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Joe Madison

Radio host Joe Madison was born on June 16, 1949 in Dayton, Ohio to Nancy Stone and Felix Madison. He graduated from Roosevelt High School in 1967 in Dayton. Madison enrolled at University of Wisconsin-Whitewater, in 1967, but received his B.A. degree in sociology in 1971 from Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri.

He worked in public relations at General Motors Corporation, in Detroit, Michigan from 1969 to 1970 and also worked as a statistician for the Saint Louis Cardinals football club, in St Louis, Missouri in 1970. He served as a communications associate for Mead Corporation, in Dayton, during the 1970s, and worked as associate director in urban affairs at Seymour & Lundy Associates, a public relations firm in Detroit from 1971 to 1974. Madison was selected to serve as executive director of Detroit's NAACP branch at the age of twenty four, the youngest person to be appointed to the position, serving from 1974 to 1978. Appointed by NAACP executive director Benjamin Hooks, Madison then served as NAACP national political director from 1978 to 1986. He began his broadcasting career at Detroit's WXYZ-AM radio station in 1980, and later worked at FM talk station WWDB in Philadelphia. Madison joined WWRC-AM in Washington, D.C., from 1988 to 1989 where he developed “a crossover appeal” handling issues that included race, but were aimed at the station's multicultural audience. From 1989 to 2007, he worked as a broadcaster at Radio One. In 1998, Madison left WWRC-AM to start an online chat show. He joined urban talk radio station WOL-AM, in Washington, D.C., serving as broadcaster and program director from 1999 to 2013. He joined SiriusXM in 2007. A radio talk show host and civil rights activist, widely known as “The Black Eagle,” Madison can be heard on his SiriusXM Urban View titular weekday morning show, The Joe Madison Show

Joe Madison was elected to the board of directors for the NAACP, and served from 1986 to 1999 and he also was appointed chairman of the NAACP Image Awards.

Madison and his wife Sharon have four children including Michelle, Shawna, Jason and Monesha, and five grandchildren.

Joe Madison was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on August 17, 2018.

Accession Number

A2018.158

Sex

Male

Interview Date

8/17/2018

8/17/2018 |and| 8/14/2019

Last Name

Madison

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Occupation
Organizations
Schools

Roosevelt High School

Washington University in St Louis

Jackson Elementary School

University of Wisconsin-Whitewater

First Name

Joe

Birth City, State, Country

Dayton

HM ID

MAD06

Favorite Season

Early Fall

State

Ohio

Favorite Vacation Destination

N/A

Favorite Quote

What Are You Going To Do About It?

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

District of Columbia

Birth Date

6/16/1949

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Washington

Country

United State of America

Favorite Food

None

Short Description

Radio host Joe Madison (1949- ) joined SiriusXM in 2007, hosting SiriusXM Urban View’s weekday morning show, The Joe Madison Show, as “The Black Eagle.”

Employment

Seymour & Lundy

Mead Corp.

Detroit NAACP

NAACP

WXYT-AM Detroit

WWRC-AM DC

Radio One

Sirius XM

Favorite Color

Black

Patricia Banks Edmiston

Program manager and consultant Patricia Banks Edmiston was born on April 27, 1937 in New York City to Sadie Banks and Joseph Banks. After graduating from Aquinas Academy in 1955, Edmiston enrolled at Queens College, where she studied psychology. She then completed her flight attendant certification at the Grace Downs Air Career School in New York City in 1956. Edmiston went on to earn her B.A. degree in psychology from SUNY Empire State College in 1975.

After graduating from Grace Downs Air Career School with high marks, Edmiston applied for flight attendant positions at Trans World Airlines, Mohawk Airlines, and Capital Airlines. Edmiston was informed by a chief hostess at Capital Airlines that the airlines did not hire African Americans in flight capacities. In 1956, she consulted with Adam Clayton Powell and filed a complaint against Capital Airlines with the New York State Commission Against Discrimination. In 1960, the New York State Commission Against Discrimination ruled in Edmiston’s favor, and ordered Capital Airlines to hire her within thirty days or it would go to the supreme court. Edmiston completed the Capital Airlines stewardess training program later that year, and became the first African American to work as a flight attendant on a commercial airline for a southern carrier for Capital Airlines in 1960. However, she resigned one year later to pursue her education. She went on to work as a counselor at the Addicts Rehabilitation Center in New York City from 1970 to 1972. She was then hired as a program manager on the New York City Manpower Planning Council. In 1974, Edmiston became a program manager at the New York State Office of Alcohol and Substance Abuse Services. She then returned to the Addicts Rehabilitation Center in 1999, serving as a consultant until 2015. Edmiston also worked with American Airlines Medical Wings International from 2000 to 2002 providing medical services to underserved populations around the world.

Edmiston served on the board of directors for the Black Flight Attendants of America Incorporated. She also served as captain of the disaster team for the American Red Cross from 1999 to 2001. Edmiston was inducted into the Black Aviation Hall of Fame at the National Civil Rights Museum in Memphis, Tennessee in August 2010.

She also holds a black belt in Shotokan martial arts.

Edmiston has two children, Sherman III and Lisa, and seven grandchildren.

Patricia Banks Edmiston was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on April 26, 2018.

Accession Number

A2018.081

Sex

Female

Interview Date

4/26/2018

Last Name

Edmiston

Maker Category
Schools

Queens College, City University of New York

State University of New York / Empire State College

New York University

First Name

Patricia

Birth City, State, Country

New York

HM ID

EDM06

Favorite Season

Spring

State

New York

Favorite Vacation Destination

Aruba

Favorite Quote

Live Today As If You're Going To Die Tomorrow And Learn As If You're Going To Live Forever.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

New York

Birth Date

4/27/1937

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

New York

Favorite Food

Baked Chicken Wings

Short Description

Program manager and consultant Patricia Banks Edmiston (1937 - ) became one of the first African American flight attendants to work for Capital Airlines in 1960. She went on to work in the substance abuse rehabilitation field for over thirty-five years.

Employment

ARC Addicts Rehab Center

New York State Office of Alcohol and Substance Abuse

New York City Manpower Planning Council

Addicts Rehab Center

Capital Airlines

Con Edison

Favorite Color

Orange, Purple

Mütter Evans

Radio station owner Mütter D. Evans was born in Williamston, North Carolina to Dallas Bryant and Mable C. Evans. Evans was raised in the late 1950s in rural eastern North Carolina. In 1971, she enrolled in Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. While there, she worked at the university’s radio station, and in her junior year, she was hired as an intern for the WAAA-AM radio station in Winston-Salem. She graduated from Wake Forest University in 1975 with her B.S. degree in speech communications and theatre arts.

Upon graduation, Evans returned to WAAA as its news and public affairs director. In three years, she was promoted to executive vice president and general manager, with an option to buy the station. In 1979, Evans purchased WAAA from Media Broadcasting Corporation for $1.04 million, making her the youngest and second African American woman to own a broadcast property in the United States. She also initiated the Annual Noon Hour Commemoration of the birthday of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. in Winston-Salem, five years before the first national holiday. The commemoration is one of the oldest Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. memorial events in the United States.

Evans, who also served as president and general manager of WAAA, sold the station in the 2000s. She later established Mütter D. Evans Communications, a firm that provides assistance in the areas of management, marketing, and public relations. In addition, she served as an adjunct instructor at Winston-Salem State University, where she taught courses in mass communications for over a decade.

Evans wrote a retrospect essay for the History of Wake Forest University, Volume V, 1967-1983 and was featured in the book Jewels: 50 Phenomenal Black Women Over 50 by Michael Cunningham and Connie Briscoe. She served on the governing council of the Quality Education Institute, and on the Business Advisory Council of Winston-Salem State University. Evans has also served on national or local boards for the Quality Education Academy, Arts Council, United Way of Forsyth County, Triad Cultural Arts, Winston Lake Family YMCA, American Red Cross, Wake Forest University Alumni Council, and the Winston-Salem State University Foundation. She was also a charter board member and graduate of Leadership Winston-Salem, and a member of the National Association of Black Owned Broadcasters for many years.

She has received awards from the City of Winston-Salem, Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity, Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Liberian Organization of the Piedmont, New Bethel Baptist Church's Race and Progress Committee, Alpha Mu Sigma Chapter of Sigma Gamma Rho Sorority, Inc., Rho Zeta Chapter of Zeta Phi Beta Sorority, Inc., the Winston-Salem Human Relations Commission, the Winston-Salem NAACP, Winston Lake YMCA, the United Negro College Fund, Morehouse College and Clark-Atlanta University. Evans has been named “Woman of the Year” by the Winston-Salem Chronicle, and was included as one of Black Enterprise magazine’s “30 Up and Coming Young Leaders.”

Mütter Evans was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on August 15, 2014.

Accession Number

A2014.177

Sex

Female

Interview Date

8/15/2014

Last Name

Evans

Maker Category
Middle Name

D

Occupation
Schools

Wake Forest University

Search Occupation Category
First Name

Mutter

Birth City, State, Country

Williamston

HM ID

EVA08

State

North Carolina

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

North Carolina

Birth Date

4/7/1953

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Winston-Salem

Country

United States

Short Description

Radio station owner Mütter Evans (1953 - ) became the youngest and second African American woman to own a broadcast property in the United States when she purchased Winston-Salem, North Carolina’s WAAA-AM in 1979.

Employment

WAAA-AM

Mutter D. Evans Communications

Winston-Salem State University

Charles Warfield, Jr.

Broadcasting executive Charles M. Warfield, Jr. was born in in Washington, D.C. in 1949. Warfield attended Hampton University and graduated from there with his B.S. degree in accounting in 1971.

Upon graduating, Warfield began his career as a staff auditor at Ernst & Young, and then joined RCA Corporation as supervising senior auditor in 1974. Warfield’s broadcasting career includes managing some of New York City’s top radio stations including twelve years at Inner City Broadcasting Corporation (ICBC). He joined ICBC as a corporate controller and was promoted to vice president and general manager of WBLS-FM and WLIB-AM Radio. Warfield was later hired at Summit Broadcasting Corporation, where he served as vice president and general manager of WRKS-FM Radio in New York City.

In July of 1997, Warfield was appointed as the vice president and general manager of heritage stations at WDAS-AM/FM in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He later became the senior vice president of urban regional operations for Chancellor Media Corporation in March of 1998, with oversight of KKBT-FM in Los Angeles, California; WJLB-FM and WMXD-FM in Detroit, Michigan; WGCI-AM/FM and WVAZ-FM in Chicago, Illinois; WUSL-FM and WDAS-FM in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; and WEDR-FM in Miami, Florida. Warfield was promoted to senior vice president of regional operations in October of 1998, and assumed responsibility for Chancellor Media Corporation’s thirty stations in Chicago, Cleveland, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Miami and Puerto Rico. From 1997 to 2003, Warfield served as senior vice president of regional operations for AMFM, Inc.; and, from 2000 to 2012, he served as vice president and chief operating officer of Inner City Broadcasting Holdings, Inc. In October of 2012, Warfield was named president and chief operating officer of YMF Media, LLC.

