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J. Herman Blake

Born John Herman Blake on March 15, 1934, Blake grew up in Mount Vernon, New York, as one of seven children raised by his single mother, Lylace E. Blake. Blake’s family lived in poverty, surviving only by welfare. Blake’s mother encouraged each of her children to participate and excel in school; all seven children completed high school; six received bachelor’s degrees; five achieved master’s degrees; and two earned doctorate degrees.

After serving in the U.S. Army during the Korean War, Blake continued his education with the assistance of the G.I. Bill; he enrolled in New York University in 1955, and received his B.A. degree in sociology in 1960. Blake went on to receive his M.A. degree and his Ph.D. in sociology from the University of California at Berkeley. In 1966, Blake, as the Assistant Professor of Sociology, became the first African American on the University of California Santa Cruz faculty. During his eighteen year tenure, Blake also served as the Founding Provost of Oakes College at the University of California Santa Cruz.

After leaving the University of California Santa Cruz, Blake served as the President of Tougaloo College until 1987; held positions at Swarthmore College; served as the Vice Chancellor at Indiana University; and served as the Director of African American Studies at Iowa State University. In 2002, Blake was named Iowa Professor of the Year and received an Honorary Degree from Indiana University.In addition to his career in education, Blake published several projects including Revolutionary Suicide, an autobiography of Huey P. Newton, which was the result of his research on black militants in urban areas.

Blake also researched many other topics; his work made him a leading authority on the Gullah culture. Additionally, Blake served as the Scholar in Residence and Director of the Sea Island Institute at the University of South Carolina, Beaufort, an institution whose primary focus is the study and promotion of Gullah Cultures. In 2008, the Medical University of South Carolina appointed Blake as the first Humanities Scholar in Residence. Blake served as an advisor to the University’s Humanities Committee and to the President and Provost on matters of cultural enrichment.

Accession Number

A2007.036

Sex

Male

Interview Date

1/31/2007

Last Name

Blake

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Middle Name

Herman

Schools

Northeastern Academy

New York University

University of California, Berkeley

First Name

J.

Birth City, State, Country

Mt. Vernon

HM ID

BLA12

Favorite Season

Spring, Summer

State

New York

Favorite Vacation Destination

Central California

Favorite Quote

Keep On Keepin' On.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

South Carolina

Birth Date

3/15/1934

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Charleston

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Sweet Potato Cobbler

Short Description

University president and sociology professor J. Herman Blake (1934 - ) was the president of Tougaloo College, and was a tenured member of the the University of California Santa Cruz faculty for eighteen years. Blake also authored the Huey P. Newton biography, "Revolutionary Suicide," and is a well-respected as a leading authority on Gullah culture.

Employment

University of California Santa Cruz

Tougaloo College

Iowa State University

Favorite Color

Sky Blue

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of J. Herman Blake's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - J. Herman Blake lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - J. Herman Blake describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - J. Herman Blake recalls his childhood home in Mount Vernon, New York

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - J. Herman Blake describes his father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - J. Herman Blake describes his paternal ancestry on Johns Island, South Carolina

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - J. Herman Blake describes his father, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - J. Herman Blake describes his father, pt. 2

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - J. Herman Blake describes his two oldest brothers

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - J. Herman Blake recalls the generosity of Lillian Tinsley

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - J. Herman Blake lists his siblings

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - J. Herman Blake describes his earliest childhood memory

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - J. Herman Blake recalls living with the family of Thaddeus Wilson, Sr.

