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James M. Douglas

Law professor and university president James Matthew Douglas was born on February 11, 1944 in Onalaska, Texas to Desso and Mary Douglas. He graduated from Texas Southern University in 1966 with his B.A. degree in mathematics. In 1970, Douglas received his J.D. degree from Texas Southern University’s Thurgood Marshall School Of Law, where he graduated first in his class. He went on to receive his J.S.M. degree in computer law from Stanford University in 1971.

From 1966 to 1971, Douglas worked as a computer analyst for Singer Simulation Company, a National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) contractor in Houston, Texas. In 1971, he was hired as an assistant professor of law at Texas Southern University. Douglas then worked as an assistant professor at Cleveland State University School of Law from 1972 to 1975; associate professor of law and associate dean at Syracuse University College of Law from 1975 to 1980; and professor of law at Northeastern University School of Law from 1980 to 1981. Then, in 1981, Douglas returned to Texas Southern University, where he was hired as dean and professor of law at the university’s Thurgood Marshall School of Law. He served as interim provost and senior vice president for academic affairs in 1995, and, later that year, was named president of Texas Southern University. After his presidency ended in 1999, Douglas was named a distinguished professor of law at the Thurgood Marshall School of Law. He also served as Florida A & M University’s interim dean from 2005 to 2007, and was made executive vice president of Texas Southern University in 2008.

Douglas has served on the board of directors of the Hiscock Legal Society, Gulf Coast Legal Foundation and the Law School Admission Council. He was also a member of the Minority Affairs Committee of the Law School Admission Council, served as the American Bar Association’s chairman of education for the Committee of Science and Technology Section, and was a member of The Texas Lawyer Editorial Board. He has also authored several articles that have appeared in scholarly journals.

Douglas lives in Houston, Texas and is married to Tanya Smith Douglas. He has three children: DeLicia, James and Erika.

James Douglas was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on March 4, 2014.

Accession Number

A2014.068

Sex

Male

Interview Date

3/4/2014 |and| 5/5/2014

Last Name

Douglas

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Middle Name

Matthew

Schools

Texas Southern University

Stanford University

First Name

James

Birth City, State, Country

Onalaska

HM ID

DOU06

Favorite Season

Summer

State

Texas

Favorite Vacation Destination

St. Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands

Favorite Quote

Sometimes You Have To Do What You Don’t Wanna Do In Order To Be Able To Do What You Wanna Do.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Texas

Birth Date

2/11/1944

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Houston

Country

United States

Favorite Food

None

Short Description

Law professor and university president James M. Douglas (1944 - ) served as president of Texas Southern University from 1995 to 1999.

Employment

Singer Simulation Company

Texas Southern University

Cleveland State University School of Law

Syracuse University College of Law

Northeastern University School of Law

Texas Southern University, Thurgood Marshall School of Law

Florida A&M University

Favorite Color

None

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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of James M. Douglas' interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - James M. Douglas lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - James M. Douglas explains the spelling of his mother's last name

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - James M. Douglas talks about his maternal family background

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - James M. Douglas talks about an uncle fleeing Texas for Seattle, Washington

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - James M. Douglas describes the Juneteenth celebrations in Texas

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - James M. Douglas talks about his mother's education in Onalaska, Texas

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - James M. Douglas talks about his father

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - James M. Douglas describes how his maternal family's land was seized under eminent domain

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - James M. Douglas talks about his father's education

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - James M. Douglas talks about his parents' meeting and their migration to Houston, Texas

Tape: 1 Story: 12 - James M. Douglas describes his parents' personalities and considers which parent he takes after

Tape: 1 Story: 13 - James M. Douglas lists his siblings and describes his father's perspective on education

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - James M. Douglas lists his siblings, where they went to school, and their professions, pt. 1

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - James M. Douglas lists his siblings, where they went to school, and their professions, pt. 2

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - James M. Douglas describes his earliest childhood memory

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - James M. Douglas talks about living in the predominantly white area of Kashmere Gardens in Houston, Texas

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - James M. Douglas describes the sights, sounds and smells of his childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - James M. Douglas explains his decision to attend an HBCU

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - James M. Douglas talks about his fifth grade teacher, Ms. Sledge, at Atherton Elementary School in Houston, Texas

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - James M. Douglas describes his experience at E.O. Smith Junior High School in Houston, Texas

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - James M. Douglas talks about his academic interests in elementary school

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - James M. Douglas talks about Kashmere Gardens Junior/Senior High School in Houston, Texas

