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Linda M. White

The 26th International President of Alpha Kappa Alpha (AKA) Sorority, Inc. (2002 – 2006) Linda White was born in Cleveland, Ohio to a dining car waiter and a homemaker. White worked for several years as a Social Security administrator while remaining active in the AKA Sorority. Under White’s leadership the Sorority established the Ivy Reading AKAdemy and initiated the Centennial Traveling exhibit.

Raised in Chicago, White graduated from Parker High School in 1959 before matriculating to Clark College in Atlanta, Georgia. While at Clark, White became active with the AKA Sorority and received her B.A. degree in 1963. She later went to the University of Chicago where she completed her M.A. degree in 1969. After earning a certificate in systems from Stanford University, White moved to Washington, D.C. in 1971 to work as a management analyst in the Department of Health and Human Services. She served in that capacity for two years before returning to Chicago, where she worked for the Social Security Administration. There, White rose to the rank of area director, managing the Chicago East District Office and overseeing twenty-nine Social Security offices in the region.

Upon her retirement in 2002, White began working full-time for the AKA Sorority. Then in July 2002, she became the Sorority’s International President. During her administration, White’s plan was to push the use of technology, particularly the Internet, to facilitate communication both within and beyond the organization. Additionally, she has earmarked education, the family, health, economics and the arts as program targets.

Active for more than forty years at the local and national levels of the AKA Sorority, White has contributed more than twenty years of service to the organization's educational foundation and serves as national president of the committee. She is a member of the Board of Directors of the United Negro College Fund (UNCF) and a life member of the NAACP. For more than fifty years, White has been a member of St. Mark United Methodist Church, where she is a former president of the Administrative Board and past chairperson of the Council on Ministries and Pastor/Parish Relations.

White lives in Chicago, Illinois.

White was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on May 30, 2008 as part of the Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority’s Centennial Boulé 2008 celebration. Segments of these interviews were used in a DVD entitled A.K.A. Sorority: A Legacy of Supreme Service.

Accession Number

A2003.250

Sex

Female

Interview Date

10/8/2003 |and| 5/30/2008

Last Name

White

Maker Category
Marital Status

Single

Schools

Betsy Ross Elementary School

Paul Robeson High School

Clark Atlanta University

University of Chicago

Stanford University

First Name

Linda

Birth City, State, Country

Cleveland

HM ID

WHI04

Favorite Season

None

State

Ohio

Favorite Vacation Destination

None

Favorite Quote

You Can't Relive The Past. The Only Thing You Can Do Is Learn From It And Move Forward.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Illinois

Birth Date

4/21/1942

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Chicago

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Macaroni, Cheese, Prime Rib Steak

Death Date

2/26/2010

Short Description

Association chief executive and federal government administrator Linda M. White (1942 - 2010 ) was a former national president of the Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc.

Employment

Department of Health & Human Services

Social Security Administration

Favorite Color

Aqua Green

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Linda M. White's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Linda M. White lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Linda M. White talks about her parents, including the origins of her father's name

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Linda M. White talks about her mother Mary Fennell White's family background, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Linda M. White talks about her mother Mary Fennell White's family background, pt. 2

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Linda M. White talks about her father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Linda M. White describes her mother's work and personality, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Linda M. White describes her mother's work and personality, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Linda M. White talks about her father's work and personality

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Linda M. White describes the boundaries of her neighborhood on the South Side of Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Linda M. White describes the sights, sounds, and smells of growing up in Chicago, Illinois, pt. 1

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Linda M. White describes the sights, sounds, and smells of growing up in Chicago, Illinois, pt. 2

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Linda M. White describes her teachers at Betsy Ross Elementary School in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Linda M. White describes her experience at Parker High School in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Linda M. White talks about activities she was involved in at Parker High School in Chicago, Illinois

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Linda M. White talks about deciding to attend Clark College in the early 1960s

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Linda M. White describes her experiences at Clark College in Atlanta, Georgia during the early 1960s, including participating in sit-ins and marches