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - J. Herman Blake describe his neighborhood in Mount Vernon, New York

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - J. Herman Blake describes his early education in Mount Vernon, New York

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - J. Herman Blake recalls his influences at Harlem Junior Academy in New York City, pt. 1

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - J. Herman Blake recalls his influences at Harlem Junior Academy in New York City, pt. 2

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - J. Herman Blake recalls learning about African American history

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - J. Herman Blake recalls attending New York City's Harlem Junior Academy

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - J. Herman Blake describes his early work experiences

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - J. Herman Blake remembers being drafted to the U.S. Army

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - J. Herman Blake recalls being stationed in France

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - J. Herman Blake recalls his marriage to Bessie Jefferson Blake

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - J. Herman Blake remembers attending New York University

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - J. Herman Blake recalls his graduate studies at the University of California, Berkley

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - J. Herman Blake describes his social activism in California

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - J. Herman Blake recalls testifying at Huey P. Newton's trial

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - J. Herman Blake remembers visiting Huey P. Newton in prison

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - J. Herman Blake recalls coauthoring 'Revolutionary Suicide'

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - J. Herman Blake remembers author Alex Haley

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - J. Herman Blake describes his civil rights activity in the 1960s, pt. 1

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - J. Herman Blake describes his civil rights activity in the 1960s, pt. 2

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - J. Herman Blake remembers his mother's death

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - J. Herman Blake recalls his mother's pride in his accomplishments

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - J. Herman Blake recalls founding Oakes College in Santa Cruz, California, pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - J. Herman Blake recalls founding Oakes College in Santa Cruz, California, pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - J. Herman Blake recalls designing a course for Oakes College

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - J. Herman Blake describes the significance of his lapel flower

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - J. Herman Blake describes his work with the Emil Schwarzhaut Foundation

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - J. Herman Blake recalls the service projects he implemented in the Sea Islands

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - J. Herman Blake recalls his students' interactions with the community of Daufuskie Island, South Carolina

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - J. Herman Blake describes Pat Conroy's interpretation of Daufuskie Island

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - J. Herman Blake recalls lessons from the residents of Daufuskie Island

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - J. Herman Blake talks about Pat Conroy's book, 'The Water Is Wide'

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - J. Herman Blake describes storyteller Thomas Stafford

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - J. Herman Blake recalls editing the journal of the National Black Law Students Association

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - J. Herman Blake remembers community activist Thomas Barnwell

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - J. Herman Blake describes the Penn Center on St. Helena Island, South Carolina

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - J. Herman Blake recalls founding Oakes College in Santa Cruz, California

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - J. Herman Blake describes the faculty of Oakes College

Tape: 7 Story: 3 - J. Herman Blake describes the students at Oakes College

Tape: 7 Story: 4 - J. Herman Blake remembers Alex Haley's Kinte Library Project

Tape: 7 Story: 5 - J. Herman Blake describes his friendship with Alex Haley

Tape: 7 Story: 6 - J. Herman Blake recalls watching the filming of 'Roots'

Tape: 7 Story: 7 - J. Herman Blake recalls Alex Haley's article about Daufuskie Island

Tape: 7 Story: 8 - J. Herman Blake recalls leaving Oakes College in Santa Cruz, California

Tape: 8 Story: 1 - J. Herman Blake recalls his presidency at Mississippi's Tougaloo College

Tape: 8 Story: 2 - J. Herman Blake describes the financial challenges he faced at Tougaloo College

Tape: 8 Story: 3 - J. Herman Blake describes the students at Tougaloo College

Tape: 8 Story: 4 - J. Herman Blake describes his philosophy of learning

Tape: 8 Story: 5 - J. Herman Blake recalls a conflict with the alumni of Tougaloo College

Tape: 8 Story: 6 - J. Herman Blake recalls an incident of sexual assault at Tougaloo College