Tape: 2 Story: 11 - James M. Douglas describes growing up in the Baptist church

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - James M. Douglas describes the two jobs he had growing up

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - James M. Douglas talks about his refusal to sit in a segregated waiting room at the doctor's office

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - James M. Douglas remembers sitting in the front of a segregated bus

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - James M. Douglas describes race relations in Houston, Texas during the 1950s and 1960s

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - James M. Douglas describes his childhood career aspirations

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - James M. Douglas describes the type of student he was in high school

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - James M. Douglas describes his high school extracurricular activities

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - James M. Douglas talks about the growing national interest in science during the presidential administrations of John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - James M. Douglas talks about attending an enrichment program for elementary school students at Texas Southern University in Houston, Texas

Tape: 3 Story: 10 - James M. Douglas talks about organizing a strike in high school

Tape: 3 Story: 11 - James M. Douglas talks about being forbidden from walking across the stage at his high school commencement

Tape: 3 Story: 12 - James M. Douglas talks about the honors he earned in high school

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - James M. Douglas talks about Dr. Llaryon Clarkson at Texas Southern University in Houston, Texas

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - James M. Douglas talks about the movement to integrate schools in Houston, Texas following the leadership of HistoryMaker Reverend Bill Lawson

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - James M. Douglas talks about being an outspoken campus leader, pt. 1

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - James M. Douglas talks about being an outspoken campus leader, pt. 2

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - James M. Douglas talks about being an outspoken campus leader, pt. 3

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - James M. Douglas talks about changing his major from political science to math

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - James M. Douglas describes his lack of anxiety about the possibility of being expelled for his activism

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - James M. Douglas talks about Dr. Samuel M. Nabrit, president of Texas Southern University from 1955 through 1966

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - James M. Douglas mentions HistoryMakers Bill Lawson and Pluria Marshall, Sr.

Tape: 4 Story: 10 - James M. Douglas talks about dropping out of law school, being hired at IBM, and taking a job at the Singer Company

Tape: 4 Story: 11 - James M. Douglas talks about working with computer programming languages

Tape: 4 Story: 12 - James M. Douglas talks about working at the Singer Company while completing law school

Tape: 4 Story: 13 - James M. Douglas talks about being active in the employee organization at the Singer Company

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - James M. Douglas talks about his favorite professor at Texas Southern University Law School, Eugene Harrington

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - James M. Douglas talks about completing research in computer law at Stanford University and teaching law

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - James M. Douglas talks about being asked to teach at Cleveland-Marshall College of Law in Cleveland, Ohio, pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - James M. Douglas talks about being asked to teach at Cleveland-Marshall College of Law in Cleveland, Ohio, pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - James M. Douglas explains why he left Texas Southern University Law School for Cleveland-Marshall College of Law

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - James M. Douglas talks about the first computerized legal research systems

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - James M. Douglas talks about working at Cleveland-Marshall College of Law in Cleveland, Ohio

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - James M. Douglas describes earning the respect of Dean Craig W. Christensen at Cleveland-Marshall College of Law

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - James M. Douglas explains how he became associate professor and associate dean at Syracuse University in Syracuse, New York

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - James M. Douglas explains how he connected with the dean of the Cleveland-Marshall College of Law

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - James M. Douglas talks about his relationship with former president of Texas Southern University, Dr. Granville M. Sawyer, Sr.

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - James M. Douglas talks about establishing a training program at the Singer Company

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - James M. Douglas talks about his reputation at the Singer Company

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - James M. Douglas talks briefly about his father's work ethic relative to his own

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - James M. Douglas talks about working on software systems for flight simulation

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - James M. Douglas talks about the significance in giving back to African American communities

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - James M. Douglas talks about his Master of the Science of Law (J.S.M.) degree from Stanford University in Palo Alto, California

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - James M. Douglas describes his conflict with the dean of Stanford Law School over the policies for admitting minority students, pt. 1

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - James M. Douglas describes his conflict with the dean of Stanford Law School over the policies for admitting minority students, pt. 2

Tape: 6 Story: 10 - James M. Douglas talks about being investigated by the Ronald Reagan gubernatorial administration for his student work with legal services

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - James M. Douglas explains why the dean at Cleveland-Marshall College of Law asked him to move into academic administration

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - James M. Douglas remembers working with a difficult colleague at the Singer Company, pt. 1

Tape: 7 Story: 3 - James M. Douglas remembers working with a difficult colleague at the Singer Company, pt. 2

