183:284494,4217:285226,4230:285958,4245:286324,4252:286690,4259:287117,4270:287544,4278:287971,4287:290886,4320:291174,4325:291894,4336:292398,4344:292758,4354:293262,4363:294414,4385:294918,4391:295278,4397:295854,4406:297510,4432:298158,4443:298446,4448:299238,4456:299814,4465:300318,4476:300894,4485:301542,4497:309338,4598:309786,4607:310298,4617:310618,4623:311066,4632:313306,4678:313626,4683:317041,4694:317383,4705:317839,4714:318865,4756:320461,4789:320860,4800:323350,4816:323777,4825:324387,4836:325607,4872:325912,4878:326156,4883:327132,4903:327437,4909:328352,4926:328596,4939:328840,4944:329389,4956:329999,4970:331097,4997:331402,5003:331951,5015:332500,5027:333232,5041:333476,5046:338185,5068:339875,5112:340200,5118:341045,5134:341630,5145:342345,5161:342800,5169:346245,5246:347480,5269:349235,5312:352850,5324:358258,5390:358735,5404:360059,5434
DAStories

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5740">Tape: 1 Slating of Rafael Cortada interview</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5741">Tape: 1 Rafael Cortada's favorites</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5742">Tape: 1 Rafael Cortada recalls his mother's background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5743">Tape: 1 Rafael Cortada describes his father's background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5744">Tape: 1 Rafael Cortada remembers his grandparents</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5745">Tape: 1 Rafael Cortada shares memories from his family life</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5746">Tape: 1 Rafael Cortada remembers his childhood environs, Bronx, New York</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5747">Tape: 1 Rafael Cortada recounts his early school life</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5748">Tape: 1 Rafael Cortada recounts his high school years</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5749">Tape: 1 Rafael Cortada describes his college pursuits, part 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5750">Tape: 2 Rafael Cortada describes his college pursuits, part 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5751">Tape: 2 Rafael Cortada recounts his time in the U.S. military</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5752">Tape: 2 Rafael Cortada discusses his pursuit of graduate studies in education, Columbia University</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5753">Tape: 2 Rafael Cortada evaluates his early career in secondary education</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5754">Tape: 2 Rafael Cortada describes his experiences teaching at the college-level</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5755">Tape: 2 Rafael Cortada details his employment with the U.S. State Department</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5756">Tape: 2 Rafael Cortada discusses his career teaching black studies, 1960s</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5757">Tape: 2 Rafael Cortada recounts his presidency at Metropolitan Community College, Minneapolis, Minnesota</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5758">Tape: 3 Rafael Cortada discusses his book, 'Black Studies: An Urban and Comparative Curriculum'</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5759">Tape: 3 Rafael Cortada recalls his posts at two community colleges</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5760">Tape: 3 Rafael Cortada reflects on his post at the University of the District of Columbia, Washington, D.C.</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5761">Tape: 3 Rafael Cortada shares thoughts on today's students</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5762">Tape: 3 Rafael Cortada reflects on the state of historically black colleges and universities</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5763">Tape: 3 Rafael Cortada discusses the significance of history</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5764">Tape: 3 Rafael Cortada reflects on the course of his career</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5765">Tape: 3 Rafael Cortada evaluates the costs of higher education</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5766">Tape: 3 Rafael Cortada evaluates affirmative action in higher education</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5767">Tape: 4 Rafael Cortada expresses his hopes for the African American community</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5768">Tape: 4 Rafael Cortada reflects on challenges in his career</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5769">Tape: 4 Rafael Cortada considers the impact of minorities in higher education</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5770">Tape: 4 Rafael Cortada discusses African American/Hispanic relations</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5771">Tape: 4 Rafael Cortada discusses his political involvement in Detroit, Michigan</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5772">Tape: 4 Rafael Cortada reviews his collegiate appointments in Ohio</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/5773">Tape: 4 Rafael Cortada reflects on his experiences in the classroom</a>