DASession

1$1

DATape

4$8

DAStory

4$1

DATitle
J. Herman Blake recalls coauthoring 'Revolutionary Suicide'
J. Herman Blake recalls his presidency at Mississippi's Tougaloo College
Transcript
Well there was a time when his mother made a mistake and she came with two of her daughters, as I recall, on my day because you see, if you visited with Huey [Huey P. Newton], he wasn't in solitary confinement so we each came on a different day. There was one day when you couldn't visit, that's when his lawyers would come and they weren't on the list anyhow so it was keeping him out of solitary confinement. So on my day we're sitting there, Huey and I talking, and here comes Mrs. Newton [Armelia Johnson Newton] along with one or two of her daughters, there's several of us and they came in. So we were all there talking and in the course of the conversation Mrs. Newton got into talking about Gene Marine, who had written a book ['The Black Panthers'] about the Black Panther Party and this, that and the other and Ms. Newton said, "You know, that white man came and talked to me and then he went and lied on me." She did not like the book. She said, "He lied on me," and she's calling "Huerry"; she didn't say Huey, Huey--, "Huerry." She said, "Huerry, Huerry, why don't you write a book?" And Huey said, "I can't write a book, Dr. Blake [HistoryMaker J. Herman Blake] can write a book," and out of that interchange came the notion that Dr. Blake would do a biography of Huey Newton. There would be a, quote, authorized biography. So I picked up on the idea and started organizing my material, contacted Alex Haley for counsel and began collecting data on Huey Newton, mainly from him. We talked about a lot of things and he thought he was going to be in there for seventeen years and he told me a lot of stuff. Well what Huey would do was he would talk and then I'd come out of the prison [California Men's Colony, San Luis Obispo, California] and I had a tape recorder in my car and as soon as I came out, I would go over what he said and put it on the tape recorder. Now our style of working with, we'd talk about something for two hours and I'd review it. And we'd talk about something more and I'd review it and then before I left, I'd go down the list of issues and when I got in the car, on that tape, one of my students would be driving and I'd be talking on that tape, recording that account and that's how we began to do that. And then in August of 1970, as I recall, his conviction was reversed and he was released. It was at that time we decided to change it from an authorized biography to a first person account with me as, you know, Huey Newton as the author and me assisting but I wrote every line, every single word and I put it in the first person. Now let me say that was a task I would never do again because you have to give up your own personality and your own ego and step into somebody else's body and I was never comfortable with that being a scholar, because you're not doing scholarly work, you're essentially just channeling somebody else's material and ideas and Huey and I had some strong disagreements because I felt there had to be some analytical approaches in there but he did not want that but I don't know how you do this without being analytical. He just wanted it to be descriptive and he wanted it to be the kind of thing that would sell, he saw it selling like 'The Autobiography of Malcolm X' [Malcolm X and Alex Haley], things like that. It didn't but, I mean, it's not a good book but it's all right but that's how that came to be and I wrote it ['Revolutionary Suicide,' Huey P. Newton and J. Herman Blake], like I said, but we had real conflicts. I learned things about him and about his father that he had forgotten or didn't know but he didn't want that stuff in there. Oh, it was interesting.$You were going to tell me about your experience at Tougaloo [Tougaloo College, Tougaloo, Mississippi].$$Well, Clark Kerr, the quintessential college president of the 20th century was one of my mentors, and Clark and I use the same phrase when we talk our presidencies. That is, I left my presidency the same way I entered it: fired with enthusiasm. I went to Tougaloo really wanting to focus on building an academic, intellectual community that would provide upward mobility through intellectual achievement for Mississippi students. Tougaloo was on hard times, it had suffered serious declines in enrollment and it was literally trying to buy students to come to Tougaloo. I did not realize and did not understand that many people wanted me to come to Tougaloo from the University of California [University of California, Santa Cruz, Santa Cruz, California] because they thought I would attract back to Tougaloo those outstanding, high achieving students who came to Tougaloo when they couldn't go to the University of Mississippi [Oxford, Mississippi]. That's not what I was interested in. My position was, if they can go elsewhere, they should be encouraged to go elsewhere and we should reach down in the well and bring out those who haven't been able to. This college has a historical contribution in that regard and we should reach those people and I was good at it. I had done it at Santa Cruz so that's what I wanted to do at Tougaloo. There were many people who had no interest in that kind of a mission or that kind of a vision. That was number one. I found myself up against serious financial constraints but even more, a cultural dynamic of negative self-perception that was willing to accept mediocrity, and I found that in key administrators, and I found that in the board of trustees. One of the first things I did when I got to Mississippi was I contacted the former, not the former president, the president of Alcorn State [Alcorn Agricultural and Mechanical College; Alcorn State University, Lorman, Mississippi], Herman Washington [sic. Walter Washington], who was a Tougaloo graduate and Herman Washington told me that my biggest problem at Tougaloo was going to be the believability barrier. People don't believe they can be good. Then I contacted William Winter, the former governor of Mississippi who had done so much to improve education in the state and I recruited him as a mentor with the hope, eventually, of recruiting him to join the board. He came and gave talks to my board at dinner meetings and the first thing William Winter said to me was, "Dr. Blake [HistoryMaker J. Herman Blake], your biggest challenge in Mississippi is the believability barrier," the same thing Herman Washington had said but William Winter was talking a broader context. I did not understand that, I did not understand that. If you have an opportunity to bring the resources and get people to grow, why would they not?