In 2009, Warfield was elected president of the Metropolitan Kalamazoo Branch of the NAACP. The following year, he was appointed as the chairman for the National Association of Broadcasters board of directors. He also served on the Radio Advertising Bureau Executive Committee. Warfield’s community involvement includes organizations such as the American Red Cross, the National Urban League, the Salvation Army, the United Negro College Fund, the Partnership for a Drug Free Greater New York and the Harlem Young Men’s Christian Association. In 2010, Warfield received the National Radio Award from the National Association of Broadcasters.

Charles M. Warfield Jr. was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on December 9, 2013.

Accession Number

A2013.281

Sex

Male

Interview Date

12/9/2013

Last Name

Warfield

Maker Category
Marital Status

Married

Middle Name

Morris

Occupation
Schools

Hampton University

James G. Birney Elementary School

Kramer Middle School

Thurgood Marshall Academy

Anacostia High School

Search Occupation Category
First Name

Charles

Birth City, State, Country

Washington

HM ID

WAR17

Favorite Season

Spring

State

District of Columbia

Favorite Vacation Destination

Saint Martin

Favorite Quote

Straight Talk Makes For $Straight Understanding

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

New York

Birth Date

9/10/1949

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

New York

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Fried Chicken

Short Description

Broadcast executive Charles Warfield, Jr. (1949 - ) served as president and chief operating officer of ICBC Broadcast Holdings, Inc., and as vice president and general manager of WBLS-FM and WLIB-AM Radio.

Employment

Ernst & Young

RCA Corporation

Inner City Broadcasting Corporation, Inc.

WBLS Radio

WLIB Radio

Summit Broadcasting Corporation/WRKS-FM

WDAS Radio

Chancellor Media Corporation

AMFM, Inc.

YMF Media, LLC

Medger Evers College

Uptown Records

Favorite Color

Black, Red

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Charles Warfield, Jr.'s interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Charles Warfield, Jr. lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Charles Warfield, Jr. describes his father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers his father's death

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Charles Warfield, Jr. recalls spending the summers in Rappahannock County, Virginia

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Charles Warfield, Jr. describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Charles Warfield, Jr. describes his mother's personality

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Charles Warfield, Jr. lists his siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Charles Warfield, Jr. describes his earliest childhood memory

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Charles Warfield, Jr. describes the sights, sounds and smells of his childhood

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Charles Warfield, Jr. recalls his early responsibilities

Tape: 1 Story: 12 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers his brother with Down syndrome

Tape: 1 Story: 13 - Charles Warfield, Jr. recalls his relationship with his twin brothers

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers his early education

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Charles Warfield, Jr. recalls his early experiences of religion

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers lessons from his father

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Charles Warfield, Jr. describes his family's holiday traditions

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers his childhood hobbies

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Charles Warfield, Jr. recalls his experiences at Kramer Junior High School in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers Anacostia High School in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers his early academic interests

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Charles Warfield, Jr. recalls his start at the Hampton Institute in Hampton, Virginia

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Charles Warfield, Jr. describes his decision to major in accounting

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers the student protests at the Hampton Institute in Hampton, Virginia

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Charles Warfield, Jr. talks about the closure of the Hampton Institute in 1971

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Charles Warfield, Jr. reflects upon his time at the Hampton Institute

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Charles Warfield, Jr. recalls his decision not to live in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Charles Warfield, Jr. talks about his work at S.D. Leidesdorf and Company

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Charles Warfield, Jr. recalls his work at the RCA Corporation

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers joining the staff of Medgar Evers College in Brooklyn, New York

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Charles Warfield, Jr. describes his career advice to African American youth

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers his transition to the broadcast industry

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers his interview at the Inner City Broadcasting Corporation

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Charles Warfield, Jr. recalls his duties at the Inner City Broadcasting Corporation

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers his coworkers at the Inner City Broadcasting Corporation

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Charles Warfield, Jr. talks about the influence of radio deejays

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers Frankie Crocker

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Charles Warfield, Jr. describes his role in station acquisitions at the Inner City Broadcasting Corporation

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Charles Warfield, Jr. talks about his contributions to the African American community

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Charles Warfield, Jr. recalls his promotion to vice president and general manager of the Inner City Broadcasting Corporation

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers developing the Inner City Broadcasting Corporation's human resources system

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Charles Warfield, Jr. talks about the process of acquiring a radio station

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Charles Warfield, Jr. describes the challenges of managing a nationwide media company

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Charles Warfield, Jr. describes the impact of recessions on the black radio industry

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Charles Warfield, Jr. talks about the Quiet Storm radio format

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers the competitors to the Inner City Broadcasting Corporation

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Charles Warfield, Jr. recalls his decision to leave the Inner City Broadcasting Corporation, pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Charles Warfield, Jr. recalls his decision to leave the Inner City Broadcasting Corporation, pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Charles Warfield, Jr. reflects upon his decision to join WRKS Radio

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remember Barry A. Mayo

Tape: 6 Story: 2 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers developing the audience of WRKS Radio

Tape: 6 Story: 3 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers his changes at WRKS Radio

Tape: 6 Story: 4 - Charles Warfield, Jr. talks about his career at WRKS Radio

Tape: 6 Story: 5 - Charles Warfield, Jr. recalls his departure from WRKS Radio

Tape: 6 Story: 6 - Charles Warfield, Jr. describes his attempts to invest in a radio station

Tape: 6 Story: 7 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers working for Uptown Records

Tape: 6 Story: 8 - Charles Warfield, Jr. talks about Uptown Records

Tape: 6 Story: 9 - Charles Warfield, Jr. recalls joining the Chancellor Media Corporation

Tape: 6 Story: 10 - Charles Warfield, Jr. recalls managing the Chancellor Media Corporation's urban radio stations

Tape: 7 Story: 1 - Charles Warfield, Jr. talks about the longevity of WVON Radio

Tape: 7 Story: 2 - Charles Warfield, Jr. talks about the role of syndication in the radio business

Tape: 7 Story: 3 - Charles Warfield, Jr. talks about the importance of community relationships in the radio business

Tape: 7 Story: 4 - Charles Warfield, Jr. describes his experiences as senior vice president of the Chancellor Media Corporation

Tape: 7 Story: 5 - Charles Warfield, Jr. recalls his return to the Inner City Broadcasting Corporation

Tape: 7 Story: 6 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers the financial crisis of 2008

Tape: 7 Story: 7 - Charles Warfield, Jr. talks about changes in the radio market

Tape: 7 Story: 8 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers the introduction of the portable people meter

Tape: 7 Story: 9 - Charles Warfield, Jr. talks about competition from satellite radio

Tape: 8 Story: 1 - Charles Warfield, Jr. recalls serving on the executive committee of the National Association of Broadcasters

Tape: 8 Story: 2 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers the conflict between Cathy Hughes and Dionne Warwick

Tape: 8 Story: 3 - Charles Warfield, Jr. talks about the bankruptcy of the Inner City Broadcasting Corporation

Tape: 8 Story: 4 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers the divestiture of the Inner City Broadcasting Corporation's assets

Tape: 8 Story: 5 - Charles Warfield, Jr. describes the underrepresentation of African American radio executives

Tape: 8 Story: 6 - Charles Warfield, Jr. talks about the dissolution of the Inner City Broadcasting Corporation

Tape: 8 Story: 7 - Charles Warfield, Jr. talks about his plans for the future

Tape: 8 Story: 8 - Charles Warfield, Jr. talks about the future of black broadcasting

Tape: 9 Story: 1 - Charles Warfield, Jr. remembers his contributions to the broadcasting industry

Tape: 9 Story: 2 - Charles Warfield, Jr. describes his hopes and concerns for African Americans in the radio industry

Tape: 9 Story: 3 - Charles Warfield, Jr. talks about the future of the radio industry