DASession

1$1

DATape

1$2

DAStory

7$7

DATitle
Rafael Cortada remembers his childhood environs, Bronx, New York
Rafael Cortada discusses his career teaching black studies, 1960s
Transcript
What can you tell us about--do you remember the name of the street that you lived on and can you describe your block and what your community was like?$$Oh, I remember all the streets. Prospect Avenue is a very large boulevard in the Bronx. And it was a large, oh, maybe seventy-five to a hundred apartment buildings with a large courtyard in the middle. And there was an elevator, and basically, we had three family members living in three different apartments, one on the first floor, one on the third, we were on the fifth. And I had keys to all the different apartments. So I was really a latchkey kid. My grandmother [Clara Hernendez Bernier] lived on the third floor with one of my aunts. And basically, I moved through the apartments. One aunt was in show business, so she was in and out of town. The aunt on the first floor had two sons, my cousins. And they were fun guys.$$And what was the community like? What was--?$$The community, as I look back now, I realize--I had no sense of poverty at that point, but it was hard-working poor people.$$And do you remember like any particular stores and that kind of thing?$$I remember the 845 Club which I was told never to go near, don't even walk by it. In the days before drugs, a raunchy bar was about the worst you had in the community. Otherwise, you had all of the normal retail stores (dog barking).$$We were talking about your block in your community.$$Yes.$$Well, let me ask you this, Dr. Cortada, tell me what sights, sounds and smells remind you of growing up?$$Prospect Avenue is a large urban boulevard, but it ended in Crotona Park. And I grew up with a Great Dane, Duchess. So we had a Great Dane in this apartment. But Duchess was my constant companion, and we would walk about eight blocks up to Crotona Park, and it was there that I'd meet other boys. And we'd play ball. And Duchess would normally sit on the bench or by the bench and at some point in the game, it would become irresistible to her to get into the game, and she'd run and get the ball, slobber all over it (laughter). But basically, I grew up accompanied by that dog, and through Prospect Avenue, again, you had all the retail stores. So you had Victor's at the corner, a grocery store, or a bodega as it became. It was very multicultural. You had basically black American, West Indians and the beginnings of a Hispanic community. And you still had the Irish and some Italians in the area. So it was very, very bicultural and very mixed.$$And what sights, sounds and smells remind you--any smells in particular?$$The smells from the grocery stores, the Italian sausage, the unique smell that you get from some of the Spanish food, the rice, the beans that they would sell in big barrels and so on.$$What about sounds?$$Traffic, very urban, very accustomed to that. In fact, too quiet kind of makes me uncomfortable.$Were you missing teaching at all?$$Well, I was doing some teaching. I taught at Howard University in Caribbean Studies while I was in the State Department. And I enjoyed that course very much. And in 1968, they were opening a new school in Washington, D.C. called Federal City College. So just as a lark, I floated an application to Federal City College and lo and behold I was hired. I became a charter member of the faculty.$$And were you excited about the opportunity of teaching full time again?$$Very excited, very excited about teaching in Washington, D.C., very excited about teaching an adult, minority population, and very excited also about a school that had aspirations to provide a quality education. A lot of idealism was involved at that point.$$And what was it like teaching students in the late '60s [1960s] in Washington, D.C.?$$You're very conflicted. You find the Civil Rights Movements had created a lot of unreasonable, unrealistic expectations in terms of black power and where education could take you. It also created quite a conflict about what education should be. Many people felt that education should really consist of total immersion in one's own blackness. And having seen what I had seen in the army and in the State Department, I believed people had to be immersed in an effort to be competent. So there was quite a bit of conflict involved. I supported black studies on the one hand, but I was also considered a conservative because I believed language skills, computational skills, multilingual skills to be extremely important, and language skills beyond Swahili. So we had bitter, bloody faculty battles about why a black person should study Arabic, Chinese or Russian, when Swahili is really what we should be doing.$$And when did you start becoming involved in, or start developing an interest in black studies?$$At that time. In my dissertation studies which was on the government of Spain under Joseph Bonaparte from 1808 to 1814, I ran into a couple of things. Number one, touched upon the Haitian revolution. Number two, the Spanish empirical holdings and the Spanish empire. And once you begin doing that, you begin running into the slave trade, which really colored these Spanish colonies. And you begin running into the multi-racial societies that the Spaniards are building. In fact, that's where I first encountered my last name in historical context. But I began looking into Spain, but I also began looking into this much broader picture. And to a degree, I think I was looking also at my own ethnicity as I looked at the Caribbean.$$And tell me a little bit about how receptive your colleagues were, students were to learning about black studies.$$At Federal City College, very, very accepting. The students--I can't say enough good things about them. That first class was able, exceptional. They were very serious, and they were willing to tackle tough jobs. And the more demanding you were, the better they performed. And in moving off into new discipline, which was quite controversial, and controversial within the faculty, students were willing to go in a new direction.$$And how do you think students back then benefited from learning about black studies?$$Well, I think they were the first generation which had--which had something that the generation now doesn't. I find today's students are losing a sense of who we are, how we got here and what came before. Those students really were looking at American history from a non-judgmental, but a factual point of view. And when you come right down to it, I taught America about America, as a tremendous experiment in which all these different people are trying to perfect this thing. And, yeah, things were very bad in the '60s [1960s], but look at where we started a hundred years earlier. So you have to look at black studies from that point of view. To a degree, I began teaching American History from the point of, you're looking at different ethnic groups. So I integrated black studies into my American History class, but I also began looking at how the Irish got here, how the Italians got here, Jews got here. It's a very interesting mosaic, and you're not focused on presidential elections, but you're really looking at America from the streets. And I began struggling with developing courses from that point of view.$$And how do you think white students would have benefited from having the same type of infusion into their American history and history courses?$$They found their grandparents in there too. You know, when we--when I taught, for example, about the draft riots in which Irish immigrants attacked blacks in New York City. The people who attacked those blacks were the grandparents, great grandparents of some of the kids sitting in class. And you can't be judgmental about it. You know, you don't hold these kids liable but why were these people rioting? Well, they'd just came out of starvation in Ireland, and here they are being sent off to fight a war over Africans that they didn't own. You know, the onus of fighting that war fell on Irish immigrants, who really had nothing against anybody when they got here. They wanted a job. So, no, I found students to be very receptive. One of the problems that I ran into, though, was with colleagues, because it's non-traditional.$$How did you overcome it?$$Probably never did. I just did it my way (laughter).

The Honorable Michael A. Battle

Dr. Michael A. Battle, the seventh president of the Interdenominational Theological Center (ITC), was born on July 28, 1950, in St. Louis, Missouri. He earned his B.A. degree from Trinity College, the master of divinity degree from Duke University and the doctor of ministry from Howard University. Other academic achievements include certifications from the Institute of Educational Management at Harvard University, the Executive Leadership Institute of Hampton University, and American Association of State Colleges and Universities' Millennium Leadership.