Charles E. Simmons

Real estate developer Charles Edward Simmons, Jr. was born an only child on December 6, 1928 on Hilton Head Island, South Carolina to Estella and Charles Edward Simmons, Sr., Gullah natives of Hilton Head Island. Simmons’ parents owned many acres of farmland, and his father was a shrewd businessman who owned the only ferry transportation service to Savannah, Georgia from Hilton Head Island before the bridge connecting Hilton Head to the mainland was built in 1956. He also operated a bus service that catered to laborers and schoolchildren.

Simmons attended elementary school in the Spanish Wells community but later would be in the last graduating class of the Penn Normal Industrial and Agricultural School on St. Helena Island. This school was begun in 1862 as an experimental program to educate Sea Island slaves freed at the beginning of the Civil War.

After graduation, Simmons was drafted into the United States Army where he served for two years. In 1952, Simmons entered South Carolina State University where he was president of the Commercial Club. He received his B.A. degree in business administration in 1956.

Simmons became the Director of the Beauford-Jasper County Equal Opportunity Commission and was the liaison between the land developers and the residents of St. John’s Island, South Carolina. While the corporation began to develop the upscale town of Kiawah, he worked to ensure employment opportunities for local residents. In 1976, Simmons went to work for Hargray Telephone Company as a technician. He then retired in 1993.

Simmons owned Simmons Properties. He was also on the Trustee Board of the Penn Center, a founding member of the Native Island Business and Community Affairs Association, Inc. (NIBCAA) and was the President of the Spanish Wells and Native Island Property Owners Association.

Simmons lived on Hilton Head Island with Rosa, his wife. They had four adult children, Charlesetta, Palmer, Greg and Benjamin.

Simmons was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on January 29, 2007.

Simmons passed away on May 26, 2016.

Accession Number

A2007.032

Sex

Male

Interview Date

1/29/2007

Last Name

Simmons

Maker Category
Middle Name

E.

Occupation
Schools

Penn Normal Industrial and Agricultural School

South Carolina State University

First Name

Charles

Birth City, State, Country

Hilton Head Island

HM ID

SIM05

Favorite Season

Spring

State

South Carolina

Favorite Vacation Destination

Jamaica, Hawaii, Cruises

Favorite Quote

None

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

South Carolina

Birth Date

12/6/1928

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Hilton Head Island

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Beans (Lima), Cornbread, Chicken, Fish

Death Date

5/26/2016

Short Description

Real estate entrepreneur and civic leader Charles E. Simmons (1928 - 2016 ) served as the director of the Beaufort-Jasper County Equal Opportunity Commission. He also acted as a liaison between the land developers and the residents of St. John’s Island, South Carolina, in the development of the upscale town of Kiawah, ensuring employment opportunities for local residents.

Employment

Sea Pines Company

Hargray Telephone Company

Beaufort-Jasper Economic Opportunity Commission

Favorite Color

Black, Gray, Khaki, Red

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Charles E. Simmons' interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Charles E. Simmons lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Charles E. Simmons describes his maternal grandparents, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Charles E. Simmons describes his maternal grandparents

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Charles E. Simmons describes his mother, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Charles E. Simmons describes his mother, pt. 2

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Charles E. Simmons describes his father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Charles E. Simmons describes Hilton Head Island's Spanish Wells community

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Charles E. Simmons describes his father

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Charles E. Simmons talks about his father's legacy

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Charles E. Simmons recalls his childhood responsibilities

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Charles E. Simmons describes his family's land on Hilton Head Island, South Carolina

