Okay, so Roberta Flack, like she's a Howard [University, Washington, D.C.] graduate.$$That's right.$$As far as I--$$And she had gotten popular at a place called Mr. Henry's, it, it was in Washington [D.C.]. So it was Roberta Flack Day and that, at this time, I did take the, the job. My boy says, and, and at the time, I had got a different camera from a friend of mine who wasn't using a thirty-five millimeters, this is why I put the Rangefinder aside and I'm using this thirty-five millimeter whose, the lens was kind of loose and I end up fixing that. So this is my first thirty-five millimeter camera.$$So--$$Which was a Canon.$$The single lens reflex--$$Right. First time.$$--camera, okay.$$And so I'm shooting Roberta Flack, I didn't have a flash so, I'm shooting, you know, with natural light and it came out pretty good. And while we, I was doing Roberta Flack, there was a guy from her record company, Atlantic Records, that was, he was gonna give her a plaque or a gold record or something, and he says Roberta Flack has made a lot of money for a lot of people and that stuck with me, you know. And so after that, you know, I was into it, you know, I sort of was developing film. And from that point on, dealing with my man, Andre [Perry], who's my best friend, he's the music director, he's the one that everybody's bribing and giving all the goodies to, to play their records, and he was the first one to, because WHUR the radio station was brand new and they had a philosophy of three-hundred sixty degree of blackness. So that's when they played Jimi Hendrix, Dizzy Gillespie, Phyllis Hyman, they broke Al Jarreau, and a lot of people that ordinarily wouldn't have gotten played, "Slave Driver", I forgot who made that, the "Slave Driver" and Hugh Masekela.$$Yeah, yeah.$$You know, and all of those kind of guys, you know, they were playing. Herbie Hancock, you know, now this wasn't being played on other stations which were AM, and they were playing forty-fives, you know, more doo wop stuff the, you know.$$Right, the popular--$$Right, right at the time. (Unclear) (Simultaneous)$$--what they call urban contemporary.$$And, and even, even, even at the HUR [WHUR] they were playing The Chi-Lites, you know, which was they didn't play, you know, that much on, on the AM stations, they were playing other stuff, you know. And--$$So but at this, this junction now, I think we kind of, we went over it so fast, but did you have any formal doctrine training or anything for (unclear) (simultaneous)$$Not really.$$Okay.$$Okay. Let me tell you this. During the same period that I'm getting into photography, I go home, my brother [Robert Ogburn] is developing a roll of film, okay. And he really didn't explain it to me, I just saw him doing it. The next day, I come here my boy, his name is Frenchie [ph.], Glen French [ph.], who lived up the street from here on Lamont Street [Washington, D.C.], is developing a roll of film but he was more like a teacher, yeah, you put in the developer and you do this and you do that which really, you know, you have to be a scientist because now the chemicals are already made up for you. When [James] Van Der Zee and these old guys got into photography, Decora [Camera] and them, they'd have to go to the drug store and have to make their own, mix their own chemicals and then put 'em on a glass plate, you know, in the dark and all of that. So when I got into it, the chemicals was already made, the, the developer, the fixer and the stop bath, you know. So it was a lot easier, you know. So when I got the enlarger from the girl and so I set up my darkroom in the kitchen. The first night I went in there, television went off in Washington around twelve or one or o'clock during this period, this is early '70s [1970s] now, and I went in the dark room maybe five o'clock and I'm developing pictures and I'm printing pictures, I can even show you some of them, and when I came out my girl was asleep, television was off, and I'm saying wow, you know, this is nice 'cause I could go take a picture of Jesse Jackson and develop the film and print the picture and use some rubber cement and put it on some board and stick it on the wall, and that's what I started doing. And then I get a call from, okay this is at 1900 Lamont, then I wanted, I mean this is at 1600 16th Street, but I wanna become a, a record promoter, I mean a, a produce shows, me and my boys, we gonna produce shows, okay. So I put up the rent money and, and we had a, a three day concert at Cramton Auditorium over at Howard [University]. But what happened is you got like four or five guys, we putting on this show, but nobody's ever did a show before, but they knew how to set up the equipment and sound system but I was the one collecting the money for the tickets that we had spread out in different stores. So if I was knowledgeable of that kind of industry, I would have went back and said we're not selling any tickets, we're gonna have to change up real quick, we're gonna have to promote it a little different, we're gonna have to do something different 'cause this ain't really working, but I had never, I didn't know, you know. So we went broke and because of that, you know, I had started, I, I, a friend of mine from New York [New York] lived in this building, and I think I was getting a notice saying, hey, you know, you know, if you don't come to court on a certain day, you know, they gonna put you out or whatever, so I started moving. So a friend of mine said there's a vacancy in this building. So I told you I lived in the back where the slave, you know, the quarters, not the slave quarters, but the maids and the butlers lived--$$This is at--$$1600.$$Yeah.$$The Envoy.$$Okay. The Envoy.