Before assuming the presidency of ITC, Battle was vice president of student affairs at Chicago State University. From 1996 to 1998, Dr. battle served as associate vice president of student affairs at Virginia State University, where, under his leadership, the institution's successful planning and assessment was widely acknowledged. From 1976 to 1996, Battle served as dean of the University Chapel at Hampton University, pastor to the Hampton University Memorial Church and executive secretary and treasurer of the Hampton University Ministers' Conference, the nation's largest interdenominational conference among African American clergy. His active participation in the conference helped increase the number of members, which successfully raised significant amounts of money toward the construction of the university's convocation center. Dr. Battle was also a teacher of philosophy and religion, and served for twenty years as a Chaplain in the United States Army Reserve.

Other notable achievements include serving as vice president of the American Committee on Africa form 1994 to 1998, as well as participating as an election observer for the first free election in South Africa. Awards and honors given to Battle include: the Leadership Award from the National Association of Student Affairs Professionals; the Martin Luther King Memorial Speakers Award from Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity; the Echoes of Excellence Award for Community Service; the National Conference of Christians and Jews Humanitarian Award; and was a Rockefeller Fund for the Theological Education Scholar from 1973 to 1976. Dr. Battle has also authored numerous books and publications on topics related to ecumenism and the Black church.

Battle is married to the former Linda Ann McClure, and is the father of three children: Michael Jr., Lisa Angela and Martin Luther. Michael is a graduate of Malcolm X College in Chicago, Lisa is a graduate of Elizabeth City State University and Central Michigan State University and is also a captain in the U.S. Army; and Martin is completing his undergraduate work in religious studies at Hampton University.

Accession Number

A2004.032

Sex

Male

Archival Photo 1
Interview Date

3/22/2004

Last Name

Battle

Marital Status

Married

Middle Name

A.

Organizations
Speakers Bureau

Yes

Archival Photo 2
Speakers Bureau Availability

Depends on Schedule

First Name

Michael

Birth City, State, Country

St. Louis

HM ID

BAT04

Speakers Bureau Preferred Audience

Any. Faith Development, Civil Rights, Community Involvement, Academic Leadership, Ecumenism Of Africa, African American Public Policy

Speakers Bureau Honorarium

Depends on audience - Negotiable

Favorite Season

Fall

Speaker Bureau Notes

Availability Specifics: Needs Three Month Notice
Preferred Audience: Any. Faith Development, Civil Rights, Community Involvement, Academic Leadership, Ecumenism Of Africa, African American Public Policy

State

Missouri

Favorite Vacation Destination

Gambia, Senegal

Favorite Quote

Such is life.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

District of Columbia

Interview Description
Birth Date

7/28/1950

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Washington

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Salmon, Pie (Key Lime)

Short Description

College president and theologian The Honorable Michael A. Battle (1950 - ) was the seventh president of Interdenominational Theological Center and was an administrator at Hampton University, Virginia State University and Chicago State University.

Employment

Chicago State University

Virginia State University

Hampton University

Hampton University Memorial Church

Hampton University Ministers' Conference

Interdenominational Theological Center

Favorite Color

Blue

DAStories

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3181">Tape: 1 Slating of Michael Battle interview</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3182">Tape: 1 Michael Battle's favorites</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3183">Tape: 1 Michael Battle recalls his family background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3184">Tape: 1 Michael Battle shares childhood memories</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3185">Tape: 1 Michael Battle remembers his mother and father</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3186">Tape: 1 Michael Battle talks about his own childhood and that of his father, who had to leave school in third grade</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3187">Tape: 2 Michael Battle contrasts his safe, nurturing childhood neighborhood in St. Louis with myths about "the ghetto"</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3188">Tape: 2 Michael Battle recalls his childhood church activities</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3189">Tape: 2 Michael Battle recounts his educational experiences</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3190">Tape: 2 Michael Battle remembers his high school years</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3191">Tape: 3 Michael Battle remembers influential teachers and the memorial scholarship that allowed him to attend college</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3192">Tape: 3 Michael Battle recalls his extracurricular activities and jobs as a teenager</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3193">Tape: 3 Michael Battle relates how he became involved in politics</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3194">Tape: 3 Michael Battle discusses the importance of reading in his upbringing</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3195">Tape: 3 Michael Battle recounts his involvment in coaching youth sports</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3196">Tape: 3 Michael Battle details his involvement in activism and teaching at a GED program while in college in Hartford, Connecticut</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3197">Tape: 3 Michael Battle remembers his college extracurricular activities</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3198">Tape: 3 Michael Battle outlines his graduate and postgraduate studies</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3199">Tape: 4 Michael Battle details his career path</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3200">Tape: 4 Michael Battle recalls memorable events from his career</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3201">Tape: 4 Michael Battle shares some of the challenges he's faced on the job</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3202">Tape: 4 Michael Battle offers his advice to young people</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3203">Tape: 4 Michael Battle reflects on his life</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3204">Tape: 4 Michael Battle discusses his family life</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/3205">Tape: 4 Michael Battle recalls how Groove Phi Groove helped make chapel a standing-room-only event at Hampton</a>

Robert Franklin

Robert Michael Franklin, Jr., is the presidential distinguished professor of social ethics at the Candler School of Theology at Emory University, and former president of the Interdenominational Theological Center.

Franklin was born February 22, 1954 in Chicago, Illinois. He graduated from Morehouse College in 1975 with a double major in political science and religion before going on to study at the University of Durham in England to pursue international studies. After traveling to North Africa and the Soviet Union, he enrolled in the Harvard Divinity School and received the master of divinity degree in 1978. He earned his doctorate degree in 1985 from the University of Chicago where his major fields of study included social ethics, psychology and African American religion.