Tape: 7 Story: 4 - James M. Douglas talks about working in administration and simultaneously teaching

Tape: 7 Story: 5 - James M. Douglas talks about deciding to join Syracuse University College of Law in Syracuse, New York

Tape: 7 Story: 6 - James M. Douglas talks about faculty and student response to his appointment as associate dean at the Syracuse University School of Law

Tape: 7 Story: 7 - James M. Douglas describes his effort to improve the Syracuse University School of Law and student opposition to his tenure appointment

Tape: 7 Story: 8 - James M. Douglas talks about negotiating with the Syracuse University administration over control of the law school library

Tape: 7 Story: 9 - James M. Douglas talks about joining the Northeastern University School of Law in Boston, Massachusetts

Tape: 8 Story: 1 - James M. Douglas talks about recruiting African American students to attend law school

Tape: 8 Story: 2 - James M. Douglas talks about technology developments in the legal sector

Tape: 8 Story: 3 - James M. Douglas talks about the Watergate Hearings in 1973, speaking with John Dean, and describes how Watergate impacted law schools

Tape: 8 Story: 4 - James M. Douglas remembers President Jimmy Carter

Tape: 8 Story: 5 - James M. Douglas talks about historically black colleges and universities (HBCUs) that have been approved by the American Bar Association

Tape: 8 Story: 6 - James M. Douglas talks about how the law school admissions formula disadvantaged students from historically black colleges and universities (HBCUs)

Tape: 8 Story: 7 - James M. Douglas talks about a study completed by the American Bar Association on minority student success in law school

Tape: 8 Story: 8 - James M. Douglas talks about Northeastern University School of Law's experiential legal education program

Tape: 8 Story: 9 - James M. Douglas describes being offered deanship at the Thurgood Marshall School of Law at Texas Southern University, pt. 1

Tape: 9 Story: 1 - James M. Douglas describes being offered deanship at the Thurgood Marshall School of Law at Texas Southern University, pt. 2

Tape: 9 Story: 2 - James M. Douglas describes the environment at the Northeastern University School of Law relative to other law schools

Tape: 9 Story: 3 - James M. Douglas shares his legal education philosophy, pt. 1

Tape: 9 Story: 4 - James M. Douglas shares his legal education philosophy, pt. 2

Tape: 9 Story: 5 - James M. Douglas describes why he enjoyed law school

Tape: 9 Story: 6 - James M. Douglas talks about issues within Northeastern University Law School's cooperative program

Tape: 9 Story: 7 - James M. Douglas talks about being considered for deanship at Northeastern University School of Law

Tape: 9 Story: 8 - James M. Douglas describes knowing beforehand that he would be hired as dean at the Thurgood Marshall School of Law at Texas Southern University

Tape: 9 Story: 9 - James M. Douglas describes the problems he encountered as dean of the Thurgood Marshall School of Law at Texas Southern University

Tape: 10 Story: 1 - James M. Douglas talks about returning to Texas Southern University in 1981 as dean of the Thurgood Marshall School of Law

Tape: 10 Story: 2 - James M. Douglas talks about the history of the Thurgood Marshall School of Law at Texas Southern University

Tape: 10 Story: 3 - James M. Douglas describes his goals as dean for the Thurgood Marshall School of Law at Texas Southern University

Tape: 10 Story: 4 - James M. Douglas talks about a dispute over the representation of Mexican American students on the academic standing and admissions committee

Tape: 10 Story: 5 - James M. Douglas describes increasing revenue at the Thurgood Marshall School of Law at Texas Southern University

Tape: 10 Story: 6 - James M. Douglas describes trying to get his improvement plans approved by the faculty at the Thurgood Marshall School of Law, pt. 1

Tape: 10 Story: 7 - James M. Douglas describes trying to get his improvement plans approved by the faculty at the Thurgood Marshall School of Law, pt. 2

Tape: 10 Story: 8 - James M. Douglas describes dealing with difficult faculty members as dean of the Thurgood Marshall School of Law at Texas Southern University

Tape: 11 Story: 1 - James M. Douglas critiques the faculty at the Thurgood Marshall School of Law under his deanship

Tape: 11 Story: 2 - James M. Douglas describes the culture of the Thurgood Marshall School of Law at Texas Southern University prior to his arrival as dean

Tape: 11 Story: 3 - James M. Douglas recalls a conversation with a student about intelligence and work ethic

Tape: 11 Story: 4 - James M. Douglas describes observing classes at the Thurgood Marshall School of Law as dean, pt. 1