Tape: 9 Story: 4 - Charles Warfield, Jr. reflects upon his career

Tape: 9 Story: 5 - Charles Warfield, Jr. reflects upon his legacy

Tape: 9 Story: 6 - Charles Warfield, Jr. reflects upon his success

Tape: 9 Story: 7 - Charles Warfield, Jr. narrates his photographs, pt. 1

Tape: 9 Story: 8 - Charles Warfield, Jr. narrates his photographs, pt. 2

DASession

1$1

DATape

4$6

DAStory

2$10

DATitle
Charles Warfield, Jr. recalls his duties at the Inner City Broadcasting Corporation
Charles Warfield, Jr. recalls managing the Chancellor Media Corporation's urban radio stations
Transcript
Can you describe the organization you're coming into; and who, who some of the key players are, and, and what--because at this point--let's see--Inner City [Inner City Broadcasting Corporation] began--I thought it began in (simultaneous)--$$ (Simultaneous) Began in '72 [1972] with--$$It's--$$ --the AM--'74 [1974] with the FM [WBLS Radio, New York, New York], and by '75 [1975], '76 [1976], going into '77 [1977], FM had overtaken AM as the primary band for entertainment on the radio. And I was a bit star struck when I--when I first went into the company. I had--you're listening to the radio in New York City [New York, New York], and I listened to a lot of radio. And I'm, I'm here with the home of Frankie Crocker and Ken Webb and [HistoryMaker] Vy Higginsen on the air. It's--this is Percy Sutton's company. This is a high profile job opportunity in New York City. So you're, you're struck with that. You have the artists that come through the radio station that you would see from time to time coming to pay homage quite honestly to the man, Frankie Crocker. There was also [HistoryMaker] Hal Jackson, who was there as a vice chairman of the country--company. And Pepe--Pierre--Percy Sutton, who was running for mayor of New York City against Ed Koch, was in and out. And Charles Rangel [HistoryMaker Charles B. Rangel] was in and out; and [HistoryMaker] Basil Paterson was in and out. And, and these kinds of people were in the environment all the time. David Lampel, who was the news director--people that you would hear on the radio, and now I'm here in this company, and it--yeah, it made--it made me feel very good. It was an important job, but then the reality of the work that you're facing, you know, sort of hits you in the face and says you got a real job here. All this was before computers. Records were maintained on handwritten cards, receivable cards. Human error was involved. They had a manual system for putting commercials on the air. And once the commercial ran--getting the commercial on an invoice and being billed, and how they handled the collection of money and offsets against accounts receivable, and, and the, the manual--our means of processing checks. There was a real need for the job at that point, and I embraced that, and I--and I worked hard as I was taught to always do--gained the confidence of, of people. One thing I learned at this point--and I, I guess I was learning it along the way is that I'm very good at the numbers; I understand the numbers; I can explain the numbers, but I wanted more in my life. I also had an interest in engaging with people. I wanted to learn the business, but I wanted to do more than be in the--the bean counter that's upstairs or downstairs or around the corner in accounting. And prep--Percy Sutton, when he lost the race for mayor and came into the company as chairman of the company, began to give me more and more responsibility and respect and, and counted on me. In the first year I was there I spent working with a consultant to the company, had engaged to raise money to buy radio stations in other cities, which was a very difficult thing to do in 1977 because African Americans--one you're in radio; you--it's a business you don't know because the entrepreneurs in radio at that point were successful business people in either arenas who are now investing in radio were not seasoned broadcasters, and they were surrounded by seasoned broadcasters. So we didn't have a lot of confidence in financial institutions to lend us money. But the first year I was there working with a consultant we were able to convince Citibank [Citibank, N.A.] to lend the company $15 million, which in 1978 allowed the company to buy an FM station in Detroit [Michigan], an AM/FM station in San Francisco [California], and an AM/FM station in Los Angeles [California] and get change back. Now today, you can't buy WLIB [WLIB Radio] in New York today for anything approaching--uh, maybe $15 million today you possibly could, but there's a valuation today that's totally different from what it was in, in those days. But I gained the confidence of, of Dorothy Brunson and, and Percy Sutton at that point, and he allowed me to learn more about the business and become more involved in, in other aspects and ultimately appointed me as the vice president and general manager of Inner City Broadcasting [Inner City Broadcasting Corporation] in 1981, replacing his son [HistoryMaker Pierre Sutton], who was de facto in that position and had been in that position when Dorothy Brunson left to run her own company. I will always be thankful to Inner City Broadcasting, to Percy Sutton. I don't believe that had I been a controller working for CBS or NBC or, or the other broadcast companies I would have ever been given an opportunity. And I've never taken that for granted, giving me the opportunity to learn the business. As I say, I learned the business from the bottom up. I learned the business from a P and L [profit and loss] perspective: here's how much money we're gonna make but understanding well, how do we get there? And it's because of the trust that he in- that he showed in me during my tenure there with Inner City Broadcasting.$One of the challenges--and, and I--and I take this seriously, with being one of the few African Americans given the opportunities that I've been given in this industry, I have to speak on behalf of those that did not get the opportunity that I have. I have to speak on behalf of the communities that we serve. And when I started with this company, I mentioned that it grew from roughly twenty-five stations to ninety-six. And they had a staff meeting in Phoenix, Arizona, where they brought in the managers of all of all ninety-six of their radio operations. Six of us were African American out of these ninety-six managers. And I'm--and I'm in the room, and there's six people whose careers I followed-- Verna Greene in Detroit [Michigan]; [HistoryMaker] Jerry Rushin in Miami [Florida]. There was not an African American in, in Phila- in Los Angeles [California]. I'm running DAS [WDAS Radio, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania] AM and FM. Chester Schofield was running Power [WUSL Radio] in Philadelphia [Pennsylvania]. [HistoryMaker] Marv Dyson was running GCI [WGCI Radio] in, in MXD [WMXD Radio, Detroit, Michigan]--I mean, GCI in--$$In Chicago [Illinois].$$ --in Chicago. Legendary individuals in this business, very successful in their own right, and they're all under this umbrella of Chancellor Media [Chancellor Media Corporation] at this point. In '98 [1998], I was approached by Jimmy deCastro as to whether I would be interested in overseeing the urban properties. Because I'm challenging them every opportunity I get, why aren't there more qualified African Americans that you can hire to run some of these radio properties, not just urban. I can run more than urban. That's what I run; that's what I'm comfortable with; that's what I been challenged to do and I've been successful at, but there need--there's the need for more diversity here. And you, you--if you're in the room where you can have the conversation, you have a responsibility to have the conversation. They gave me an opportunity for about six months to oversee the urban operations, so I was not only running DAS AM and FM in Philly, I was also over Power in Philadelphia. I was overseeing EDR [WEDR Radio, Miami, Florida] in Miami [Florida], Marv's stations in Chicago, ZAK [WZAK Radio] in, in Cleveland [Ohio]--there are two stations in Cleveland--the Beat [KKBT Radio; KRRL Radio] in L.A. [Los Angeles, California]. I had--we had ten of the top urban radio stations in America under Chancellor Media that I had an opportunity to be involved with. In my, my under--what I do, I don't tell them how to run their radio stations. I can't tell Marv Dyson how to run a radio station. He's been doing that successfully for more years than I have. It's how do we help bring resources to help these stations continue to grow under the banner of Chancellor Media? And from there a few months later with some corporate changes, I was given an opportunity to, to drop the urban operations title, and I took on a cluster of thirty radio stations for Chancellor Media, AMFM [AMFM, Inc.], which concluded all of their stations in Chicago, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Atlanta [Georgia], Miami, and Puerto Rico. So I had a thirty station region that I was responsible for which was all different types of formats--$$That's--$$ -- (Unclear) (simultaneous)--$$--(simultaneous)huge then. So what--how long did you do that?$$ I did that for about a year and a half, until the announced merger with, with Clear Channel [Clear Channel Communications, Inc.]. And I had an opportunity to stay with the company or to leave; and I exercised an option to leave (simultaneous).$$(Simultaneous) To leave (audio disturbance).

Jacqulyn Shropshire

Civic leader and non-profit executive Jacqulyn Shropshire was born on September 15, 1935 in Kansas City, Missouri. She was the first member of her family to attend college, and graduated from Lincoln University in Jefferson City, Missouri in 1957 with her B.S. degree in business and economics.

Upon graduation, Shropshire was hired by Trans World Airlines, where she became the company’s first African American employee in an administrative position. Shropshire then worked as a teacher in the Kansas City public school system until 1961, when she married Thomas B. Shropshire and moved to New York. She went on to receive her M.A. degree in education from Hunter College, and was hired as a teacher in the New York City public school system. Then, in 1968, Shropshire moved with her husband to Lagos, Nigeria, where she helped organize the first American Women’s Club, and also founded Fancy That, a newsletter for women.

In 1972, Shropshire’s family moved from Nigeria to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, where she began thirty years of service with the Milwaukee Urban League, first as a volunteer, and then as executive director. Shropshire also founded and served as president of Momentum Unlimited of Milwaukee, a firm specializing in management development, public relations and special event planning. In 2003, she organized and became board chairman of the Las Vegas Urban League, and, in 2012, she helped establish The Smith Center for the Performing Arts in Las Vegas, Nevada.

Shropshire has served on the boards of the Milwaukee Urban League, University of Wisconsin (Milwaukee); Women’s Business Initiative Corporation (YWCA); The Next Door Foundation; American Red Cross; National Endowment for the Arts Advisory Committee; Milwaukee Historical Society; Greater Milwaukee Convention and Visitors Bureau; African World Festival; Inner City Arts Council; The Curative Workshop of Milwaukee; the Joint Center of Political Studies in Washington, D.C.; and The Smith Center for the Performing Arts. She also organized the first African American debutante cotillion with Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc., and was the first African American female corporate chairman of Wisconsin for the United Negro College Fund.

Shropshire has received numerous awards for her civic work, including the Caucus of African Americans Trailblazer Award; the Alpha Kappa Alpha Outstanding Contributions to the Black Family Award; the Sigma Pi Phi Fraternity (The Boulé) Judge William “Turk” Thompson Legacy Award; the Las Vegas–Clark County Black History Visionary Award; and the E-Vibe Phenomenal Woman Award. She was also named “A Woman of Excellence” by the Alpha Kappa Alpha Educational Advancement Foundation. In 2001, the General Assembly of the State of Tennessee passed a resolution naming a Jacqulyn C. Shropshire Family Literacy Center in Memphis, Tennessee at the Goodwill International School for Boys and Girls.

Jacqulyn Shropshire was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on November 25, 2013.

Accession Number

A2013.349

Sex

Female

Interview Date

11/25/2013

Last Name

Shropshire

Maker Category
Marital Status

Widow

Schools

Lincoln University

Hunter College

Lincoln High School

Garrison School

First Name

Jacqulyn

Birth City, State, Country

Kansas City

HM ID

SHR01

Favorite Season

Fall

State

Missouri

Favorite Vacation Destination

Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts

Favorite Quote

Lets Get It On.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Nevada

Birth Date

9/15/1935

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Las Vegas

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Fried Chicken

Short Description

Civic leader and non-profit executive Jacqulyn Shropshire (1935 - ) served as executive director of the Milwaukee Urban League. In Las Vegas, Nevada she founded the Las Vegas Urban League; and was a founding board member of the Smith Center for the Performing Arts.

Employment

Trans World Airlines

Kansas City Public School System

New York City Public School System

Milwaukee Urban League

Fancy That

Momentum Unlimited of Milwaukee

Favorite Color

Black

Timing Pairs
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DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Jacqulyn Shropshire's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Jacqulyn Shropshire lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Jacqulyn Shropshire describes her father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Jacqulyn Shropshire describes her mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Jacqulyn Shropshire talks about her maternal family's relation to Strom Thurmond, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Jacqulyn Shropshire remembers her neighborhood in Kansas City, Missouri

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Jacqulyn Shropshire describes the sights, sounds and smells of her childhood

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Jacqulyn Shropshire lists her aunts and brothers

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Jacqulyn Shropshire remembers visiting Cedartown, Georgia

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Jacqulyn Shropshire describes her upbringing

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Jacqulyn Shropshire remembers her church in Kansas City, Missouri

Tape: 1 Story: 12 - Jacqulyn Shropshire describes her early education

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Jacqulyn Shropshire talks about her family's emphasis on education

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Jacqulyn Shropshire recalls her early exposure to the Urban League of Kansas City

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Jacqulyn Shropshire describes her community in Kansas City, Missouri

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Jacqulyn Shropshire remembers Lincoln University in Jefferson City, Missouri

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Jacqulyn Shropshire recalls being hired at Trans World Airlines in Kansas City, Missouri

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Jacqulyn Shropshire remembers meeting her husband

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Jacqulyn Shrosphire remembers her courtship with her husband

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Jacqulyn Shropshire remembers moving to New York City

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Jacqulyn Shropshire describes her experiences in Lagos, Nigeria, pt. 1

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Jacqulyn Shropshire reflects upon her experiences in Nigeria

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Jacqulyn Shropshire remembers the death of Whitney Young

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Jacqulyn Shropshire talks about her husband's career

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Jacqulyn Shropshire describes her experiences in Lagos, Nigeria, pt. 2

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Jacqulyn Shropshire remembers moving to Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Jacqulyn Shropshire recalls joining the Milwaukee Urban League

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Jacqulyn Shropshire describes her work with the Milwaukee Urban League

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Jacqulyn Shropshire talks about the Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc. Debutante Cotillion

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Jacqulyn Shropshire describes her experiences in Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Jacqulyn Shropshire talks about her husband's relationship with Virgis Colbert

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Jacqulyn Shropshire remembers the founding of the African World Festival in Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Jacqulyn Shropshire talks about her children's education

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Jacqulyn Shropshire remembers moving to Las Vegas, Nevada

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Jacqulyn Shropshire recalls the founding of the Smith Center for the Performing Arts in Las Vegas, Nevada

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Jacqulyn Shropshire talks about her donation to the Smith Center for the Performing Arts

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Jacqulyn Shropshire describes her community in Las Vegas, Nevada

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Jacqulyn Shropshire talks about her children

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Jacqulyn Shropshire talks about her philanthropy

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Jacqulyn Shropshire describes her hopes and concerns for the black community in Las Vegas, Nevada

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Jacqulyn Shropshire reflects upon her and her husband's legacy

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Jacqulyn Shropshire talks about her maternal family's relation to Strom Thurmond, pt. 2

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Jacqulyn Shropshire talks about Cedartown, Georgia

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Jacqulyn Shropshire narrates her photographs, pt. 1

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Jacqulyn Shropshire narrates her photographs, pt. 2

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Jacqulyn Shropshire narrates her photographs, pt. 3