Over the years, Franklin has worked as a scholar-theologian, educator, former seminary program administrator and foundation executive. He has served on the faculties of divinity and theology schools for the University of Chicago, Harvard University, Colgate-Rochester and Emory Universities. Before his presidency at the Interdenominational Theological Center, he served as a program officer at the Ford Foundation, where he was responsible for grants to African American churches that were engaged in secular social service delivery and for advising the president of the Foundation about future funding for religion and public life.

Franklin has written two books, Liberating Visions: Human Fulfillment and Social Justice in African American Thought and Another Day’s Journey: Black Churches Confronting the American Crisis. He has also co-authored a book with Don Browning and others entitled From Culture Wars to Common Ground: Religion and the American Family Debate. Franklin is also the author of an internet study guide on the congregational use of the DreamWorks SKG film, The Prince of Egypt.

Sought after by the media, Franklin has provided guest commentary on religion for CNN and National Public Radio. He also serves on numerous boards of directors, including the Center on Philanthropy, the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, the Congress of National Black Churches, the Georgia Humanities Council and Religion and Ethics News Weekly. He is also a member of the advisory board of the American Assembly and the Children’s Defense Fund’s Black Church and Community Crusade. Franklin has worked with the White House on numerous projects related to religion, race, public health and community development. He is also a member of the professional fraternity Sigma Pi Phi.

Franklin has been married to obstetrician and gynecologist Dr. Cheryl Goffney Franklin since 1986. They have three children.

Accession Number

A2004.038

Sex

Male

Interview Date

3/26/2004

Last Name

Franklin

Marital Status

Married

Middle Name

M.

Schools

Morgan Park High School

Esmond Elem School

Morehouse College

Harvard University

University of Chicago

First Name

Robert

Birth City, State, Country

Chicago

HM ID

FRA03

Favorite Season

Spring

State

Illinois

Favorite Vacation Destination

Caribbean, Negril, Jamaica

Favorite Quote

The World Is Equally Balanced Between Good And Evil And Your Next Act Will Tip The Scales.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Georgia

Interview Description
Birth Date

2/22/1954

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Atlanta

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Scallops (Grilled), Fruit Salad

Short Description

College president and theologian Robert Franklin (1954 - ) was the Presidential Distinguished Professor of Social Ethics at the Candler School of Theology at Emory University and former president of the Interdenominational Theological Center. Franklin also served as a program officer at the Ford Foundation.

Employment

NPR

Harvard University Divinity School

Colgate Rochester Crozer Divinity School

Emory University Candler School of Theology

Ford Foundation

Interdenominational Theological Center

Morehouse College

Favorite Color

Black, Red

Timing Pairs
0,0:4084,18:12070,131:13060,142:13690,150:14410,160:17857,213:18283,220:19348,243:19845,251:20484,262:21904,327:22614,341:26519,415:27087,424:29217,471:34126,498:34973,510:49141,785:49911,801:50373,809:59640,917:59980,922:61255,939:63125,965:65505,992:66185,1002:73520,1058:79272,1109:85770,1132:86517,1142:89505,1197:90501,1211:91248,1221:93655,1271:94070,1278:102990,1328:104656,1348:106224,1363:107890,1379:109164,1399:118725,1522:119490,1533:120255,1546:121955,1577:128585,1709:129180,1717:129520,1722:129945,1728:130880,1741:136234,1779:138281,1818:138993,1827:140239,1845:141752,1864:142642,1874:143443,1885:145550,1890:148044,1927:148560,1934:149850,1951:150624,1964:151054,1970:152602,1989:154838,2017:155526,2026:156386,2037:166348,2156:169692,2222:170680,2238:171212,2246:172580,2268:176152,2330:182904,2363:183334,2369:188400,2429:190090,2466:195490,2548$0,0:1662,16:2670,33:7110,81:9745,121:13825,219:17565,273:18160,281:22835,407:23260,413:25385,439:32362,480:32946,489:35136,525:35428,530:37107,559:37764,570:40465,606:40830,612:43823,665:44626,679:45356,690:48860,784:49298,830:50247,848:61500,934:62252,945:62910,953:64320,959:64696,972:65730,977:66482,987:67046,995:67892,1020:69208,1034:69584,1039:72592,1068:74566,1089:81240,1166:82180,1178:86366,1204:87398,1219:87742,1224:93246,1295:100607,1360:101377,1382:101993,1392:103410,1400:103705,1406:104059,1414:105593,1446:106242,1459:106832,1472:107186,1480:110150,1500:110830,1510:112275,1536:114315,1560:118310,1619:118650,1624:120350,1698:125824,1743:131944,1847:134104,1891:135472,1909:135832,1915:136120,1920:137488,1945:137992,1953:138496,1961:139792,1979:145610,2004:148570,2062:152090,2117:164400,2246:164888,2251:173638,2348:174014,2353:176270,2379:176834,2386:181300,2435:181715,2441:182130,2447:183790,2469:187656,2507:187992,2512:188412,2518:189336,2537:192864,2587:194964,2608:196392,2637:214845,2870:215695,2882:222410,2894:223868,2918:224354,2926:225893,2947:227999,2975:230753,3002:231239,3009:234074,3036:235613,3061:236099,3069:236423,3074:237071,3083:238286,3107:249042,3228:250638,3266:251550,3280:255578,3361:255958,3370:257782,3396:258466,3406:261948,3433:265980,3487:266316,3492:272334,3564:274098,3597:275190,3617:277962,3653:278298,3658:284620,3712:285117,3721:285685,3730:289874,3804:295570,3899
DAStories