Tape: 11 Story: 5 - James M. Douglas describes observing classes at the Thurgood Marshall School of Law as dean, pt. 2

Tape: 11 Story: 6 - James M. Douglas talks about gaining the support of the Texas Southern University Board of Regents chairman

Tape: 11 Story: 7 - James M. Douglas talks about students struggling to pass the bar exam due to poor study habits

Tape: 11 Story: 8 - James M. Douglas talks about the level of rigorous study that law school requires

Tape: 11 Story: 9 - James M. Douglas talks about the significance of reading comprehension and analytical skills

Tape: 11 Story: 10 - James M. Douglas talks about his effort to increase the number of required classes at the Thurgood Marshall School of Law at Texas Southern University

Tape: 12 Story: 1 - James M. Douglas talks about the governor of Texas, Mark White, publically showing his support, and president Dr. Leonard H.O. Spearman

Tape: 12 Story: 2 - James M. Douglas talks about his relationship with Dr. Leonard H.O. Spearman

Tape: 12 Story: 3 - James M. Douglas describes drafting a report on university budget cuts

Tape: 12 Story: 4 - James M. Douglas talks about Texas Southern University President Dr. Robert J. Terry's absence from the Select Committee on Higher Education

Tape: 12 Story: 5 - James M. Douglas talks about gathering support and representation for Texas Southern University before the Select Committee of Higher Education

Tape: 12 Story: 6 - James M. Douglas talks about the proposal that Texas Southern University merge with the campus of University of Houston-Downtown

Tape: 12 Story: 7 - James M. Douglas talks about the merger between Tennessee State University and the University of Tennessee at Nashville

Tape: 12 Story: 8 - James M. Douglas describes the conflict he had with Dr. William H. Harris

Tape: 13 Story: 1 - James M. Douglas talks about his disagreement with Dr. William H. Harris, over the allocation of funds to the Thurgood Marshall School of Law

Tape: 13 Story: 2 - James M. Douglas remembers his first two encounters with Texas Southern University president, Dr. Joann Horton

Tape: 13 Story: 3 - James M. Douglas describes the first big problem he handled as interim provost at Texas Southern University

Tape: 13 Story: 4 - James M. Douglas talks about becoming interim president of Texas Southern University in Houston, Texas in 1995

Tape: 13 Story: 5 - James M. Douglas explains why he wanted to be president of Texas Southern University in Houston, Texas

Tape: 13 Story: 6 - James M. Douglas talks about being appointed president of Texas Southern University in Houston, Texas

Tape: 13 Story: 7 - James M. Douglas talks about discrimination lawsuits filed by white professors against Texas Southern University in Houston, Texas, pt.1

Tape: 13 Story: 8 - James M. Douglas talks about discrimination lawsuits filed by white professors against Texas Southern University in Houston, Texas, pt.2

Tape: 14 Story: 1 - James M. Douglas talks about a study by the Law School Admissions Council on the performance of African Americans and Mexican Americans on the bar exam

Tape: 14 Story: 2 - James M. Douglas talks about possible reasons African American students do not do well on the bar exam

Tape: 14 Story: 3 - James M. Douglas talks about the loss of a lawsuit against Texas Southern University

Tape: 14 Story: 4 - James M. Douglas talks about the resolution of a separate lawsuit against Texas Southern University

Tape: 14 Story: 5 - James M. Douglas talks about the U.S. Department of Education putting Texas Southern University on a reimbursement financing plan

Tape: 14 Story: 6 - James M. Douglas talks about successfully keeping Texas Southern University out of debt, pt. 1

Tape: 14 Story: 7 - James M. Douglas talks about successfully keeping Texas Southern University out of debt, pt. 2

Tape: 14 Story: 8 - James M. Douglas talks about Texas institutions of higher education

Tape: 14 Story: 9 - James M. Douglas talks about experiencing difficulty achieving the mission for the Thurgood Marshall School of Law

Tape: 14 Story: 10 - James M. Douglas refutes claims that the State of Texas ever had to bail out Texas Southern University

Tape: 15 Story: 1 - James M. Douglas remembers a conversation with Texas Lieutenant Governor Bob Bullock

Tape: 15 Story: 2 - James M. Douglas talks about his conflict with HistoryMaker Alphonso P. Jackson

Tape: 15 Story: 3 - James M. Douglas talks about being fired as president of Texas Southern University