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$4

DAStory

6$6

DATitle
Jacqulyn Shropshire remembers meeting her husband
Jacqulyn Shropshire recalls the founding of the Smith Center for the Performing Arts in Las Vegas, Nevada
Transcript
You taught for maybe several years. Now how did you meet Tom [Thomas B. Shropshire]?$$Well Tom was traveling with Ebony Fashion Fair at the time with Miller Brewing Company and they always had a dress in the fair. I don't know you know, they always sponsored someone who had one of these beautiful dresses on. I had--I was teaching school [at Booker T. Washington School, Kansas City, Missouri], but Tom was ten years ahead of me and his classmate was also a friend of mine; we all taught together at the same school. So when they came in to do the f- Ebony Fashion Fair, I can't think of my girlfriend's name now, but she passed, she said, "Listen we have a friend coming in for the Fashion Fair. Would you like to go out with us?" So I said, "Oh, no, I gotta go home, work to do," and stuff like that. They said, "Oh, Jacquie [HistoryMaker Jacqulyn Shropshire] you need to get out. Come on, go to the Fashion Fair." So I went to the Fashion Fair, I saw Tom and just right away, you know our personalities just clicked. And we, Tom was (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) Just right away?$$Well you know Tom had the kind of personality that you loved him or you hated him; there was nothing in between. But Tom had su- so much fun and then afterward we all went out to dinner and what have you. Now the other two girls are married. I'm not, so they said, "Well you know you and Tom should go to dinner or you and Tom should get to know each other," because they knew each other very well. So I say, "Oh yeah, okay." So I didn't think any more about it. Then the next thing I knew that Tom was calling and said that they would be in town and would I, would I have dinner with him. So I said okay, all right, I'll do that; and then I didn't hear from Tom for a long time. And at the time he was in Brooklyn [New York], you know, they were what they call paper hangers at that time, putting signs up. And you know, we just kind of communicated back and forth and back and forth; and then finally he was, he was going to I think Africa, or going someplace, Africa, so he sent my engagement ring through the mail. He asked me if I would marry him, and I said yes. And he sent my ring through the mail (laughter). I mean that, that's Tom.$Can you talk about your work with the Smith Center [Smith Center for the Performing Arts, Las Vegas, Nevada] 'cause I was very impre- you know, 'cause this is what you're starting to talk about that, you know, having Las Vegas [Nevada] establish a life outside of the Strip [Las Vegas Strip]?$$Um-hm.$$So tell me what, what the Smith Center is? Because--?$$Well when I first moved to Las Vegas, you know, I started the Urban League [Las Vegas Urban League] and we did all of that. And then once everything got started everything was fine, so finally Tommy [Thomas B. Shropshire, Jr.] or Teri [Terilyn Shropshire]--somebody said, "Give my mom something to do." Be sure she has something to do, so I knew that my mother [Bernice Thurman Goodwin] was a light opera singer and she never had the time or the place to sing, so--because Tommy's client was MGM, one of the guys who was involved with thinking about the Smith Center said okay we'll find something for her to do. So they came and they sat over here, and they said, "We want you to be on the board at the Smith Center and we're just starting it out, and we have--we don't have anything--we don't even have a plan yet. We're starting from scratch, but we want you to be involved." So I said okay, you know, I didn't have anything else to do. So we met constantly just talking about the Smith Center. Just thinking about what it's gonna look like and how it's gonna be built. I was with them from the architectural committee all the way through putting the last brick, and as a matter of fact, I have a picture of the last nail that went in over there. It gave me something to do. It gave me an outlet that I felt that we could do a lot of things that we didn't have to do on the Strip, that we could have entertainment, you know, that does not have to be inside of a casino; and there were a lot of things that we could do. So I was the only black and there were only two females on the architectural committee. So we, we have followed all the way through, from beginning to the end. And I'm very proud of that. That is one of the things that--a legacy that I'm very proud of.$$So, the chairman was Don Snyder [Donald Snyder]--$$Yeah.$$--right? And then there was Keith Boman, and Kim Sinatra, and Edward [ph.], and Jacobs [Gary Jacobs] and--so a whole host of people.$$They were on, they were on the architectural committee.$$They were on the architectural committee.$$Um-hm.$$I see, they weren't on the board?$$Not at that time.$$Okay.$$They're on the board now.$$Okay. I see. And then this name comes from--it's named in honor of Fred [Fred Smith] and Mary Smith, right?$$Um-hm.$$So you had to figure out as a group how to raise money, you know, where the money was gonna come from. In fact, I understand that you donated yourself a large sum of money, right?$$Yeah, we all agreed--and we knew going in how much money it was gonna cost. The people on the board--a lot of the people came in after it was built. But we had an architectural committee and we found it and we went out and we solicited people we knew who had money and was willing to put up enough for us build a cultural center and they did--I mean they came from every place. At first, we had--I think I was number sixteen if you see the wall, I'm number sixteen--that grew it into what it is. And now, you know, it speaks for itself.

Karen Hastie Williams

Karen Hastie Williams was born on September 30, 1944 in Washington, D.C. to Beryl and William H. Hastie, Jr. Her father was the first African American federal judge appointed to the bench of the Federal District Court in the U.S. Virgin Islands and became the first African American Governor of the U.S. Virgin Islands in 1946. In 1949, he was appointed to the Third United States Circuit Court of Appeals, where he would serve for twenty-one years. Judge William H. Hastie along with Charles Hamilton Houston, Thurgood Marshall, and others worked on the cases that led to the 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision.

Williams graduated from Girls’ High School in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. She received her B.A. degree from Bates College in 1966 and her M.A. degree from Tufts University in 1967. In 1973, she received her J.D. degree from Catholic University of America. She was then hired as a law clerk for Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall and Judge Spottswood W. Robinson, III of the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit.

Williams served as Chief Counsel of the Senate Committee on the Budget from 1977 until 1980. She also served as Administrator of the Office of Federal Procurement Policy. In 1982, she was the first African American to joined Crowell & Moring LLP, where she made partner in two years. As a retired partner, she has taken on a new area of expertise, seeking compensation for victims of terrorism.

From 1992 to 1993, Williams served as Chair of the ABA Section of Public Contract Law and became Director of Washington Gas & Light. Williams was appointed by President George W. Bush and served with distinction as a Public Life Member of the Internal Revenue Oversight Board from 2000 to 2003 and was Chair of the Red Cross Governance Advisory Committee.

Williams is a member of the National Contract Management Association, the Black Women Lawyers Association, the National Bar Association and the Women’s Forum of Washington, D.C. Her community activities include service on the Board of Directors of the Lawyer’s Committee for Civil Rights under the Law. She is a member of the Board of Trustees for the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund at Amherst College and formerly of the National Cathedral School.

Williams was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on April 27, 2007.

Accession Number

A2007.167

Sex

Female

Interview Date

4/27/2007

Last Name

Williams

Maker Category
Middle Name

Hastie

Occupation
Schools

Philadelphia High School for Girls

Ellwood Sch

Saints Peter and Paul School

Columbus Law School

Wagner Gen Louis Ms

Bates College

The Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy

First Name

Karen

Birth City, State, Country

Washington

HM ID

WIL39

Favorite Season

Summer

State

District of Columbia

Favorite Vacation Destination

Anywhere Warm

Favorite Quote

It Is Not Important To Be The First If You Can't Open The Door For A Second Or Third In Whatever You Do.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

District of Columbia

Birth Date

9/30/1944

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Washington

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Mangoes

Short Description

Corporate lawyer Karen Hastie Williams (1944 - ) was the former director of Washington Gas, and was the first African American to join the law firm Crowell & Moring, LLP, and be made partner.

Employment

Crowell and Moring LLP

Mobil Oil Company

Thurgood Marshall

Spottswood W. Robinson III

Fried, Frank, Harris, Shriver and Jacobson LLP

U.S. Senate Committee on the Budget

Office of Management and Budget

Favorite Color

Black

Timing Pairs
0,0:1067,18:7663,110:8148,116:8827,124:14356,185:20060,222:20392,227:21803,277:24044,353:24874,364:25953,378:26368,384:27032,393:30280,422:32980,546:33700,555:34600,566:35140,573:36580,591:43330,687:44050,698:44500,704:45220,714:45760,722:46570,731:53604,802:54192,809:61346,877:66050,948:66834,962:67324,968:69382,989:70460,1001:70852,1006:78141,1040:82324,1079:87931,1172:88554,1180:92503,1194:92827,1199:93232,1205:93718,1211:98659,1268:100117,1315:100765,1325:109448,1395:110540,1410:112087,1438:112997,1450:113998,1464:114635,1473:115090,1480:115454,1485:115818,1490:116273,1496:117456,1511:117911,1517:119094,1531:121733,1562:122461,1571:129904,1615:131044,1630:131804,1641:134160,1666:134616,1674:134920,1679:135452,1688:135832,1694:137884,1729:138264,1735:139404,1751:143340,1768:144100,1777:145050,1787:147900,1828:149705,1849:150465,1857:151700,1878:152270,1885:160449,1907:161321,1917:164591,1941:166008,1966:169060,1995:171349,2017:172548,2032:172984,2037:177120,2042:178344,2055:179364,2066:179976,2074:180384,2084:180894,2090:181404,2096:185600,2120:186008,2125:187028,2136:189170,2182:190802,2201:192536,2224:193148,2230:209370,2334:211444,2350:212614,2362:213901,2381:215188,2394:218504,2442:219314,2448:220286,2456:223180,2467:224572,2489:224920,2494:225529,2503:226225,2513:227182,2526:228052,2539:229810,2547$0,0:4565,103:4897,108:5312,114:9213,175:9794,222:10541,234:19235,294:21953,327:22325,332:23813,355:25580,378:26603,392:29021,421:29486,427:34322,486:34973,496:35717,506:37112,524:37484,529:39065,559:39623,609:46940,638:47465,649:48305,658:56360,785:56990,793:57980,810:58970,823:61490,864:63650,906:66710,953:67880,967:68240,972:68780,999:69590,1010:74450,1097:75530,1111:75980,1117:76430,1123:84400,1218:84826,1225:86459,1253:87382,1270:87808,1276:90009,1306:90293,1311:90577,1320:90861,1325:91358,1334:92139,1347:94482,1390:96612,1420:97038,1427:97322,1435:98316,1452:98813,1468:99381,1477:99949,1487:100304,1493:101227,1517:101724,1526:103286,1554:103641,1560:104209,1570:104493,1575:110130,1637:111170,1650:112370,1669:113250,1685:113570,1690:117810,1773:118130,1778:119410,1799:119890,1806:120290,1812:121090,1823:121570,1831:123330,1879:124130,1890:129210,1917:131160,1948:132564,1972:133422,1984:133734,1989:135606,2008:136464,2022:137322,2034:138336,2048:138804,2055:139428,2065:140832,2081:141378,2089:141690,2094:142002,2099:142626,2112:143250,2120:143874,2150:146526,2206:146994,2213:149178,2277:149490,2282:150504,2298:151050,2307:151830,2319:152610,2330:158958,2342:159286,2347:161090,2377:162074,2393:162566,2401:174500,2491
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Karen Hastie Williams' interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Karen Hastie Williams lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Karen Hastie Williams describes her mother's family background, pt. 1