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221940">Tape: 1 Slating of Robert Franklin's interview</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221941">Tape: 1 Robert Franklin lists his favorites</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221942">Tape: 1 Robert Franklin describes his mother's family background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221943">Tape: 1 Robert Franklin describes his father's family background</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221944">Tape: 1 Robert Franklin talks about his paternal and maternal grandparents</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221945">Tape: 1 Robert Franklin describes his earliest childhood memory</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221946">Tape: 1 Robert Franklin describes his childhood neighborhood on the South Side of Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221947">Tape: 1 Robert Franklin describes the sights, sounds and smells of his childhood in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221948">Tape: 1 Robert Franklin recalls his experiences at Esmond Elementary School in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221949">Tape: 1 Robert Franklin describes his religious upbringing</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221950">Tape: 2 Robert Franklin talks about his role models during his adolescence, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221951">Tape: 2 Robert Franklin talks about his role models during his adolescence, pt. 2</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221952">Tape: 2 Robert Franklin describes the community of Morgan Park High School in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221953">Tape: 2 Robert Franklin describes his activities and studies while at Morgan Park High School in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221954">Tape: 2 Robert Franklin talks about influential teachers at Morgan Park High School in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221955">Tape: 2 Robert Franklin describes his church community during his high school years</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221956">Tape: 2 Robert Franklin describes his impressions of the Civil Rights Movement during his high school years</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221957">Tape: 3 Robert Franklin talks about his interest in attending Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221958">Tape: 3 Robert Franklin recalls being expelled from Morgan Park High School in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221959">Tape: 3 Robert Franklin talks about his decision to return to Morgan Park High School in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221960">Tape: 3 Robert Franklin recalls returning to Morgan Park High School in Chicago, Illinois after his initial expulsion</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221961">Tape: 3 Robert Franklin recalls being fired from his job at a grocery store</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221962">Tape: 3 Robert Franklin talks about his views on activism during his senior year at Morgan Park High School in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221963">Tape: 3 Robert Franklin describes his parents' educational backgrounds</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221964">Tape: 4 Robert Franklin recalls travelling to Atlanta, Georgia to enroll at Morehouse College</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221965">Tape: 4 Robert Franklin recalls his freshman year at Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221966">Tape: 4 Robert Franklin talks about his extracurricular activities at Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221967">Tape: 4 Robert Franklin talks about studying abroad at Durham University in England</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221968">Tape: 4 Robert Franklin talks about traveling in Europe and North Africa during college</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221969">Tape: 4 Robert Franklin talks about his impressions of Moroccan culture during his college travels</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221970">Tape: 4 Robert Franklin talks about how his international travels changed his outlook on American politics and journalism</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221971">Tape: 4 Robert Franklin describes how his academic interests shifted from political science to theology</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221972">Tape: 5 Robert Franklin remembers his search for a graduate program in divinity</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221973">Tape: 5 Robert Franklin describes his experiences at Harvard Divinity School in Cambridge, Massachusetts</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221974">Tape: 5 Robert Franklin recalls his experiences pursuing a Ph.D. degree at the University of Chicago in Chicago, Illinois</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221975">Tape: 5 Robert Franklin talks about the beginning of his career as a professor of religion</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221976">Tape: 5 Robert Franklin talks about serving on the faculty of the Candler School of Theology at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221977">Tape: 5 Robert Franklin talks about joining the Interdenominational Theological Center as its president</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221978">Tape: 5 Robert Franklin describes his travels while on sabbatical from the Interdenominational Theological Center</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221979">Tape: 6 Robert Franklin shares his thoughts on the relationship between church and state</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221980">Tape: 6 Robert Franklin talks about the present situation for black churches</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221981">Tape: 6 Robert Franklin talks about the film 'The Passion of the Christ'</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221982">Tape: 6 Robert Franklin describes his hopes and concerns for the African American community</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221983">Tape: 6 Robert Franklin talks about his views on gay marriage</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221984">Tape: 6 Robert Franklin describes his plans for the future</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221985">Tape: 6 Robert Franklin describes how he wants to be remembered</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221986">Tape: 6 Robert Franklin reflects on his father's feelings about his career</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221987">Tape: 6 Robert Franklin describes working as a commentator for National Public Radio</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221988">Tape: 6 Robert Franklin talks about the future of African American churches</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221989">Tape: 7 Robert Franklin reflects on the legacy of Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221990">Tape: 7 Robert Franklin talks about the modern trend toward megachurches in Christianity</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/221991">Tape: 7 Robert Franklin narrates his photographs</a>