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Charles E. Simmons recalls his elementary school on Hilton Head Island, South Carolina

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Charles E. Simmons recalls his childhood aspirations

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Charles E. Simmons describes Penn Normal, Industrial and Agricultural School on St. Helena Island, South Carolina, pt. 1

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Charles E. Simmons recalls his experiences at Penn Normal, Industrial and Agricultural School

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Charles E. Simmons remembers 'Randy's Record Shop Show' on WLAC Radio

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Charles E. Simmons recalls the Colored Normal, Industrial, Agricultural and Mechanical College of South Carolina

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Charles E. Simmons recalls returning to Hilton Head Island, South Carolina for holidays

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Charles E. Simmons recalls the harvest at Penn Normal, Industrial and Agricultural School

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Charles E. Simmons describes Penn Normal, Industrial and Agricultural School, pt. 2

Tape: 2 Story: 11 - Charles E. Simmons remembers his U.S. Army training

Tape: 2 Story: 12 - Charles E. Simmons recalls serving in a segregated U.S. Army unit

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Charles E. Simmons recalls his U.S. Army service in Germany

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Charles E. Simmons recalls returning to college in South Carolina

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Charles E. Simmons recalls graduating from South Carolina State College in Orangeburg

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Charles E. Simmons talks about Hilton Head Island's segregated schools

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Charles E. Simmons describes the incorporation of Hilton Head Island, South Carolina

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Charles E. Simmons describes the new infrastructure on Hilton Head Island

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Charles E. Simmons recalls the development of Hilton Head Island

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Charles E. Simmons recalls experiencing racial discrimination in Savannah, Georgia

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Charles E. Simmons recalls the lack of medical services on Hilton Head Island

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Charles E. Simmons describes the herbal remedies of Hilton Head Island

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Charles E. Simmons recalls local government officials from Hilton Head Island

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Charles E. Simmons describes his father's businesses on Hilton Head Island

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Charles E. Simmons describes the impact of development on Hilton Head Island's residents

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Charles E. Simmons talks about property taxes on Hilton Head Island

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Charles E. Simmons shares his perspective on property ownership

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Charles E. Simmons talks about the beaches on Hilton Head Island

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Charles E. Simmons describes his marriage to Rosa Simmons

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Charles E. Simmons recalls his career at Hargray Telephone Company, Inc.

Tape: 4 Story: 10 - Charles E. Simmons remembers the Beaufort-Jasper Economic Opportunity Commission

Tape: 4 Story: 11 - Charles E. Simmons describes his work for the Sea Pines Company, Inc.

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Charles E. Simmons describes his work for the Sea Pines Company, Inc.

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Charles E. Simmons describes Hilton Head Island's Sea Pines Plantation

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Charles E. Simmons recalls the Native Island Business and Community Affairs Association

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Charles E. Simmons talks about the Gullah culture

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Charles E. Simmons describes his community activities on Hilton Head Island

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Charles E. Simmons describes his concerns for the African American community

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Charles E. Simmons reflects upon his life

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Charles E. Simmons describes how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Charles E. Simmons shares a message for future generations

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - Charles E. Simmons talks about his children

Tape: 5 Story: 11 - Charles E. Simmons narrates his photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