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Karen Hastie Williams describes her maternal grandfather's career

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Karen Hastie Williams describes her mother's family background, pt. 2

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Karen Hastie Williams describes her father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Karen Hastie Williams describes her father's education

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Karen Hastie Williams describes her father's education and career

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Karen Hastie Williams describes her father's work under President Franklin Delano Roosevelt

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Karen Hastie Williams describes her father's roles in the U.S. Virgin Islands

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Karen Hastie Williams describes how her parents met

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Karen Hastie Williams talks about her father's civil rights activities

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Karen Hastie Williams remembers Thurgood Marshall

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Karen Hastie Williams recalls her father's civil rights casework

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Karen Hastie Williams describes her early aspirations

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Karen Hastie Williams describes the sights, sounds and smells of her childhood

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Karen Hastie Williams describes her elementary school experiences

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Karen Hastie Williams describes her transition to public schooling

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Karen Hastie Williams describes General Louis Wagner Junior High School in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Tape: 2 Story: 11 - Karen Hastie Williams remembers the Philadelphia High School for Girls in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Karen Hastie Williams describes the East Oak Lane neighborhood of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Karen Hastie Williams describes her experiences at the Philadelphia High School for Girls

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Karen Hastie Williams recalls her decision to attend Bates College in Lewiston, Maine

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Karen Hastie Williams describes her experiences at Bates College in Lewiston, Maine

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Karen Hastie Williams describes her undergraduate thesis and graduate studies

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Karen Hastie Williams remembers meeting her husband

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Karen Hastie Williams describes her position at the Mobil Oil Corporation

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Karen Hastie Williams talks about her husband and children

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Karen Hastie Williams recalls her decision to attend the Columbus School of Law in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Karen Hastie Williams remembers the Columbus School of Law in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Karen Hastie Williams recalls her judicial clerkships

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Karen Hastie Williams talks about her father and Thurgood Marshall

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Karen Hastie Williams describes her career in government

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Karen Hastie Williams recalls her role at the Office of Management and Budget

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Karen Hastie Williams describes the law firm of Crowell and Moring LLP

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Karen Hastie Williams talks about her organizational involvement

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Karen Hastie Williams describes her work with the American Red Cross

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Karen Hastie Williams talks about the leadership of the American Red Cross

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Karen Hastie Williams describes her terrorism casework at Crowell and Moring LLP

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Karen Hastie Williams reflects upon her life

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Karen Hastie Williams shares a message to future generations

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$4

DAStory

1$5

DATitle
Karen Hastie Williams describes her father's roles in the U.S. Virgin Islands
Karen Hastie Williams recalls her role at the Office of Management and Budget
Transcript
Let's step back a little bit and talk more about your father as governor of the [U.S.] Virgin Islands. Did he share stories about his work there at that time?$$Yes, he was, when he was governor of the Virgin Islands I was five years old, my brother [William H. Hastie III] was born in Government House [Charlotte Amalie, U.S. Virgin Islands]. I went to elementary school at the local Catholic school.$$Do you remember the name of it?$$Saint Peter's and Paul [Saints Peter and Paul Catholic School, Charlotte Amalie, U.S. Virgin Islands].$$Okay.$$Catholic school and stayed there through the fifth grade. When Dad came, this would be back to the islands because as you recall he had been there as a judge before he went to teach at Howard [Howard University School of Law, Washington, D.C.]. And he was fairly controversial in the sense that he established the terms or had the legislature approve the terms of the Organic Act [Organic Act of 1936] which was the first major overall of the legislation that really guided the way things were going to be done within the government structure within the tax structure. And there were those particularly the editor then of the largest newspaper who many years later became his brother-in-law, were attacking him in stories saying you know, "Hastie's [William H. Hastie] trying to bring his stateside ideas to our little island. And you know wants to change the way things were done." Well his concern was that the laws were not clear, they were being interpreted by local judges giving favoritism to a lot of the big property owners. And the work force the, the men and women who were conducting their lives responsibly, were in many ways not being supported by the way the laws were being interpreted. So this went on for probably close two years, legislature ultimately passed his recommendations. And that is still the law in the Virgin Islands now. He was I think the first civilian governor after a string of [U.S.] Navy governors were the, the leader of the, of the islands. They, they were presidential appointees most of them were white naval officers. But, he had a very successful term, Truman [President Harry S. Truman] came down to the Virgin Islands and it was the first time that a president had visited the islands and this would have been probably in 1947 or '48 [1948] I believe. And my brother was born in Government House on St. Thomas [U.S. Virgin Islands] in 1947.$$Okay.$$I think that in retrospect most Virgin Islanders feel that his tenure as governor was good for the islands.$So I went down to the White House to OMB [Office of Management and Budget] and spent a year and a half down there working as the head of the Office of Federal Procurement and Policy [Office of Federal Procurement Policy], which is an executive office located within OMB.$$And tell me what that experience was like?$$That was a very interesting experience because my, my job was really to put pressure on the federal--the major federal cabinet offices to do more with contracting out to women, to people of color. That was a real agenda item. And this was the Carter [President James Earl "Jimmy" Carter, Jr.] administration. And so I did that and I remember having a conver- a meeting with Colin Powell [HistoryMaker General Colin L. Powell], who was then the, I guess it's called the special assistant to the secretary of defense. And he said to me and I had not known him before, but I walked in, and he said, "Before we have a conversation I have to tell you that your father [William H. Hastie] changed my life." I said, "Oh my, how did he do that?" He said, "Well, he was the chairman of the Commission on White House Fellows [President's Commission on White House Fellowships] and he picked me out of a group of thirty candidates to be one of the people who was a White House Fellow. And I choose to come over and work with the secretary of defense," and here he is now back again on another tour. And he said, "I really want to help you, I know that the [U.S.] military should be doing better. But, I've gotta tell you when I run up against these three stars and four stars [four star general]," this was before he had all of his stars, "it's very difficult." I said, "Well I'm just looking for--I realize you can't change everything overnight, I'd like to just see some progress." And I, we talked about strategies that he might use. And I told him, I'd provide him some additional information as to what was going on in other agencies. So that was a particularly interesting time when I was in OMB, because I was interacting with a lot of senior people in government. And working also with people up on Capitol Hill [Washington, D.C.]. So I think that the two governmental experiences both at the budget committee [U.S. Senate Committee on the Budget] and at OMB were very instructive. In terms of building my experience level to be able when I went back into private practice, to be able to help clients negotiate within the federal structures.$$So you leave there in 1981?$$Right.

Maxie L. Patterson

Maxie (Max) L. Patterson was born on June 12, 1944 in Detroit, Michigan to Myra and Harry Patterson. He was active in the science club, the marching band and achieved the rank of Master Sergeant in the ROTC. He graduated from Munford High School in 1962 and enrolled in Ferris State College, which he attended for two years. After leaving college, Patterson worked for the Ford Motor Company.

Patterson enlisted in the United States Army in 1967 and was assigned to counterintelligence. He is a decorated Vietnam War veteran and is retired from the United States Army Reserve with the rank of Chief Warrant Officer.

Patterson returned to college after the military. He received his B.A. and M.A. degrees in public administration in 1973 and 1977 from Michigan State University in East Lansing, Michigan. While attending Michigan State University, Patterson worked for the police department. In 1976, he was offered a job as the Police Chief of Albion, Michigan. Three years later, in 1979, he became the Police Chief of Windsor, Connecticut. After seven years, Patterson was persuaded to accept a position as Assistant City Manager of Beaumont, Texas, where he also served as the city’s Coordinator of the Minority Business Enterprise Program until 1989.

Patterson moved to Houston, Texas in 1989 to become Deputy Chief Administrative Officer. In 1991, he was appointed as interim Director of Housing and Community Development. From July 1992 to 1995, Patterson served as the Deputy Director and City Treasurer and ultimately was appointed City Treasurer. He worked as the fiduciary of the city’s three pension systems. In 1997, Patterson was hired as Executive Director of Houston’s Firefighter’s Retirement Fund until 2005 when he became the Executive Director of Texas Association of Public Employee Retirement Systems.

Patterson lives in Houston, Texas with his wife Deborah. They have four children.

Patterson was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on February 9, 2007.

Accession Number

A2007.060

Sex

Male

Interview Date

2/9/2007

Last Name

Patterson

Maker Category
Middle Name

L.

Schools

Sampson Elementary School

Samuel C. Mumford High School

Hally Magnet Middle School

Michigan State University

First Name

Maxie

Birth City, State, Country

Detroit

HM ID

PAT06

Favorite Season

Fall, Spring

State

Michigan

Favorite Vacation Destination

Caribbean

Favorite Quote

None

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Texas

Birth Date

6/12/1944

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Houston

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Ribs

Short Description

Police officer and city government administrator Maxie L. Patterson (1944 - ) served as police chief of Albion, Michigan and Windsor, Connecticut. Patterson was later appointed as the Deputy Director and City Treasurer of Houston, and was ultimately appointed as the Executive Director of Texas Association of Public Employee Retirement Systems.

Employment

Police Department

Houston Firefighters' Relief and Retirement Fund

Texas Association of Public Employee Retirement Systems

Southwest Athletic Conference

Conference USA

Favorite Color

None

Timing Pairs
0,0:1771,62:12243,333:13860,366:14553,374:15015,379:15400,385:20713,491:35440,615:49044,780:53368,935:81220,1283:81580,1288:82840,1304:85350,1321:87605,1330:94405,1516:94745,1521:96190,1544:99130,1557:99538,1562:99946,1567:106952,1680:107372,1686:107876,1693:109220,1712:109892,1721:110396,1728:111488,1743:112748,1771:114260,1794:115856,1828:122492,1949:146609,2132:163562,2349:166544,2358:167168,2367:171020,2453$0,0:255,7:850,15:4675,77:8925,209:29290,465:32472,545:32990,553:35210,605:35506,610:37652,735:38096,742:45052,836:46458,862:46976,868:48456,897:50158,933:58790,981:59090,986:61565,1044:62015,1051:62690,1081:86925,1467:87447,1474:97452,1665:110300,1797:111660,1824:112220,1832:112780,1840:115260,1892:115980,1902:117900,1943:128400,2131:134435,2258:144550,2349:144918,2354:145286,2359:145838,2367:152254,2445:154792,2472:155566,2485:156340,2505:160124,2574:161586,2603:162188,2612:162618,2618:163134,2630:177873,2830:185968,2933:188698,2983:193876,3046:194767,3077:196792,3100:200648,3153:206456,3266:207512,3285:207776,3290:213208,3342:221510,3492:226517,3544:232876,3671:234436,3703:234826,3708:237244,3750:240792,3768:241147,3773:246472,3923:249454,3985:265090,4246:265756,4257:266644,4277:267162,4289:269308,4344:270418,4356:270936,4364:271528,4374:275440,4394:275760,4399:283680,4522:284000,4527:288000,4606:288720,4618:298076,4690:298732,4700:305128,4794:306030,4803:306604,4811:318939,4974:320802,5013:325578,5061:325983,5067:326955,5089:327522,5097:327846,5102:330490,5163
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Maxie L. Patterson's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Maxie L. Patterson lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Maxie L. Patterson describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Maxie L. Patterson describes his father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Maxie L. Patterson describes how his parents met