DASession

1$1

DATape

5$2

DAStory

5$7

DATitle
Robert Franklin talks about serving on the faculty of the Candler School of Theology at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia
Robert Franklin describes his impressions of the Civil Rights Movement during his high school years
Transcript
Well, 1988 rolled around, and I was a guest speaker here at Emory University [Atlanta, Georgia] for the Black History Month chapel program at Candler School of Theology [Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia], and I talked about the black church studies program at Colgate Rochester [Crozer Divinity School, Rochester, New York], which was the first of its kind to have in a seminary, predominantly white seminary, an academic program on the black church that looked at its history, its theology, its distinctive styles of worship, music, and preaching and its ethics and there's a role that it played in the Civil Rights Movement. I hadn't known that you could actually teach academic courses in that area and so they were, the students at Emory were excited. Why don't we have such a program? We're here in Atlanta [Georgia] where [Reverend] Dr. [Martin Luther] King [Jr.] lived, and so they invited me to come and help establish such a program. So I joined the faculty at Emory's Candler School of Theology in the fall of 1989, and helped to set up that program. Had a good experience there, we moved to Atlanta and I had this wonderful opportunity of getting to know many of the pastors and religious and political leaders of Atlanta that I've read about and known from a distance, and was happily in the Emory University community for a few years, when my research on why black men leave the church came to public visibility; in fact, there was an article in the Atlanta Journal [Atlanta Journal-Constitution] that focused on some of that research. Someone at the Ford Foundation [New York, New York] saw the article and called me and asked if I would consider becoming a consultant, 'cause they were working with black churches and clergy, given the importance of those churches, and helping to guide African American communities. The question was could clergy be trained to help deliver what might be called secular social services, so the church has a place where after-school public health, after-school violence prevention programs, where economic literacy could be taught where greater voter participation could be encouraged, so these were interests of the Ford Foundation, and they were really wanting to experiment with working with black clergy and churches in that area; so, they invited me. You know, I'm an emerging low-level expert on the black church at that point, having been at Colgate Rochester, and ultimately they persuaded me to join full time, so I left Emory and worked at the Ford Foundation as a program officer.$In my own study time, I began to read more and I was really being intellectually stimulated by, I recall, I mean this is Chicago [Illinois] in the late '60s [1960s] now, and so there is the [1968] Democratic [National] Convention in '68 [1968] and Sly and the Family Stone concert downtown. I begged my parents [Lee McCann Franklin and Robert Franklin, Sr.], can I go down? No, no you can't go, given the chaos that was likely to ensue, which, and some did. But Chicago was an exciting place to be at that time, and so at home watching this on television, getting as close to it as we could, but to see Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, Huey [P.] Newton, all these people on the scene, the leaders of SDS [Students for a Democratic Society], and others, and then, of course, with Dr. King's [Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.] death in April of that year, '68 [1968] and Bobby Kennedy [Senator Robert F. Kennedy] in June. It was, that was a turning point year for me, more young men went to Vietnam [Vietnam War] in that year, or more died in 1968, than any other year of our fifteen, eighteen year engagement in Southeast Asia, and beginning to sort of see the remnants of young men that I knew who were returning from Vietnam, including a couple of cousins, my uncle, my father's youngest brother who also used to make those journeys from Mississippi to Detroit [Michigan] to visit his mother, would stop in Chicago to see my dad and a few brothers and sisters that were in Chicago, and he was killed in Vietnam, and this was the youngest brother so, in some sense, he was closest in age to me as I'm emerging in high school [Morgan Park High School, Chicago, Illinois]. And that had a real impact on war and the meaning of war and the finality of war and death and, this young guy, fun-loving, handsome young brother, who wasn't bothering anybody. He got on a plane one day and was taken to Asia and never came home. There was a whole painful mystery around, even, his remains because we had a funeral in which there was a closed coffin and we weren't sure it was him. In fact, half of the family insisted that it was not when they did insist that the remains be displayed to the family. So, it was kind of traumatizing never to have real closure on young Willie Franklin [ph.]. So, that was a part of my growing awareness that behind this little world I inhabited, Morgan Park [Chicago, Illinois], South Side of Chicago, these great leaders like King and Kennedy and Fred Hampton, and others, were being murdered, that the police no longer seemed to be just this efficient bureaucratic Chicago operation, but seemed to be, themselves, a kind of criminal class and the more ominous period in my own coming of age and the reading of literature and James Baldwin and Ralph Ellison's 'Invisible Man,' and findings language to name that sense of alienation and despair and anger. And then, I guess the other part of this was the college decision because I wouldn't graduate until 1971, but I recall watching the death and the funeral of Dr. King, and much of that memorial service occurred on the Morehouse [College, Atlanta, Georgia] campus, watching that procession of leaders march on to the campus, watching [Dr.] Benjamin Mays. My father, it was the first time he sort of basically said, "Sit down, I want you to watch this." And afterward, he said, "I think you oughta consider Morehouse College," so, that was his first time being kind of directive in terms of saying this institution is one you ought to think about. Of course, I went back to school, you know, I began to ask around and ask Mrs. Carmichael [ph.], I wanted to learn more about Morehouse, and she provided some materials, and began to focus on people like [HistoryMaker] Julian Bond and [HistoryMaker] John Lewis, who were in Ebony magazine, and others who had attended HBCUs. And I thought, yeah, that's for me.

Paul Cooke

College president Dr. Paul Phillips Cooke was born on June 29, 1917 in New York City to Mamie Kathleen Phillips and Louis Philips Cooke, Sr. Cooke attended Garrison Elementary School and Garnet-Patterson Junior High School, both in Washington, D.C. He earned a diploma from Dunbar High School where he played on the baseball team and was a member of the Cadet Corps. During his senior year in 1933, his company was asked to perform at a wreath laying ceremony at Arlington National Cemetery.

From 1933 to 1937, Cooke attended Miner Teachers College in Washington, D.C. where he earned his B.S. degree. He continued his studies at New York University where he earned his M.A. degree in education. In 1943, Cooke earned another M.A. degree in English from the Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C., and completed his studies with an Ed.D. degree from Columbia University in 1947. While attending Columbia, Cooke was drafted and served in the U.S. Army between 1945 and 1946, after which he was honorably discharged with the rank of corporal. In 1951, Cooke worked to assist Washington D.C. area African American deaf children who were being sent out of the city for their education while white deaf students from the city were being taught at Kendall School. Cooke worked as a professor at the District of Columbia Teachers College for twenty-two years until 1966 when he was appointed president of the college and served in that post until 1974. In 1978, Cooke worked as a consultant for the World Peace Through Law Center, an organization that advocates for poor and disadvantaged people.