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Linda M. White describes the consequences of sit-ins for herself and participating students in Atlanta, Georgia during the early 1960s

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Linda M. White talks about her choice of major at Clark College in Atlanta, Georgia

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Linda M. White talks about pledging Alpha Kappa Alpha at Clark College in the 1960s, pt. 1

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Linda M. White talks about pledging Alpha Kappa Alpha at Clark College in the 1960s, pt. 2

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Linda M. White talks about the history and purpose of the Alpha Kappa Alpha organization, pt. 1

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Linda M. White talks about the history and purpose of the Alpha Kappa Alpha organization, pt. 2

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Linda M. White compares Alpha Kappa Alpha to the Delta Sigma Theta sorority

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Linda M. White talks generally about black Greek letter organizations, including their importance for the black community

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Linda M. White talks about her transition from Clark College in Atlanta, Georgia to the University of Chicago for graduate school

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Linda M. White describes her professors and academic experience at the University of Chicago in the 1960s

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Linda M. White speaks to work being done by the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee during the early 1960s

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Linda M. White describes her life as a graduate student at the University of Chicago and working as a medical transcriber

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Linda M. White talks about her career at Social Security Administration

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Linda M. White talks about the reach of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, both in the United States and abroad

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Linda M. White describes the most rewarding aspect of being president of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Linda M. White describes her hopes and concerns for the black community

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Linda M. White reflects upon her legacy

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Linda M. White considers what she would have done differently

Tape: 4 Story: 10 - Linda M. White reflects upon how she would like to be remembered

Tape: 4 Story: 11 - Linda M. White describes being a part of a political forum with Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr.

Tape: 4 Story: 12 - Linda M. White narrates her photographs, pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Linda M. White narrates her photographs, pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Linda M. White narrates her photographs, pt. 3

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Slating of Linda M. White's interview, session two

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Linda M. White's talks about her first involvements in the Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority and her relationship with Marjorie Holloman Parker

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Linda M. White talks about the various positions she held in Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, including president

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Linda M. White describes her initial goals as president of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Linda M. White talks about the programs she put in place as president of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, pt. 1

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Linda M. White describes what she learned and the data from the implementation of the Ivy Ready AKAdemy program

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Linda M. White talks about the results of the membership survey she conducted as president for Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Linda M. White explains the concept of sisterhood, pt. 1

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - Linda M. White talks about executing her vision as president Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Linda M. White talks about the 2002 Alpha Kappa Alpha national conference where she was installed as president of the organization, pt. 1

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - Linda M. White talks about the book 'Pearls of Service: the legacy of America's first black sorority, Alpha Kappa Alpha'

Tape: 7 Story: 3 - Linda M. White talks about the lawsuit filed against Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority in 2002

Tape: 7 Story: 4 - Linda M. White talks about the risk management group she formed as a result of the lawsuit Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority faced in 2002

Tape: 7 Story: 5 - Linda M. White talks about hazing in Greek letter organizations

Tape: 7 Story: 6 - Linda M. White talks about the 2002 Alpha Kappa Alpha national conference where she was installed as president of the organization, pt. 2

Tape: 7 Story: 7 - Linda M. White considers what can be learned from the past and the importance adapting to the future

Tape: 7 Story: 8 - Linda M. White explains the concept of sisterhood, pt. 2

Tape: 7 Story: 9 - Linda M. White expresses her concerns for Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority

Tape: 7 Story: 10 - Linda M. White reflects upon her legacy as national president of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority

Tape: 8 Story: 1 - Linda M. White describes the impact of technology on Alpha Kappa Alpha in the early 2000s

Tape: 8 Story: 2 - Linda M. White recalls planning with the national board and program chairs of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority during the first months of her presidency

Tape: 8 Story: 3 - Linda M. White describes the organizational structure of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority

Tape: 8 Story: 4 - Linda M. White talks about Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority's funding and budget

Tape: 8 Story: 5 - Linda M. White speaks about Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority's Young Authors Program