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Maxie L. Patterson lists his siblings

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Maxie L. Patterson remembers shopping with his mother

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Maxie L. Patterson describes his mother's career

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Maxie L. Patterson describes his relationship with his father

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Maxie L. Patterson remembers the apartment building his father owned

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Maxie L. Patterson describes his schooling in Detroit, Michigan

Tape: 1 Story: 12 - Maxie L. Patterson describes his neighborhood in Detroit, Michigan

Tape: 1 Story: 13 - Maxie L. Patterson recalls P.J.M. Halley Elementary School in Detroit, Michigan

Tape: 1 Story: 14 - Maxie L. Patterson describes his early pastimes

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Maxie L. Patterson recalls his elementary schools

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Maxie L. Patterson recalls the Trinity Youth Center band

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Maxie L. Patterson describes his early education

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Maxie L. Patterson remembers Samuel C. Mumford High School in Detroit, Michigan

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Maxie L. Patterson recalls his college aspirations

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Maxie L. Patterson remembers Ferris State College in Big Rapids, Michigan

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Maxie L. Patterson recalls working at the Ford Motor Company

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Maxie L. Patterson remembers the Civil Rights Movement

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - Maxie L. Patterson remembers leaving Ferris State College

Tape: 2 Story: 10 - Maxie L. Patterson recalls his enlistment in the U.S. Army

Tape: 2 Story: 11 - Maxie L. Patterson talks about his leadership positions

Tape: 2 Story: 12 - Maxie L. Patterson describes his role as a counterintelligence agent in the U.S. Army

Tape: 2 Story: 13 - Maxie L. Patterson recalls his basic training at Fort Knox in Kentucky

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Maxie L. Patterson remembers his father's death

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Maxie L. Patterson remembers leaving the Ford Motor Company

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Maxie L. Patterson recalls his decision not to become a helicopter pilot

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Maxie L. Patterson remembers his counterintelligence training

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Maxie L. Patterson recalls his admission to Michigan State University in East Lansing, Michigan

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Maxie L. Patterson describes his counterintelligence duties in Vietnam

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Maxie L. Patterson describes the U.S. military's Phoenix Program

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Maxie L. Patterson remembers his U.S. military promotion

Tape: 3 Story: 9 - Maxie L. Patterson talks about the U.S. Army's domestic intelligence programs

Tape: 3 Story: 10 - Maxie L. Patterson remembers Michigan State University in East Lansing, Michigan

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Maxie L. Patterson recalls becoming the police chief of Albion, Michigan

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Maxie L. Patterson remembers serving as the police chief of Windsor, Connecticut

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Maxie L. Patterson describes his community involvement in Albion, Michigan

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Maxie L. Patterson remembers meeting his wife

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Maxie L. Patterson describes his religious activities

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Maxie L. Patterson talks about his membership in professional organizations

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Maxie L. Patterson recalls working in the City of Beaumont, Texas

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Maxie L. Patterson describes his affirmative action work in the City of Beaumont

Tape: 4 Story: 9 - Maxie L. Patterson recalls working in the finance department of the City of Houston, Texas

Tape: 4 Story: 10 - Maxie L. Patterson recalls managing pension plans for the City of Houston

Tape: 4 Story: 11 - Maxie L. Patterson talks about the Enron Corporation

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Maxie L. Patterson remembers the Enron Corporation's bankruptcy

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Maxie L. Patterson describes the Texas Association of Public Employee Retirement Systems

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Maxie L. Patterson talks about his interest in singing

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Maxie L. Patterson describes his volunteer activities

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Maxie L. Patterson talks about the American Red Cross

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Maxie L. Patterson talks about officiating football games

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - Maxie L. Patterson describes his children

Tape: 5 Story: 8 - Maxie L. Patterson talks about his awards and honors

Tape: 5 Story: 9 - Maxie L. Patterson shares a message to future generations

Tape: 5 Story: 10 - Maxie L. Patterson describes how he would like to be remembered

Tape: 5 Story: 11 - Maxie L. Patterson narrates his photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$4

DAStory

8$1

DATitle
Maxie L. Patterson remembers his U.S. military promotion
Maxie L. Patterson recalls becoming the police chief of Albion, Michigan
Transcript
(Simultaneous) So you learned to speak Vietnamese very well.$$Well, the, the way the [U.S.] military operates they, they, they lessened it because when I got over there, they gave me an interpreter, and my interpreter was Vietnamese, and he didn't wanna speak Vietnamese, he wanted to learn English, and so I didn't get to use it as much as I really wanted to. And then my last three months, my boss, who was up at division headquarters, called me up and says, he says, "I'm really--." He says, "I hate to do this to you," and he says, "I won't do it if you tell me you don't wanna do it, but--," he says--he was located at the--what they call the division tactical operation center where you're working with--there's a two star generals there and, and, and in the intelligence section, there is usually him and he has a, a junior captain working underneath him, and a couple other people, and he says, "We're outta people. I don't have any more officers up here," and he says, "I need you to help me; come back up and help me." And he says, "I know you got a good deal down there" (laughter), "and I hate to pull you back," he says, "but I won't do it if you don't wanna come." And I says, "Captain, I'll come, no problem." And the guy's name was Captain Miles Cortez, and we have communicated to this day, and he actually took my daughter [Laurel Patterson] in for the summer while she was a student at Colorado State University [Fort Collins, Colorado], 'cause he's an attorney in Denver [Colorado], and we have maintained the kind of relationship from that time way back in '69 [1969] to today. And I came back up, went up to division headquarters, and we finished out three months there and--dodging incoming rounds underneath the table. They had those old, metal, gray government tables, and when the rounds start coming in, you dive underneath the table until there was a break, and then you make a mad dash for the bunker until--and that was a, a daily routine you go through. And so I managed to go through twelve months of Vietnam, stayed intact, never get shot at, and did some crazy, stupid things, and went on operations I didn't have to go on, and went up and down roads I didn't have to go on, and saw how the state department [U.S. Department of State] operates and how (unclear) operates and, and saw how political and how much the civilian side state department influenced the war [Vietnam War], compared to the military side.$You're getting ready to--I think we were at the point where you were getting your master's [degree] from Michigan State [Michigan State University, East Lansing, Michigan].$$Okay. I was almost ready, getting close to graduation--$$Um-hm.$$--and I had planned on career wise, going into higher education; that's what I wanted to do was work in higher education, and a friend of mine--I was also in a, in a [U.S.] military reserve unit; at the time I came back from Vietnam, I went in the [U.S.] Army Reserve, and it was a criminal investigation unit in Jackson, Michigan and a, and a friend of mine there said that there was an opening as a police chief in Albion, Michigan and I ought to apply for it, and I says, "I don't wanna be a police chief." He said, "You should apply for it," and so, to make a long story short, he talked me into it. And Albion is a small community, about four square miles, population twelve thousand.$$Spell the name of it.$$A-L-B-I-O-N.$$Okay.$$And most notably, if anybody knows about it, it's probably because Albion College [Albion, Michigan] is located there. And so I applied for the job and--thinking that there's no way I--patrolman for six years, I'm not a sergeant, not a lieutenant, and I'm a, you know--but I went on ahead--they talked me into it and they said--the other element he had was they were looking for a, a, a, a minority as police chief. And so as the process went along, I got a call from a friend of mine in Battle Creek [Michigan] who I had gotten to know while I was at Michigan State. When I was at Michigan State, I used to work on what they call police community relation teams, and did a lot in the community, both on campus and in Lansing [Michigan], working on police community relations. And the Battle Creek Police Department hired a civilian who was a retired colonel from the [U.S.] Army who was their police community relations person. Back in those days, there was a need for police community relations because of all the issues going on between community and police. And so he called me up and told me, he said, "I understand you're a candidate for the chief job," and I said, "Yeah, how do you know?" And he says, "That's all right, don't worry about it." He says, "I'm on the selection team." And so, as we continued through the process, to make a long story short, what came down to three finalists, and I found this out after, after I was selected, he told me what had happened and, and basically he says, "When you got down to the three of you--." He said, "The way you made it into the three is," he said, "we were making a short list of the finalists, and" he says, "I confronted the other members of the selection committee," he said, "because (unclear) it was all rigged." He said, "There was a captain, and his lieutenant was one of the candidates," and he says, "that wasn't right." And he says--so he confronted the guy and he said, "If your guy stays in then my guy stays in," so I was left in the pool. And he said this whole thing about hiring a minority was just a ruse; they just wanted to make it look good. He said, "That's why they left you in the first place, 'cause they knew you wouldn't be selected 'cause you didn't have the supervisory." He says, "But I highlighted all of your military training and," and he said, "that made you equally or more qualified than the other ones they were looking at." And so we went in--the three of us went in; the third one was somebody from New York, and he dropped out after they shortlisted the three, and then the city manager picked the other lieutenant from the other department, and they gave him everything he wanted except when they went up to the city council to approve it, he had asked for a contract, and the city council said, "We'll give you everything but we're not giving you a contract." And so he said, "Forget it, I don't want it," and so I got the job by default (laughter). And so I went from patrolman at Michigan State University overnight, to a police chief in Albion, Michigan. And I started out there, and that's about twelve thousand--population is twelve thousand, and they had a host of issues; they had a railroad track that went down the middle of town, they had a history of blacks being on one side of the tracks and whites on the other side of the tracks, the state had a welfare office in town, there was one high school; it had all of the demographics you would want--it had a sizeable Hispanic population, black populations, white; it went from very poor--as poor as you can get, to as rich as you can get with private street, big houses, and the police department, the previous chief had been fired--a number of incidents. The--there was a state civil rights investigation going on, there was a couple of lawsuits against officer abuse that was underway, and it was an old community that went all the way back to the Roaring '20s [1920s] and still had red bricks in the middle of main street, so that's how I started out my career in--as a police chief, and was there for three years. And it'd make another four hours just talking about what had went on there.$$(Laughter).

John B. Clemmons, Sr.

College professor and scholar J.B. Clemmons was born John Benjamin Clemmons on April 11, 1912 to Lewis and Bessie Clemmons in Rome, Georgia. Clemmons graduated from high school in 1927 after completing only the tenth grade; African Americans were not allowed to go to eleventh or twelfth grade in Rome. In 1930, he entered Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia.

Clemmons then enrolled in graduate studies at Atlanta University, obtaining his M.A. degree in 1937. He then moved to Harlan, Kentucky, where he began teaching for $100 a week and met and married Mozelle Daily. By 1942, Clemmons was the principal of the school in Harlan. In 1947, Clemmons and his wife moved to Savannah, Georgia. While his wife began her lifelong involvement in the NAACP, Clemmons taught at Savannah State College (now Savannah State University) alongside his colleague, Dr. Henry M. Collier, Jr. Together, they formed the Delta ETA Chapter of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc. In the summer of 1949, he worked as a visiting professor at the University of Pittsburgh.

Clemmons then decided to continue his education by attending the University of Southern California to earn his Ph.D. He received Ford Foundation and National Science Foundation grants in 1951 and 1952, respectively. After working towards earning his Ph.D. at UCLA, Clemmons decided to return to Georgia, continued his teaching career and became involved in banking. He went on to charter the Alpha Lambda Boulé of the Sigma Pi Phi in Savannah in 1963.