Tape: 15 Story: 4 - James M. Douglas talks about Willard L. Jackson

Tape: 15 Story: 5 - James M. Douglas talks about Priscilla Slade

Tape: 15 Story: 6 - James M. Douglas talks about negotiating his transition from president of Texas Southern University to teaching in the Thurgood Marshall School of Law

Tape: 15 Story: 7 - James M. Douglas talks about cases historically black colleges and universities (HBCUs) have brought against states for underfunding HBCUs

Tape: 15 Story: 8 - James M. Douglas talks about being asked to work at Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University (FAMU) in Tallahassee, Florida

Tape: 15 Story: 9 - James M. Douglas talks about faculty salaries at the Thurgood Marshall School of Law

Tape: 16 Story: 1 - James M. Douglas talks about the salaries at historically black colleges and universities

Tape: 16 Story: 2 - James M. Douglas talks about his relationship with Dr. John M. Rudley, who invited him to be executive vice president of Texas Southern University

Tape: 16 Story: 3 - James M. Douglas talks about being appointed vice president for governmental affairs and community relations at Texas Southern University

Tape: 16 Story: 4 - James M. Douglas describes the history of Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University College of Law and the Florida State University College of Law

Tape: 16 Story: 5 - James M. Douglas describes what inspired him to establish an African American art museum on Texas Southern University's campus

Tape: 16 Story: 6 - James M. Douglas talks about muralist Dr. John T. Biggers and the University Museum at Texas Southern University

Tape: 16 Story: 7 - James M. Douglas talks about his involvement in 100 Black Men, the NAACP, and the Boy Scouts

Tape: 16 Story: 8 - James M. Douglas recalls a conversation he had with a student about maintaining pro-black ideology in white environments

Tape: 16 Story: 9 - James M. Douglas talks about the Black Law Students Association [BLSA] at the Thurgood Marshall School of Law

Tape: 17 Story: 1 - James M. Douglas considers what he might have done differently

Tape: 17 Story: 2 - James M. Douglas reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 17 Story: 3 - James M. Douglas describes his hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 17 Story: 4 - James M. Douglas talks about his family, marriages and children

Tape: 17 Story: 5 - James M. Douglas describes how he would like to be remembered