Tape: 8 Story: 6 - Linda M. White explains how the responsibilities of her job prepared her to be president of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority

Tape: 8 Story: 7 - Linda M. White talks about the programs she put in place as president of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, pt. 2

DASession

2$1

DATape

6$4

DAStory

6$3

DATitle
Linda M. White describes what she learned and the data from the implementation of the Ivy Ready AKAdemy program
Linda M. White describes her life as a graduate student at the University of Chicago and working as a medical transcriber
Transcript
What did you learn in that process about the black community, or about education or children in the process of implementing this, you know, significant program?$$It's very--working -- in a economically deprived community, it's very difficult. I mean the, the children are delightful. They, they really are very interested in learning. But they need a lot of support systems, and sometimes those support systems weren't immediately available. And, you know, we tried to provide as much as we could. But I would say to anyone that- it's not an easy task and school systems are--have been trying all kinds of things to improve the -- reading skills of minority children and children like I said, who are economically deprived. But you have to work at it because if -- they aren't unable to read at grade level early in the game, they just fall so much further behind in school and are really not prepared to be competitive in life as a, an adult or high school student, or to be able to go to college because they've never gotten the fundamentals.$$Now you--that--cause I cut you off at the point. You were giving quantifiable, you know--$$Yes. And -- that was one thing that I especially wanted. We had a number of programs that have dealt with reading, health, many programs that serviced mankind, and were good programs and I would never disparage them. But I wanted something quantifiable. I wanted something that could be measured to say you either did something or you didn't do something. But it was acceptable not to achieve what you started out if you learned something from it so that you could make some changes or some other people could make some changes. And I got quantifiable data. And, like I said, we worked with University of North Florida [Jacksonville, Florida]. And they produced that data for us, and--$$So talk about your data. How many people did you reach, you know--$$Overall I think we reached about forty-five thousand students in a program, in a demonstration site there may be were no more than twenty-some children. But the chapters carried on the program to the extent that they could without funding, without being a part of the actual demonstration. But many of them got people to work with them who could do statistical data, count the number of hours spent in their program. So they supplemented what we were able to do on a demonstration basis. And that reached a much larger number of people.$$Okay.$$$Did you stay with family members in the--$$Yeah, see I didn't live that far from the university [University of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois], so I commuted every day. And, and I worked in the University of Chicago Hospitals [Chicago, Illinois]. And I was a medical transcriber. So I went from every summer I worked in a different department. And then when I went to graduate school, I worked most of the time in the radiology department. And I worked for a Dr. Vermeulen [ph.], and he was the head of the urology department. And he was a wonderful person to work with. Very, very gruff. You would--it was so interesting because all of the interns and residents, I could see them, I worked in his office and you could see, and they would check to see if he was in the office 'cause he was--he looked sometimes like a mad scientist, you know. And he had this map of the Middle East on the wall and he might point out things to them and they might have to respond. But in any case, he tried to talk me into going to medical school. And I said--and I'm thinking medical school, you know, this man must be out of his mind. I mean I did not see my bent in--I mean although I had done well in math and biology that did not seem like the area that I was strongest in. And he tried for the longest, you know you should, you should go to medical school; you should enter here at the university. And I said, "Well thank you Dr. Vermulen, but no thank you." But I know I'm getting a little off the subject, but one of the things I did do while I was at the university, I typed a book, part of the manuscripts that were used to present the Nobel Peace Prize to I believe it was [Charles Brenton] Huggins at the University of Chicago in the medical school [Pritzker School of Medicine, Chicago, Illinois]. And I had an opportunity, all of these people from famous doctors and scientists from all over the world sent things to contribute to the book, and part of my task was to, you know type up the manuscript. So that was, that was sort of an interesting experience.