Clemmons served as the Chairman of the Department of Mathematics and Physics at Savannah State University for thirty-seven years. He received many honors over the years for his outstanding work and philanthropic efforts in the community. Clemmons served as Chairman of the Board for Carver State Bank in Savannah.

Clemmons passed away on June 13, 2012 at the age of 100.

Accession Number

A2007.025

Sex

Male

Interview Date

1/22/2007

Last Name

Clemmons

Maker Category
Middle Name

B.

Schools

Morehouse College

Main Elementary School

Clark Atlanta University

University of Southern California

University of Pittsburgh

First Name

John

Birth City, State, Country

Rome

HM ID

CLE04

Favorite Season

Summer

State

Georgia

Favorite Vacation Destination

Las Vegas, Nevada

Favorite Quote

Ask The Man That Won't Own One.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

Georgia

Birth Date

4/11/1912

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Savannah

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Lobster

Death Date

6/13/2012

Short Description

Math professor and physics professor John B. Clemmons, Sr. (1912 - 2012 ) served as acting chair Department of Mathematics and Physics at Georgia State College, and chartered the Alpha Lambda Boule’ of Sigma Pi Phi fraternity. He also served as Chairman of the Board for Carver State Bank in Savannah, Georgia, and received many honors over the years for his outstanding work and philanthropic efforts in the community.

Employment

Fairbanks Company

Tobacco Farm

Duffy's Tavern

Rosenwald High School

Savannah State University

Favorite Color

Blue

Timing Pairs
0,0:582,9:7275,134:22029,263:34220,378:63210,704:124748,1423:126790,1428:142950,1624:149995,1720:173820,2031:196572,2227:257950,2766$0,0:584,21:1430,35:12522,272:26572,553:47980,740:54535,835:57290,1021:60045,1046:119384,1530:126248,1591:126664,1596:138470,1665:157702,1825:165954,1899:166731,1908:213330,2417
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of John B. Clemmons, Sr.'s interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. lists his favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. describes his mother's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. describes how his parents met

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. describes his father's family background

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. describes his family's land in Rome, Georgia

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. talks about his brothers

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. describes his parents' professions

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. remembers working at the Fairbanks Company in Rome, Georgia

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. describes his grade school education

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. remembers his elementary school experiences

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. describes his experiences as a Boy Scout

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. recalls the entrance examination at Morehouse College

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. remembers working on a tobacco farm in Hartford, Connecticut

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. describes his summer work experiences during college

Tape: 2 Story: 9 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. describes his college education in Atlanta, Georgia

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. describes his thesis at Atlanta University in Atlanta, Georgia

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. describes his position at Rosenwald High School in Harlan, Kentucky

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. describes his move to Cumberland, Maryland

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. recalls being excused from U.S. military service

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. describes his Ph.D. program at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles, California

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. recalls joining the faculty off Savannah State College in Savannah, Georgia

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. remembers his academic grants

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. remembers Louis B. Toomer

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. describes his real estate investments

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. remembers the first computers at Georgia State College in Savannah, Georgia

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. describes his position on the board of Carver State Bank

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. recalls the Civil Rights Movement in Savannah, Georgia

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. remembers founding the Alpha Lambda Boule

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. describes the Alpha Lambda Boule's scholarship program

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. describes his loan program at Savannah State College in Savannah, Georgia

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. talks about his organizational involvement

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. remembers his induction to the Savannah Business Hall of Fame

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. remembers teaching drama at Savannah State College

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. talks about his wife and children

Tape: 5 Story: 7 - John B. Clemmons, Sr. narrates his photographs

DASession

1$1

DATape

2$4

DAStory

2$3

DATitle
John B. Clemmons, Sr. remembers working at the Fairbanks Company in Rome, Georgia
John B. Clemmons, Sr. remembers the first computers at Georgia State College in Savannah, Georgia
Transcript
How much education did your father [Lewis Clemmons] have?$$He went to the third grade, he said. I don't know, but I know he could, he kept a, on his job, he kept a ruled notebook where he--real neat--where he would say, oh, you know, I, bill fifteen, uh, meaning assemble, fifteen 5213 trucks. That's the number of it. And those were cotton trucks, 5213. I will always remember that 'cause I remember most of them. And at the assembly, the price might have been--let us say, twelve cents. And then, if he built ten of them, then he put a dollar and twenty cents out there, and then on down the line, whatever trucks he was assembling. And then, one time, they were--the bosses sent three white boys down there one summer to work with him. And, and daddy said, "No, I'm not going to teach these boys how to take my job" (laughter). So, so he told his boss no. Well, one of the boys that came down there was one of the bosses' son. One--another one of the officials of the company [Fairbanks Company, Rome, Georgia]--son. And, and it was three boys. And, and the, and the, I don't know whether if that's what they planned to do or not. But daddy said, he wasn't going to teach them how to take his job--not him.$$So, did you and your brothers [Eddie Clemmons and Willie Clemmons] have--I'm sure you had chores, but did you work?$$Yeah, we would work sometimes after school. We, when we got a certain age, we'd go down to the same company. See, my daddy's work was piecework. And, and then, we had tapped, we knew the numbers of different things and, and, that were in certain bins. And it was a big factory too, covered about three or four blocks. And what we would do is, if he had to build fifty 230s--2- 2- trucks that were called 230s--then, we knew what brackets to get, what axels to get, all of the parts. And we'd bring it out of the bins, out to a desk. And my daddy and another man, Mr. Williams [ph.], for part of the time, and then, finally, there was just, there's a lot of different folks with him. But we'd pile those other, stack them up neatly by the desk, where the bench, where the, where each man was working. And then, and as the truck is assembled--first, you, you put the two hands down, then you do what, what they call nose guards and things, put them down. And then, finally, you end up, you putting the wheels on the axel. And then, you push it off. And every day about four o'clock, some man comes through, and see how many of them you assembled.$$Okay.$$And then, our job was to roll them to the warehouse. And in the warehouse, well, they shipped everything from the warehouse. That was what daddy did.$$Okay. Now (simultaneous)--$$(Simultaneous) He was doing that when he died--up to, and lived to that point, he got--up 'til he retired.$At this time, you're still, you're teaching at Savannah State [Georgia State College; Savannah State University, Savannah, Georgia]. How long--$$I'm not teaching. I didn't--$$Not--no, at this time, this is in 1947, 1948.$$Oh, yeah, I was teaching.$$Yeah. How long did you teach at Savannah State?$$I, I taught, let me see, I taught thirty-five years there.$$What did you teach? Was it mathematics and physics (simultaneous)?$$(Simultaneous) Mathematics, physics, and computer science.$$Okay. And you were the chairman of the department of mathematics?$$Chairman, chairman of the department. One of the things, special things I did, I wrote IBM [International Business Machines Corporation] at Poughkeepsie, New York. They gave me a trip up there, and tell--I went to a meeting in University of Georgia [Athens, Georgia] for all of the units in Georgia. And they took us out to Georgia Tech in, in Georgia [Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta, Georgia]. And, and those places, they had rooms where each student would have a computer way back then, and I didn't know that. I didn't know that was happening. And so, I wrote IBM. They gave me a trip up there. And I took one of the leader, leader students with me up there, and see, he's, he's deceased now. But (unclear), I was able to talk to the vice president of IBM. And I told them, that's--you all should--we trying to get the computers. And when--you all should give, give us some, a resource person. Said, "Well, we'll let you know." And I stayed two days up there. But when I got back, I got a letter saying they had decided that they would give us a resource person at their expense for one year. Well, that person came, and we were living at The Landings [Savannah, Georgia]. That's where rich people--they paid for all of that. And, and we had, and he taught a class in it. And I, I and they didn't--lady named Ms. Wilson [ph.] knew a good bit about programming and stuff. But that, that fellow kind of directed us and taught us more. And we got what you call the 1620 computer [IBM 1620]. And, and they put that in, in here at the college. And then, later, we got a, one called a 360 [IBM System/360], but the college bought it. And then, but you see, but that's something, a lot of the kids didn't know how the computer got here. But, and a lot of teachers probably didn't know, but that's how we got it, see (simultaneous).$$(Simultaneous) All right.

Thelma Groomes

Thelma Lucille Jarmon Vass Groomes was born January 3, 1911, in Kinston, North Carolina. An only child, her father worked as a truck driver and a preacher while her mother was a seamstress and beautician. Groomes grew up in Washington, D.C., graduating from high school in 1928 and going on to attend Howard University, where she earned a B.A. in education in 1932. She would later return to school at the University of the District of Columbia to further her education in the 1960s.

After graduating from Howard, Groomes took a job with the U.S. Department of Commerce, tabulating figures for the next three years. In 1935, she left for the U.S. Department of Labor to work as a statistical clerk, and she would remain there until 1959. That year, she went to work at Hine Junior High School teaching English, reading and social studies. She also taught government and sociology at Roosevelt High School as part of its adult education program. While at Hine, Groomes was an outgoing teacher engaged in her students' progress. She was the sponsor of the United Nations Contest and trip to the United Nations in New York, the sponsor of the Junior Red Cross Society and sponsor of the Charm and Culture Club. She also served as a representative of the school to the city of Washington, D.C., and the National Education Association. Groomes retired in 1972, but spent the next year working as a consultant to Alton Elementary School in the Parent-Partnership Traineeship Program.

Over the years, Groomes has been involved in a wide number of organizations. She has served as the vice president of the Association for the Study of African American Life and History in the Capital chapter, served on the Women's Committee of the Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts and is a charter member and vice president of the D.C. Friends of Liberia. She also currently serves as the president of the Howard University Women's Club, a role that she also filled from 1954 to 1956. She is also a lifelong member of the National Education Association and the NAACP. Groomes has been named the Woman of the Year by Afro-American, has been inducted into the Washington Urban League Hall of Fame, and was named One of Washington's Best Dressed Women by the Omega Wives. Groomes has traveled the world and sponsored three overseas orphans. She has two children, two grandchildren and three great-grandchildren.

Groomes passed away on August 8, 2011 at the age of 100.

Accession Number

A2003.159

Sex

Female

Interview Date

7/17/2003

Last Name

Groomes

Maker Category
Marital Status

Widowed

Schools

University of the District of Columbia

Paul Laurence Dunbar High School

Wilson J.o. Es

Howard University

First Name

Thelma

Birth City, State, Country

Kinston

HM ID

GRO02

Favorite Season

Spring

State

North Carolina

Favorite Vacation Destination

Canada

Favorite Quote

Give To The World The Best That You Have And The Best Will Come Back To You.

Bio Photo
Speakers Bureau Region State

District of Columbia

Birth Date

1/3/1911

Birth Place Term
Speakers Bureau Region City

Washington

Country

United States

Favorite Food

Chicken, Spinach

Death Date

8/30/2011

Short Description

Middle school teacher Thelma Groomes (1911 - 2011 ) served as the president of the Howard University Women's Board.