Cooke was a member of the World Veterans Federation, the American Veteran's Committee and served as an officer for the Catholic Interracial Council of Washington, D.C. In 1983, Paul Phillips Cooke Day was declared in Washington, D.C. by former Mayor Marion Barry and in 1986, the University of the District of Columbia awarded him with an honorary degree and also gave him the U.D.C. Legacy Award in 2004. The university also established the Paul Phillips Cooke Lecture Series and the Paul Phillips Cooke Scholarship Program. Cooke was also active in his fraternity, Kappa Alpha Psi, Inc., which awarded him the Laurel Wreath in 1995.

Cooke passed away on July 4, 2010.

Accession Number

A2004.009

Sex

Male

Interview Date

3/1/2004

Last Name

Cooke

Maker Category
Marital Status

Widower

Middle Name

Phillips

Occupation
Schools

Paul Laurence Dunbar High School

Garrison Elementary School

Shaw Middle School at Garnet-Patterson

University of the District of Columbia

New York University

Catholic University of America

Columbia University

First Name

Paul

Birth City, State, Country

New York

HM ID

COO04

Favorite Season

Fall

State

New York

Favorite Quote

That's A Pretty Good Question.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

District of Columbia

Interview Description
Birth Date

6/29/1917

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Washington

Country

USA

Favorite Food

Chateaubriand, Lobster

Death Date

7/4/2010

Short Description

College president Paul Cooke (1917 - 2010 ) was a former president of the District of Columbia Teachers College, a position he held from 1966 to 1974.

Employment

United States Postal Service

District of Columbia Teacher's College

World Peace Through Law Center

Beacon College

Timing Pairs
243,0:810,9:1134,14:2754,44:3564,58:4617,80:16340,376:63547,792:69109,864:69521,869:83190,1060:93588,1171:104720,1291:113366,1403:117630,1475:117958,1480:119352,1511:134973,1732:139801,1836:141008,1862:144780,1871$0,0:622,14:982,20:1702,31:1990,36:2350,42:7460,152:8180,162:9550,170:14360,239:15396,255:15914,267:16210,272:18390,281:24476,353:25172,363:33002,490:38186,593:43133,651:64110,899:64733,969:80060,1137:80410,1143:107394,1531:108290,1539:108850,1545:110082,1596:110530,1602:110978,1607:120260,1713:125732,1899:126720,1914:134952,1986:137780,2012:138550,2025:138858,2030:142708,2104:144787,2143:156880,2286:157440,2295:161840,2387:162480,2399:162960,2406:173000,2527:177080,2611:177640,2620:179800,2656:181160,2688:199108,2874:207800,2971:208135,2977:208671,2986:217004,3111:217332,3116:220038,3177:226070,3232:226540,3238:227950,3260:234680,3336:235024,3341:237776,3379:247901,3504:248306,3510:249940,3519:251045,3540:251725,3550:253935,3589:254275,3594:257640,3614:258938,3629:271048,3754:276860,3824
DAStories

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178478">Tape: 1 Slating of Paul Cooke's interview</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178479">Tape: 1 Paul Cooke lists his favorites</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178480">Tape: 1 Paul Cooke describes his maternal family history</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178481">Tape: 1 Paul Cooke talks about his maternal and paternal grandparents</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178482">Tape: 1 Paul Cooke describes his earliest childhood memories and his father's side of the family</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178483">Tape: 1 Paul Cooke names his sibling Louis Phillip Cooke, Jr.</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178484">Tape: 1 Paul Cooke describes the Washington, D.C. community in which he grew up</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178485">Tape: 1 Paul Cooke talks about his elementary school experiences in Washington, D.C. and New York</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178486">Tape: 1 Paul Cooke talks about his academic performance and aspirations as a young boy</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178487">Tape: 1 Paul Cooke talks about his religious upbringing</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178488">Tape: 1 Paul Cooke recalls his experiences at Garnet-Patterson Junior High School in Washington, D.C.</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/177174">Tape: 2 Paul Cooke talks about his experience at Dunbar High School in Washington, D.C.</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/177175">Tape: 2 Paul Cooke describes his trip to the World's Fair in Chicago, Illinois in 1934</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/177176">Tape: 2 Paul Cooke talks about teachers who influenced him at Dunbar High School in Washington, D.C.</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/177177">Tape: 2 Paul Cooke talks about his rationale for choosing to attend Miner Teachers College in Washington, D.C.</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/177178">Tape: 2 Paul Cooke describes his experiences at Miner Teachers College and Dunbar High School in Washington, D.C.</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/177179">Tape: 2 Paul Cooke talks about his educational trajectory in the 1940s after graduating from Miner Teachers College in Washington, D.C.</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/177180">Tape: 2 Paul Cooke talks about his experience in the U.S. Army between 1945 and 1946</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/177181">Tape: 2 Paul Cooke talks about meeting his wife in the 1930s</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/177182">Tape: 2 Paul Cooke describes his four children</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/177183">Tape: 2 Paul Cooke begins to describe his experiences as President of the District of Columbia Teacher's College in the 1960s and 1970s</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178400">Tape: 3 Paul Cooke talks about desegregation activities at Washington D.C.'s National Theater in the late 1940s</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178401">Tape: 3 Paul Cooke talks about his involvement in the 1952 court case, Miller v. Board of Education of District of Columbia</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178402">Tape: 3 Paul Cooke describes his and the American Veterans Committee's involvement in District of Columbia v. John R. Thompson Co., Inc. in 1953</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178403">Tape: 3 Paul Cooke describes his involvement in the Worldwide Veterans Foundation</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178404">Tape: 3 Paul Cooke describes Washington D.C.'s 1968 race riots</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178405">Tape: 3 Paul Cooke talks about working with Access to Law through World Peace Through Law</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178406">Tape: 3 Paul Cooke talks about his brief tenure at Beacon College in Washington, D.C.</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178407">Tape: 3 Paul Cooke describes contemplating a legal career and his activities after retirement</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178408">Tape: 3 Paul Cooke talks about his most important accomplishments</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178409">Tape: 3 Paul Cooke talks about the murder of his son and daughter-in-law by his grandson</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178410">Tape: 3 Paul Cooke reflects upon his legacy</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178411">Tape: 4 Paul Cooke narrates his photographs, pt. 1</a>