DASession

1$2

DATape

3$13

DAStory

5$6

DATitle
James M. Douglas describes his childhood career aspirations
James M. Douglas talks about being appointed president of Texas Southern University in Houston, Texas
Transcript
What was your experience like at Kashmere Gardens [sic, Kashmere Junior/Senior High School, Houston, Texas]? Now you're, you're involved--your, your focused on mathematics, I guess, right. Through, throughout high school?$$I'm, I'm, I'm--I don't know if I would say focus on mathematics. I'm excellent in mathematics. That, that's what I'm good at, that's what everybody thinks I am. That's what all my teachers think I ought to be.$$Okay, okay.$$I focused on becoming a lawyer.$$Okay, so were you focused on becoming a lawyer then?$$Yes.$$Okay, so when did you, you know, get the, the, the idea that you wanted to be a lawyer?$$When people really ask me, I tell 'em it was out of ignorance. I, I arrived at law as a profession out of ignorance. And when I was in the seventh grade, up until then I, I wanted to be a philosopher.$$Now what, what prompted that?$$Because I like to think.$$Okay. Did, did you know--I mean who--I mean did you have any you know, models?$$Socrates.$$Okay.$$Aristotle, Plato.$$So you had 'em in school and you--$$That's what I wanted to be. In fact it was really funny. I, I said that one day in class and one of my student's hand went up and he said, "We have a lot in common." He said, "I majored in philosophy." And I said, "No. I didn't say I wanted to study other people's philosophy." I said, "I wanted to be a philosopher." I loved [Henry David] Thoreau. I mean I was--I, I, I loved people who thought. And so that was--I wanted to be in. But in the seventh grade I did a paper on the great philosophers of the world. And discovered that most of 'em didn't live pleasant lives 'cause people thought they were crazy. Decided I didn't want people to think I was crazy. And so I started looking around for another profession that I thought had a lot of thought and analytical process to it, and arrived at law. And so that's when I decided I wanted to be a lawyer, I was twelve years old.$$Now, now did you know any of the black lawyers in Houston [Texas]?$$Didn't know a black lawyer, didn't meet a black lawyer until I was in the ninth grade.$$Okay, and who, who was that? Who was the first one?$$The first one was Henry [E.] Doyle. And it's really funny because Henry Doyle turns out he was the first graduate of Texas Southern University School of Law [Thurgood Marshall School of Law, Houston, Texas]. But Henry Doyle was the first lawyer I met in the ninth grade. We had a career day and he came and talked to the students. The students--it was like three of us who said we wanted to be lawyers. All my teachers thought I was crazy. At first they thought I was kidding, and then they thought I was crazy because they could not understand why someone with the scientific mind that I had, would want to be a lawyer. Especially in the segregated South. And everybody told me that I would not make a living as a lawyer in the South. So everybody tried to talk me out of being a lawyer, but I was really excellent in math, and I love math. I mean I loved it as an academic discipline.$$Now what did Henry Doyle say about the law when he spoke to you--your, your group of three students?$$Henry Doyle loved the law. He was the first graduate of the law school. In fact, the story is that they were almost ready to give up on creating the law school until Henry Doyle walked in at the last minute about two or three days before they said they was gonna give up the whole--and say I wanna go to law school. Now I later found out Henry Doyle was forty years old [sic, thirty-seven years old], he was a math teacher who decided he wanted to go to law school. But he later went on not only to become the graduate, first graduate of law school, but he later went on to become a leading jurist. He was a member of one of the appellate courts, the court of appeals here in Texas and, and really made a reputation for himself as a lawyer.$$So he became a judge.$$Yes.$$Appellate court judge.$$Yes.$But when I say it's a story in itself, because after they selected [Dr. William H.] Harris, I'm out with the, chairman and he tells me, he say, "Jim, he say I'm gon' be honest with you." He said, "When [Dr. Leonard H.O.] Spearman left, the board decided that we were gonna, we were gonna bring in an outsider, so you didn't stand a chance." I said, "Then why in the hell didn't you all tell me that? You know if you all already decided that you wasn't--you were gone bring in an outsider, I wouldn't have gone through the process."$$Well probably wouldn't have been good protocol for them to, to--I don't know if, if--but you know for them to say that.$$Yeah, I, I know. But I mean they could have told me, though. I mean it wasn't like I was not their friend, have me do all that work and then say well you wasn't gone get it anyway.$$So okay, so--$$With, with Harr--with, with [Dr. Joann] Horton it was funny 'cause a board member came and took me to lunch. And he said he was taking me to lunch 'cause the board asked him to take me to lunch. They, they were really concerned that I would leave the university when I didn't get the job when, when Horton got it. And, and I told him that I wanted them to know that I was not going anywhere. My commitment was to the university, it wasn't to the board. And because the board didn't have enough sense to pick the right person, it didn't that I was gonna leave the university.$$So, so, so, so there was a search and another round of interviews in '94 (1994) to pick a new president.$$Right.$$After Jo, Jo, Joann Horton left. And this time you were picked. Do you have any idea why?$$Well what, what happened, and that's what I'm getting to.$$Yeah.$$So that was in, that was in October we have a board meeting, they decide and they ask me if I would be the interim. I said, "Yes." They tell me that they're gonna do a national search and that they understand that I'm gonna be a candidate. And so I said, "Okay." And so in the December board meeting, two months later, they immediately called an executive session and I go in and they say, "We've decided that we like for you to be the permanent president. A search is gonna be a waste of our time 'cause we not gon' find anybody any better than you. And so we can do it." So they made me the permanent president with, without a search. The problem was, and it was funny because all my friends called me and they said, "This is shocking. Because the board is Republican. Do they know how Democratic you are?" But the chair was interesting because he called himself an independent, even though he was appointed by a Republican governor.$$So now let me just ask this--what's the composition of the board, the racial composition of Texas Southern [University, Houston, Texas]?$$It's always been majority black.$$Okay.$$It's always been majority black.$$But they're mostly Republicans you say.$$They are now. See when I came to Texas, they were mostly Democrat. And, and that was a strange thing because in 1978 I think it was, Texas elected its first Republican governor after Reconstruction. And it's been cra--it was crazy for about twelve years and now we've had twelve years of all Republican governorship. Who knows if they'll ever have another Democratic in Texas. I, I'm assuming we will. But the chairman told me, he said, "Look man," he say, "I don't care about your politics." He said, "I want somebody who can really run the university, and that's all I'm, I'm really concerned about." And, and so I say that because politics control a lot of what happened during my tenure as president. But anyway, the board decides that, that they want me to become president, and so in December I accepted the position as president of the university.$$Okay, so this is December of '95 [1995], I mean '94 [1994], and then you started in '95 [1995] as president.$$Right.$$Okay.