Employment

United States Department of Commerce

United States Department of Labor

Hine Junior High School

Roosevelt High School

Alton Elementary School

Favorite Color

Sky Blue

Timing Pairs
0,0:6868,110:14173,165:16695,188:17180,194:17859,203:25893,265:26663,283:27202,291:34209,422:34594,428:35210,440:35518,445:36211,457:47915,579:48960,603:49435,609:58440,683:59070,691:73086,816:79708,936:80052,941:80912,958:82890,1041:83664,1055:94300,1144:95128,1156:95772,1164:99452,1215:106468,1320:106920,1325:116224,1451:120536,1516:121026,1522:122496,1542:127970,1556:129174,1572:130636,1587:131496,1609:132356,1647:132700,1652:133044,1657:133646,1673:135624,1709:137774,1742:140440,1793:145811,1813:150007,1847:152617,1880:154183,1903:156184,1937:156706,1944:157489,1960:159055,1986:163870,2029:166030,2057:166480,2063:169090,2097:170710,2132:171340,2140:172330,2153:172870,2161:173320,2167:174130,2178:174670,2185:176290,2209:184029,2271:184514,2277:186850,2283$0,0:1001,14:4641,88:5187,95:12194,234:15379,306:15925,313:17199,384:23150,404:25955,459:26380,465:26805,471:27825,489:51540,875:52080,882:52710,890:56310,933:56670,941:59010,965:61980,1007:62790,1023:78100,1148:82525,1184:86605,1245:88050,1267:88560,1275:93150,1350:94170,1362:94595,1369:95020,1375:95785,1386:101763,1424:102047,1429:102757,1441:104745,1482:107159,1524:107585,1532:109786,1574:110212,1581:110709,1590:112058,1610:112697,1620:113336,1634:113620,1639:114259,1649:114827,1665:115537,1680:116318,1766:125284,1827:128564,1875:129958,1896:130696,1907:132172,1928:136220,1933:138290,1957:139190,1969:139550,1974:139910,1979:140810,1992:141170,1997:141530,2002:141980,2007:143600,2031:143960,2036:145220,2063:145580,2068:152129,2102:157176,2160:157897,2169:159236,2186:165390,2217:166655,2247:168150,2265:170105,2278:183789,2447:185351,2478:190200,2502:192480,2531:193715,2548:209922,2791:223998,2927:234330,3078:235572,3103:235986,3111:236331,3117:239505,3169:239781,3183:240057,3188:240885,3201:241161,3206:241644,3218:246465,3255:247970,3268
DAStories

Tape: 1 Story: 1 - Slating of Thelma Groomes's interview

Tape: 1 Story: 2 - Thelma Groomes lists her favorites

Tape: 1 Story: 3 - Thema Groomes describes her maternal family background

Tape: 1 Story: 4 - Thelma groomes describes her mother's personality and occupation

Tape: 1 Story: 5 - Thelma Groomes describes her mother's educational background

Tape: 1 Story: 6 - Thelma Groomes describes her father's personality and family background

Tape: 1 Story: 7 - Thelma Groomes briefly talks about being her parents' marriage and being an only child

Tape: 1 Story: 8 - Thelma Groomes describes the sights, sounds, and smells of her childhood in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 1 Story: 9 - Thelma Groomes describes her childhood neighborhood in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 1 Story: 10 - Thelma Groomes talks about her father's truck driving accident

Tape: 1 Story: 11 - Thelma Groomes describes her childhood personality and activities

Tape: 2 Story: 1 - Thelma Groomes describes her grandfather's encounter with a bear and researching her family history with HistoryMaker Gen. Julius Becton, Jr.

Tape: 2 Story: 2 - Thelma Groomes remembers her uncle, Elias Becton, a U.S. military veteran of World War I

Tape: 2 Story: 3 - Thelma Groomes talks about her various nicknames

Tape: 2 Story: 4 - Thelma Groomes describes her favorite elementary and high school subjects and teachers

Tape: 2 Story: 5 - Thelma Groomes describes her experience at Dunbar High School in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 2 Story: 6 - Thelma Groomes describes her experience as an undergraduate student at Howard University in Washington, D.C.

Tape: 2 Story: 7 - Thelma Groomes remembers Howard University faculty like William Leo Hansberry and E. Franklin Frazier

Tape: 2 Story: 8 - Thelma Groomes talks about her involvement in the Howard University Women's Club

Tape: 3 Story: 1 - Thelma Groomes talks about Mary Church Terrell and Judge Mary Ann Gooden Terrell's non-profit organization for girls, High Tea Society, Inc.

Tape: 3 Story: 2 - Thelma Groomes describes her involvement with Howard University's Friends of the Chapel

Tape: 3 Story: 3 - Thelma Groomes lists notable faculty and alumni of Howard University in Washington D.C.

Tape: 3 Story: 4 - Thelma Groomes describes working in the U.S. government as an undergraduate student and teaching junior high school in 1959

Tape: 3 Story: 5 - Thelma Groomes describes her experience in the U.S. Department of Labor and her husband's work as a union organizer

Tape: 3 Story: 6 - Thelma Groomes describes challenges her husband faced as a union organizer

Tape: 3 Story: 7 - Thelma Groomes describes her experience teaching at Hines Junior High School in Washington D.C.

Tape: 3 Story: 8 - Thelma Groomes describes her tenure as president of the non-profit organization, Friends of Liberia

Tape: 4 Story: 1 - Thelma Groomes talks about Dr. Carter Godwin Woodson's legacy

Tape: 4 Story: 2 - Thelma Groomes talks about her tenure as president of the Association for the Study of African American Life and History (ASALH)

Tape: 4 Story: 3 - Thelma Groomes talks about Paul Laurence Dunbar High School's African American history curriculum

Tape: 4 Story: 4 - Thelma Groomes talks about her affiliation with various civic organizations

Tape: 4 Story: 5 - Thelma Groomes remembers the assassination of the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. in 1968 and the March on Washington in 1963

Tape: 4 Story: 6 - Thelma Groomes remembers meeting Fannie Lou Hamer in 1964

Tape: 4 Story: 7 - Thelma Groomes remembers the Poor People's Campaign in 1968 and being awarded Woman of the Year

Tape: 4 Story: 8 - Thelma Groomes talks about her parents' involvement with the Universal Negro Improvement Association

Tape: 5 Story: 1 - Thelma Groomes talks about her retirement from the District of Columbia public school system in 1972

Tape: 5 Story: 2 - Thelma Groomes describes her hopes and concerns for the African American community

Tape: 5 Story: 3 - Thelma Groomes considers her legacy

Tape: 5 Story: 4 - Thelma Groomes talks about the significance of oral history

Tape: 5 Story: 5 - Thelma Groomes talks about her parent's perception of her work

Tape: 5 Story: 6 - Thelma Groomes narrates her photographs, pt. 1

Tape: 6 Story: 1 - Thelma Groomes narrates her photographs, pt. 2

DASession

1$1

DATape

3$3

DAStory

1$7

DATitle
Thelma Groomes talks about Mary Church Terrell and Judge Mary Ann Gooden Terrell's non-profit organization for girls, High Tea Society, Inc.
Thelma Groomes describes her experience teaching at Hines Junior High School in Washington D.C.
Transcript
Mary Church Terrell, can you--$$Oh, yeah.$$What was she like, what was she like?$$Well, she was a no-nonsense person and very outgoing. And I, I learned a good bit about her when in late years when she started this protesting, you know, the discrimination here in Washington [D.C.] because they would meet every Saturday. My husband, Ogden Groomes, was a union man and, of course, he was at all of these things. He was right there. And they would march from maybe restaurants or wherever, and go in to be served and all that sort of thing. And they would meet at the church down there, I think, at Grant Circle a lot of times. But anyway, she was as, as hearty and as agile as most of them. She was with them. And she was sincere, a very sincere person. And I don't know, at her age, you just couldn't, you couldn't believe this, that she had the energy that she has, oh, yes. She was, she was a marvel. And when we gave her that citation, Howard Women's Club [Howard University Women's Club], and I presented it to her--I have a picture of it that I'm going to give them. And I, I was endeared to her. Mary Terrell, you know, and recently, I haven't asked her, but I've had, had occasion to talk with Judge Mary [Ann Gooden] Terrell. They call her Terrell (pronounced with stress on second syllable), and most people call Mary Church Terrell, Terrell (pronounced with stress on first syllable). And I don't know whether down the line, they are related or not. But she is a judge here at the, in the court system, and she has started a, an organization to work with--she calls it the High Tea Society [High Tea Society Inc.]. And they work with inner city girls, showing them that there's no alternative to the kind of thing that they're confronted with in communities. So I joined that in past year 2002, I think, and they have taken over the area and the home that the Baker's Dozen years ago. Those were a group of social workers here in Washington [D.C.] who had this home over on 4th Street, and they are occupying that to work with these girls as one of the, the activity houses.$$The Baker's Dozen?$$Huh? Baker's Dozen, yes. Most of those girls were social workers and they banded together and they worked for many, many years with inner city young women.$Tell me about school when you, were, were you excited to be able to start a career as a school teacher?$$Was I excited?$$Yeah.$$Oh, yeah, oh (laughter). Oh, when I, when I resigned from [the U.S. Department of] Labor and went--well, that summer, I got my mother [Cora Becton Jarmon] in my car and I drove around this horrible Hine [Hines Junior High School in Washington D.C.]. And when we (laughter), when we got around there to the front door, we saw all these young fellows. I guess about five or six of them in the vestibule of the school over there at 7th and Southeast [Washington, D.C.], shooting crap (laughter). And momma said, "Whoo, are you crazy, where are you going to teach?" I said, "Oh, yeah, they're, they're not school students, they're not students." I said, "They're just in front of the building doing what they're accustomed to doing." But I was really excited when I went in. I wasn't as confident and sure of myself at the beginning because I inherited a person that teaches program who had just left, whose position I had, you know, been put into. And he was a teacher of, of a business, and I wasn't a teacher of business, so I had to keep ahead of that. Well, that didn't happen, but maybe a year or so, one year, and I fulfilled that as best as I could, and I wasn't a bad teacher. And I, I was, being an older person, not just a young person put into that teaching position, I didn't have problems as some of the teachers had with discipline because, see, I was an older person. I'd been in government, and here I'd come as an older person into the classroom, and they respected that. And in many instances when they would bring students from Caesar Knowles [ph.] who problems students and put in my room, I didn't have any problem with them. And it ended up that I got a lot of them that I didn't, I shouldn't have had. I had too many of them, but it worked out well, for me and for them because I, I, I had the maturity to deal with them and let them know that life was much more than they were seeing right there at that time. And they could, they could make an impression and, and be fulfilled in whatever they chose to work at and, and actually be committed and, and dedicated to their, you know, their studies and that sort of thing.$$Okay. Now, now when did you, were you able to teach social studies and--$$Oh, yes, then I got my, my own program, English and social studies. Then later on, I enjoyed it because, and it was exciting, because I not only worked with them in the classroom, but I sponsored the Red Cross [The American Red Cross] group, the Charmette [ph.] Club. I had extra, I just took on extra stuff and worked with the students and they appreciated that and I see a lot of them now. They see me and know who I am, but they have to tell me, "Oh, I was in your class" and such and such thing. And even when I went down to jury duty, there were one or two down there--said, "Didn't you teach at Hine?" I said, "Yeah." She said, "I was in your class," and she had her little youngster along with her. And that, that's a rewarding kind of thing when you meet these students and they remember, you know, you and your relationship with them in the classroom. That's a rewarding thing about it all.