<a href="https://da.thehistorymakers.org/story/178412">Tape: 4 Paul Cooke narrates his photographs, pt. 2</a>

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$3

DAStory

7$2

DATitle
Paul Cooke talks about his experience in the U.S. Army between 1945 and 1946
Paul Cooke talks about his involvement in the 1952 court case, Miller v. Board of Education of District of Columbia
Transcript
What was your experience like in the [U.S.] Army and what years were you in the Army?$$Well, I was drafted. Mr. [President Franklin Delano] Roosevelt sent me this letter, now, so I was drafted in April of 1945. I was in the Sheppard's Air Force base in Wichita Falls, Texas. That's where I did my first training, and that's when he first told me--I first knew, by the way, that my eye sight was not good. I think the recruiter said, "Sergeant--I mean, Cooke, private, you can't be a pilot, you can't be a navigator, you can't be a barber there because of your vision is not good enough." Well, I said, "Well, how about administration?" And that's when I was told, "They don't have any color boys in that now." So that's how I ended up going to--from Sheppard Air Force Base to MacDill Field. So the engineer aviation unit training center, EARTC; something like that, at MacDill Field in Tampa, Florida. And that's where I stayed until I was discharged. That's where I was promoted, by the way, to Corporal Cooke, which I was glad to get at times, at that time. Incidentally, there's a story I always like to mention. I was in the--one of the World's Veterans Federation meeting, I think, it was in Croatia or it may have been Ljubljana, Slovenia. One of those former Yugoslavic Republics. And I said, "Mr. Chairman, now, you have over here the general from Nepal," who was there, "and the lieutenant general from Japan," he was there; "and you have the general from Pakistan," he was there. "But when you introduce me, sir, you introduce me as Corporal Cooke," and I got a big roar from everybody there 'cause there was a whole lot of other sergeants and corporals looking at all these generals, you see. We want to make sure that we were recognized like the generals were. So that's the story of being in one of these World Veterans Federation meetings.$Was that your first experience with civil disobedience [picketing the National Theater, Washington, D.C.]?$$Forty-eight [1948], yeah, I guess, that was among the first. Later was to come, 1951 was not civil disobedience, but going to the court again and this is the deaf children situation. Black deaf children were being sent to Overlea [Maryland] a suburb of Baltimore, Maryland. Whereas, the white deaf children were kept in the city, went to Kendall Green and part of that Gallaudet College [later, Gallaudet University, Washington, D.C.]. The American Veteran's Committee said, "This cannot be tolerated." We brought the parents of the deaf children into the American Veterans Committee clubhouse, said, "Can we serve you by taking the steps to end this practice of sending your children to Baltimore [Maryland]?" They all agreed to our being for a strong forum, I guess. And the Miller case [Miller v. Board of Education of District of Columbia, 1952] was filed eventually, because Louise Miller had her son in--was deaf. What we had to do, by the way, is to exhaust. Lawyers always tell you the administrators reminisce, which meant we had to go the [U.S.] Congress, we had to the superintendent of schools, we had to the commissioner of the District of Columbia [Washington, D.C.] and we went directly to Gallaudet itself, and each instance take these deaf children here and for one reason or another they wouldn't, so then we go to court. Judge David Pine immediately says, "You can't do that." The 1938 [U.S.] Supreme Court decision [Missouri ex rel. Gaines v. Canada, 1938] said, with respect to a man in Missouri who wanted get a law degree, but he wasn't going to be sent to University of Wisconsin [Law School, Madison, Wisconsin], or a University of Michigan [Law School, Ann Arbor, Michigan], or University of Minnesota [Law School, Minneapolis, Minnesota]. He had to be given that law degree in the State of Illinois--the State of Missouri, I mean. And so that lead the way for the judge in the deaf children case. Judge David Pine would say, "Can't send those children to Maryland. You got to educate them the same place you educate the white children." And so they were brought in. So that was another instance of the reverence and my participation, like the National Theater [Washington, D.C.]. Here this time, it's the veterans together to end the practice of racial exclusion. That was '51 [1951], the deaf children case.$$What do you remember? Do you remember any of those children?$$Well, I can remember, now, this little boy around the clubhouse, the ABC Clubhouse, with his grandmother, who was saying, got to help him. I can remember a man named Luke Richardson who was telling how his daughter suffered when it was very cold to have to come home on the bus at the end of the week. I remember those incidental aspects of the background or foundation for going to court to end the practices. Incidentally, when we got the black children back to Washington, D.C. in Kendall Green, the Gallaudet College, they segregated them. So we said, we're not going to have that segregation here, you're going to have these children in the same classrooms with the whites. Well, they had hired black teachers to teach the black children, and so we said--and then they fired the black teachers. It just shows the degree of the term today is racism. And so we got to go to work again, the veterans had to go to work again and say, no, you're growing to higher these black teachers right along teaching black and whites together, and we managed to get that done at Gallaudet. Race was a big factor going all the way back. By the way, the congress of the United States in 1905 had passed a law that would send these children to Maryland. So for a long time, that had been taking place.