Lionel McMurren

Lionel McMurren was born in Harlem, New York, on October 21, 1925. At the age of two, his mother died and he was raised by two aunts in Elizabeth City, North Carolina, and also by a great aunt in New York. McMurren attended public school in New York and went on to attend Brooklyn College. Because he was drafted in 1944 and served in the Pacific Rim Theater, McMurren did not complete his A.B. from Brooklyn until 1949. A year later, he went on to earn an M.S. from City Colleges of New York. In 1968, he received a professional diploma in instructional administration and a Ph.D. in 1980, both from Fordham University.

McMurren began his professional career in 1951, working as a health education community center teacher. In 1954, at the Methodist Camp Service, McMurren provided summer camp opportunities for inner-city youth. He did this for twenty years, both full and part time, rising eventually to the position of executive director. Also in 1954, McMurren returned to the junior high school of his youth, Frederick Douglass Junior High School, where he showed a particular talent in working with youth. Over the next ten years, McMurren would rise to dean of students and acting assistant principal. In 1964, McMurren took another position as a guidance counselor at a junior high school in Manhattan, and in 1966 he became the assistant principal of P.S. 78 Elementary School. Returning to Frederick Douglass, McMurren assumed the position of principal in 1969, and remained there until 1982.

McMurren was promoted to deputy superintendent of schools of New York in 1982, and remained there until 1986. McMurren continued to work in education even after leaving his post, both as a consultant and as associate professor at City Colleges of New York. In 2005, McMurren completed on an autobiographical account of his experiences at Frederick Douglass, entitled Frederick Douglass P.S. 139: A Citadel of Inspiration--its Aura and Impact : a Story of a Harlem School.

Beyond his years as an educator, McMurren was active in social and civic organizations. He held numerous positions with St. Mark's Methodist Church after first becoming involved in 1940. He was a member of several fraternal organizations, and has been involved with the Minority Task Force on AIDS.

McMurren's former wife, Dorothy, died in 1987. He later remarried and moved, with his wife, Jean, to Sarasota, Florida.

Lionel McMurren passed away on January 22, 2012.

Accession Number

A2003.194

Sex

Male

Interview Date

8/15/2003

Last Name

McMurren

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Schools

Brooklyn College

City College of New York

Fordham University

P.S. 5 Alexander Webb School

P.S. 139 Frederick Douglass School

DeWitt Clinton High School

First Name

Lionel

Birth City, State, Country

New York

HM ID

MCM02

Favorite Season

Summer

State

New York

Favorite Vacation Destination

Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts

Favorite Quote

None

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Florida

Birth Date

10/21/1925

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Tallahassee

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Peanut Butter, Jelly, Franks, Beans

Death Date

1/22/2012

Short Description

Junior high school principal Lionel McMurren (1925 - 2012 ) is the former deputy superintendent of the New York Public Schools.

Employment

Frederick Douglass Jr. High School

Methodist Camp Service

Manhattan Jr. High School #45

PS 78 Elementary School

Community School District

City College of New York

Super Center Consortium

Favorite Color

Green

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Lionel McMurren's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Lionel McMurren lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Lionel McMurren talks about his mother

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Lionel McMurren talks about his father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Lionel McMurren describes his father

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Lionel McMurren describes his earliest childhood memories

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Lionel McMurren describes his experiences living with his great-aunt Priscilla Manly in Harlem, New York, New York

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Lionel McMurren describes the sights, sounds and smells from his childhood in Harlem, New York, New York

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Lionel McMurren talks about going to live with his father

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Lionel McMurren remembers attending P.S. 5, Alexander Webb Elementary School, in Harlem, New York, New York

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Lionel McMurren describes his childhood personality

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Lionel McMurren talks about pursuing his dream of being a psychiatrist

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Lionel McMurren talks about his interest in psychology

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Lionel McMurren remembers Mr. Amatrano, his favorite teacher at P.S. 5, Alexander Webb School, in Harlem, New York, New York

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Lionel McMurren describes how schools in New York, New York tracked their students

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Lionel McMurren describes his class size and best subject at P.S. 5, Alexander Webb School in Harlem, New York, New York

