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Audrey Lavinia Smaltz

Fashion show manager Audrey Lavinia Smaltz was born on June 2, 1937 in New York City. Growing up in the Harlem River Houses with neighbors such as Dr. Alvin Poussaint, Bob Moses and David Scott, Smaltz attended P.S. 46 and the Harriet Beecher Stowe Girls Junior High School. Accepted into New York City’s High School of Music and the Performing Arts, she took her first professional modeling job from baseball’s New York Giants. After graduating high school in 1955, Smaltz worked as a model and fashion commentator. An art major at the City College of New York, Smaltz also worked for Metropolitan Life Insurance and the Rueben H. Donnelly Corporation.

In 1962, Smaltz worked as a model and salesperson at Bloomingdale’s and she became an assistant fashion coordinator for the store in 1964. Hired by Lane Bryant Clothing in 1965, she worked as a model and buyer and also as a fashion coordinator. Moving to Chicago in 1969, Smaltz joined the Ebony Fashion Fair in 1970 as a commentator and fashion editor. In 1977, Smaltz organized her Ground Crew team, a backstage management group which has staffed many fashion shows including those by Vera Wang, Giorgio Armani, Betsey Johnson, Oscar de la Renta, Bill Blass, Alice Roi, Michael Kors, Luca Luca, Nanette Lepore, Tommy Hilfiger, Kenneth Cole and Ralph Rucci. Smaltz has also worked with corporations like Nike, Vogue, Saks Fifth Avenue, Macy’s, and J. Crew.

A contributing editor to Vogue, Mirabella and Mode magazines, Smaltz appears frequently on QVC and the Oprah Winfrey Show. She is a board member of the Black Fashion Museum, Dress for Success, the Gracie Mansion Conservancy and Fashion Group International.

Accession Number

A2005.060

Sex

Female

Interview Date

3/8/2005

Last Name

Smaltz

Maker Category
Marital Status

Divorced

Middle Name

Lavinia

Schools

City College of New York

New York University

Fiorello H. LaGuardia High School of Music & Art and Performing Arts

First Name

Audrey

Birth City, State, Country

New York

HM ID

SMA02

Favorite Season

Spring

State

New York

Favorite Vacation Destination

None

Favorite Quote

Divine Love Always Has Met And Always Will Meet Every Human Need.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

New York

Birth Date

6/2/1937

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

New York

Country

United States

Favorite Food

None

Short Description

Fashion show stage manager Audrey Lavinia Smaltz (1937 - ) is the founder and organizer of Ground Crew, a backstage management group which has staffed many fashion shows including those by Vera Wang, Giorgio Armani, Oscar de la Renta, Michael Kors, Kenneth Cole and Ralph Rucci. Smaltz has also worked with corporations like Nike, Vogue, and Saks Fifth Avenue.

Employment

The Ground Crew

Johnson Publishing Co.

Lane Bryant

Bloomingdales

Favorite Color

Yellow

Timing Pairs
0,0:696,30:4002,79:5829,103:10005,283:30415,636:38530,741:39720,757:40060,762:42185,795:57302,1040:58112,1128:98205,1636:99255,1706:99555,1711:100980,1743:117470,1978$0,0:11040,217:11520,223:14016,251:18414,277:21634,363:25958,435:26326,440:37447,562:40216,678:63003,971:64267,988:64583,993:64899,998:88591,1346:89242,1354:93085,1376:93450,1382:97465,1454:129925,1915:131200,2076:160122,2361:189590,2688
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Audrey Lavinia Smaltz's interview, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz describes the history of her family name

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Slating of Audrey Lavinia Smaltz's interview, pt. 2

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz describes the beginnings of her business, The Ground Crew

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Slating of Audrey Lavinia Smaltz's interview, pt. 3

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz describes her mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz describes her mother

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz describes meeting relatives during a visit to Hilton Head, South Carolina as an adult

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz describes her father's family history

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz describes her father's places of employment

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about her father and being born in Harlem, New York

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about her parents' wedding and honeymoon

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz recalls her earliest childhood memories of living in the Harlem River Houses

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz recalls childhood gifts

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz recalls the sounds, sights, and smells of her childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz recalls her childhood in Harlem, New York

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about growing up with SNCC leader Robert Parris Moses and others in Harlem, New York

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about attending P.S. 46 Elementary School

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about attending the High School of Music and Art in New York City

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz recalls her school teachers

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz describes the High School of Music & Arts, Devore's School of Charm and modeling

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about being a "Say Hey" kid for baseball player Willie Mays, Jr.