5$2

DAStory

2$9

DATitle
Charles E. Simmons describes Hilton Head Island's Sea Pines Plantation
Charles E. Simmons recalls the harvest at Penn Normal, Industrial and Agricultural School
Transcript
Can you let me--give me a little background information on Sea Pines [Sea Pines Plantation, Hilton Head Island, South Carolina]. I know that it's a private residential community, but these were the people who actually were developing--they helped develop Hilton Head [Hilton Head Island, South Carolina] and now Kiawah [Kiawah Island, South Carolina]. Who were some of the people who were a part of this development team?$$Well, it started with Charles Fraser [Charles E. Fraser] and like--it started way back, they were the lumber people, you know, when I told you that they came with the lumber. They bought the timber right and they cut the timber, and they sold it and I guess they must have made enough money off the timber to, to really buy that part of the island that was undeveloped. And Charles Fraser--Charles was still in school then too, 'cause Charles and I finished school about the same time. And he got this idea of developing the part of the island that--what happened there were two sections. Charles Fraser and his family got Sea Pines [Hilton Head Island, South Carolina], that area, that part of the island and Fred Hack [Fred C. Hack] and his family got the north end of the island. Sea Pines [Sea Pines Company, Inc., Hilton Head Island, South Carolina] and Hilton Head Company [Hilton Head Island, South Carolina], this end of the island was known as Hilton Head Company. And out of Hilton Head Company came Port Royal Plantation [Hilton Head Island, South Carolina] and Palmetto Hall [Palmetto Hall Plantation, Hilton Head Island, South Carolina] and now it's, it's Main Street and Indigo Run. But Charles, Charles was the one that really started it the development. Sea Pines was developed long before the Hilton Head Company and the other areas. Because what Charles did while he was in school, he recruited some of his schoolmates to come down and join him in doing the development, and just like they do now. When they start a project they have everybody in place. They have their attorney, they have their engineer, they have their architect, you know, and everybody give their time and whatever. And where it would cost me out of my pocket, they have all the expertise right there. And that's how Sea Pines got developed. And, of course, he had to sell the idea of selling lots and stuff, you know, he traveled quite a bit and got people committed to buy property in Sea Pines. And, and that's what--that's how he got started.$$Okay, and the land--they just pur- he purchased the land. It was underdeveloped but these were just--this was still land that black people owned?$$No.$$No?$$Unh-uh.$$Okay.$$These were lands that they cut the timber off when they bought the timber right from, from Thorne [Langdon K. Thorne] and Loomis [Alfred L. Loomis], the people that owned the bulk of the island. And they, they usually--basically used the island just for hunting those people that really owned the bulk of the property. They would come down during the hunting season and they stayed at Honey Horn [Honey Horn Plantation, Hilton Head Island, South Carolina], you hear me mention Honey Horn. They would stay at Honey Horn, that's where they stayed when they came, you know, to do their hunting and that's all they did, so the land wasn't all that to them because they lived in New York. But they came here during the hunting season to go hunting. They hunt deer and birds and things like that, and then of course they bought the timber right and after they bought the timber right and they cut all the timber then they bought the land--$$I gotcha, okay.$$--then they started developing it.$Penn [Penn Normal, Industrial and Agricultural School, St. Helena Island, South Carolina] had--$$Try and explain, explain what it really was like, what it looked like, what was--how did it look so that we can get the idea?$$Penn, as I said earlier, was an industrial, agricultural (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) Agricultural. Um-hm.$$--and normal school. Penn has hundreds of acres of property right now but they don't farm it like they did back then. See, they had a boarding department and they grew just about all the food that they served in the boarding department. The sweet potatoes, the white potato, and the beans, and even the syrup, you know, they'd grind the cane and made syrup. And they just had a--they plant rice, you know, it was just--and the girls, what we called the harvest week, that's doing the Thanksgiving holiday, instead of letting you come home to spend the holidays at home, you'd stay at Penn and harvest the crops, you know, because come November is harvest, is usually harvest time. And, you know, we'd get a kick out of that because the girls are in the field along with us so we had fun doing what we was supposed to do. And the girls enjoyed it too because they get a chance to come out, you know, and be with the fellows. So, we had, we had a nice time. But the milk--they had their own dairy. You know, we were almost like an Amish community I guess (laughter), you know, do our, did our own things. And that's just like I said, everybody worked. You had a job. The fellows who work at the dairy, they had to get up out that bed early in the morning because the fellow who was director of the dairy, he milked the cows. Very seldom a student milked the cow, then sometime they did. But that student had to get up in the morning early enough to go down there and process that milk, bottle it and all that, and take it to the, to the dining room.$$What job did you have?$$I had two or three different jobs. Mostly my job was on the farm, I worked with a fellow who was in charge of the farm. I drove trucks and tractors, and things like that. And go with him when he has to go to town to pick up anything from town. He would take me with him so I could do the driving (laughter) because you know.