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Lionel McMurren talks about Frederick Douglass Junior High School in New York, New York

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Lionel McMurren describes the history of Frederick Douglass Junior High School in New York, New York

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Lionel McMurren talks about his teachers at Frederick Douglass Junior High School in New York, New York

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Lionel McMurren talks about what he gained from attending Frederick Douglass Junior High School in New York, New York

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Lionel McMurren describes the camaraderie he felt while at DeWitt Clinton High School in the Bronx, New York, New York

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Lionel McMurren describes the demographics of DeWitt Clinton High School in the Bronx, New York, New York and wanting to become a teacher

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Lionel McMurren describes deciding to attend Brooklyn College in New York, New York

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Lionel McMurren talks about serving in the China Burma India Theater during World War II

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Lionel McMurren tells a story about segregation on a bus in Montgomery, Alabama

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Lionel McMurren describes the distinction between the U.S. Army Air Force and the Air Corps

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Lionel McMurren talks about graduating from Brooklyn College in New York, New York in 1949 and wanting to be a psychiatrist

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Lionel McMurren describes how he became a teacher at Frederick Douglass Junior High School in New York, New York

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Lionel McMurren talks about being dean at Frederick Douglass Junior High School in New York, New York

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Lionel McMurren talks about the Instructional Administrator's Program at Fordham University in the Bronx, New York, New York and eventually becoming a principal

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Lionel McMurren talks about the advent of Frederick Douglass Intermediate School 10 in New York, New York, of which he was principal

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Lionel McMurren describes his time as principal at Frederick Douglass Intermediate School 10 in New York, New York

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Lionel McMurren talks about discrimination against minority teachers in New York City public schools

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Lionel McMurren describes building a team of administrators for Frederick Douglass Intermediate School 10 in New York, New York

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Lionel McMurren talks about his goals as principal of Frederick Douglass Intermediate School 10 in New York, New York

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Lionel McMurren sings Frederick Douglass Intermediate School 10's school song

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Lionel McMurren talks about having conferences with new teachers at Frederick Douglass Intermediate School 10, in New York, New York

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Lionel McMurren talks about connections he made as principal of Frederick Douglass Junior High School in New York, New York, pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Lionel McMurren talks about connections he made as principal of Frederick Douglass Junior High School in New York, New York, pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Lionel McMurren talks about becoming deputy superintendent for schools of New York and campaigning to improve schools in central Harlem, New York

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Lionel McMurren describes training assistant principals and principals in his role as deputy superintendent of schools of New York, New York

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Lionel McMurren talks about the influence of HistoryMaker Eugene H. Webb on Frederick Douglass Intermediate School 10 in New York, New York

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Lionel McMurren talks about the legacy of Frederick Douglass Intermediate School 10 in New York, New York, today and how it's changed

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Lionel McMurren talks about his hope for Harlem, New York, New York

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Lionel McMurren talks about his decision to retire in 1986

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Lionel McMurren describes his involvement with civic organizations

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Lionel McMurren talks about what he'd like to do during retirement

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Lionel McMurren talks about Sigma Pi Phi Fraternity, the Boule

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Lionel McMurren talks about his love for Harlem, New York, New York and what it mean to be a good educator

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Lionel McMurren reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Lionel McMurren recites the poem, 'Invictus'

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Lionel McMurren narrates his photographs, pt. 1

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Lionel McMurren narrates his photographs, pt.2

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - Lionel McMurren narrates his photographs, pt.3