$$Okay. So when I come here, I go tell the landlord that I wanna move into this apartment. Well, what happened is my boy down stairs, he lives down stairs, that I grew up with in Brooklyn [New York], went to high school with, he lives here, and he said there's a vacancy in my building. So when I come over here, I meet the lady and she says well you have to go to their office. I go to the office at 1900 Lamont [Street], I wanna move in to 502. So when I saw this apartment man, it was all white and you looking out the windows and, and man I loved to have this place. So what happened is the landlord, the management company calls my girlfriend instead of calling the landlord where I was at, they called my apartment and she answered the phone and says, oh, yes he's a great tenant he, he pays his rent on time and so we both moved in here together, even had a little dog Pekingese dog, you know. And so I'm in graduate school now and I'm trying to get through graduate school, at the time she was in school, and then somehow she was not in school and the dog, and whenever you took a dog to the, to the, to the doctors it was like going to the regular doctor twenty dollars, fifty dollars, whatever. So she went home and came back kind of on the butterball side and I just say, you know, you need to get your own spot 'cause, you know, this ain't working out no more and, and so she end up going, going back to Puerto Rico and, and I'm in graduate school. So I set up my kitchen, I mean my darkroom back in that room there. And at this time I'm sort of rolling now, my first gig was Roberta Flack, next thing I'm doing, going to clubs because the, the, the pool that the record companies pulled from was people that was in School of Communications which Tony Brown was running at Howard, the School of Communications, and they also draw from the record stores, people that were like clerks in the record store knew about records and stuff so they would get pulled in the pool to become record promoters.$So Chancellor Williams, there was a, his book was published by Third World Press [Chicago, Illinois]?$$Right.$$Right. And there was a crisis around money at a certain point--$$Yep.$$--and you got a story about it, I think it's important to tell it because it's (simultaneous)--$$So what happened, you know, Chancellor wasn't getting his royalties and not, and it wasn't that he was (unclear) you know, was hard up for cash or anything because he taught at Howard [University, Washington, D.C.] twenty-seven years and I guess he got a good pension and whatever but, you know, he wanted his money from the Third World Press. So what happened was he got a lawyer in Chicago [Illinois] to deal with [HM] Haki [Madhubuti] but he found out that the lawyer knew Haki and sort of had to get somebody else. And eventually Haki had to go to the bank to get a loan to pay Chancellor, and the bank told him well, we'll only give you the loan if you keep publishing his book 'The Destruction of Black Civilization' which Haki would have been stupid if he didn't 'cause that was his best seller there at the time. But Haki was into [HM] Dr. Ben [Carson] and those, and John Henrik Clarke, they also wrote books, I don't know if he ever published any of their books, I can't understand why he didn't. But so Chancellor sort of got his lawyers and Haki went to the bank to, you know, 'cause it end up being like thirty either thirty-seven or thirty-nine grand [thousand dollars]. And a woman came from Chicago--$$This, Janet Sankey [ph.] who passed away last week actually.$$Really.$$Yeah.$$Well, I believe it might have been her. I got a picture of her, we can talk about that later.$$Mm-hmm.$$And her giving him the check, you know, pick a picture. And so he was sort of satisfied. I'm saying wow, thirty-seven thousand bucks [dollars]. Seven years though, so that was seven years, you know, so you divide seven into thirty something.$$(Unclear) I know I was at the press at the time and we were very depressed about it. I mean what, Haki's a great artist but not--$$Right. He was a poet basically. And, to be honest with you, the gallery that represented me here in Washington [D.C.] was in Georgetown [Washington, D.C.], started by a Norman Parish but Norman Parish was really an artist. And he opened up a gallery so people would, black people would have a place to exhibit because there wasn't many places for us, but maybe a college. But the, you know, the National [Gallery of Art, Washington, D.C.], I went to The National Gallery of Art, to try to have an exhibit. I went to the Corcoran [Gallery of Art, Washington, D.C.] to try to have an exhibit but, you know, they were saying well, you know, sort of like they told Mary Lou Jones [Lois Mailou Jones] when she graduated from Mass Amherst [University of Massachusetts Amherst, Amherst, Massachusetts] or one of those schools, and she wanted to teach up there, they told her like, you know, why don't you, you need to go teach your own people. And so she came and was teaching at Howard, you know. That's what they told her. She graduated, and I don't know what school it was Mary Lois Jones [ph.], you know.$$Yeah.$$You know who I'm talking about. So that was it. So but Chancellor taught at Howard twenty-seven years and his mentor was William Leo Hansberry. And like I said, they had to teach under the umbrella of Greek mythology. And so, I wish I had taken a course under him, I understand that. Now what happened is I got Chancellor's papers in these folders, nothing, no big deal, I just, you know, I, Chancellor would give 'em to me and I would put 'em in the folders. So two of my boys that came by here had had Chancellor as a teacher, and I showed them the folder and they said, man you better put that in a, it was about, you better organize this stuff man, this is Chancellor Williams and, you know. I felt the same way they did I just took it, you know, for granted. I take a lot for granted. I can show a picture of Bob Marley, wow, you shot Bob Marley. Well, yeah no big deal, you know, and, you know, you go through that 'cause, you say, there's fifty people backstage but there's thirty thousand out front and you're one of the few people that's backstage. So it's sort of like, you know, people sort of look up, you know, to you because you have access to those kind of people--$$Yeah. So now this--$$(Unclear) (simultaneous)$$--is something in you, you can't, as time goes by especially can't take these productions for granted, papers or photographs and--$$Right. And so I got Chancellor's original handwritings for 'The Destruction.' You know, not the whole book. Now, I even knew the girl that typed it. She became a lawyer.