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about becoming a fashion show commentator

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about staying in New York City after graduating from high school

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about her family's move to Harlem's Washington Heights

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about attending City College of New York and working

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz recalls working as an advertising art director

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about her brief career as a stock broker at Bache & Company

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz recalls being hired at Bloomingdale's

Tape: 3 Story: 10 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz recalls being beauty pageant contestant

Tape: 3 Story: 11 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about being the second African American on Bloomingdale's training team

Tape: 3 Story: 12 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about becoming an assistant buyer at Bloomingdale's working with Doris Salinger

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz recalls employers underwriting her costs to attend the March on Washington and Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.'s funeral

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz recalls being discriminated against and arrested in Florida

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about Ebony Fashion Fair

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about working at Lane Bryant as a model, then buyer

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz describes being introduced to Dr. Stanley Hughes by model Dorothea Towles and marrying him

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about being hired by Johnson Publishing Company

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about working for Ebony Fashion Fair

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz recalls how she commented for Ebony Fashion Fair shows

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about leaving Ebony Fashion Fair and Johnson Publishing Company

Tape: 4 Story: 10 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz describes her role at Johnson Publishing Company

Tape: 4 Story: 11 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about starting her own business after leaving Johnson Publishing Company

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about working as a Fashion Fair consultant and starting The Ground Crew

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about the services The Ground Crew provides

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about lack of diversity in the modeling industry

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz declines to name her favorite models

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz describes her future plans for The Ground Crew

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz describes her hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz reflects upon her life

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz reflects upon her legacy

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about her mother's sense of style

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz recalls being hired by the grandson of Steve Kaplan, the man who hired her at Lane Bryant forty years before

Tape: 5 Story: 11 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz reflects upon how she would like to be remembered

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Audrey Lavinia Smaltz narrates her photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$4

DAStory

3$7

DATitle
Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about becoming a fashion show commentator
Audrey Lavinia Smaltz talks about working for Ebony Fashion Fair
Transcript
So that was that, led to my-- that was my first modeling assignment, and after that I didn't really do that much [as a model], you know. It was, there was not much of an outlet. You do fashion shows, that's what you would do, fashion shows at churches. And one particular fashion show they needed a commentator and the commentator I believe was going to get twenty-five dollars and the models were getting ten, so I became the commentator. I just said, I'll be the commentator, just like that. I'll be the commentator. And then they heard me do the commentary. My mother [Rebecca Dora Capers-Smaltz] came with me to make certain that I did the right thing and she was my critic. Oh god was she the critic. And she told me, well you said pretty too many times and you said this too many times and you licked your lips, you know, don't you lick your lips, you know. You black folk always licking your lips. Stop licking your lips and make certain you smile and take--oh, did she give me cree--feedback and criticism all the time. That was funny. So she was my first critic and I became a well-known commentator after that. People would hire me. I just started getting hired all the time. Then I went up to thirty-five dollars an hour--I mean for the show, not an hour, for the show.$$That was pretty good.$$Oh, it was big money, big, big cause you could have a whole dress made to order for twenty-five. So that was great. You know whatever I made I had a new dress made. I didn't save any money. I was living at home and I spent my money, fun, all in Harlem [New York]. Everything was Harlem.$$So this is all during high school [High School of Music & Art, New York, New York], right?$$High school, um-hmm, all during high school. Wow, yeah. And then when I went on to CCNY [City College of New York, New York City] I just kept on modeling and--well it wasn't full time you know. Not like today you know, it was the weekends. You didn't have to take off.$Now the Ebony Fashion Fair was the idea of Eunice Johnson, right? I mean what started the--$$Actually it was the idea of Freda DeNight. It was Freda DeNight's--well you know it's a lot of stories mixed up now after forty eight years. But Mrs. Dent from New Orleans, Dillard University [New Orleans, Louisiana], she needed a fundraiser and she called--she, she said she called Freda [DeNight], Freda spoke to [HM] John [H.] Johnson, John Johnson said fine and Freda got a fashion show together cause Freda was the Fashion Editor or the Home Director Editor or something. And Daviera Edwards [ph.] knew about fashion shows who was Freda's assistant, and so they got a fashion show together. They picked up the girls out of New York. Those are all basically New York girls I think, cause two of my friends are--I'm sure there were some other girls in there and they hit the road with six shows in 1958. And they went by plane and then they realized it's--then it was thirty shows and then they needed a bus and then from then on it's now 160 shows. So when I went there we were doing about seventy-eight shows and then into the third year with me, we doubled those shows. So we went from January to December, we had a break and then we went, we were--excuse me, we went from September through December, then we had a break and we went from January through April. And I think basically they still do that same schedule, I'm not sure, but it was an incredible time. I met Yves St. Laurent, I met Givenchy, Hubert de Givenchy, Emanuel Ungaro, Bill Blass, Oscar de la Renta, Pauline Trigere. I met all the top designers of the world. I went to their ateliers. We purchased clothes. Eunice had an unlimited budget to buy anything she wanted. We purchased all the clothes for the Ebony Fashion Fair. We'd come back, I would organize the show. I was the fashion coordinator. We hired the models, we'd have model exhibits where the--auditions where the models would come from all over cause there are thousands of girls and guys who wanted to be an Ebony Fashion Fair model. And I--all those young ladies, not all, but so many of them are still my friends. And the most beautiful people you can imagine I met on the road with the Ebony Fashion Fair, doctors, lawyers, Indian Chiefs, bus drivers, sanitation workers, you name it. And people even till this day, "Audrey, I remember you from the Ebony Fashion Fair." I say, "oh, you must be very old. That was thirty years ago." But so many people always remember me from the Ebony Fashion Fair. I had fun. I was a fun commentator. I would just sit up there in a high chair and just talk.$$Can you give--$$Make people laugh.