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$5

DAStory

7$9

DATitle
Lionel McMurren describes the history of Frederick Douglass Junior High School in New York, New York
Lionel McMurren talks about his hope for Harlem, New York, New York
Transcript
So we're talking about the history of [Frederick] Douglass [Junior High School, New York, New York].$$Yes, yes, the history of Douglass. This is Robert S. Dixon who gathered the students and staff members of the first school, the first class of Douglass; they marched from what was a night club on the hill--it was a hill on 140th Street and Seventh Avenue [New York, New York]. Now, it's called Adam Clayton Powell Boulevard, but it was Seventh Avenue, and he marched to the school, which was located on 140th Street between Lennox and Seventh Avenues, and that was the beginning of Douglass. And so (simultaneous)--$$What year was that? (Simultaneous).$$Nineteen twenty-four [1924].$$Oh, yeah, you just said that.$$And so that school began. And the school apparently attracted so many noteworthy persons who became noteworthy at any rate; Countee Cullen was one, and he was a great person--poet--known, well-known, as a poet, and he taught French in his--he had years in France, et cetera. Mr. Harcore Tynes [ph.], whom, on one of the articles I have here on my becoming a principal and saying that I was--I could relate to Harlem [New York, New York] and the students and all as principal, I was so blessed to be in that position. And I said because I had such wonderful teachers at the school where I did attend, and one which was Harcore Tynes who was, and I quote, "Teaching Negro history before it was popular." He was teaching us Negro history then.$$Now, how--but what--it was part of the public school system but--I'm just trying to understand it; I understand there was a march, but what--how did it come about--into being? You know, how within (simultaneous)--$$Board of Education decided they would have a school in Harlem--$$Okay.$$--and it should be; however, it came, and fortunately, the name Frederick Douglass. And they assembled a staff from the Board of Education, and the students, apparently, you know, were invited from those who lived in the neighborhood.$$But boys.$$All boys. They had an all-boys' school at that time, and they started--it may have been simultaneously--had to be because they had to have some provision for the girls. A boys' school--this girls' school was Harriet Beecher Stowe [Intermediate School, New York, New York], and that was for all girls--a junior high school. Although when we began celebrating Douglass and Douglass gentlemen and Douglass alumni, before we had the point when I became principal of the new school, that was the first time girls were allowed to come in or were not--I shouldn't say allowed to, but were also part of the school. And we were talking about history of Douglass, et cetera and all of the Douglass alumni. So we had one teacher there who said, "I'm an alumnus of Douglass." I said, "What do you mean you're alumnus of Douglass?" She knows--now we know how old she is. "How could you be an alumnus of Douglass?" She says, "Well, as it turns out, when Douglass first started in 1924, they had a kindergarten that was housed in that school." And she was in the kindergarten 'til the third grade; her name was Catherine Wilson [ph.]. And so she says, "And so I, too, am an alumnus of Douglass." (Laughter), so we had to permit that--with great pleasure.$Do you think with the re-development of, of Harlem [New York, New York], that there's a chance for that? It would take some time, you're saying.$$Well, I'm like [HM Reverend] Jesse [L.] Jackson, I keep hope--keep hope alive (laughter). I feel that--I've heard so many good things about things happening in Harlem; I'm wondering what's happening with regard to the children. And whether or not they're children as well, moving there. I don't think--I haven't addressed that with anyone else who has talked about it. Some--a number of people are very knowledgeable. I wanna find out if these people--if they're just older people that are moving in, which I maybe get the--I get the thought; maybe I don't have any basis for it; I think they're older people whose children are grown, or who are moving in buyin' all of these places in Harlem now, like a--my church used to own a parsonage over on 139th Street [New York, New York] that probably was about $27,000, and now it can sell for $300,000, you know? But I'm wondering if the children are moving in, too; I don't think so--maybe they are, and if so, where are they going to school? If they can move in there and go to school down--up someplace else private, wherever--anyplace but the neighborhood school; and that would be my thought--that's what they would probably do. And I guess maybe you cannot much blame them; they say, "I'm gonna live here now, but I want my kid or grand kid--some of the people have their grandchildren and they're takin' care of them now, but for whatever reason, they don't want their grandchildren going there, see? So, if you can make a transformation of the schools there, at the same time that neighborhood's transforming, then there's hope for it and, and, and that will improve the schools because the people in the houses, the parents and community people, will demand, and they have to put the pressure on the people to make sure that things change. If you don't have anybody--where, where there's no protest, there's no progress.