Joan Sandler

Joan Delores Sandler was born on October 2, 1934 in Harlem, New York. Her mother worked as a nurse’s aide and domestic and her father was an elevator operator. Sandler was educated in New York City public schools earning her high school diploma in 1952 from the New York High School of Music and Arts.

After graduation, Sandler worked as a clerk for an insurance company. She also surrounded herself with artists and musicians, while becoming a political activist involved in the peace movement. In the early 1960s, Sandler began studying theatre with the Negro Ensemble Company and landed a role on the television drama series, Black Girl.

She began her art career in 1975, working as a program specialist for the Department of Cultural Affairs. Sandler then went on to work for the Black Theatre Alliance and Fundraising in the Public Interest. From 1983 until 1987, she worked for the Metropolitan Museum of Art where she was in charge of community education. She also worked for the National Endowment for the Arts and the Museum of American Folk Art. In 2001, Sandler served as executive director for the foundation of her longtime friend, artist Romare Bearden. The Romare Bearden Foundation continues Bearden’s visual arts legacy through community outreach and education.

Sandler continues to consult in arts education. She has worked as a lecturer and faculty member at Hunter College, New York University, Marymount College and Princeton. She has served as an advisor to many foundations and grant making organizations. Sandler has received a number of awards and honors for her contributions to arts education.

Accession Number

A2005.035

Sex

Female

Interview Date

2/2/2005

Last Name

Sandler

Maker Category
Marital Status

Divorced

Occupation
Schools

Fiorello H. LaGuardia High School of Music & Art and Performing Arts

P.S. 10 Magnet School for Science and Technology

P.S. 113 Anthony J. Pranzo

Julia Ward Howe Junior High School 81

Ps 333 Manhattan School For Children

Speakers Bureau

Yes

Speakers Bureau Availability

Depends on Schedule

First Name

Joan

Birth City, State, Country

New York

HM ID

SAN03

Speakers Bureau Preferred Audience

Adults, Seniors, Cultural Organizations and Artists

Speakers Bureau Honorarium

Yes

Favorite Season

Fall

Speaker Bureau Notes

Preferred Audience: Adults, Seniors, Cultural Organizations and Artists

State

New York

Favorite Vacation Destination

Southern Europe, Caribbean, South America

Favorite Quote

None

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

New York

Birth Date

10/2/1934

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

New York

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Soul Food, French, Italian, West Indian Food

Short Description

Arts educator Joan Sandler (1934 - ) worked for the Metropolitan Museum of Art and the National Endowment for the Arts. She was also a lecturer and faculty member at several colleges and universities.

Employment

Romare Bearden Foundation

Museum of American Folk Art

National Endowment for the Arts

The Metropolitan Museum of Art

Fundraising in the Public Interest

The Black Theater Alliance

New York City Department of Cultural Affairs

Favorite Color

Turquoise

Timing Pairs
0,0:774,10:1548,21:2494,68:12212,197:26720,312:36333,459:37152,487:37698,502:38608,520:42885,576:46434,649:48436,728:57488,788:58664,827:67680,1008:73259,1047:74365,1135:89579,1320:89983,1325:92003,1364:103680,1565$0,0:14124,344:14436,349:15138,379:20208,477:22002,542:23172,572:32866,690:33838,705:37969,792:38698,805:39265,813:39589,818:40075,825:41776,859:42667,875:43072,881:43558,889:55931,1052:56627,1062:58106,1096:59063,1121:59585,1128:62630,1188:68623,1252:69316,1271:73604,1338:74060,1350:77860,1404:78164,1409:98736,1729:101258,1761:101840,1767:102325,1774:102713,1779:103489,1788:119260,1997:119962,2007:120352,2016:120820,2053:127155,2137:130008,2158:131496,2174:136425,2287:138843,2338:149523,2509:150252,2526:152034,2567:156408,2662:167910,2790:175622,2898:176364,2906:196243,3203:216538,3519:220760,3548:222434,3568:224108,3591:224852,3600:229316,3675:233477,3719:233745,3724:234214,3732:252762,3964:254010,4027:254874,4049:257940,4080:259144,4120:260434,4203:270210,4270
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Joan Sandlers' interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Joan Sandler lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Joan Sandler describes her mother

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Joan Sandler describes her father

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Joan Sandler talks about her parents' divorce

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Joan Sandler describes her maternal grandparents

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Joan Sandler talks about her ancestry

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Joan Sandler describes her earliest childhood memory

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Joan Sandler lists her siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Joan Sandler remembers holiday celebrations in her childhood

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Joan Sandler shares stories about her mother's and her maternal aunt's experiences in Harlem, New York, New York

Tape: 1 Story: 12 - Joan Sandler shares memories of growing up in Harlem, New York, New York

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Joan Sandler talks about her mother's family history

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Joan Sandler describes rent parties at her home in Harlem, New York

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Joan Sandler describes the sights, sounds and smells of her childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Joan Sandler remembers a special Christmas with her mother

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Joan Sandler describes her elementary and junior high school experiences in New York, New York

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Joan Sandler describes living with family in Rocky Mount, North Carolina after her parents' separation

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Joan Sandler talks about her stepfather, Willis Hunter

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Joan Sandler recalls her interests at Julia Ward Howe Junior High School 81 and The High School of Music and Art in New York, New York

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Joan Sandler talks about listening to radical street orators in Harlem, New York, New York

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Joan Sandler talks about her early adult life in Harlem, New York, New York

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Joan Sandler talks about the early years of her marriage to Alvin Sandler

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Joan Sandler talks about Louis E. Burnham's influence on her life

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Joan Sandler talks about her friendship with Lorraine Hansberry

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Joan Sandler describes living in Mexico with her family

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Joan Sandler remembers the political atmosphere of New York, New York in the 1960s

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Joan Sandler describes her work with the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Joan Sandler recalls her work with the Black Theatre Alliance and acting career

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Joan Sandler remembers developments in African American art from the 1960s to 1980s

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Joan Sandler describes the effects of political activism on her family life

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Joan Sandler describes her work as an artists' model and promoting black films

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Joan Sandler talks about working at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, New York

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Joan Sandler describes changes in the black art world in the 1980s

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Joan Sandler talks about her work as a regional representative for the National Endowment for the Arts

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Joan Sandler talks about consulting for arts foundations and museums

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Joan Sandler talks about growth in the black filmmaking and the need for developing black theatre

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Joan Sandler describes the purpose of an artist-based foundation

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Joan Sandler talks about her goals and plans for the Romare Bearden Foundation in New York, New York

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Joan Sandler talks about challenges for contemporary African American artists

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Joan Sandler talks about her daughters, Eve and Kathe Sandler, and their careers

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Joan Sandler reflects upon her life

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Joan Sandler reflects upon the importance of history

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Joan Sandler describes how she would like to be remembered

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Joan Sandler shares her memories of Paul Robeson

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Joan Sandler recalls James Baldwin's final days

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Joan Sandler reflects upon her legacy

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - Joan Sandler describes her hopes for the African American community

Tape: 5 Story: 11 - Joan Sandler describes her hopes for the future

Tape: 5 Story: 12 - Joan Sandler narrates her photographs, pt. 1

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Joan Sandler narrates her photographs, pt. 2

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$4

DAStory

4$3

DATitle
Joan Sandler remembers a special Christmas with her mother
Joan Sandler talks about working at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, New York
Transcript
Tell me a little bit about the Christmas with no ornaments.$$Yeah. That was the building, yeah, before we moved to 113th Street [New York, New York]. And, I guess I was ten years old around that time, maybe a little older. And, we knew it was Christmas and we knew there was not a gift in the house. And, no special foods 'cause normally there would be that. There was just a very poor Christmas. And, my mother [Mary Wade Alexander] had a boyfriend at that time and either he was still with his family and coming back and forth, or he just wasn't present. And, we had nothing. And, my mother said--and, I guess we were just sort of walking around, you know, just looking sad but not complaining loud, but my mother saw that. And, she just took all these magazines and pieces of paper and she made all these wonderful things by hand. And, she got us involved in making it. And, my brothers tell the same story. They were smaller than me at the time. And, she just had this incredible spirit and magic about her that she could pull us from the dust bin really, and make, make Christmas. And, all--so these decoration were handmade. My mother was very good with her hands. She was a great seamstress, and she was a great cook, and she, she just had this creative spirit. And, it's a Christmas--and we had just about enough food in the house at that time. And, it's a Christmas I and my brothers, when we get together, we talked about it. But, now my older brothers have passed away, but they remembered it very well. And, they remember her spirit.$Let's talk about your work at the Metropolitan Museum of Art [(The Met), New York, New York].$$Yeah. I was trying to remember where I was just before I went to The Met. Let me get this story straight, now (simultaneous).$$(Simultaneous) You were at Fundraising in the Public Interest.$$Yeah, Fundraising--I guess I did go straight to The Met from there. In fact, the position that was created before I went there, my dear friend Herb Scott-Gibson [Herbert Scott-Gibson] was working for them. And, it were called [Department of] Community Education. There was a whole education department that was devoted to non--all the stuff The Met had not done for years. It was making the museum accessible for people in wheelchairs. It was bringing in community groups if you live--coming to the gallery; was working with senior citizens. I had about, it was in that department about four or five places for people. Also, doing bilingual lecturers and that kind of thing. I think I mentioned that. But, my friend Herb Scott-Gibson who had that job for about two years passed away. And, he was a good friend of mine. He passed away and, and it was rather shocking. And, then I--someone from The Met called me and said, you know, "They're looking for someone, would you come in and interview for it?" I must have known at least a dozen people from around the country--no, didn't know who they were, in some cases I knew them; who interviewed for it. And, I, you know, I was interested in the job certainly but it was always fascinating to me that when Philippe de Montebello said, "She's the one" (laughter). So, I said, "Okay, not bad, not bad." I was told that much later by people who sat in on the interview. So, I was there for I guess close to four years with a very exciting department. A couple of snakes in the grass who tried to, you know, bite my ankles off and that kind of thing.$$(Laughter).$$And, but we did a lot of wonderful things and as a result I was able to also bring musicians into the museum, like Randy Weston and people like that; have an afternoon talk between Romare Bearden and [HistoryMaker] Richard Long, have those ki- that caliber of people there. The head of the Museo [de Arte de Puerto Rico] in [Santurce] Puerto Rico, the head of the culture institutions there would come. And, we'd do whole wonderful talks in Spanish. And, I asked to Philippe to introduce them, 'cause Philippe spoke Spanish even though he's, he's French, he spoke wonderful Spanish. And, he would, you know, some of the scholars he knew. So, I was able to just move into a lot of different directions with enormous resources. And, then, then things got a little tight there and a little funny 'cause I was also very much a favorite, not just by Philippe but also by the president of the museum, Bill Macomber [William B. Macomber Jr.]. And, and then the last thing I did there working with my neighbor who has a Ph.D. from Harvard [University, Cambridge, Massachusetts], I did a study on the needs and the patterns of professionals of color and art museums in America. And, I had mostly--focusing actually on the northeast and maybe the mid, mid-Atlantic states, yeah, down passed Washington [D.C.].$$What did you discover in your study (simultaneous)?$$(Simultaneous) Well, I discovered that art museums are the hardest places to work in, in that you're--the, being accepted and considered on the par as your white counterpart, even if you might come in with all the degrees and everything, that never happened. Art museums adjusted poorly and slowly to what was the changing population on many levels. Not just in the program area but in the hiring practices and that kind of thing. We found that museums that weren't, even though they weren't a part of the study that were like science museum, natural history museum, historical societies were a little more open to, to diversity. And, to diversity among professionals and encouraging that. It was, it was an interesting study. It was used for a long time in a lot of situations, and it was, it was known all over the country. And, I was active in the museum professional associations, and that kind of thing. And, then that was the last thing I did and that was my last year at The Met.